A bit backward to go forward??

[momof3chicks]

My 8 yo dd has been improving her skills alot. She is starting to skate more powerfully, without hunching over (she tended to bend over to get speed), her edges are better, her jumps are cleaner - her arms are much nicer, there is no cheating jumps, and her spins are much faster and the positions much better- forward and back, her skating looks under control more if that makes sense.

Well....they are better...when done alone.

Her program, well, not so much. I see glimmers, like some competitions she did the better faster spins, but then she missed her time (went over) and got a penalty- ended up 5th. Then another she tripped and fell during a most benign part of the program, placed, but she is definitely better overall (usually) than the winner that day.

Do you think perhaps trying to incorporate all these changes and improvements is just proving challening put all together. She is no test FS.

[Kim to the Max]

My 8 yo dd has been improving her skills alot. She is starting to skate more powerfully, without hunching over (she tended to bend over to get speed), her edges are better, her jumps are cleaner - her arms are much nicer, there is no cheating jumps, and her spins are much faster and the positions much better- forward and back, her skating looks under control more if that makes sense.

Well....they are better...when done alone.

Her program, well, not so much. I see glimmers, like some competitions she did the better faster spins, but then she missed her time (went over) and got a penalty- ended up 5th. Then another she tripped and fell during a most benign part of the program, placed, but she is definitely better overall (usually) than the winner that day.

Do you think perhaps trying to incorporate all these changes and improvements is just proving challening put all together. She is no test FS.

Improving skills individually is very important. Doing skills in a program is just tough over all...and it takes practice. For myself, I can do a pretty good layback on it's own, but at times when I do my program it just doesn't work...part of that is me rushing things to keep up with the music while when just practicing, I can take all the time I want and if things do not feel right, I can try again...just have her keep practicing! :)

[momof3chicks]

Improving skills individually is very important. Doing skills in a program is just tough over all...and it takes practice. For myself, I can do a pretty good layback on it's own, but at times when I do my program it just doesn't work...part of that is me rushing things to keep up with the music while when just practicing, I can take all the time I want and if things do not feel right, I can try again...just have her keep practicing! :)

That definitely seems to be part of it, therfore, even though she got the penalty at that competition- she got praise from her coaches for doing what she was asked.

[CoachPA]

Something to consider is to have her works her elements individually then incoorporate them into the program by skating sections of her program to the music. For instance, have her practice a section of the music that includes perhaps two or three of her elements, like a 0:15 chunk.

Sometimes when kids skate their program, they become so focused on staying on time or the choreography etc. that they will let the technical part go out the window. They become so overwhelmed with having to skate an entire program that that becomes the main focus. Skating elements individually or even practicing them in the program without the music is totally different that performing them well to the music.

[momof3chicks]

Something to consider is to have her works her elements individually then incoorporate them into the program by skating sections of her program to the music. For instance, have her practice a section of the music that includes perhaps two or three of her elements, like a 0:15 chunk.

Sometimes when kids skate their program, they become so focused on staying on time or the choreography etc. that they will let the technical part go out the window. They become so overwhelmed with having to skate an entire program that that becomes the main focus. Skating elements individually or even practicing them in the program without the music is totally different that performing them well to the music.

That is what her coach suggested as well- the little chunks, even without the music it may help.

[Tennisany1]

The other thing to remember is that she is 8 and coming 5th is nothing to sneeze at. The reality is that no one will remember a year from now how she placed and top placements at her level are absolutely no indication of how she will do when she gets to the higher levels (prenovice/intermediate and above.) If she is working hard in practice and improving her elements and her coaches are happy, don't worry about placements at competitions. They really don't mean much. If she is at all concerned, have her set realistic goals for herself for each competition that have nothing to do with placement. This will allow her to have some success that she can control.

[momof3chicks]

The other thing to remember is that she is 8 and coming 5th is nothing to sneeze at. The reality is that no one will remember a year from now how she placed and top placements at her level are absolutely no indication of how she will do when she gets to the higher levels (prenovice/intermediate and above.) If she is working hard in practice and improving her elements and her coaches are happy, don't worry about placements at competitions. They really don't mean much. If she is at all concerned, have her set realistic goals for herself for each competition that have nothing to do with placement. This will allow her to have some success that she can control.

That is a good point. For example, I noticed that the girls who won that day, did a very simple program. No fancy connecting moves, not particularly fast, just crossovers to the elements. AND most of the girls didn't even attempt a back spin of any sort. My dd had the most difficult connecting moves, the most difficult footwork sequence (one of the girls chastised her in the locker room for doing more than 2 spins- she was talking about my dd's twizzles in the footwork sequence). My dd also did camel, sit, back sit, back scratch, then foot change back to a 'decorative' spin. There was nothing like that otherwise.

Her coaches feel it is better preparation for her future than an easy program for a win.

[Schmeck]

That's always a decision that's hard to make - which is better, a clean program or a difficult program?

momof3chicks, I think you might want to evaluate your own response to your daughter's competitions though. You state that your daughter is better than all these other girls, but do you really know what that sounds like? Of course you should be proud of what your daughter has accomplished, but don't do it at the expense of other skaters. You state that your daughter was better (usually) overall than the winner that day - unless you know these other skaters, you can't make that comparison at all. Maybe they are fantastic too, and had a rough skate for them?

Figure skating is infamous for this, and it's one of the components that is keeping the sport from thriving.

[momof3chicks]

That's always a decision that's hard to make - which is better, a clean program or a difficult program?

momof3chicks, I think you might want to evaluate your own response to your daughter's competitions though. You state that your daughter is better than all these other girls, but do you really know what that sounds like? Of course you should be proud of what your daughter has accomplished, but don't do it at the expense of other skaters. You state that your daughter was better (usually) overall than the winner that day - unless you know these other skaters, you can't make that comparison at all. Maybe they are fantastic too, and had a rough skate for them?

Figure skating is infamous for this, and it's one of the components that is keeping the sport from thriving.


That was not clear, I was talking about 2 different times, one was a time where she has skated with these same girls numerous times. The others, of course, you are right I don't know, but some I do-- seeing them daily.

Edited to add, it isn't really whether she wins, but it is hard to gauge how she is otherwise doing -- I do want to make sure she is moving forward appropriately for the price of coaching etc.

[Tennisany1]

... it isn't really whether she wins, but it is hard to gauge how she is otherwise doing -- I do want to make sure she is moving forward appropriately for the price of coaching etc.

IMHO you really shouldn't use winning as a gauge of whether or not she is progressing. There are just too many things your daughter has no control over. A judge could be making notes when your dd does her best spin. She could skate early in a big group and the judges, who have been sitting in the cold for hours, forget about her when the last couple of kids skate. This is not to say that the judges don't ever get it right, just that results do not always indicate progress or lack thereof.

The other thing to remember is that if you are focussed on winning your daughter will end up spending more time at a level rather than testing up because she will not want to test up until she can win. While this is a strategy used by many coaches, I think it is hard on kids who always win or place at the early levels. As they move up there is more and more pressure to make sure they are never last. Coming last early on really frees kids to skate all out without worrying. They realize that the world won't end if they don't win and it also helps them work hard when they're having a bad day. There are so many life lessons kids can learn through skating. Very few if any of our kids will even make it to Nationals let alone Worlds, so learning stuff that helps with other parts of their lives is really important.

My advice is to let your daughter know that skating well and reaching her own goals is what she should focus on. Winning is great and it sure beats not winning, but just as many people come last as first and most people are somewhere in the middle so just relax and enjoy the competitions.

[Schmeck]

That was not clear, I was talking about 2 different times, one was a time where she has skated with these same girls numerous times. The others, of course, you are right I don't know, but some I do-- seeing them daily.

Edited to add, it isn't really whether she wins, but it is hard to gauge how she is otherwise doing -- I do want to make sure she is moving forward appropriately for the price of coaching etc.

Even if you see the skaters your daughter competes against on a daily basis, and you think your daughter skates much better than they do, the only time it counts is when she is competing, and you have pointed out yourself that your daughter didn't skate to her potential. Putting the other skaters' abilities and programs down is not going to make your daughter a better skater during competitions. If you disagree with how your daughter is placing at a competition, question your coaches - maybe it's time to get new ones? But don't take out your frustration on a bunch of 8 year olds who are trying their best. I've competed before, and it isn't easy to get out there all alone.

Also, it still all comes back to who skates clean and well at a competition, as judges don't like to reward sloppy (although more difficult) components. USFSA is commited to IJS for scoring, and even the 6.0 competitions are being judged by judges trained/training for IJS. They're going into the comps with that GOE frame of mind.

[momof3chicks]

IMHO you really shouldn't use winning as a gauge of whether or not she is progressing. There are just too many things your daughter has no control over. A judge could be making notes when your dd does her best spin. She could skate early in a big group and the judges, who have been sitting in the cold for hours, forget about her when the last couple of kids skate. This is not to say that the judges don't ever get it right, just that results do not always indicate progress or lack thereof.

The other thing to remember is that if you are focussed on winning your daughter will end up spending more time at a level rather than testing up because she will not want to test up until she can win. While this is a strategy used by many coaches, I think it is hard on kids who always win or place at the early levels. As they move up there is more and more pressure to make sure they are never last. Coming last early on really frees kids to skate all out without worrying. They realize that the world won't end if they don't win and it also helps them work hard when they're having a bad day. There are so many life lessons kids can learn through skating. Very few if any of our kids will even make it to Nationals let alone Worlds, so learning stuff that helps with other parts of their lives is really important.

My advice is to let your daughter know that skating well and reaching her own goals is what she should focus on. Winning is great and it sure beats not winning, but just as many people come last as first and most people are somewhere in the middle so just relax and enjoy the competitions.

No worries! I don't disagree with you at all. But I can see that the new skills she is mastering, are not quite making it in her program as of yet. She is actually extremely good about the competitions, she is certainly pleased when she places or even wins the whole thing, but is equally ok when it doesn't happen.

I do like to see her be able to put forth her best, and she seems to be struggling with showing her best right now in her program.

[momof3chicks]

Even if you see the skaters your daughter competes against on a daily basis, and you think your daughter skates much better than they do, the only time it counts is when she is competing, and you have pointed out yourself that your daughter didn't skate to her potential. Putting the other skaters' abilities and programs down is not going to make your daughter a better skater during competitions. If you disagree with how your daughter is placing at a competition, question your coaches - maybe it's time to get new ones? But don't take out your frustration on a bunch of 8 year olds who are trying their best. I've competed before, and it isn't easy to get out there all alone.

Also, it still all comes back to who skates clean and well at a competition, as judges don't like to reward sloppy (although more difficult) components. USFSA is commited to IJS for scoring, and even the 6.0 competitions are being judged by judges trained/training for IJS. They're going into the comps with that GOE frame of mind.

Clearly you misunderstand. I don't disagree with her placing, I am trying to figure out what counts, how the judging works (re: difficulty). I am not frustrated at a bunch of 8 year olds. I am simply trying to explain that her progress on her elements is not yet showing in her program- and whether that is common or not when coaches are trying to get a child to change of alot of things.

[CoachPA]

Clearly you misunderstand. I don't disagree with her placing, I am trying to figure out what counts, how the judging works (re: difficulty). I am not frustrated at a bunch of 8 year olds. I am simply trying to explain that her progress on her elements is not yet showing in her program- and whether that is common or not when coaches are trying to get a child to change of alot of things.

I'd say this is pretty common, at least in some of the skaters I work with or see on a regular basis.

Perhaps this is why some coaches do not recommend putting in elements that a child is still practicing (not necessarily mastering) in a competitive program. Incoorporating these changes or newly learned or refined elements in a competitive setting, which often triggers some anxiety, can cause a skater to forget proper technique. Remember, muscle memory takes some time to develop, and if your daughter has recently made these changes or is still adjusting to them, her muscle memory may abandon her.

From what you've said about your daughter, she understands the changes her coach is making; however, she is likely still learning about why these changes are being made, the effects they have, and how to use her body and movement in order to produce a desired result. For instance, she's discovering that doing X leads to Y and using her coach's feedback to correct technical errors and see what actions produce success versus failure.

Once she has gone through and made the necessary mistakes, etc., she will evenutally be automatically able to execute the jump or whatever aspect of her program she attempts. Until she has mastered these changes, however, and can show some indication of self-knowledge about what she is doing wrong or right (proof that the learning has been internalized), whatever she is struggling with will only be magnified in a competitive atmosphere.

[momof3chicks]

I'd say this is pretty common, at least in some of the skaters I work with or see on a regular basis.

Perhaps this is why some coaches do not recommend putting in elements that a child is still practicing (not necessarily mastering) in a competitive program. Incoorporating these changes or newly learned or refined elements in a competitive setting, which often triggers some anxiety, can cause a skater to forget proper technique. Remember, muscle memory takes some time to develop, and if your daughter has recently made these changes or is still adjusting to them, her muscle memory may abandon her.

From what you've said about your daughter, she understands the changes her coach is making; however, she is likely still learning about why these changes are being made, the effects they have, and how to use her body and movement in order to produce a desired result. For instance, she's discovering that doing X leads to Y and using her coach's feedback to correct technical errors and see what actions produce success versus failure.

Once she has gone through and made the necessary mistakes, etc., she will evenutally be automatically able to execute the jump or whatever aspect of her program she attempts. Until she has mastered these changes, however, and can show some indication of self-knowledge about what she is doing wrong or right (proof that the learning has been internalized), whatever she is struggling with will only be magnified in a competitive atmosphere.

Thanks for the feedback. She isn't really doing anything new in the program. I think she is just trying to do it cleaner as she has been taught. But sometimes she gets only part of it right on a given day. They are correctly little things like, shoulder position in crossovers, increasing spin speed and position, fixing hand and arm positions in jumps/landings.

So you are correct I think in that muscle memory hasn't set in yet for those corrections. When she is doing for example a lutz, toe loop, loop in practice, her hand and body position is awesome, but in the program, some days, by the loop, the old flailing hands come back- LOL. And when she is trying to increase her spin speed, sometimes that causes a bobble as like you said, she isn't perfect at it yet.

All in all it sounds like this slight regression is probably pretty normal.

[momsk8er]

I highly recommend studying the chart found here: http://http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/FreeSkatingPerformanceChart.html

It details all the factors that make a good competitor. What you can tell from this chart is that your daughter and her coach can control some of these factors, but not all of them. The better a skater gets at controlling more factors, the better the skater becomes. But there are so many things that can affect performace. Because of this, it just doesn't make sense to try to gauge progress by competitive results. You will see progress over several years, but if your skater is moving up levels at the right pace, you shouldn't really worry about how she does in competitions. At the lower levels competitions are mainly for getting better at the mental aspects of competing.

You might also want to look at this wise coach's ideas about progress http://http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/RelativeImportanceOfTrainingPhases.html

[momof3chicks]

I highly recommend studying the chart found here: http://http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/FreeSkatingPerformanceChart.html

It details all the factors that make a good competitor. What you can tell from this chart is that your daughter and her coach can control some of these factors, but not all of them. The better a skater gets at controlling more factors, the better the skater becomes. But there are so many things that can affect performace. Because of this, it just doesn't make sense to try to gauge progress by competitive results. You will see progress over several years, but if your skater is moving up levels at the right pace, you shouldn't really worry about how she does in competitions. At the lower levels competitions are mainly for getting better at the mental aspects of competing.

You might also want to look at this wise coach's ideas about progress http://http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/RelativeImportanceOfTrainingPhases.html

Thanks, what you say is helpful. I can see progress in many areas, even in the program, so I guess like you say, we should look at that rather than placings. I don't think her coaches at this level are concerned about that as much as her long term development as they see some talent and ability there and she is young. I'd love to look at those links, but they aren't working.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Thanks, what you say is helpful. I can see progress in many areas, even in the program, so I guess like you say, we should look at that rather than placings. I don't think her coaches at this level are concerned about that as much as her long term development as they see some talent and ability there and she is young. I'd love to look at those links, but they aren't working.

The links have an extra http://www.com at the beginning. Just take that part out in your address bar to see them once the error
Message comes up - at least until they are edited

[twokidsskatemom]

Imo It still comes back to... she is 8 years old.Its hard and alot to expect an 8 year old to remember every detail.Its hard to remember this arm goes here, this foot does that.Its hard for teens and adults to remember, its no more easier for an 8 year old. This is said from a mom that has an 8 and 9 year old who have been skating most of their lives.Its a live long thing, this skating. It takes along time and parents and skaters get discouraged.They all get better but might take a year or two or three.
I am interested, why you/coaches think she has talent? I dont know her, but I am interested in what factors were used?

[momof3chicks]

Imo It still comes back to... she is 8 years old.Its hard and alot to expect an 8 year old to remember every detail.Its hard to remember this arm goes here, this foot does that.Its hard for teens and adults to remember, its no more easier for an 8 year old. This is said from a mom that has an 8 and 9 year old who have been skating most of their lives.Its a live long thing, this skating. It takes along time and parents and skaters get discouraged.They all get better but might take a year or two or three.
I am interested, why you/coaches think she has talent? I dont know her, but I am interested in what factors were used?

Thanks, and you are right. And I don't know how old the girls she competes against are- it is a bit misleading because if they are as tall as her, they are probably older than her- on her synchro team, she is the same height as the other girls, although most of them are 2 years or more older than she.

They didn't really say why they thought she had talent, just that her newer coach, until I told him, didn't realize how young she was- she is very strong for her age and skates with strength like many kids older than her. He said with some additional discipline and structure, he felt she could do very well. She also recently did a session with a guy who does slo mo video of jumps, and he had very little to criticize on her singles, and moved onto her axel (which she cannot consistenly land as of yet). He wasn't particularly worried about the sometimes flailing arms (which drive me nuts)- he felt it was cosmetic and not really affecting her body position etc.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Sorry, was on my phone on the last post. Here are the edited links from above.

http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/FreeSkatingPerformanceChart.html

http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/RelativeImportanceOfTrainingPhases.html

Honestly, it sounds like your DDs coaches have a good plan in mind. If you aren't seeing results like you feel you should be, talk to them about it and just see if you agree what they have to say. What is important to remember is that there are multiple coaching philosophies. In some cases, it really is all about winning and they will hold kids back or make an easy program with the sole purpose of getting a gold medal, but these kids later may have trouble when they start losing. Other coaches look long term and immediate gratification isn't as important as preparing the child mentally and physically for down the road. AS long as your DD is comfortable with the way she is being coached, is still having fun, and is learning winning isn't everything then it sounds like a good situation.

[momof3chicks]

Sorry, was on my phone on the last post. Here are the edited links from above.

http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/FreeSkatingPerformanceChart.html

http://www.skatingaheadofthecurve.com/RelativeImportanceOfTrainingPhases.html

Honestly, it sounds like your DDs coaches have a good plan in mind. ............. Other coaches look long term and immediate gratification isn't as important as preparing the child mentally and physically for down the road. AS long as your DD is comfortable with the way she is being coached, is still having fun, and is learning winning isn't everything then it sounds like a good situation.

Thanks, I do agree with the long term plan, we also agreed that we wouldn't push her up overly fast into higher levels since she is young and has time. She is comfortable with her progress, I am happy she doesn't get too upset when she doesn't win. Of course she is happy when she does, but takes it in stride either way.