Campbell's Discussion - Ladies

[Aaron W]

The ordinals were all over the place in the ladies event. It really was a hit and miss event. You'd see good moments in the ladies programs and then some not so good moments.

Had I been a judge, I may very well have placed AP McDonough first. Six triples, including two 3lutzs and two 3flips. On top of that she had wonderful spins and the program was nicely paced. 5.7/5.8

Second I'd give to Michelle Kwan. Despite the fluky doubled lutz at the beginning and the doubled toe loop at the end, it seemed like a nicely controled program. Paced well with 4 triple jumps and the spins weren't off like Sasha's were. 5.6/5.7

Third I'd give to Sasha who also had four triple jumps including a sequence of a 3toe - 1/2 loop - 3salchow, but also had a fall, a majorly messed up final combination spin, and the program seemed as if a little more speed would hep it (e.g. - the footwork sequence which was nice compared to what she's done in the past, but would have had more effect had it had more speed). 5.5/5.7

Sarah Hughes only landed 3 triple jumps, the most difficult being a 3loop out of a spiral. With Volchkova landing both a clean 3lutz and 3flip, I think a case *could* be made for Volchkova placing ahead of Sarah. I still think Volchkova's spins are below what they should be and her programs are still too "empty." If she tried to skate a program similar to what Sarah skated, Viktoria might have trouble getting more than three triple jumps landed. I probably would have scored it: Hughes: 5.3/5.7 and Volchkova: 5.5/5.5.

[adrianchew]

Whoa! 8O

Ok - if people's gonna say someone was robbed, please tell us why too! :P

Volchkova - that was nice for her. Its not an amazing program but a pretty good skate overall. I would almost have had her ahead of Sarah in this event.

I have to hand it to Ann Patrice for skating almost perfectly, and I would have given it to her. Let's hope she remains consistent throughout the season. Anyone knows which combo AP is going to go for (triple/triple)? 3Z/3T?

Sasha's program - there, now you have seen it! It looks like she's planning the triple lutz/triple toe, since that's how the program is setup right now, together with the 3-toe/half-loop/3-sal... 4 triples in combos. Risky yes, but there's nothing conservative about her program - non stop action (no posing/rest stops)... and the ina bauer into short entry 3-lutz as the last jump. The mistake of the final combination spin I guess was pretty costly - I'd have her first if it wasn't for that, but its a toss up between her and Michelle for 2nd IMO. Plus she didn't do the 1st 3Z combo, so that's actually going to be a deduction for two triple attempts I believe (extra element, since no combo).

Sarah's program - I found that it had a bit too much posing at the beginning, and pauses in the middle. Not bad considering its a pretty new program though. Her triples weren't too impressive, and she had trouble on them... the 3-flip was surely underrotated/2-footed. Just the lack of jump content alone - almost makes me think she should have been in 5th, behind Volchkova. I only saw 1 lutz attempt which I believe she singled... and given the rest of the jumps, is she planning for two 3/3 combos as well? Probably 3S/3T and 3L/3S.

Michelle's program - I found it interesting that she's now doing her own chereography with input from various people. The program didn't look as rough as I had expected it to be, it was pretty nice, had some neat sections, though overall its a very Michelle-like program, not really ground-breaking. She landed some nice triples, and it was overall neatly presented, so like I said it was close IMO and she should have been in 2nd or 3rd overall (I'd still have AP 1st).

[adrianchew]

Aaron - I'm nodding in agreement as you said just what I said. :D

The backsit mistake was costly for Sasha, and Sarah's program was so lacking in content that Volchkova could have beaten her even.

[Ellyn]

My thoughts/placements are similar to Aaron's.

It's early in the season and all of those performances were very beatable; we'll have to see who can step it up when the real competitions start to really count.

Kwan 5.4/5.7
four triples but flip was shaky and salchow might have been a little underrotated; generally good ice coverage and detail with body positions in relation to music, but low energy compared to what we'd expect later in the season with more mileage on the program

McDonough 5.5/5.6
six triples but flip and salchow looked cheated; good ice coverage on spirals, fairly simple positions; best spins of the event IMO, though not as fast as when she was smaller

Cohen 5.4/5.6
five triples (touchdown on flip?); not much going on between the elements except posing/gliding on two feet; was that supposed to be two separate spins at the end? I hope so, because otherwise I only count three spins in the program; one of the best 2axels I've seen from her and the 3-3 sequence was well done

Volchkova 5.5/5.4
four clean triples plus partial credit for two more with errors; no other notable elements -- how's her basic stroking/ice coverage? (Peggy seemed to like it)

Hughes 5.3/5.5
Planning 3-3 combos (I assume) and then not going for them, combined with doubling the lutz and the incomplete flip, left her with too little jump content; it looks like a new program, to be skated with more commitment later in the season we hope; more in-between content (traveling threes, etc., instead of just crossovers) than anyone else, which may have helped to hold her up, and I expect her ice coverage was better than Cohen and McDonough

[rack]

I wouldn't have had Michelle in fifth (as one of judges did), but I would have had Ann Patrice in first. Her program seemed the most complete.

Sasha's program looked a lot better to me than it had at S S & S (Madison Square Garden), and I can see how it can end up being quite wonderful (she's still my favorite for winning Nationals this year).

Sarah's program reminded me of Sasha's at S S & S- the jumps were clearly not yet in place. I think it has an enormous amount of potential- there's a lot of stuff going on (one person's posing is another person's lot of stuff going on!).

I'm sorry Irina wasn't there (and was amused when Michelle was called World Champion). It looks to be a fascinating season.

By the way, I counted, and Sarah was referred to as Olympic Champion 112 times, averaging a little under one such reference per minute.:lol:

[sk8rzmom]

I would have flip-flopped Sarah and Sasha. Sasha's program already shows some polish, and she went for more triples than Sarah. I still thinkSarah's positions and posture are not elite class, and she needs help with those elements to hold off kids like AP and Sasha. Overall, a much better performance byu the ladies than the men.

[Tigger]

Well....Since the two of you have both so nicely said what I was going to mention, I guess that leaves me w/some of the highlights....LOL!!! :)

Okay...

Viktoria...Who was *that*!?! I could see a definite improvement w/her skating and I'm not just talking about the jumps. She wasn't rushing her program like I've seen her do in the past and there were some lovely moments during it where you could see her trying to show some emotion. That's been missing in the past and was wonderful to see. My only true complaint about her skate were the music cuts. I really thought whomever did it for her butchered that piece of music and has made it sound very choppy, but that's my only beef w/this program.

Sasha...Oh my heavens!! I think she just shut up all the detractors who said the move to Tarasova was a bad thing. That footwork sequence...WOW!! Sorry for shouting, but I was sitting there w/my mouth hitting the floor when she did it. What a wonderful sequence. All that's keeping her moving from a very good skater to an amazing skater are her lapses of concentration, but that will come to an end w/Tarasova I think. I loved this program and can't wait to see it get even better as the season moves along.

Ann Patrice...Wow!! That's all you can say and I'm going to leave it at that. I love it when a skater whom I've heard hyped to the heavens deserves all that's said about her/him. Looking forward to seeing her develop over the next few years.

Sarah...She gave me chills. I really do love the program and when she gets the kinks worked out, will be a great program for her. I do have to admit, I hate all the posing she does in it and wish she'd move away from that.

Michelle...Nicely done program. Not bad at all for a first time choreographed program by herself. Nothing ground breaking as Adrian has said, but at the same time it was wonderful to see a happy Michelle on the ice. We haven't seen that in quite awhile. I liked it.

I was looking forward to seeing Jen for the first time this year, but.....

:evil: God forbid they show everyone at the competition. :(

[NorthernLite]

Some nice balanced comments here. I think everyone is appreciating that this was was an opportunity to see interesting works in progress by some quite talented young women.

Speaking of chills -- I haven't ever been a huge Sasha fan in the past but I got into this program. Somewhat Kwanesque, a little Yagudinish. ;) I'll have to see how I feel upon 2nd viewing but she and Sarah were my favorite performances. (However, I'm not saying I would have place them higher.)

I'm a fan of Sarah's, but even putting that aside, I really did like this program and see the potential down the raod. The choreography, especially in the first half, was done with a new mature presence IMHO. (LOL Rack at your "One person's posing is another person's lot of stuff going on.") I don't like that costume though (it was her SP costume part of last year, right?).

I didn't think Michelle had a lot of "choreo" in her program. But she did seem to be enjoying herself and happy to be out there again.

VV has excellent jumping skills but is still lagging in other areas for me.

Nice to see such a big, genuine smile from AP at the end. There's been times when you've wondered if her head and/or heart were totally into this.

Think of how well AP did, and then remember that she was 6th! at 02 Nats. Angela and Jenny (and Irina and Fumie) were not even at this comp. Wow.

[donnamarie]

I thought Victoria's program was incredibly slow though. Which makes it much less difficult than Sarah's, despite the jump content. I was very bored during VV's skating. Isn't it easier to look graceful and to land jumps when you are skating really slow?

You can really see Tarasova's input with Sasha ... some great moments there ... and I like Sarah's program too, she is relaxed and poised, and still has that joyousness and freedom ... I can't wait to see these two programs in a few weeks.

I really don't know how I would have placed the women tonight. It seemed more of a warm-up for them and not a real competition. (Better than the men's though!)

[Ellyn]

I don't think Viktoria was skating slowly in the sense of not covering much ice per second. Someone who was there would have to tell us how they compared. On the other hand, she was doing a lot less in terms of skating content than Sarah was -- less body movement per second, so maybe that's what you're interpreting as "slow"?

[jcspkbfan]

This wasn't the first time Michelle's choreographed one of her own programs--she also self-choreographed her Winter exhibition back in 1996/97 (still one of my favorite programs of hers ever). I wonder who helped her choreograph this one (her new coach, maybe??) I'm not sure how well it would work as a competitive program (the music seemed a little slow in parts to me), but it's definitely a lovely exhibition number.

Sasha's music sounded like the same cut S&P used for their "Orchid" program last year...but I agree she's improved a lot since last season!

I was impressed not only by the quality of skating among the ladies in general, but also by the fact all of them used new programs at this event! I must admit I was a little disappointed to see so many of the men recycle old programs...but not too disappointed since the new skating season has now officially begun! :)

BTW, there's a little hope for those of you upset about Jennifer Robinson getting chacked--CBC has broadcasted some (but not all) of these USFSA "fluff" events in the past with no chacking, so there's a good chance Jennifer and Matt will be included if CBC eventually shows this one!

[Clay]

I think Michelle has gone back and re-choreographed parts of her programs on many occasions and we just don't know it. 2001 Nationals & Worlds comes to mind. Many of the steps look familar to me this time around.
I agree that Sarah wins the day on connecting moves. I love to see that.

Clay

[kwanlover]

I loved Sasha's music and this program has the potential to be the one to watch this year for me. She is lovely, and she has such a presence on the ice. I agree with whoever mentioned her footwork!! I loved it! And also, being a mom of a teenager, I loved with TT fixed Sasha's necklace, so the correct side was showing! That was an affectionate gesture, and it made me feel good about the pairing of these two. I think Sasha's costume was lovely too. I felt bad for her in the sitspin, but I loved how she fought to get back into the program. I think this program will be the one others try to beat.

AP..she is gorgeous, and so was her costume. I think she has such great talent, but she seems reserved to me....can't describe it...sort of reminds me on Angela N sometimes, totally focused on the elements, and not letting us 'in'. She has such a beauty on the ice, when she can move me, and make me feel I am part of her story, I think she will be one terrific skater. She really has so much potential.

Sarah...I didn't care for this music...don't know why....I also like this dress, and I know I have read on other forums that people don't like it, but I think it is pretty, and different. Sarah really had some great connecting moves, and that really was nice to see....she will get her jumps back, I am sure of that.

Michelle's music really was lovely. I love that music! I wish she had chosen a different dress. But, I see a lot of potential in this program, once she tinkers with it. I want to see more spins, more footwork, including circular footwork, and more playing with the character. I want to see her in like she was in Romanza....that is still one of my favorite programs from her....this music brought it all back, how much she was into the character for that music...I hope she can get into character with this program..it really can be a winner also.

Great ladies skating today. I enjoyed myself....I am SO glad it is skating season again!!! :D

[Arsenette]

I just got online.. I'm still recooping from hospital.. :roll: DANG IT!!! I missed it!! Can anyone send me a copy via mail? Please PM me!!

[Mayra]

I loved AP's program! :) Also liked that she had more expression in her face(more smiles) than in previous outings where she was pretty much expressionless.

Apart from Yagudin's footwork and the addition of the change edge spiral, Sasha's program looked very similar to last year's LP IMO. Ditto MK. Enjoyed both though. Sasha's in particular was beautiful and I really liked MK's music.

[Alexeiskate]

I was glad that Michelle won and that she seemed happy. I thought Michelle program contained too many parts from past choreographies thrown together. If she wants to be competitive at Nationals, I think she'll need to get a real choreographer and participate in at least one grand prix type of competition before Nationals. I really liked the yellow dress.


AP was good and deserved at least 2nd place. I thought her skating was still a little bit too careful; it was like she was thinking about every move. If she can learn to be more free and increase her speed, she'll be sensational. I was slightly disappointed with her spins. I have read about her superb spinning ability, but her spins weren't any faster than the other ladies. She also has a weak 2axel take-off technique that could give her trouble as she gets older.

Sashsa has some lovely moments, but I would lose that ending footwork sequence down the ice. It was too derivative of a Yagudin's footwork. Sashsa needs something of her own. It was amazing that she didn't fall on that last catch leg spin, because her spinning blade was really wobbly.

I did not like Sarah's program at all at this point. It had too many extraneous arm movements, and I found the music to be nondescript. But I'm sure that Sarah and Robin will continue to tweak the program throughout the season.

VV looked better than last season. Some really nice triples. I thought the choreography was too plain though, with too much straight forward stroking between the jumps, and I'm not sure if trying to turn VV into a lyrical, balletic skater is a good fit for her.

[cienicsk8]

I think AP had great expression! I could not be more thrilled for her!
She really won me over when I saw her skate live at Nationals.
So happy for her!
Sarah usually doesn't start out all that great and neither does Sasha. Can't wait to see what these programs look like in a month or two!
I think it's a good thing that Michelle choreographed her own program......she really seemed to be enjoying herself. It looked like she genuinely was digging what she was doing out there, and I like that from her.
And having that hottie coach can't be too much of a bummer;)
Sasha is my very favorite and I love her new program. When she settles in...I can't wait to see it then!!!!
I am a big Vika fan, and it's great to see her come back strong after how she ended last season.
This fluffy comp really doesn't mean a whole lot in the long run, but it sure was great to see these gals coming out swingin' again!!!!

[Dustin]

Just finished watching on TV, some things looked different than they did live last night.

1. McDonough 5.8/5.8 - Great skate for her. Loved the dress and program. She looked faster and her jumps looked higher than what I saw on T.V.
2. Cohen 5.6/5.9 - Amazing program - best choreographed here by far. The footwork was spectacular, so what if it looked like Alexei's? They have the same coach and that coach made the footwork for both. The dress *was* purple, not blue. Major improvement on speed and edges than what I saw at COI.
3. Kwan 5.7/5.7 - Nothing new to me, looked like the same Michelle, no difference. The program looked like it was still being heavily worked on to me. I think an orange and red dress may have fit it better.
4. Volchkova 5.5/5.6 - Didnt seem boring. Seemed solid and strong and very fast (which didnt show on TV).
5. Hughes 5.2/5.3 - Boring program, glaring cheats and technical errors live. Spiral was extremely short, only a few seconds and covered 1/4 of the small middle circle area.
6. Robinson 5.0/5.1 - Horribly boring program. She seems very polished (my first time ever seeing her live) and very beautiful skater.

[lisabelle]

arsenette, i dont know if you will see this intime but it's being shown from 12-2 AM in the philly area b/c of some parade...

[marlyn]

I have to agree with all of you who said that Sasha's was the program to watch this season...despite the errors. She seemed very energetic and I think has improved since last year in her presentation.
Michelle's program may have been "typical Michelle", but I loved it. She had so much joy on her face.
Ann Patrice was beautiful, and I think she will give them a run for their money at nationals.....maybe a podium spot??
Sarah, well, I didn't like it. She seemed slow to me and un polished, but then she just got back on the ice to prepare a couple of weeks ago. So, we will see how the season unfolds.
Jennifer was ...........oh yeah, I didn't get to see her, so i don't know.:roll:
So glad to be getting this season started!!!!! It will be a good one!

[NiceIce]

Sasha...the most interesting and innovative program with footwork that was complex and musically dynamic.
AP...very small jumps! very little musical interpretation, but smooth and steady skating technique.
Michelle...a slightly more freespirited program than usual, which was a nice but small change.
VV...great triple lutz...zero connection to the audience/music
Sarah...good beginning but as program developed she resorted back to her old turtlehead posture, but good possibilites with this music

Men...Plushenko needs, really badly, a total look overhaul. I felt I was watching a program/skater from the 70's. The little bob haircut with bangs has got to go. I felt the whole program and costume was an uncreative regression . He overdid the expression to the point of hitting us with a sledgehammer of sterotypical "Carmen" moves. Sad waste of talent

[purplecat]

I think it was very close with all five ladies and could have gone any number of ways...hence the disagreement among the judges. So I don't think anyone was robbed. I would've had it this way if I had judged though (AP, Sasha, Michelle, Sarah, Viktoria).

Loved Sasha's program and she skated much better than I thought (having read spoilers). The dress is a bit simple, but nice.

Liked Ann Patrice's program, but the best thing was that she looked relaxed and actually smiled during the program...that smile was her best improvement from past years! I like the idea of her dress, but lose some of the sequins please!

Michelle's program was okay. I felt like it wasn't done yet though and I hated the yellow dress! It's a program with potential...I like the music.

Sarah's choreography has too many arm movements and needs to be a little more simplified. The music I can't even remember what it was like, so I guess that's not too good. But it's early...it can grow on me!

Viktoria's music was too choppy. But I liked when she was skating to Air on a G String. The Four Seasons section though made her look like she couldn't keep up.

Oh how nice to have skating to comment on again! :)

[Azam356]

I agree with Dustin as to placings and the reasons why.
I thought Ann-Patrice and Sasha were both wonderful. You lost yourself in the program and were dissappointed when they ended They both had beautiful dresses. Ann-Patrice had the jumps so I would have placed her over sasha
But even with the flaws sasha had her program was interesting ,the footwork wonderful and even if she messed up the spins at the end who else even attempted a spin with their leg parallel to their body

I also thought sara's program boring .maybe it will get better with time and I know people will get mad at me but I dont think she has the natural grace of any of the other girls and I think this program with too many arm movements and posing accentuated the lack of grace. You can teach the movements and she did them but the balletic grace is just within the person and she doesnt have that and this program brought this out.

Now Michelle. I like Michelle I am a fan but the programs are almost getting ridiculous They all look the same to begin with. Her arm movments seem to have no purpose and dont really add anything to the program and compare her footwork to Sasha--- enough said there. I would so like to see her skate a new type of program I think she could do it but her programs now are all so ho-hum
well that is my two cents
I hope the judging stays fair this season because it sure will be an interesting one with the ladies

[Spinner]

Originally posted by Alexeiskate
Sasha has some lovely moments, but I would lose that ending footwork sequence down the ice. It was too derivative of a Yagudin's footwork. Sashsa needs something of her own.

I'd have to agree here. While I realize this type of music/choreography was a change/stretch for her, all I could think of when she was performing her footwork was how much it reminded me of Yagudin's. Overall I'd have to agree with the rankings as they stand. Still pondering though, if those judges were under the influence (or something :roll: ) when they watched MK's program. What was up with those ordinals?

[Badams]

I think that all the ladies had an impressive start to the season...mistakes and all! i can't wait to see how the programs progress, as they always do. i'm sure that michelle will make major changes to hers. hasn't she only been at it for about 2-3 weeks now? and she seems happy with her new coach. sasha's program will be great to watch once she perfects it. sarah's program was ok. not my favorite one, but sort of typical sarah. and ann patrice was such a nice surprise! i think she shocked herself! nationals will be really exciting this season!

[jss]

Ok I probably should start my own thread but I don't understand the criticism that Michelle's programs are the same. The music is different that what she has used in the last couple of seasons and some of the movements seems to have short, crisp moves to them. Yes Michelle has a style and her programs are all similar, but so is everyone elses. How is Sarah's program that different from the one she skated last year? The music is different yes but what else? The same can be said with Sasha. Big dramatic number with big expressive movements. I could go on. Also if you want to see Michelle do a different style than what would you suggest? Also if you listen to the music her arm movements do match the music, some of them were a little off of the music but it is the first time she performed the program. Also I agree with Badams that the program will probably look different later on. Ok having said all of that...

I really liked all of the programs tonight.

Viktoria really seemed to have improved especially at the beginning of the program. Normally she is, like Dick would say, a reason to go get something to eat but today she was improved.

Ann Patrice was very good. Nice jumps. Style and posture were great, but don't know if she was really feeling the music. However it is early season so that is absolutely forgivable.

Sasha-I agree with everyone that this is probably the program to watch this season. Footwork was good.

Sarah-Nice program. Lacked excitement to me, but I'm sure if you add seven triple jumps the performance becomes plenty exciting. Oh and I have to comment about this sorry. My problem with Sarah is the problem I have always had. It is her look on the ice. I guess it is posture but I don't know for sure. She just looks unelegant(is that even a word?LOL) I love her jumps and can't wait to see her 3/3s again, but I think for her to become a GREAT skater she has to fix her major problem(or it least it is major in my eyes).

Michelle-liked the program. Like I said above I think it will be different when we see it again. The footwork section was nice and I think will be great when she get more familiar with it and adds speed.

I can't wait until Nationals. CAUSE I HAVE TICKETS!!! I really hope Michelle goes to Nationals that would just be awsome. Also since Michelle isn't planning on doing in GP events is there anything else for her to do to test new material? I would really like to see a new short program.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Well, everyone has given great analysis - so I'll just give my reaction

Sasha is clearly THE class act by far - I'm not bothered by the mistakes on the spins (doubt those will ever happen again) and I'm not going to fritz out over a fall either. The way she moves totally does it for me. Unfortunately it is obvious that she is going to have to get her marks the Rudy Galindo way i.e., don't give any excuse not to give it to her. I would have had her third or fourth.

AP - really came through - I think she shows tremendous potential and I like her carriage, line and musicality. Would have had her first no question

Volchokova - much improved - she was going for more consistancy and I think she achieved that. There was more ease in her skating - real shame she blew the one lutz which is her best jump. Would have had her third or fourth

Hughes - she unquestionably does some verrrrry nice elements, but I just don't like her style. I guess I would have had her second, but grudgingly

Kwan - I obviously didn't see this program like some did. I was SHOCKED by her win. I would have had her fifth solidly. She didn't do much, the choreography was numbingly simple stroke and glide and I didn't see the "joy". All I saw was lackadasical, phlegmatic skating. The music was elevatored down which is probably a good thing because IMO the skate would have looked much worse trying to live up to a Romero version of Rodrigo. Maybe she should try Yani or John Tesh. I don't understand how a skater that had such fire at one time can so totally loose it...g

[FunnyBut]

I would place them
1. Michelle - I really liked this program, I thought she very 'in character', I'm not sure there are so many 'same old michelle' comments, perhaps she's just been on TV so much the last 10 yrs. I'd agree her program was a little sparse, but there is also an inherent simplicity and lack of extraneous movement that is part of her skating. For example, when I saw the footwork sequence the 1st time, I thought there wasn't much to it....when they replayed, you could tell there there were numerous change of blades and direction. At first I thought AP was best, now I'd give it to Michelle, but it was close.

2. AP - She delivered the most in terms of her intended elements, and she gave a confident, complete program. She could have been 1st.

3. Sasha. I love this program. There were three big errors (fall on lutz, fallout of two spins) otherwise I'd have put her 1st. She really went all out, and the 3-3 sequence was great. Everyone raves about the footwork...I'd agree it was the most musical and fun to watch, but was it really more difficult than Hughes/Kwan?

4. Vika - Nice to see her deliver an essentially clean and confident skate. I love her line and her flow, she could add some inbetweens, there is no 'lay back' in her layback.

5. Hughes - Definitely the most loaded program in terms of the in-betweens. I would think it take longer to master a program such as this one, maybe that's why there was a lack of finesse compared to some of the other ladies. She should be dinged on delivery (I'm just talking the quality of the in-betweens, not so much the elements) but rewarded for content. Like many others, I'm somewhat bothered by some of her positions and movements. She completed only the 3 easiest triples, even with difficult entrances, I'd have to put her 5th. But I could see Sarah delivering on all the jumps and content in the near future, and she'd have a hard to beat total package.

Mostly I'm SOOO grateful that the ladies showed us their new programs. After watching the men, I was totally prepared for botched up, I've-been-too-busy-touring-and-resting versions of Daphnis, Scherazade, Carmen etc.8O

[marlyn]

Originally posted by Spinner
all I could think of when she was performing her footwork was how much it reminded me of Yagudin's.

If Sasha's footwork sequence is causing people to compare her to the Olympic Champion, then I'd have to say that she is doing something right. Seems to me that is a good thing....Yags footwork brings the house down, and if Sasha is able to do this with the same effect, then I say Go for it...it is exciting and different. i think the move to Tarasova was a good one. If she can get her consistency, I say Watch Out.

[Azam356]

Marlyn,
I totally agree with you.If sasha can do the same footwork as an olympic champion then that tells me she is olymic champion material. The program was terrific and you didnt mind the mess ups at all she was so awesome to watch
Why when a newcomer just goes glide glide jump teh announcers complain and say they need to "improve their artistic ability"but when Michelle goes glide glide jump her program is "clean and simple". When you watch a program by Alexai or in the old days Paul Wylie you could turn the sound off and just about be able to guess their music-that is artstry=when the skater can express what he is skating over the voice of Dick Button(LOL I had to get that in) Ann-Parices program did that sasha almost did that but as much as I like Michelle there was like nothing there--

[Tessa]

I was a little shocked that Michelle won.

I liked Sasha's new footwork sequence. So what if it's like Yags, no other woman does it (at least that I know of). I still thing she's over-acting (Look at me, I'm being dramatic at the start of my program) in a Toddstipation kind of way.

Vika -- wow has she got some great arm muscles!

Sarah -- eh. Not great, not terrible.

AP -- very good. I am scared for her though because of the whole mother thing.

[JDC1]

Alexeiskate - you mentioned the same thing that I saw in AP, caution, no abandon and the spins were a bit slow.

Michelle - I would have had her first but not by much. She skated with very good speed, her spins looked good, and her foot work and her general movement in the program is being under rated, look at her feet, she is doing more than just stroking but it's subtle. Her loop looked fine to me and her I think she had really nice flow. Loads of room for improvement but lots of potential. I would have scored her 5.5/58

AP - she didn't have 6 clean triples, she two footed her salchow and her axel was really titled. Her spins need to be faster and overall she needs to be more dynamic but it was nice to see her skate relatively cleanly. 5.7/5.5 I think the music demands a dynamic take charge performance otherwise it over powers the skater.

Sasha - Despite her boo boos she was very good and I loved her 3/3 sequence! I think she's going to be fab by Skate Canada.

Victoria - mabye she was a little slow but she was lovely and much more polished than Sarah.

Sarah - didn't look ready but I think the program has potential. I don't like the music, no tension, too "ethereal" for me but I think it will be much improved by the end of the season. I also didn't like the "I only had 2 weeks excuse" don't make excuses, she had plenty of time she just didn't think it was important enough to get ready so early. Which is intersting considering Campbell's is one of her sponsors.

[Blue Ridge]

Originally posted by Dustin
Just finished watching on TV, some things looked different than they did live last night.

The dress *was* purple, not blue.

wait!, this is the really important stuff, Sasha's dress is purple??? Are you sure??? Are there any photos anywhere?

[NorthernLite]

Originally posted by JDC1

Sarah -I also didn't like the "I only had 2 weeks excuse"

I don't recall Sarah herself trying to make an excuse. But now that you mention it, I wonder if the skaters were just recently told this had to be a regular LP performance, not an interpretive free or some other cheesefest thingy.

There was speculation it was changed to a ISU Oly-style format after Michelle was added, so that she wouldn't lose her eligibility under the byzantine ISU rules. (Participating in an ISU open w/o doing the GP would have made her a "pro.")

As with MK the last several years (who also received criticisms like those you're aiming @ SH), Sarah's juggling a lot right now. Much work goes into producing a TV special and she's doing lots of appearances. She had a minor injury for awhile this summer. And of course, she's back to school.

[spiralsrfun]

I was really impressed with Michelle, Ann Patrice, and Sasha! :D

I would have placed it:

1- Michelle
2- Ann Patrice
3- Sasha
4- Victoria
5- Sarah (sorry, but she just wasn't there)
6- Jennifer (didn't see it of course)


Michelle -
Not bad for only having 2-3 weeks to create....lol. The costume was one of her Sheherazade practice costumes in SLC...I fully expect a more spanish look come Nationals. The music is one of my favorite pieces and the arrangement of it was quite different and very fun, and IMO stood out compared to everyone else's music. I loved the subtle moves, the combo spin was excellent, the footwork was great, and her speed was amazing. When was the last time Michelle skated a competitive program and looked like she was having fun? ;) Since Michelle choreographed this with some input it really shows...because she had fun! The pressure's finally off her and she can enjoy skating again...I expect this to evolve and explode come Nationals.

Ann Patrice -
The music, the costume, the spark, the elegance...she was great! This was a BIG break out performance for her and it should give her great confidence for Skate America. She could win Skate America with this program and with a little polishing here and there, it should be amazing by Nationals. I'm so happy for her!

Sasha -
I knew the move to Tatiana would be good for her. ;) The music is amazing, her look was great (loved the hair), and the program is just beautiful...no question there. IMO this is the program that could win Gold medals for her if she can get consistent. My only critique is with the footwork sequence, IMO it was a little over the top for the music, other than that I just loved it. Her debut did not disappoint at all!

Michelle, Ann Patrice, and Sahsa have real winners IMO!

Sarah -
I'm sorry but Sarah's program IMO was very dull, uninspired, and left me cold. True, she hasn't had much time, according to her 2 weeks, but Michelle also had the same amount of time, and Michelle had fun out there. I do see potential for this program though, but I don't think it's on the same level as Michelle's, Ann Patrice's, or Sasha's. Sarah has some real work to do before Skate America...I hope she can work out the bugs and regain her consistency. The pressure is on her this season and to me, it showed.

[JDC1]

Sarah most definitely said she only had 2 weeks to get her program and that she didn't even expect to place. Yes, I am criticizing her for not being ready just as I criticized Michelle for not being ready for GWG last season. If Michelle had finished 3 or 4 and had said " well I only had 2 weeks" my feelings would be the same, don't make excuses just suck it up and be a good sport or come ready next time. As for the format changing, who knows, it may have and if that is the case then I will cut Sarah some slack but I haven't heard any confirmation on that idea. And furthermore with Campbell's being her sponsor it does behoove her to take the competition more seriously and to be ready to skate her best. Sure she's had a lot on her plate but she should have come more ready, I think she got a big fat gift myself by ending up in 3rd, I would have had her in 5th after Sasha and Vika.

[RoseAugust]

After watching the women's programs a few times, these are my impressions:

VV: I have always enjoyed watching her skate. She's beautiful and her jumps are big. The thing is, though, I can't remember anything about her programs after they're finished . . . other than she is beautiful and her jumps are big!

AP: It's always fun watching a fairly clean skate and she was the only woman to deliver one. She has beautiful lines and her spins were my favorite of the competition. "Passion" seems to be missing, but the season is young.

SC: It's a beautiful program and my initial reaction is that, when skated clean, it may very well be the one to beat this season. However, I have two big gripes with it. There is to much posing while gliding on two skates. The posing is effective for the mood, but when I look at the skates it drives me nuts. Also, the final spin is one of the ugliest moves I have ever seen in skating and she doesn't need it. I yell, "Loose it, Sasha!" at the TV every time she ends a program with it. What is the point of that spin? We already know she's flexible.

SH: It's obviously a new program for her and she understandably skated it that way. She has powerful stroking and I always enjoy watching that part of her skating, along with her spins. The awkwardness remains, unfortunately. BUT, I'm in the minority here because I liked her program and think it will grow into an effective and beautiful program. There were alot of in-betweens and it kept my attention.

MK: It was skated like the new program it was, but I see alot of potential in it. It seemed like her spins have improved in the speed department, which is a good thing. With time I think she will show a little more attitude and add a few more connecting steps or field moves to make it a more complete program. I was definitely moved by the freeness and joy of her skating.

My placements: MK, AP, SC, SH, VV

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by marlyn
If Sasha's footwork sequence is causing people to compare her to the Olympic Champion, then I'd have to say that she is doing something right. Seems to me that is a good thing....Yags footwork brings the house down, and if Sasha is able to do this with the same effect, then I say Go for it...it is exciting and different. i think the move to Tarasova was a good one. If she can get her consistency, I say Watch Out.

If people were comparing Sasha's footwork to Alexei's only in term of their intricateness, creativity, power, speed and musicality, then that would be a good thing. But if people are looking at Sasha's footwork and the first thing that pops to their mind is, "Gee, isn't the footwork almost an exact copy of something Alexei would do in his program ?", then I don't think the comparison is necessarily favorable. Why would you want your performance to remind the viewers of someone else's performance ? I said in a previous post that TT should come up with something that is unique for Sasha. It shows a lack of creativeness on the choreographer's part if she's giving all of her single skaters the same piece of choreography. Perhaps as the season continues, the footwork sequence will also continue to evolve.

[quarkiki2]

Well, I thought that all of the ladies should be commended for their performances. I think that they all laid out solid programs. I, too, wish I would have seen Jennifer Robinson, grr... I also think that the competition was pretty close, hence the Junior-style ordinals. I can't say I really DIS-agree with the results, but I can't say I really agree, either.

I think it was a toss-up between Ann-Patrice and Michelle and would have been ok either way. Ann-Patrice landed more jumps, but seemed a little restrained. Plus, she drops her back when picking on her toe jumps and I'd like to see some more height in them. I liked the style of her dress, but I think it needed to be done in more vibrant colors -- Madame Butterfly is very passionate music and pale blue just doesn't do it for me.

Michelle doubled a couple of jumps and her combo wasn't of the highest quality, but her ease of movement and confidence were undeniable. And, though she doubled her first lutz, she clearly took off from an outside edge on it. I think her flip was a little out of control because it was higher than normal. Her combo spin seemed faster than normal, too. It was very nice to see her skate a LP with lightness and relaxation again. I've missed that from her. I liked the dress and the color. I don't know if I want to see Michelle in red for a LP two years in a row, not that she looks bad in red.

I would have put Sasha third. Aside from the fall and the freaky spins, I really enjoyed her program. I'm not so keen on the "Ice dance" faces in the beginning, but I think the music suits her. I thought she "sold" the program and I do think she's benefitted from working with Tarasova. If she'd skated clean, she could have easily won this, but not with a fall, no combo, and the spin errors. I loved Sasha's dress, but I though her hair looked messy. I just prefer a classical bun, I guess!

It was a toss-up for me between Sarah and Viktoria. Sarah's program is chock full of stuff, but wasn't executed very precisely. And the generic ballet music didn't really have enough highlights, I think. I'd really, really like to see her do something more snappy -- my favorite program of her's is still Fosse -- and I just love it! I do think that this program will be good when she's worked on it, but I don't know think it's nearly as exciting as Sasha's. And she needs a combo!!! This costume was my least favorite of Sarah's. I think the way the straps hit her shoulders really emphasizes when she's not standing up straight.

Viktoria seemed very much inproved, to me. I think that she will be RIGHT behind Irina at Russian Nationals and Europeans. She landed more jumps more cleanly than Sarah, but didn't have the difficulty in choreography, so, again, I'd have been ok if either was fourth. And I think that this costume wasn't particularly flattering on Vika, either. I'd like to see her in a costume with sleeves, for once!

Anyway, congratulations to all of them on a fantastic start to the season!

[loveskating]

I would have had it A.P. McDonaugh, and tied Victoria and Sasha.

Loved all their programs, but Sasha's program is the class act in the field, really fine, very nuanced and power packed with both technical difficulty, quality, and a very hard program because its hard to live up to the music, which is probably why the serious mistake on the spin cost her so much on presentation...as she landed a very difficult jump sequence.

It was good to see A.P. skate well...although I was not impressed with her 2 axel, which I took a good look at this time. Whatta lutz, though and what a sitspin! She has lovely carriage and is beautiful on the ice.

I love Vika's long edges, and her jumps are just to die for.

[loveskating]

Sasha's footwork is not an exact copy of Yagudin's...but even if it were, the really wonderful thing is that ladies are doing such difficult footwork...which has pretty much been the province of the boys until Tara and now Sasha ventured into that territory.

I love it.

[cello]

Originally posted by RoseAugust
VV: I have always enjoyed watching her skate. She's beautiful and her jumps are big. The thing is, though, I can't remember anything about her programs after they're finished . . . other than she is beautiful and her jumps are big!

I feel the same way. I think she needs to get choreographed for her size, much like Khorkina in gymnastics. She is not a compact little skater, but she comes out with these compact little skater programs that IMO don't suit her. I could see her with music like A Day in the Life actually. Or, maybe more New Agey type stuff. Gusmeroli is one who usually fits her music to her physicality. Volchkova isn't going to out babyballerina the babyballerinas. She should go in another direction.

[cienicsk8]

Great point, loveskating....
Tara was the last lady to do any really major footwork. Irina comes closest, with her one-footed footwork.
Glad Sasha/Nikolai/Tatiana are bring it back to the forefront for the ladies!!!!!

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by cienicsk8
Glad Sasha/Nikolai/Tatiana are bring it back to the forefront for the ladies!!!!!

Just as long as it looks like Sasha Cohen and not Alexei Yagudin, which is what I saw yesterday in Sasha's footwork.

You didn't have to be a rocket scientist to immediately see the uncanny resemblance (except that Sasha's is not nearly as sophisticated as Alexei's).

[lynlei]

Since my VCR failed on me, I could only watch Sasha, Sarah and Michelle.

I am most impressed with Sasha.
I also would have placed her above Sarah even with the fall.
Did not find the music jarring though. I would think as she becomes more comfortable with the program we would find the music edit rather effective.

After watching Sasha, I was annoyed with Sarah's sloppiness, her posture, that free leg with jump take off and the bend leg in spiral.
True she had more inbetween moves, but I thought they were a little too much and reminded me of Irina's arm movement (which I think sometimes too much)
May be I was expecting a more refined program from the "current Olympics Champion". :p
Also, I wish she did not wear costumes full of beads. That can be very dangerous thing for skaters who skate after her.......

I did not think that Michelle's choreography was anything "new" but nice to see her enjoy skating out there :)

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Emanfan

You didn't have to be a rocket scientist to immediately see the uncanny resemblance (except that Sasha's is not nearly as sophisticated as Alexei's).

I got a chance to see a very early derivative of this in August, when she skated at the ISI Benefit show. Given the short time and the obvious improvement, the proficiency she's showing is rather incredible. Kudos to her for even attempting this, especially when everyone will definitely make a comparison to Aleksei with regards to the footwork, and Aleksei has been doing it for how many years now? ;)

It bodes well that Sasha is challenging herself and using World & Olympic champions as her role models. The most notable use of a 3-toe/half-loop/3-sal combo by a ladies skater before Sasha would be Tara Lipinski who landed it beautifully in Nagano to win the 1998 Olympics.

Note - it is impossible to do a 3-toe/3-sal combo - the half loop serves to get a skater on the right takeoff edge for the sal, and keeping enough speed going to be able to do the 3-sal at the end isn't an easy thing to do. It is counted as a combo and not a jump sequence (no steps in between).

[Emanfan]

Don't get me wrong here Adrian. I like Sasha very much, so much so that IMO she does not need to emulate anyone else's skating technique. She is so capable of developing her own. To use her peers as role models is one thing, to copy their style is another and that (to me) is what I saw.

I didn't mean to compare unfavourably Sasha's footwork with Alexei's. I just wanted to point out that the similarities were striking and it took away from that part of the program for me. I believe Sasha is capable of standing on her own two very independent feet, should develop her own style and skate with the same passion as her teammate.

[adrianchew]

Emmafan - I understand what you mean totally... but skating has only so many elements left to be invented, that almost all skaters are not very original. I'd love to see her develop on the footwork - perhaps when she gets more adept at it, maybe she'll start doing it with a different pattern and change the sequence and tempo into a style of her own.

I'm so glad that Sasha wasn't totally Aleksei-fied by Tatiana and Nikolai - they're probably experimenting and seeing what she can do and then will expand from there.

[Emanfan]

Well Adrian, her coaches certainly have a lot of raw material to work with. I am looking forward to seeing her LP through the season. She is indeed a beautiful skater.

Although (one more criticism). I just can't learn to appreciate her final spin (I have no idea what she calls it). I think it looks unnatural and unattractive and wish that she would change that element to something else that would showcase her flexibility.

[adrianchew]

Emmafan - the Y-spin at the very end, when she lifts her foot up high and spins really fast. Its a love or hate element - and its pre-Tarasova, and totally Sasha! I've had people ask me if she was still doing it this season - both those that want it kept, and those that want it gone!

Personal perference - I prefer the Y to most Biellmann spins... there are very few than can do a beautiful Biellmann, and most of them attemping a Biellmann or a variation of it don't hold the spin for very long. The other option would be to do a donut spin (think Baiul) for flexibility - but that's not an upright spin. I don't think anyone has ever done a donut better since Oksana.

[Emanfan]

I guess I'll just have to get used to it then -- it just looks like my very worst Yoga class nightmare.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Gotta honk in on the footwork :idea:

I don't think of that footwork as Alexei's style at all (even though I love it). Skaters go to certain coaches/choreographers to "get" some of their moves. Lori Nichol, Sandra Bezic, Christopher Dean all have as easily identifiable choreography as TT and while I hope not to see little carbon copies all over the place I don't think picking up the good parts is a bad thing at all.

To make it short(er) I LOVE Sasha's footwork part and hope she continues to develop it.

I agree on the final spin though - unless she can get her back straight on that it looks very funky which doesn't fit into her programs, I'd much rather see the leg lower and the back straight, also it worries me regarding her back strength and stretch...g

[Luenatic]

3Toe/half-loop/3Sal is a jump sequence, NOT combination. ISU specially pointed out a half loop in between 2 jumps is called "Jump Sequence". This was announced in this year's ISU announcement.

http://www.isu.org/news/1162.html

From ISU Communication No.1162:

I. Decisions of the 49th Ordinary Congress, Kyoto, Japan, 2002

The following Rule changes were accepted by the Congress:

5. Description of a jump sequence: A jump sequence consists of a minimum of two jumps connected with small quick steps, unclassified jumps such as half-loop, split jump, mazurka, etc., hops and/or turns. The sequence should be continuous in a rhythm to make it apparent where the sequence begins and ends.


Even though it is not possible for a pure counter-clockwise (or pure clockwise) skater to do 3T/3S combo, skater can do 3Sal/3Toe combo.

[donnamarie]

The reason Sarah wasn't ready is because she was busy taping a special (or two) for NBC. She mentioned that she'd only had her program for two weeks, but she said it in a laughing way. Basically she said that she really wanted to attend this competition, even though her program wasn't totally ready, and she was happy with how it turned out. Did anyone hear any whining or excuse-making in that? I sure didn't.

I'm glad she showed up, even though she wasn't ready to unveil this program. She could easily have made an excuse to bow out. She could also have easily skated last-year's-program. Instead, she showed up, and she showed us her new program, exposing the program and herself to criticism. Myself, I'd much rather see her new program, ready or not, than last year's. I enjoy seeing a program in its various stages and watching it develop. That's part of the mysterious and creative process that makes skating so wonderful.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Luenatic

3Toe/half-loop/3Sal is a jump sequence, NOT combination. ISU specially pointed out a half loop in between 2 jumps is called "Jump Sequence". This was announced in this year's ISU announcement.

*sigh* - that doesn't help. :?

Thanks for the update - keeping up with rule changes isn't easy.

donnamarie - with regards to Sarah, I was surprised given how little time she had to work with that program, it didn't look really bad. If you compare hers with Tim Goebel, I'd say Tim really needs to work hard! She just needs to practice her triples and get them back up to speed or AP might have a field day at Skate America. :!:

[hydro]

Sasha's footwork is not an exact copy of Yagudin's...but even if it were, the really wonderful thing is that ladies are doing such difficult footwork...which has pretty much been the province of the boys until Tara and now Sasha ventured into that territory.

you can't be serious!? Tara and Sasha invented footwork for ladies skating? um, go back to 96 Worlds, and watch Lu Chen's version of Rach, now that is footwork and skating to the music. go back to 96 Worlds and watch Michelle skate Romonza in the SP and do a serpetine footwork sequence that will put any footwork sequence by Tara or Sasha to shame. i think what you just said is one of most absurd comments i've ever heard on a message board. Not to mention Irina! Irina has had the most difficult footwork sequences in both LP and SP of any top lady over the course of the last 3 seasons! and Michelle's footwork in her LP last year also puts Sasha's "Yagudin" footwork to shame. Same with her circular pattern in her Rach performance. if you are going to make claims such as the one you just made, please back them up! i'm in histerics here! :)

now, my thoughts on Campbells:

1. Michelle 5.4/5.8 - the program showed the most security and run of the blade, had the most maturity and ease of movement, and wasn't derivative of any other skater. Her footwork sequence was the best of the night (if only a little short, but did cover the entire length of the ice). also, her combination spin was the best of the night (most postions and fastest, who'd thought, huh?). the jumps she did land were correct, high, and had excellent flow. that last lutz was textbook (she held the landing for several seconds). the program was so-so, it had great moments, but also had some pretty boring moments. i hope she gets a real choreographer and sticks with that choreography.

2. AP 5.6/5.6 - double footed two jumps, but the program was really the complete package. i love her skating, her edges are so smooth, and everything looks so easy and confident. best jump content of the night (or tied with VV). the program was ok, i loved her split jump, hop, 3flip combination, really set her apart.

3. Sasha 5.4/5.7 - loved the program! but is it just me, or is it very derivative of a lot of different skaters? she has Michelle's Spiral in there, she has Yaguding footwork, and that trademark TT angst. it works, and works well, but not wholly original. am i the only one who really liked her costume? i think it looked great on her! i just can't believe she's doing Michelle's spiral! if she wants to use Michelle's spiral, she could at least improve on it. i've always loved the music, and Sasha skates it well. lots of two-foot gliding, but i doubt the judges will notice

4. VV 5.6/5.4 - by far the most improved, and best jump technique. the lutz was amazing, as well as the flip. i was kind of groaining that she replaced Irina, but was pleasantly suprised! i really liked her program, and am glad she is skating so well. it bodes well for her for the season to come, and she could challened Sarah at Skate America.

5. Sarah 5.0/5.5 - the program has a lot of potential, but i'm sorry, if you're not going to land anything better than a loop and you don't even do a combination, you don't deserve 3rd place! junior skaters land better jumps than that! i know its not all about the jumps, but you seriously need some jump content, no matter how many 3-turns you do in a program! i'm sure she'll be more than prepared for SA, and the program will finally come together there, but not an impressive debut, imo.

too bad we couldn't see Jen :(

[lrngsk8-gabi]

I didn't see it as whining or excuses, I like to know how long the programs been in the making. For me, the parts of her skating I don't like may not change with practice anyway.

At this stage it's basically just a preview of the programs and a chance to see if anything about the skater has changed...g

[donnamarie]

Ellyn - to answer your question -

To me, Viktoria's skating seemed slow. Although I wasn't there in person, it looked to me like the actual ice coverage was slow. (I have been to live competitions, and I know this isn't always easy to tell from tv.)

The program also seemed slow in terms of content. Not much choreography, not much in-betweens. I was bored, but that is just me, and I have not seen anything exciting from her in many years of watching. Again, that's just me.

At times the music speeded up, and Viktoria did not. I didn't see much variety of speed or anything very dynamic that would reflect the music.

It's not that I don't like slower, lyrical skating, and it's not that I prefer "busy" skating at all. Angela's skating, for instance, is not necessarily full of in-betweens, but there is a lyricism that I don't see with Viktoria. Others may see it, but I don't.

I hope I have explained myself enough :D but basically, many of our reactions to skating are subjective in the end.

[donnamarie]

Adrian - yes, AP has just become a contender! I think she put herself on the map with this competition. People will be watching her for sure at SA.

Sarah does have a lot of work to do in a few short weeks. It will be fun to see the changes between now and then. I was glad to see that Sarah looked relaxed and up to the challenges ahead. And Sasha looked like a new person with a complete make-over, much more sophisticated in hair, makeup, costume, and choreography. It's going to be an interesting season, and I think that Sarah and Sasha especially will be challenging each other for the next four years.

Bottom line - it was great to see some new programs. I don't know if it's good for the skaters to have a competition in early October - interrupts their training - but it was nice to have a little peek before the season starts in earnest. I'm so glad that Sasha and Sarah unveiled new programs. How gutsy of them both (and considerate of us, the fans) 8)

[duane]

1) AP
i was impressed with her performance over everyone else. and, she would get extra brownie points for her amazing outfit. she looked awesome.

2) sasha
sasha just has me mesmorized while she skates. beautiful artistry, good footwork, nice jump sequence.

3) michelle
good, but i didnt like the program. the only reason i placed her over sarah is because she landed more difficult jumps.

4) sarah
i actually agree that the program suits her. however, she made too many mistakes in the jump department.

5) volchkova
not much to say. however, her lutz is awesome!

[donnamarie]

Gabi - you're very honest, that you can appreciate what Sarah does, but she's not your "cup of tea" more or less. Different people affect us in different ways. Personally I love Sarah's skating but that's just me. I think it's very cool when people can separate their personal preferences from the actual worth of a performance.

[mobius]

I think that the music was about as badly cut as L/T FD from a couple of seasons ago. Actually it seemed that she almost used the exact same music as L/T with the same cuts. But of course, nobody criticized about it back then, cuz they are the beloved American dance pair, whereas Vika is the Russian (the threat to the formidable American ladies team).

[donnamarie]

One more comment on Sasha's final spin - thumbs down from me - it looks too much like she's straining, and the look of intense determination on her face detracts from the character she's playing and the mood of the music. Although maybe I've seen her do it on other occasions when it looked more effortless.

The footwork sequence: I love the drama of it, but it does remind me of Alexi's program, maybe too much so. If she can change it a bit to make it more her own it would help. It was exciting though, and I found myself thinking that THIS is what women need to do more of, this kind of dynamic skating and drama. The men do this, but the women much less so. I also think that the women haven't even begun to explore the dramatic potential of footwork ... so I say YES to Sasha's footwork section.

[Mayra]

Originally Posted by adrianchew
It bodes well that Sasha is challenging herself and using World & Olympic champions as her role models. The most notable use of a 3-toe/half-loop/3-sal combo by a ladies skater before Sasha would be Tara Lipinski who landed it beautifully in Nagano to win the 1998 Olympics.

;

Another notable ladies skater to use this sequence would be 1999 World Champion Maria Butyrskaya, who landed this combination consistantly the last four years. I remember there being talk about whether it being harder or equal to a 3toe/3toe combination. People seemed to come to the conclusion that it was about equal and maybe even less technically difficult. Which got me wondering if Sasha has planned a harder combination besides that jump sequence/combination such as the 3lutz/3toe she had planned last season? Is that harder combo being ditched?

A for Sasha using Yagudin's footwork, a lot of TT's students use a similar footwork pattern, including B&K. Seems to be a Tarasova trademark move.

[duane]

also surya, who consistently landed the 3toe/.5loop/3sal sequence during the 93, 94, & 95 seasons.

mayra,
i think peggy indicated that sasha had planned a 3lutz/3toe. if the 3toe/.5loop/3sal and 3lutz/3toe are the jump seq/combos that sasha plans--and if she eventually nails them--i dont see anyone beating her! :D

[Dustin]

I, personally would consider the 3/.5/3 harder as it is harder to get the check right on the hop and have the arms and leg in the correct position for a 3 salchow. Whereas with a 3 toe, if the toe is a little off it can still be pulled off. If the .5 loop is even slightly off, the whole jump is off.

[Mayra]

Originally posted by duane


mayra,
i think peggy indicated that sasha had planned a 3lutz/3toe. if the 3toe/.5loop/3sal and 3lutz/3toe are the jump seq/combos that sasha plans--and if she eventually nails them--i dont see anyone beating her! :D

Right now, Sasha is the short program queen IMO. When she lands everything in that short, she brings the house down. I can only imagine how great that Rach program will come out should she skate it cleanly! 8O

Re: the 3/.5/3 Many times Maria had a wonky transitions from the half loop to the 3sal and it always amazed me how she could pull it off. If anything, it makes the entire combination look extremely sloppy when not done correctly.

[duane]

Originally posted by Mayra
Many times Maria had a wonky transitions from the half loop to the 3sal and it always amazed me how she could pull it off. If anything, it makes the entire combination look extremely sloppy when not done correctly.

i agree. actually, each time maria landed this sequence, it looked sloppy to me. i think this had to do with maria's--um--"unique" landings, which always appeared very awkward.

IMO surya's 3/.5/3 was the best (tho sometimes the 3sal would be underrotated), because she would sometimes begin the sequence with a split-jump.

[Luenatic]

I'd think 3T/half-loop/3S is a little easier than 3T/3T.

For the 3T/half-loop/3S sequence, if the first 3T was landed a little off, a half-loop could correct the problem and gave the skater a little more time to regroup and get a secure LBI for the 3S. It's not pretty though.

For 3T/3T, if the first 3T landing was off, it's quite difficult to pull off another 3T. There is no time to regroup and regain a secure RBO. It's easier for men to do it as some men skaters can do a 3T from standing still. :D

[Yazmeen]

I read a wonderful quote on, I believe, RSSIF (and I apologize that I can't remember the thread or poster) about Michelle, Sarah and Sasha and the "look how high I can lift my leg" spin and how they focus:

Michelle: Looks to the heavens
Sarah: Smiles at the audience
Sasha: Looks at herself (her leg, anyway) and focuses inward.

These descriptions actually describe their styles of skating pretty well!! An interesting comparison.

[AxelAnnie22]

OMG! That is all I can say. I only just now got around to watching some of the ladies. I was totally blown away by Sasha. I wasn't expecting to be.......I had read so many weird things. But, from the moment she began to stroke it was amazing. As she took her first two strokes, all I could think was Elena B.!! It is the fundamental difference between the Russian and American ladies.......the fundamental power of each move. The grace, the quite the glide. And the program! Fabulous! The footwork. Amazing. The musicality - spot on!

And AP - she was wonderful! Such grace and elegance. I didn't find that there was anything lacking in her presentation. Any kind of inwardness. What marvelous skating! I think we are going to see quite a battle (and shake up) on that podium at Nationals and Worlds!

[dbell]

I taped this last night (came on Phila tv at 12 AM) and just finished watching it.

Men - splat fest. I will go on record as saying Mike Weiss looked to be the most prepared and I liked the program finally! Yes, a positive Weiss comment from me! 8O

Women

Sasha - I'm glad TT is taking some of the 'check me out' aspect out of her skating and I'm thrilled she has a new choreographer and can finally concentrate on her skating. BUT - the footwork bothered me. I think that by the TT camp copying Alexei's footwork into Sasha's program it lessens the impact of it. When Mishin tried it with Plush last year, it didn't work in the program. Sloppy spins, otherwise nice skate.

AP - she still looks like she's 12 to me. I'm not a fan of the costume (butterfly bedazzler to me), the jumps were nice, the program not bad. Have to second the comment by another poster about the mom - scary!

Sarah - Am I the only one who hates that the start of her programs are 15 seconds of her standing there before she moves? I'd like to see it again in a few months.

VV - I love the piece she skated to, but the choppy editing - YEECH! Did she steal Plushy's sound editor? Nice jumps.

Michelle - I'd like to see Alexei with this music. I didn't see anything original and could predict the next move all through the program. Sleepwalking. I love her spiral, I love her grace, but it was the same old Michelle and I swear if you put the sound on mute, you couldn't tell it wasn't an old program!

[danibellerika]

Viktoria-WOW!! I kinda liked her before, but she's doing REALLY well now. Her presentation is even a tad better(just a tad). I think she could have placed higher.

AP-BEST performance of the night if you ask me. Her costume is nice. I like it. Her program is also really nice. I'm glad that she placed so well and I think that she should have won. the only thing I didn't like was her makeup.

Sasha-I liked her hair. Her costume was nice, but it could be better. This program is going to be dangerous. I know it. She'll work on it for a month more and have it even more prepared at Skate Canada. Even though she messed up the combo spin, she still gritted it out and you have to give her credit for that. The footwork was nice and I'm sure the more and more comfortable she gets with the program, the better she'll perform it(though she's off to a pretty darn good start already). She fell on that second lutz, but that was a difficult jump especially from that ina baur. sasha will train that for a few weeks and improve, i'm sure. I think Sasha should have been higher personally.

Sarah-I just was not feeling this performance, but i'll be fair and give it time. Maybe I'll like it a little later. Until then, Viktoria V. was better.

Michelle-I like her footwork. But this program is young. She messed up on some jumps which is why I'd put her in second place. I also didn't like her costume at all. the red one looks MUCH prettier, IMO.

overall: My standings would have been

1.AP
2.Michelle
3.Sasha
4.Viktoria
5.Sarah
6. being that they chacked JR, i'll just keep her at 6. but i heard she fell on a lot of her jumps as well, so that placement probably makes sense.

This season is shaping up to have a whole lot of suprises. I wanna see how Jenny Kirk and Angela N. are doing now

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by donnamarie
The reason Sarah wasn't ready is because she was busy taping a special (or two) for NBC. She mentioned that she'd only had her program for two weeks, but she said it in a laughing way. Basically she said that she really wanted to attend this competition, even though her program wasn't totally ready, and she was happy with how it turned out. Did anyone hear any whining or excuse-making in that? I sure didn't.

I'm glad she showed up, even though she wasn't ready to unveil this program. She could easily have made an excuse to bow out. She could also have easily skated last-year's-program. Instead, she showed up, and she showed us her new program, exposing the program and herself to criticism. Myself, I'd much rather see her new program, ready or not, than last year's. I enjoy seeing a program in its various stages and watching it develop. That's part of the mysterious and creative process that makes skating so wonderful. Don't you find it at all galling that a skater (let alone the Oly Champ) is too busy enjoying the spoils, the frills, and the checks, to prepare for a competition? We are all busy. But, I don't show up for work (especially if I was going to be seated at my desk on national TV) not prepared!
In my book, that is unacceptable.

[RobinA]

My thoughts:

MK: The program looks to have some potential.

AP: My favorite of the up-and-comers. I could do without the over-sparkled costumes, though. I worry about the combos. The second jump seems barely eeked out. Her flow in general is first rate and it will only get better.

SC: Not my cup of tea. I liked the footwork section. There seems to be less emphasis on "look at me I'm flexible," which can only be an improvment. The y-spin at the end is hideous and always has been.

SH: I like this new program a lot, even though it is new-looking. With Sarah's recent programs I definitely do not get that skate, skate, jump feeling I do from a lot of other skaters.

VV: I still feel like I'm watching her through her arms. I like her, though.

[JDC1]

My sentiments exactly. I don't recall writing that Sarah "whined" but she did offer an excuse even if she didn't say "Please excuse my performance as I only have had this program 2 weeks and am not exactly ready". She should have come ready, skating got her all this attention and she should keep her level of skating up. I think that's true of all the contenders including the men, except for the injured guys, I say thumbs down to the splat fest. They should have been ready. You have a competition scheduled, take an extra couple of weeks and get ready. I was actually totally okay with her skipping Worlds since she was just trying to capitalize on her instant fame and the chances it offered but now her "grace" period is over, as far as I'm concerned.

As far as footwork goes, I'd be interested in the opinion of someone with some technical knowledge, Louis or Ellyn K as to why Sasha's footwork is considered harder than Michelle's foot work? I am not saying it isn't harder, I really have no concept of what makes foot work harder, just asking a question.

[somechick]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Don't you find it at all galling that a skater (let alone the Oly Champ) is too busy enjoying the spoils, the frills, and the checks, to prepare for a competition? We are all busy. But, I don't show up for work (especially if I was going to be seated at my desk on national TV) not prepared!
In my book, that is unacceptable.

You know, I have seen you write over and over how Sarah is making excuses. I have yet to see how she is doing that. She said placement was not on her mind--she just wanted to get some experience with her program since it is new. How is that an excuse? It seems to me that her goal was not just to beat everyone else, it was to get experience performing a new program and get feedback. I don't see an excuse and don't see it as whining. The only whining I see is coming from you because you seem to be so personally offended that Sarah is actually taking advantage of opportunities being given to her. You have made it quite obvious that you don't care for Sarah's skating, so it amazes me that you take it so personally that she didn't perform the best. Well, no one at that competition did (except AP ) and no one was truly prepared so I don't know why the need to continually single out Sarah over and over at every possible opportunity. It is one thing to critique someone's skating, but quite another to twist someone's words around to what you think this person meant.

[Blue Ridge]

I liked the way Sarah was honest about where she is in her training and how she approached this "competition." I think it is good that she was there even if she was not ready with all her jumps. I saw this as kind of a preseason preview, and I was really glad to see everyone's new programs. And I am glad she's been making the most out of her opportunities as Olympic Champion! :D

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by somechick
You know, I have seen you write over and over how Sarah is making excuses. It is one thing to critique someone's skating, but quite another to twist someone's words around to what you think this person meant. Hi Somechick.

You actually have not seen ME writing that at all, let alone over and over. My comment, although directed to a previous post regarding Sarah, was directed at ALL skaters. I didn't twist anyone's words.....didn't even refer to them. I am very consistent in my view about this. Skaters, unless injured, really chap my hide when they show up for a competition and are not prepared. I find it insulting - and I don't care who the skater is.

In the men's section, I said the same thing about Tim. (and all the guys - who usually start the season with a giant splat fest!) One of the commentators said......"and he only had two weeks to put this program together". No he didn't. That was just how he CHOSE to do it.

And, for the record, RE Sarah, I thought it was wonderful, and totally appropriate that she skipped Worlds. So, for me, it is not about Sarah in particular. The same is true about Michelle. IMHO it is not a good move to be too "busy" with all your shows, tv specials, contracts, etc., to not have time to prepare for a competition - which is what got you all the other stuff in the first place!

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by JDC1
As far as footwork goes, I'd be interested in the opinion of someone with some technical knowledge, Louis or Ellyn K as to why Sasha's footwork is considered harder than Michelle's foot work? I am not saying it isn't harder, I really have no concept of what makes foot work harder, just asking a question.

I'll have to give more detailed answers after I get a chance to watch again and analyze. From memory, from one viewing . . .

I found Sasha's and Michelle's footwork to be the two most memorable of the ladies' because they used their whole bodies in relation to the music more than the others. But that would go more to the second mark than the first.

Regarding technical content, I think of toe steps as adding difficulty if they happen at speed -- goign back and forth between the toes and the edges at speed is difficult because of the changing balance points, and you need to be quick and agile to keep the toe steps going without getting stuck on them. Also, anything involving turns is harder than just going forward or backward for long stretches. But strictly speaking toe steps aren't really "skating skills" and should be used as highlights to punctuate a step sequence and add variety. There was some criticism of Yagudin's "Winter" footwork last season (from a technical point of view -- artistically I at least had no problem with it) because all the toe work slowed him down without adding much skating content, and the same criticism would apply even more to Cohen's because it really seemed to be more about walking slowly down the ice and even stopping than about moving out by skating. Because seh covered so little ice with each step and moved her feet very quickly at times, she did have

Kwan's footwork was done at reasonably good speed on reasonably deep edges for a straight-line sequence. I don't remember the specific steps, as to whether she included any difficult turns or turns in both directions. I'll get back to you on that. I think she's capable of more steps (a more complicated step sequence and/or more in-between steps) than we saw in this program, so I hope she'll add more as she continues developing the program. But she skated it out more demonstration of *skating* mastery than Cohen and more memorable use of the musical rhythms and body positions than McDonough, Hughes, and Volchkova, so I'd probably have to give her the highest scores for footwork here.

Outside the designated footwork sequences, Hughes seemed to have the most going on in terms of steps other than crossovers and simple stroking, and McDonough maybe second. I think all the time Cohen spent gliding on two feet and emoting may help the second mark but really detracts from the first. Although she did do a clockwise turn on two feet during that long two-foot section, so that might add a little positive content to what's otherwise an extended rest.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by somechick

The only whining I see is coming from you because you seem to be so personally offended that Sarah is actually taking advantage of opportunities being given to her.

While I clearly can see quite an attempt to explain your position, part of what you said does go out to attack another poster. Please don't do this in the future. Thanks. ~adrianchew~

[blue111moon]

All athletes work with the goal of reaching peak performance level at the most crutial event of their season. With the skating season as long as it is now, I can overlook the lack of preparation for what is essentially a show, if it means that these skaters will be in top shape for Nationals and Worlds. It think it's unrealistic to expect any athlete to be in top shape for the first event(game,race, match, or meet) and then stay there for six months. The ones who are able to do so are true champions of their sport.

I'm looking forward to seeing how some of the programs grow and develop over the season.

[Marie]

I am a few days late with this input. The ladies were placed as I thought they should be except a flip/flop of SH to 4 & SC to 3.

Even though it was a new program SH looked to be "windmilly" as a person in front of us so graciously put it. Arms were all over.

SC had some major bobbles & seemed very unsure however.... This program is going to be a eye popper by the time the season ripens IMO.

side notes
* AP (never actually watched her before) has a wonderful presentation.
* MW was the best I have ever seen him! ( I know another topic)
* MK her years of skating shows in the fluidity over the ice
* I am not sure where some of the judges minds were
:roll:

[loveskating]

IMHO Sarah usually has more steps and turns and all that in her programs...but Sarah doesn't do some of those turns on center, doesn't do some of those things so well ...and personally, I've yet to feel anything with her on the ice...I still just see Sarah competing, element to elment -- but thankfully, some of her elements, like the 3 sal/3 loop, are really first rate.

Its admirable that she goes for it -- but as compared to, say, another skater who is truly ALWAYS on an edge, and doing real footwork throughout...his turns are usually perfectly centered, his carriage is top notch, his interpretation of the music is really profound, never boring, never anything trite or usual, I find...with the highlights at just the right place...that would be Sasha Abt.

However, when it comes to the aspect of gliding around, I see no fundamental difference at all between Kwan's and Sasha's programs...AS PROGRAMS, and Kwan's programs were supposed to have set the standard as programs.

I much preferred Sasha's program to any other that day...can't wait for a perfect skate of it. Next I loved A.P.'s and I'm SOOOO glad she did a spiral and not a 3 jump at the highest point of the music...it was perfect.

[loveskating]

I love Sasha's side catch spin. I love the athleticism....in combination with Sasha's presentation I find her top notch athleticism really unusual, different, innovative and refreshing.

Also, by any standard heretofore mentioned as to a side catch spin, she has raised the level considerably! I fail to understand how anyone could claim it is "hideous" . I can see how someone could not like it because it looks so hard to do, ironically because no one else even comes CLOSE to doing it at that level of difficulty...but to call it "hideous"?

Sasha's front catch spin is also, by any standard previously raised, the best there ever was...even better than Galindo's (straightness of the body, straightness of the spinning leg, centering, speed, straightness, of the caught leg).

[Emanfan]

Originally posted by loveskating
I can see how someone could not like it because it looks so hard to do, ironically because no one else even comes CLOSE to doing it at that level of difficulty...but to call it "hideous"?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really like Sasha, but that spin looks unnatural and unattractive - yes, even hideous. On Sunday, it also looked as though it was beyond HER capabilities. She should get rid of it.

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by loveskating
Also, by any standard heretofore mentioned as to a side catch spin, she has raised the level considerably!

See if you can find tapes of Jennifer Karl (US) and Katerina Berankova (CZE) from the mid-90s. Comparable extension. Didn't Berankova do this spin in a pair program last year or the year before while her partner skated around her?

[JDC1]

Thanks for your input Ellyn. I preferred Michelle's because it really flowed and she seemed comfortable but I really had no clue which one the judges might give more points too.

Emanfan, add me to the your list, I cannot STAND the grab your leg spin. Thumbs down. We all know she's flexible beyond all human comprehension, she can just ditch that spin as far as I'm concerned. I think her gorgeous extension on everything else and on her spirals proves her point.

I liked Sasha's program but as not as wowed as others, maybe it's just the music. No one really wowed me. I loved AP being close to clean and she has such a beautiful back when she skates but she didn't blow me away. Happy to see Michelle so happy to skate and to have spunk but her program is pretty unfinished. Really liked parts of Sarah's but didn't like the music. Thought Vika looked gorgeous and better than ever. It was just really fun to see some skating.

[Impromptu]

Originally posted by Ellyn
See if you can find tapes of Jennifer Karl (US) and Katerina Berankova (CZE) from the mid-90s. Comparable extension. Didn't Berankova do this spin in a pair program last year or the year before while her partner skated around her?

Oh yeah, Jennifer Karl. She had amazing extension... I saw her skate in an exhibition back in 1998 -- she's the only singles skater I've ever seen do a spin in the "Natalia" position.

But when it comes to extension moves, I will always prefer Rory Flack-Burhardt for not only a demonstration of flexibility, but strength, speed and power.

[DBZ]

Originally posted by Ellyn
and the same criticism would apply even more to Cohen's because it really seemed to be more about walking slowly down the ice and even stopping than about moving out by skating.

Thank you, Ellyn. You've managed to pinpoint the reason why I wasn't overly impressed with Sasha's footwork sequence. From my perspective, there just seemed to be very little skating going on. I always thought footwork was supposed to encorporate various changes of edges and direction with good flow and ice coverage. In Sasha's sequence, I found all the toe-steps and abrupt stopping to be quite disruptive and jarring of the overall flow. They seemed more like affectations than anything else, which I thought distracted from the actual skating. When I think of great footwork sequences, I think of Yuka Sato or Kurt Browning -- the latter of which truly utilized those toe-steps.

I suppose that's why I've never admired Yagudin's footwork either -- too many affectations than actual skating. That's the impression I get; however, I realize this might just be an aesthetic judgement on my part, given that I'm not a footwork expert or anything.

[Mayra]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Don't you find it at all galling that a skater (let alone the Oly Champ) is too busy enjoying the spoils, the frills, and the checks, to prepare for a competition? We are all busy. But, I don't show up for work (especially if I was going to be seated at my desk on national TV) not prepared!
In my book, that is unacceptable.



I find it galling that fans expect these skaters to be 100% in early October after an Olympic season full of pressure that required a training schedule I can only dream about. I say good for Sarah for going out and enjoying those frills and spoils that she worked very hard for. After such a hectic schedule, I say good for her for making an honest effort out there on the ice.

[duane]

i agree with mayra.

i think the olympic champion should enjoy the spoils, the frills, and the checks! this is a special time for her.

and, this particular competition isnt, say, Nationals or Worlds! it's not of a "make you or break you"-importance. it is the first competition of the season--a time where most of the skaters are somewhat rusty. i dont think sarah was making "excuses", but merely stating fact. it was good to see her compete, which she could have decided against.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Honking in on the what galls theory 8O

I also feel annoyed when I don't get to see a good skate/movie/whatever

BUT, I do not understand being miffed at the "enjoys the spoils" thing. I think there is a difference. Sure I don't want to be deprived but I don't think people that far removed from me owe me anything.

AAnie - why not just figure it's only ONE competition, they (in general) usually have to get some cobwebs out for the first few outings. Better now than later when we actually get some really good TV coverage (well, sorta).

Unless someone is a real :evil: I actually love to see them "make it" even if it's for something as silly as a pet rock and they can take the money and run. In many cases that works out pretty well all around :twisted: ...g

[sk8lvr]

Well I watched the comp. on Sunday and then read comments. I watched again yesterday with the comments in mind. Here are my thoughts. First of all, it is amazing how much you miss during the first viewing.

VV-Much improved. But I am missing the connection to the music. I love to watch her jump.

AP-She did an excellent job and is packaged very well. I love to watch her style of skating. I'm not sure how much she is getting the music and interpreting it rather than skating through it.

SC-What a fierce and determined competitor. :) Surely at a competition soon, she will get it together and win it. I'm not sure about this program. The music is nice, but she needs more connecting steps rather than the two foot gliding and drama. As far as the straight line footwork, the effect is ok but it would be nice to have something chor. just for Sasha.


SH-First of all, I'm not a huge Sarah fan but I can admire her accomplishments, talent, and down to earth personality. She did a decent job with this new program. She had nice in betweens, good spins. I think that this program is too much like other ones that she has done. I can see glimmers of different choreography such as when she starts her footworks sequence. But Peggy said it all when she said that Sarah's program was "comfortable". Not that she should do some whacked out style that she can't pull off but lets see some variety.


MK-Nice prg. I love the music. I have wanted her to skate a more spanish style since Romanza which was my fav. SP of hers. I hope that Scott Williams can help with innovative connecting steps because this could be a great program.

[proam]

Quote from DBZ
"I suppose that's why I've never admired Yagudin's footwork either -- too many affectations than actual skating. That's the impression I get; however, I realize this might just be an aesthetic judgement on my part, given that I'm not a footwork expert or anything."

Thank you DBZ for the word “affectations” when applied to Yagudin’s footwork, just perfect. Others might have used affectations before when trying explaining why Yagudin’s footwork wasn’t that difficult, but it is the first for me, as I said just perfect.

Amazing what one word can say.

[hydro]

originally posted by duane:
i agree with mayra.

i think the olympic champion should enjoy the spoils, the frills, and the checks! this is a special time for her.

and, this particular competition isnt, say, Nationals or Worlds! it's not of a "make you or break you"-importance. it is the first competition of the season--a time where most of the skaters are somewhat rusty. i dont think sarah was making "excuses", but merely stating fact. it was good to see her compete, which she could have decided against.


exactly. i completely agree with what you said duane.

why shouldn't Sarah enjoy the "frills" of being an Olympic Champ? she earned every one of those endorsements, spotlights, tv specials, etc. and come, she wasn't that bad in this competition! she beat Sasha, didn't she? obviously she must be doing something right. her program, while incomplete in the jump department, seemd to have a lot of other technical content. she had only been working on this program for 2 weeks, so suffice it to say, it will come together much more so later.

[donnamarie]

Yagudin's footwork doesn't look affected to me. I find it expressive of the music and the character. The drama and passion of his footwork works well for me, on a purely aesthetic level. As for whose footwork is truly "difficult" I've heard many opinions about footwork over the years, including from skaters themselves (like Scott Hamilton) and I really don't have an opinion on that. I just know what gives me a thrill :D

[Yazmeen]

Finally watched it tonight on tape;

Men's competition was a bore--the only exciting one was Michael Weiss who IMO should have been second to Yagudin. It was the best I've seen Mike skate in ages, and I loved the moves on the new blades.

The ladies:

VV: Such lovely jumps, so little in between...

SC: This program has the potential to be an absolute WOW if, and its a big IF, she can get consistent with the jumps and elements. Memo to Sasha: You're expressive and wonderful, I'm really beginning to dig you as a skater and competitor; HOWEVER, take a lesson from Michelle Kwan and Sarah Hughes and many other skaters before you. Learn to control the hype about yourself until you deliver the goods, and ditch the "pissy face" in kiss and cry when the results aren't what you wanted. Still, I think her program was MUCH better than Sarah's, and if she hits everything in competition, look out. I also wish whe would ditch that final spin--it was out of control and looked painful this time.

SH: Flat, flat, flat. It looked like she delivered it while working out calculus problems in her head. The program has possibilities, but compared to Sasha, AP and Michelle, she has a lot of improvements to make, and I'm a Sarah fan. Much work is needed here.

APM: Wow, double wow, TRIPLE WOW!!! Beautiful, expressive, elegant--she related to the audience so well. I loved her interview with MK and SH at the end--she looked to be in shock!! She was also personable and honest in her replies to questions. This was darn close for second and first place.

MK: NOT the same old Michelle program!! This has great potential, it had speed, flow and grace, and the footwork sequence was the highlight of the evening for the ladies. Even in this rough state, the moves were polished and finished. She is still a force to be reckoned with.

Its going to be one DARN interesting season!!!

[danibellerika]

Originally posted by Yazmeen
ditch the "pissy face" in kiss and cry when the results aren't what you wanted.

Michelle should take a page from your book as well. Booing at her results in the K&C and all. And i don't think sasha was upset with her marks. She was dissapointed with herself for making a silly mistake like that spin, but I'd hardly call that a "pissy face". And she still picked herself up by not forgetting her friends and was very polite to those little girls who gave her stuff afterwards.

[adrianchew]

Ok - I got a chance to re-review my tape this evening...

Sarah - I still don't get the fuss being made. Given the time she's been working on it - its actually a rather good program... all she needs is to get her triples back up to speed, and of course further tuning of the program. The straight linefootwork sequence seemed to me a little weak (most of the turns seems in one direction?). The spiral sequence is probably a little short (ice coverage). Some spins seems short (too few rotations). There's a lot of detail with in-between elements - presentation of which needs polishing, but content-wise is good.

Sasha - I looked for the 2 foot portions and not only did it not seem excessive (Viktoria had a lot more of that, Michelle had way too much stroking, Sarah had a bit too much of pausing/posing), it actually seems to flow with the program and involve the chereography - I doubt if judges are going to be ducking any points, will likely get extra credit to the presentation mark.

Likewise the footwork is not typical MIFs... when people talk of great footwork and Aleksei, its the step/step/step portion that's really the innovation, comparatively to footwork that skaters such as Scott Hamilton and Kurt Browning might do. I saw Sasha attempting it in August - its not as easy as Aleksei says... I wasn't even sure if it was a good idea then. Her speed and proficiency seems to have increased quite a bit since then - very noticeable.

As for the spin that some dislike - its a sport after all... the speed she gets doing it is pretty incredible (again, think, difficulty!). I would say its a definite keeper - not to wow or displease the viewing audiences, but for its difficulty factor. Seeing the spin out of control - makes one realize just how difficult it is to do, well centered, at speed, in that position.

[Anita18]

Viktoria: Did L&T give her their music tape of their 2000 FD? Cause I swear, the cuts were exactly the same! Her triple flip is gorgeous, and I feel that she's improving on the presentation as well. However, I didn't really see the nice "run" on the edge that Peggy mentioned. She looked like she was skating through slush in the middle of winter rather than clean ice! Ann Patrice, who skated right after, had loads more run than Vika did. I dunno - maybe it's one of those things that needs to be seen live.

Ann Patrice: I really like her skating - her edges are soft, she doesn't dramatize too much, and she does a real lutz. :) Although I noticed that she prerotates her upper body so much on her toe loops, it's almost a toe axel. Well, at least she doesn't cheat them. ;)

Sasha, Sasha, Sasha: If you're going to do Michelle's spiral, at least improve your edges to the point where it won't look so bad in comparison to Michelle's. Well, her extension was wonderful as always, but I was waiting for her to fall over, cause that's what it looked like. I never ever get that feeling with Michelle, even when it's an off day. Other than that gripe, I really liked that new program (her hair looks gorgeous on her!) although at some parts she seemed to be overdramatizing it a bit, really pushing at music that didn't seem to push back. Her landing edges did seem more secure already, except for that jump she two-footed (the flip?) Plus, she also nicely demonstrated the difficulty of backspins. :mrgreen: I admire her determination, LOL. For the record, I like her catch-foot martini spin only because she accelerates as she pulls in. I think that alone is so cool...8)

Sarah: I think the choreography is improved from last year, and that she is holding out her moves longer. I heard from MKF that the music is from a ballet which takes place in India, which explains the seemingly random closing pose. (I thought, "Where did that come from??") However, she seems to be cheating her jumps more blatantly now that she did before, but it's hard to tell by how much. She does it so fast - her boot obviously turns on the ice, but I can't tell at which point she actually landed.

Michelle: One word: red. I liked the opening movements ("Oooh, sexy!") but I think the music was a little monotonous, since it had the same tempo throughout. I wish she had used some parts from the slower version (the one that Mike used.) However, she's still wonderful to watch and I enjoyed that footwork sequence at the end. A really different style for her and I like it.

Anita

[loveskating]

Hi AxelAnnie22:

I can confirm that you ALWAYS say this about everyone who is not ready for a competition...even your faves, LOL! I don't agree with you on this...I think that these new programs are very, very hard, and that its forgivable for any skater to not be ready early in the season.

Of course, implied in the comments that she was not ready is the assumption that Sarah should skate at a higher level...and since we've seen her do so, we can assume this is true.

However, on the other issue of controversey, I think Sarah was clearly held up in this SPECIFIC competition...and that I do not agree with, not for her, not anyone.

Holding these skaters up and indulging them with special terms and favors turns them into mediocre skaters, who know that they will win whether they train hard or not, or however they skate. They stop pushing themselves or the sport, and this demoralilzes the heck out of the other competitors and confuses the fans about the nature of and rules of the sport.

Nothing personal as to Sarah, but I just cannot stand this phenomenon no matter who the skater is that is being held up.

P.S. IMHO, additionally, A.P. won that competition HANDS DOWN.

[loveskating]

Hi Ellyn:

Perhaps I should have qualified my claim that Sasha's side catch spin is the best ever by adding "of a top competitor with the whole package"?

Also, to someone else...I love Rory Flack-Berghardt and her Russian split...its probably the highest by anyone as to lift...an awesome thing to see -- but I don't recall seeing her do it out of circular footwork, as Sasha did last season, nor does it cover as much ice down the rink as Sasha's Russian split. I've personally never seen anyone with a Russian split of the quality Sasha Cohen has achieved...and that includes Todd Eldredge and Ilia Kulik!!!

The closest as to effect is from another, different element, i.e. Kwan's split falling leaf...which not only has that upward lift, but also flies down the ice, thus providing a huge and delightful moment to any skating fan (however, noting that when Kwan did it out of footwork, without backward crossovers to set it up last season, it did not have the same lift, although she did cover a lot of ice with the first one, and adding the the second was a great effect as well).

Neither the Russian split nor the Split Falling Leaf are required elements, as everyone knows.

[JDC1]

You know it's funny but I didn't think there was at all a clear winner, not in my mind or obviously in the judges mind. I wouldn't have been shocked if AP had won but I do think as far as speed and command of the ice she's not at Michelle, Sarah or Sasha's level but I think more experience and confidence will help with that. I thought it was between AP and Michelle and I thought it was darn close, Michelle's ease of movement and speed was far superior to AP's. I really think AP needs some commanding and interesting foot work.

I watched the programs again last night and I come out liking Sasha's and MIchelle's the best they are the most dynamic and have the most flow and command of the ice. I kinda tie AP and Sarah as far as choreograpy, neither program has a standout grab you by the throat moments but they're both pleasant programs, I liked Sarah's music more the second viewing. I still cannot see how Sarah got a 5.9 or how she was ahead of Sasha but whatever, we'll see how they fare at Skate Canada.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Badams

People are just hiding behind this discussion so that they don't get caught blatantly bashing her.

There is a distinction that needs to be made between critique and bashing. Critiques have been made about all the ladies, as well as praises - this is what a discussion is about. Accusing others of bashing however is the quickest way to bring the discussion down to bashing - please don't do this in the future. If you really have a problem with someone's post, let the moderators know. ~adrianchew~

[proam]

My, my Sarah certainly brings out the frustration in some-too funny. ;)

I will start with Sarah; Sarah’s program is in the freeze-dried stage, all Sarah has to add is her jumps and consistency. The program is the best choreographed, it has meat, so in the end it will be the program to beat.

Michelle is Michelle- let us not forget that she is the Queen of USFSA Cheesefest, so she brought an exhibition number disguised as an LP and won. Is anyone really surprised? I do hope she keeps it, but with a lot more stuff added, right now is a dumb-down program.

I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees the Yags connection in Sasha’s program. Sasha didn’t need a make-over she needed help with consistency. I will reserve judgement to see if I can get pass the Yags connection.

As for Ann Patrice, well it was hard to tell since I was blinded by her costume. ;) I don’t know if she should have won the competition, but she sure won the worst dress because of the abundance of over grown sequins. Someone on Skatefan describe it was falling in a vat of sequins, so apt.
She did have a nice skate, but nothing that would make you say WOW. Sort of like a Jennifer Kirk skate.

Victoria had two things going for her, her gorgeous jumps and her gorgeous looks now she has to add the rest.

I for one would have loved to see Jennifer Robinson and Matt Savoie, so BOO to you ABC.

I really can’t see why anyone takes this Cheesefest seriously, since it is a benign way to get new programs, for those skaters who chose to do so, before a judging panel before the season really starts and counts. Certainly can’t see auguring about placements.

Can’t wait to see what Irina has for us, I wish she was there.

I will by pass the Men-not too much going on there.

[loveskating]

Well, A.P. landed 3 lutz/2 tl, 3 flip/2 tl, second lutz and second flip (I forgot which jump she doubled), loop, sal and her jumps have nice height and power (next to VV that day) and her lutz is a TRUE LUTZ!

Her spins are fast, well centered and lovely and IMHO her spitspin is really great; spiral sequence nothing to write home about but just fine, lovely, her carriage is really good and she has nice flow over the ice, the program as skated to that music, Madama Butterfly, was really expressive, including using the spiral for the high point and I loved the final position.

She is a bit rough around the edges, her 2 axel, sal and Russian split need work, but overall, that day she had the content and IMHO should have won...I'm just talking about the skating on that day.

I personally never really care who wins as I don't base who are my faves on medals (amongst the men, for instance, Abt, then Honda are my faves, but I'd never argue that they won over Yags and Plushenko last season, except for Abt maybe once).

[adrianchew]

Let's not get off topic - this discussion is about the Campbell's ladies event, so if we're going to discussion past results of other events, please start another topic for that in the appropriate forum. Off topic posts here have been removed. Thanks. ~adrianchew~

[JDC1]

I don't have a terribly sophisticated tv (so I cannot slow-mo) but the salchow looked 2 footed on the landing and frankly she seemed a bit slow to me through out the program. I loved her dress, thought it was gorgeous and suited the program. I think she landed 5 clean triples with 2 in combo easily the cleanest program but I don't think cleanest means best or the best skated. Anyway, we can just agree to disagree, I think she's a lovely young lady and I wish her the best but I think she needs more power and more speed, it can be done, look at the improvements in Sasha's skating over the last 2 years.

[adrianchew]

One problem with the whole competition is the choice of using just a 5-judge panel... which is fine for typical USFSA cheesefests using interpretive freeskates, but since this competition was an ISU open involving a competitive freeskate, it should have used at least 7 judges.

Even club competitions usually have 7 judges. It would be interesting if they had 7 or 9 judges, to see how the results might have otherwise turned out.

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by JDC1
I don't have a terribly sophisticated tv (so I cannot slow-mo) but the salchow looked 2 footed on the landing and frankly she seemed a bit slow to me through out the program.

AP's salchow rotation was completed on the ice, but it was on one foot. Her flip also had a slight hook on the ice on the landing, meaning the rotations were not fully completed when she landed. I hope those small technical flaws right now won't give her trouble later on as she grows. AP's lutz was a beaut though.

[kara]

I'm chiming in a little late here, but...

MEN:
They looked unprepared, but I'd much rather see that than nothing at all. Just give me some skating and new programs and I'm happy. It'll be fun to watch the progress the guys make throughout the season.

~Micheal Weiss looked better! He should do pretty well with that program. I see no point in the blades, though. The new moves seemed forced out of a desire to advertise a product and didn't work, IMO. I was impressed and happy to see his lutz attempt and hope he lands it. His hair looked nice, too...longer in the back like that:).
~I liked Timmy's program very much, but wonder if he'll have a decent season...not too sure.
~Thank you, Honda, that the "The Mummy" is not as corney, boring, and outdated as I feared it would be. I really enjoy his skating and didn't want it to be wasted. I liked the one-color and slimmer fitting costume for him and thought his stroking and presence was powerful.
~Nothing to say about Plush and Yags, except it's always nice to see them.

LADIES:
All were a big treat! It's early, but there's great potential here! I liked all of the programs and music choices, except I can't stand any more of VV's music(wish N&G weren't using it, too!), but we'll let it slide b/c she looked so much happier and better overall.

~I did *not* think MK's program was "typical Michelle." She can't change her face, body type, etc., so she will still resemble MK to a degree;). IMO, this was a great attempt and in another league than Schez. and even the latter choreography of SOTBS and TRV...and I think we all could see movement in the right direction with this program. Let's see it after Scott works with her more, too. I loved it and it reminded me of her pre "favorite" days. (This is the type of thing I was expecting to see at GWG last year.) The opening movements and footwork were my favorite parts. She had an entirely different demeanor, as well, which leads me to believe that we may see more steps and choreography added later in the season...she seems more in hunter mode again. Her jumps looked snappier, too, and that lutz had such control and run-out. Gotta land the other jumps, though, and hit 3/3's if she wants to compete later. Anyway, I was thrilled with everything MK. Glad to see her happy.

~AP was great and I'm very excited for her...fun interview and looked like MK Jr. sitting there! I would think she won a lot of fans last weekend. She connected with the audience more and just needs to continue to add "punch" to everything. She has quiet and better edges than most and is a true skater. I wonder if we can come to expect this consistency now that she's training without high school distractions. She also should get credit for her true two lutzes, one in combo, when things get tight down the road.

~Sarah was sloppy, yes, but she always improves and is always consistent. That will be a good program later on. I do wish that hideous opening movement would go, though (when she sticks her butt out, bends over to accentuate the bad back and shoulders, and puts her arm in front of her...bad 1st impression). I also think the one jump from the Oly LP should go...a stag-ish jump...too many little repetitive pieces from SLC that aren't necessary or original, or effective, IMO. I think this program should in no way resemble last year's with even little moves. I liked the other in-betweens and the womanly feel. I'm extremely impressed by her confidence and down-to-earth attitude and think it's great that she's this relaxed. I, for one, would be worried that I would lose after being OLy Champ and wonder what people would think...and she didn't care b/c she knows she'll do it when she needs to and that she's not defined by wins and losses. And THAT is what will make her to continue to win:).

~Sasha's program was more about skating and less about Sasha, so I give it a big thumbs-up! I had gotten the impression that this was a dull program and it was not. True that there's some two-foot skating with nice arm movements...but it was enjoyable, if not difficult. I don't know the order of Rach 2, so I wasn't as bothered by the music cuts. I loved the mood in the beginning and love the "Artur music" for the end footwork. Agree that it's slow and Yagsish and not showcasing a lot of skating...still enjoyed it, though. Stroking looked a better (yeay!!) and I don't think she bent over as far while stroking and I liked that, too. The *flutz*, though, was undeniably horrendous...a deep inside edge, just pause it and you'll catch it on your 1st attempt. It'll be a shame if she attaches a 3t to that and ever gets credit by judges, media, or fans for a lutz/toe combo b/c we all know that was a flip. Overall, I loved the program and think it has great potential, as does Sasha, however, I am still not in any way convinced that she will ever get it together consistently. I think her jumps lack solidity and that she drives herself too hard and expects too much and must get terribly disappionted, yet continues to let the hype surround her (5? articles in the past weeks) and may become her own worst enemy by not being able to be as outstanding as some tout her to become. I do enjoy her line and new feel out there and hope she continues in that direction now that she's with TT.

~Victoria looks absolutely blissful! What happened?? I'm so happy for her and hope she and her lutz show the other ladies how it's done! If she can continue to hold out her moves (but not in slow-mo) and be consistent, she could add so much to ladies' skating. I hope she has a wonderful year!

Well, long post:)...I really enjoyed the competition!

[loveskating]

Well, I don't think Sasha's flutz was any worse than Kwan's....about the same. Slo-mo the tapes. Sarah's flutz is much worse than Sasha's. The only true lutz in that competition belonged to A.P. and VV.

Sasha had the toughest jump sequence of the day, i.e. 3 toe loop/half loop/3 sal, and very well done. Her loop was solid; other than the fall on the second lutz, she had only slight trouble on one landing, a bit low, and I doubt a serious deduction of any kind.

Now, as for the rest: its high quality, IMHO.

Sasha's Ina Bauer is among the most beautiful and best I've ever seen, and its on a HUGE CURVE, but completely held out, and then to go into a lutz from that is truly awesome...she was entitled to repeat the salchow, which has been her usual jump from the Ina Bauer (she has never done the Ina Baur that I've seen on a huge curve like that though, "just" done it almost the entire length of the rink, into 3 sal). OK, so she missed the lutz, but the program with that in it is just so impressive technically, not to mention GORGEOUS.

Sasha's Russian split is among the best, if not the best, I've ever seen and that day, as usual, was huge up and also covered a lot of ice.

Her camel spin switching edges and at speed is breathtakeing and very, very hard. Her presentation of the camel spin is also fully stretched out, perfect turnout, all the aspects of presentation fully done.

Her layback is among the best, and has more variation than anyone else's.

Her spiral sequence is both technically difficult and has the best presentation ever, IMHO.

Her flow over the ice is fast, detailed, gorgeous and she has good speed, fast, crisp turns, and lovely carriage, and she is FULLY STRETCHED OUT AT ALL TIMES, just like G&G were.

As for jumps, her 2 axel is among the best technically; all her jumps have air position only rivaled by Slutskaya and great arc.

SHe made two serious mistakes that day, but Sasha Cohen is, IMHO, the quality in the entire international field of to skaters with the "full package" .

She missed her final spin sequence, but its gorgeous and very tough, and has full tilt athleticism with the side catch spin that only she can do among all the top ladies.

Sasha is working with a new coach, and has greatly improved both the technical and presentation sides of her skating...she is going for things we haven't seen her do before...so of course, she has some work to do to feel fully comfortable and confident in her program.

Additionally, moving is a very stressful thing...according to the medical profession, moving is second only to losing a loved one in creating stress...so Sasha just needs some time to settle into her new home.

[speedy]

This whole "competition" reminded me a lot of last year's Goodwill Games...talk about early, that was the weekend before September 11! Lots of ragged skating and not very exciting. I remember how bad Yagudin looked in the GG last year, and look what he did the rest of the year...so I don't think you can judge anybody's future for this season at all on this one show. Personally I'm glad I didn't make the drive down for it after seeing how disappointing the performances were. Glad to see Michelle leaning towards going to Nats though! Also, is this a Russian coach thing for the ladies with the fake-hair/bun thing? Angela had one a couple years ago, then Shae-Lynn, now Sasha? Sasha has such beautiful hair, I fail to see why you would need to accessorize with the fake hair.

[Yazmeen]

Why the fake hair? Its easy, stable if pinned/anchored in well, and MUCH easier to do than fussing with your own hair. Michelle Kwan originally cut hers short in 99 because it used to have to be SEWN into the bun to keep it in place for competition (one reason why she has almost always had her long hair down and free flowing for exhibitions).

My coach and another skating buddy use those hairpieces like Sasha's all the time for regular wear, and they look quite pretty. I'm lucky that my face shape really only works with minimal fuss short hair--but even I changed the part because of the direction I spin in, to have my bangs "land" better when I come out of the spin!!!! :lol: (And my hairdresser didn't even blink when I told her the reason).

For skating hair--you want pretty, stable while skating and as little fuss as possible!!!

[danibellerika]

Loveskating, you had so many points that were right on the mark but what you said in the end about the moving really did stick with me. When Sasha talks about living in CT, she says how happy she is and all, but one article slipped pass where she mentioned what she missed. I'm sure she misses her friends the most. They all seemed really close. And Sasha surely didn't forget to say hi at Campbell's.

[kara]

loveskating - I agree, VV and AP's lutzes are impressive. I hope that shows up in the marks for them, esp. since they seem to be getting better overall. I know that lutzes are only one part of skating, but since they're harder than flips, it would be unfair to give them the same credit. I thought MK's lutz looked pretty good, but I don't have slow-mo and the angle was bad, so it very well could've been a flutz. I definitely know that she flutzes, but she does lutz, as well, and Sarah always flutzes. I've rarely, if ever, seen Sasha take off from an outside edge even if she starts there...usually leans inside before take-off or *maybe* to a flat. This one was one of the inside ones, so I can't agree with you there that that take-off edge is better than Sarah's. Other than that, though, I thought Sasha looked improved and I loved the program and the new TT feel...that's saying a lot:)! I'm still waiting to see what happens with her consistency, but I agree with a lot of what you posted.

[Hannahclear]

I didnt' get to see the competition, I was at a wedding, but I'm downloading the top 4 off of MKF as we speak. Here are my thoughts.

1) Michelle: I LOVE the new program. Granted, it wasn't at its best, but I think we owe ALL skaters at this point a little slack. What impressed me most were two things. First, ITA with Peggy when she talked about the look of freedom and joy on the ice. I loved this, and I loved her orginal footwork, and attempts at branching out into moves she hasn't done before. Second, the 3flip/2toe, while with some problems was landed and completely rotated with an extra half turn. I haven't seen Michelle go for a slightly wonky combo in years, she usually just pulls back. According to reports, she's been working on that one too, so it was apparently planned. Great job, Michelle. Finally, she looks like she wants to be out there, and that's the best gift she can ever give her fans. Oh and her spins are alot better, faster, nicer transitions and her speed is better. I KNOW that 3 toe and 3 lutz are her money jumps, so Im sure those early troubles will dissapate as the season goes on. Of course, we'll have to watch the loop :oops: . Oh and did anyone notice that the 2 axel was noticably higher and stronger than last season, when it was positively wonky? And that her coach is a total babe? Ok, can we tell I'm excited!?

2) AP: definitely one to watch, major threat for the season. I could easily see her placed first here, she skated very well, still, she does lack some flow and affect in her performance. Overall, quite lovely. Jumps need more flow, very much still looking a bit junior in the air positions and the landings. She will be much more senior looking by Nats.

3) Sarah: she really does that dreamy sort of program, with lots of big doe eyes very well, and I think she has found her comfort zone with this music and type of program. I think it works for her and she should stick with it. The program is good for early on. What bothers me is that she shows little improvement on the rounded shoulders and the free leg during the lutz and flip. Still very awkward in my opinion, and I'm disappointed that this wasn't addressed in the off season. I think her and Robin are addressing awkwardness by loading the program with lots of moves and complicated steps, which is a good thing, but the prob is that she looks awkward doing them. Kind of like overcompensating. I'd like to see her scale back a little, polish her stroking and do about 3/4 of the moves, but do them well, and take the time to really skate them out and FLOW with them.

4) Sasha: Definitely a very strong program, probably the most complete at this stage. I loved the 3/3 sequence, clean and strong. I think the weak finish really did her in, if she hadn't made the errors in a row, she probably would not have been hit that hard. It's still early, so I can understand the inconsistency, but I'm growing a bit concerned, still, I'll wait until SA. If she doesn't go clean there, I'm going to get a little worried about her consistency. Overall, very very lovely number, you can really see TT, and that is a good thing.

[thvudragon]

I really don't understand these "Same old same old" comments about Michelle. No one here could or probably ever will say this about any other eligable ladies skater. Does anyone remember A Day In They Life and how she was soo marked down by International judges? This program is one of her best and shows how she can accomplish great diversity in her skating. 4 years down the road, these same comments won't be made towards Sasha and Sarah. They could never skate with that style or to that kind of music. Also, I think Michelle has been made an easy target by the skating press since the only other person you could compare her to is herself. You can't expect a skater to perfrom a Nationals Lyra Angelica or a Worlds RV every time.

Also, i don't believe Aranjuez is same old. Aranjuez is actually different, but not too different as MM or Rush were. This program goes back to simplicity. The only other skater who matched this level of maturity was Sasha.

Also, AP had a great skate, but she still lacks maturity and connection in her skating. It was great though, and deserved 1st or 2nd place.

Sarah is still the same. I see little to no improvement over last season. her garunteed 1/4-1/2 cheating was still there. Also, her posture still needs improvement. It is in no way comparable to Michelle and Sasha's.

On Sasha, I would have placed her 3rd definitely if it was not for that final spin sequence. She really needs to secure her edges. If she didn't fall on that final lutz, I would have placed her 1st. She is vastley inproved over last season and seems to be a real contender. If she become's consistant, I believe she could actually be on top of the podium this year at Nationals.

That's enought of my rant.

TV
-The Dragon

P.S. Michelle is still the greatest skater in the World.

[Hannahclear]

I really understand your point there thuvdragon, but I'd like to add my take on these things. Actually, pretty much any woman skater has a preferred style and an artistic comfort zone. Right now, we have Sarah with the soft dreamy sort of music, Sasha with the big drama and passionate music and Michelle with her classic programs and music (though I agree this is a departure for her, more light and playful than usual). All 3 women do this style exceedingly well, so why mess with it? They all do a good job with their chosen style, and it works for them very well. There are only so many moves in skating, and it's a bit much to ask for a skater to reinvent themselves every year, especially as few skaters do this. Let's give credit where credit is do. All these programs have great potential and very strong points.

PS: I agree that Michelle is still the best overall ;)

[loveskating]

Hi Kara,

Well, from what I'm told, taking off on the flat on the lutz gets no deduction or lack of credit so the difference is pretty important if that's so!

IMHO, Kwan flutzes and sometimes takes off from the flat, and so does Sasha...they are very similar on the lutz, while Sarah, Jenny and others always flutz and very hard off the wrong edge, plus their entries to the lutz, whether from a long edge or out of footwork, is really wrong from the beginning as to proper technique. IMHO, Irina sometimes flutzes, or takes off from the flat, but most of the time she takes off properly, and then there is Maria and Viktoria, who never flutz, who have a proper lutz, and now A.P. is one of those as well.

Of course, with 2 very difficult 3/3s, Sarah can easily obviate flutzing but she did not land those combinations in this competition!! (For those who don't know, jumps are rated as to difficulty, and the more difficult ones get more credit on the base marks, and if executed well, lots of credit, same as to combination jumps or jump sequences)

A.P. landed 3 ltuz/2 tl, second lutz, and 3 flip/2 tl, and then second flip, both of which are very difficult jumps, and while a bit rough around the edges, her program was lovely, very enjoyable...generally, of course, at their best, IMHO Sasha, Sarah and Kwan can beat her...but they weren't their best that particular day.

[kwanlover]

I didn't see what the poster said she saw..re: Sasha acting 'pissy' in the Kiss and Cry. Sasha may have been 'pissed', but at herself, not at her scores. How can anyone claim to KNOW what a skater is FEELING? Jeeze. Now we are mind readers and telepathers. I loved Sasha's program, and if she can skate it cleanly she WILL win with that program. No one will touch her. She is really quite lovely to watch. I am a Michelle fan first and foremost, but Sasha has the program that will be the big winner IMO. She just 'has it' to me.

I liked AP, but someone needs to tell her to lay off the rouge/blush. It looked way too phoney and overly done, and the color she chose did not flatter her skin tones. Just my opinion mind you, but I really think it was way too much. I did love her dress though...fit the program beautifully.

[loveskating]

"I really don't understand these "Same old same old" comments about Michelle. No one here could or probably ever will say this about any other eligable ladies skater."

I think they have and will...it even happens in opera, even with the greatest singers possible. People even said, "I'm tired of seeing Pavarotti sing Tosca...I want him to sing something else and to see another tenor sing Cavaradossi!" and Pavarotti was among the greatest singers ever.

The problem is more that Michelle has DOMINATED skating for so long, most have not been around this long.

I'm sure there is not a skating fan alive who would not give a lot to see anyone skate like Michelle Kwan did at 2000 and 2001 Worlds, for instance...so the greatness lives on...just as any opera lover would give a gold filling to see Luciano Pavarotti sing La Boheme in his prime!

However, I think it is debatable whether or not she has pushed herself since 2000/2001...IMHO, she has peaked as an amateur.

[kara]

Hi loveskating - Don't you wish they all just lutzed or just flipped:)? I do!