Skate Canada: Only MANLY MEN need apply!

[Kelly Green]

Wow, I can't believe no one's talked about this yet:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123870938255484175.html

:twisted:

:?:

[LilJen]

Go to FSU. plenty of talk there!! I thought the US was the only country that was freaked out by male skaters who may or may not show 'feminine' traits such as wearing sequins.

[bems]

Is gay the real problem as to why fans are losing interest?

Without coverage of our sport on National Networks it is becoming second rate. I refer to the following article which shows that networks are struggling to keep the sport alive

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/story/2009/03/28/sp-scott-moore.html

Without coverage figure skating is dead. It is no longer part of our sports culture. It dies!

We can talk about branding but the real issue is that to make it to the top you need to train your butt off, incur incredible debt and sacrifice your education. With that kind of commitment and the fact that there is little opportunity to recoup your investment, it is no wonder the ranks of Canadian Seniors are dwindling!

[herniated]

I read the first article and my husband and I were discussing the same topic. Regarding the men and the costumes they wear and how it can affect participation in the sport.

Personally, I don't care if you are gay or not. There are plenty of gays in all sports but they are just not open about it. Again, I have no prob with openness. As long as you are a good person I really don't care who you want to be with. Blah..that being said back to costumes. I (and DH)think it does discourage a lot of young males and thier parents from getting started in figure skating. The costumes that is. It really bugs me when Men wear what I call man-skirts on thier costumes (no names mentioned). Those little ruffles of chiffon attached from the waist to thigh kind of things? OR mesh gloves on men? Masacara? off the shoulder styles? Come ON!! Being a gay dude does not have to mean dressing like a woman or if you are a lesbian does not mean you must dress like a guy. Hope I didn't offend -and if you enjoy cross dressing more power to ya but not on national/international TV. lol

My humble opinion. But I don't see how it can 'hurt' if the media brings out the very physical and brutal aspects of the sport. Most people think it's very fluffy and delicate and we don't suffer any injuries. HA. I think it can help show how tough skaters have to be both physically and mentally just like football players, basketball player ect. And as the article said..with NO pads.

Btw, I think some beads, stones, sequens are ok. Depending on the music.

[jazzpants]

The diminished interest in figure skating has NOTHING to do with looking gay and having to make the sport more macho.

Truth be told, it's a matter of pure economics. It's an expensive sport with not that much of an interest base! In the US, there really isn't a female skater that's tough enough of a contender for Olympic Gold here! The only hope really on the men's side here is Evan. (Sorry, Johnny! But I don't see that "focus & determination" yet!). There really isn't anyone that has a strong shot here at Olympic Gold... And with that, there's a lack of interest overall in the sport here!

If you are going into this sport, better NOT be for the "fortune & fame.". Better be b/c you love the sport!!! :twisted:

[herniated]

You are right Jazz. Economics and not having a strong women's contender is a huge part of it. But... I kinda think the fashion issue is a valid one. And the general sense that skating is easy. Uggh. Oh well!!

[dbny]

The diminished interest in figure skating has NOTHING to do with looking gay and having to make the sport more macho.

Truth be told, it's a matter of pure economics. It's an expensive sport with not that much of an interest base! In the US, there really isn't a female skater that's tough enough of a contender for Olympic Gold here! The only hope really on the men's side here is Evan. (Sorry, Johnny! But I don't see that "focus & determination" yet!). There really isn't anyone that has a strong shot here at Olympic Gold... And with that, there's a lack of interest overall in the sport here!

ITA.

I see no reason for LGBT individuals to be upset about the article, and I do not think it is saying "Only MANLY MEN Need Apply."

"Skate Canada is discouraging skaters from using too many sequins, feathers or anything else that dangles from their costumes. Adornments like that are "garish" and "distracting," says Skate Canada Chief Executive William Thompson, and belong "in an ice show, not a competition."

Note that the word "skaters" is not preceeded by "male." I happen to agree with this assessment. Save the glitz for the exhibition numbers at the end and for the shows. Some glitter is fine, but so many costumes, both men's and women's are totally overboard.

"Ms. Wilkes, Skate Canada's marketing director, told skaters they needed to give the public a better sense of how hard they worked. She said they should play up the injuries they've had and their rigorous practice schedules."

I agree with this too. Most people who've never skated think it's easy. Of course, that is the beauty of elite skaters, they make something incredibly difficult look easy. I can't tell you how many first time skaters I've taught who've said in the first 5 minutes "it looks so easy!" It can't hurt to let on how difficult it really is, and how much devotion it takes to pursue figure skating to the top levels.

As to whether parents don't want their sons doing figure skating because they think it's only for gay boys/men, well, there are some, for sure. I know some (blech!) I doubt there's much anyone can do to change that because the problem there is not the sport, it's pure bigotry. I feel very sorry for those poor boys. Undoubtably some of them are gay, and they are going to have a very hard time with their parents when they come out. The ones who are straight are probably going to hold their parents' views and deprive themselves of a lot of wonderful activities.

[bems]

Unfortunately, gays and lesbians are not counted in Census Stats!

At least that way we would know how many there are demographically and see how many contribute to the diversity and accomplishment of society. This might surprise politicians who continue to retract their rights and bury reality with zealot religious views.

Whether it be hockey, football, diving, gymnastics, figure skating, skiing, cycling, skiing, the Marines, the Navy or the population in general they are part of who we are!

If it is uncomfortable for heterosexuals to admit this is so, or if it is uncomfortable for heterosexuals to deal with reality this has to stop!

Stop branding and start accepting! Public interest in various sports including figure skating is in decline not because of gays. Unless we see all spots as part of our sports culture and give them all coverage, new interests will be found and once famous events will become irrelevant!

To suggest that being gay makes anything you touch leprous is just wrong!

[jazzpants]

"Skate Canada is discouraging skaters from using too many sequins, feathers or anything else that dangles from their costumes. Adornments like that are "garish" and "distracting," says Skate Canada Chief Executive William Thompson, and belong "in an ice show, not a competition."Yes, the way I read it -- this has nothing to do with being gay and more to do with having figure skating focus more on the SPORT aspect INSTEAD of the pretty costume and how flamboyant the guys are!!!

"Ms. Wilkes, Skate Canada's marketing director, told skaters they needed to give the public a better sense of how hard they worked. She said they should play up the injuries they've had and their rigorous practice schedules."Well, I wouldn't play up the injuries part of it THAT much. It may scare off parents from letting their kids skate actually. :P :lol:

(Truth be told, I'm trying to get more skating parents to go out there to skate with the kids, but the moms are going like "No way!!! I don't want to fall and hurt myself and then who's gonna take care of the kids?" http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/muede/s035.gif )

But yes, I would play up their training and how much time they spend on the ice, their off ice training, ballet lessons, etc. Show up how fit the elite skaters REALLY are!!! http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/n075.gif http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/p020.gif http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/n045.gif It's really a full time job in and of itself. If you look at the skater's bio (http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-195435-212658-nav-list,00.html) on the ISU website, you'll see how much time they put towards their skating.

[AgnesNitt]

The whole 'male figure skaters are gay' statement that pops out of the mouth of men is what I call 'sissyphobia'. There's a certain class of men that won't ever figure skate because it means doing something that women do--and therefore they'll never do it because only 'sissies' do what women do. This is not a rational decision--this kind of man will only do what other men approve of---in order not to be thought 'gay'. You can't change their minds.

If I was making ads to attract guys, I'd do close up slo-mos of male skaters doing -- oh say a triple, and focus on their faces as the g force distorts it. Then a slo-mo of a skater's body or hip hitting the ice in a fall, distorting as the pressure waves go through the flesh. Then switch to fast close in ice dance foot work--that suddenly slows so you can see the blades nearly nicking the partner. Finally, a picture of a man's muscular torso rippling under a tight shirt, with a pull back to show he' got a woman over his head in a one handed hold. This kind of slo-mo focus on men's faces, bodies and strength is how men's sports are advertised.
Then at the end, the line "Figure Skating--CAN you hack it?" The music should be hard driving rock with the cuts timed to the beat--GWOS.
This should only play during hockey games in CAN or football games in the US.

[jazzpants]

Nice commercial idea, Agnes, but going against the stereotype is gonna be a tough battle.

Does mean though that the fight shouldn't be fought though. In this magazine article (http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=sports&conitem=3c12d36265f1f110VgnVCM10000013281eac____), they are fighting against the stereotype. (Yes, this is in the March 2009 Men's Health magazine... it's definitely targeting towards hetero men in the 20-45 demographic. I'm definitely looking forward to watching him skate and hopefully meeting him in about a couple of weeks at said competition...since I'll be competing there too. 8-) ) :bow: :bow: :bow:

BTW: The article doesn't say, but if this guy is single... ummmm... not for long!!! :twisted: :P :lol: (NO!!! NOT ME!!! I'm just saying that he will be quite a popular guy amongst a lot of single and available women at the comp...)

[dbny]

Then at the end, the line "Figure Skating--CAN you hack it?"

You are an advertising genius, and we can only wish that someone who could actually do this would read your post! One little niggle - I would have the line go "Figure Skating -- Can YOU hack it?

In this magazine article (http://www.menshealth.com/cda/article.do?site=MensHealth&channel=fitness&category=sports&conitem=3c12d36265f1f110VgnVCM10000013281eac____), they are fighting against the stereotype.

Great article. Thanks for posting that, and maybe you could also post the article separately in this forum. I think that guy is not only dedicated, but also very talented. I'm jealous.

[Artemis]

FYI, although this particular article is more recent, it's along the same theme as this discussion from the Canada forum back in January:

http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=27926

[wasamb]

AgnesNitt, ITA with your add suggestion.

About the worry over the 'gay' perception, haven't there have been effeminate male skaters around a lot longer than the recent drop in popularity? Also, society seems to be more accepting of different lifestyles than it used to be. I can't see the "gay" thing be the only reason for the drop in popularity.

From personal experience, I lost interest in watching skating for awhile when skating became mostly jumping. Since I didn't figure skate I couldn't tell one jump from another, so I had no appreciation of the difficulty of some of the jumps. Not to sidetrack the discussion to judging systems, but now that more footwork, etc. is required, I find watching figure skating much more interesting. Plus I can now tell the jumps apart.:)

Another problem is the lack of coverage in media other than TV. Even though the Canadian skaters did really well at Worlds and could realistically hope for the medals they attained, newspaper coverage was only a few articles on the final results on the second page of the sports section in my city. I'm sure there must be a few stories they could print about the various skaters before the big events to pique interest. Kids don't get a chance to have a skating hero!

[Mariko88]

We can talk about branding but the real issue is that to make it to the top you need to train your butt off, incur incredible debt and sacrifice your education. With that kind of commitment and the fact that there is little opportunity to recoup your investment, it is no wonder the ranks of Canadian Seniors are dwindling!

Well someone is bitter. I take it your in debt, not well educated, and never trained enough? :lol:

[Mariko88]

The whole 'male figure skaters are gay' statement that pops out of the mouth of men is what I call 'sissyphobia'. There's a certain class of men that won't ever figure skate because it means doing something that women do--and therefore they'll never do it because only 'sissies' do what women do. This is not a rational decision--this kind of man will only do what other men approve of---in order not to be thought 'gay'. You can't change their minds.

If I was making ads to attract guys, I'd do close up slo-mos of male skaters doing -- oh say a triple, and focus on their faces as the g force distorts it. Then a slo-mo of a skater's body or hip hitting the ice in a fall, distorting as the pressure waves go through the flesh. Then switch to fast close in ice dance foot work--that suddenly slows so you can see the blades nearly nicking the partner. Finally, a picture of a man's muscular torso rippling under a tight shirt, with a pull back to show he' got a woman over his head in a one handed hold. This kind of slo-mo focus on men's faces, bodies and strength is how men's sports are advertised.
Then at the end, the line "Figure Skating--CAN you hack it?" The music should be hard driving rock with the cuts timed to the beat--GWOS.
This should only play during hockey games in CAN or football games in the US.

That would work, and get the Gay community all fired up on the sport too! Nice work

[dbny]

Well someone is bitter. I take it your in debt, not well educated, and never trained enough? :lol:

It doesn't sound bitter to me at all. Just realistic. Someone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're" shouldn't be calling other people "not well educated."

[jazzpants]

Someone who doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're" shouldn't be calling other people "not well educated."AMEN to that, dbny!!! :P :lol: :bow:

"Pot... Kettle... BLACK!!!" :twisted:

You don't want me going on my soapbox about the usage of your vs. you're (never mind "u r.") Trust me, you don't want me to go there!!! :twisted:

Getting back... nah... I think we just need a HUGE group of skaters with HUGE potential to win the Olympic Gold, ESPECIALLY in the Ladies FS realm!!! We sorely are lacking in that area in the US and except for Joannie Rochette, I'm guessing Canada is lacking that too. We're getting clobbered by the Japanese and the Koreans girls!!! We also need a better economy to accommodate the interest too!!!

Want more people coming back to the sport for your country? Get your country to get more talented skaters out there that WIN World titles!!! That's how you build excitement (and therefore viewership) for the sport!!!

Hell, bring Michelle and Sasha back!!! :P :lol:

[bems]

Great debate everybody!

For the information of Mariko88, I have been involved with the sport for over thirty years without never having been a skater myself. I am stating the reality of someone who has seen great talent struggle rise and fall. I have raised funds to help many skaters who otherwise would have never had the means to do so. I have volunteered too many hours to count to ensure the sport continues. Maiko88, you too may have a love and a background for the sport, if so go out volunteer and fund raise but do not take cheap shots! It's up to you.

Getting coverage of any sport in front of the public eye keeps it alive and real! While it is fresh, in the moment and live, it keeps interest and pays for advertising (without which there would be no coverage)!

As for the gay and lesbian element, next time you see a football player leap into the arms of another or see a hockey player put his/her arm around another and rough up their hair or see two female swimmers give each other a hug, make no mistake all this is a celebration of sport!

[Mariko88]

Great debate everybody!

For the information of Mariko88, I have been involved with the sport for over thirty years without never having been a skater myself. I am stating the reality of someone who has seen great talent struggle rise and fall. I have raised funds to help many skaters who otherwise would have never had the means to do so. I have volunteered too many hours to count to ensure the sport continues. Maiko88, you too may have a love and a background for the sport, if so go out volunteer and fund raise but do not take cheap shots! It's up to you.

Getting coverage of any sport in front of the public eye keeps it alive and real! While it is fresh, in the moment and live, it keeps interest and pays for advertising (without which there would be no coverage)!

As for the gay and lesbian element, next time you see a football player leap into the arms of another or see a hockey player put his/her arm around another and rough up their hair or see two female swimmers give each other a hug, make no mistake all this is a celebration of sport!

Ouch, getting me with my grammar, as it's not my first language I do my best, so thank you for correcting me, what a wonderful person you are.

[dbny]

There are many people here for whom English is not their first language. Some of them don't tell us that.

[jazzpants]

There are many people here for whom English is not their first language. Some of them don't tell us that.
True. That's why I didn't go on the soapbox! (Aside from that, takes too much time! :lol: ) That said, you'd be surprised how many "very educated people" here in the US still doesn't get "your" from "you're"!!! :rolleyes: (*cough* an ex-boss who is a blond haired, blue eyed American-born guy... and whose first language IS English! *cough* :twisted: No, NOT my last ex-boss! He's brunette.)

Mariko: I meant no mean spirit towards you in that comment. I apologize if you took it that way.

I speak as a competitive skater and a skating fan. I'm frankly bored with watching skating on TV these days. Sure we got some very talented skaters, but aside from Evan and B&A on the ice dancing end, can we count on anyone in the US to be one of the WORLD'S best and even getting an Olympic medals?

As for the financial end of things, I know how much I spend on my own training and how much time I need to spend practicing on ice.

[bems]

Great dialogue.

It would be sad to see this great sport die because of issues like branding, lack of commitment to network coverage and not empathizing with the hardships our skaters face!

In these times, this sport needs all the fans and support it can get.

Since 1896 when World's started in St Petersburg skaters, fans and volunteers have worked hard to create a legacy.

We may have our views and our favorites. Let us not abandon a sport that requires not only technical merit but wins our hearts with presentation!

[AgnesNitt]

Scenes of a trim man with well developed legs and shoulders first doing pylometrics, running, then weight lifting. Then a slo mo picture of him taking three steps on a mat up into a jump-twist.
Followed by: Scenes of a woman in a deep yoga pose, followed by running, pylometrics, then three step on a mat up into a jump twist.
Hard cut to a tracking shot of the couple skating side by side into simultaneous axels.
Tag line: Pair Skating--two as one--Can you take the challenge?

The ice dancing one is as follows:
Male and female ice dancers demonstrating some intricate footwork--NOT the finnstep maybe a fast tango or mambo--with a transition into one of those elaborate lifts Kerr and Kerr do so well--woman upside down, guy holding her up by the toepick ;) or some other mind boggling hold.
Tag line: Ice Dancing: Where the men are strong, and the women damn flexible.....Step up to a lifetime of sport

[jazzpants]

Scenes of a trim man with well developed legs and shoulders first doing pylometrics, running, then weight lifting. Then a slo mo picture of him taking three steps on a mat up into a jump-twist.
Ummm... how many male pair skaters actually can do that??? 8O

I got an old, sexist but funny spoof...

Have a guy about to go into a pair tryout... with a bunch of his males friends hassling him to drop the tryout and says "Stop being a sissy! Let's get some beer instead!" Then a group of pretty young women (perspective pairs partners) is about to go in. One of them spots the Male Pair Skaters and says "Hey! <Male Pairs Skater's Name>! Aren't you going in for the tryout too?" in this flirty tone. Male Pair Skater smiles and says "Yeah! I'll be right there!" and then tell the guys "Maybe next time! I gotta go..." and walks in with the group of young women, all joking around and talking.

The other guy are eye the group of pretty young women like 8O, then they look at each other... and then all of them rush into the rink to go into the pairs tryout instead... :P

[dbny]

Not sexist at all. Just human (male) nature :lol:.

[Query]

Most gals don't go to ice rinks to flirt with guys (in the U.S.). Quite possibly, the gals who go make the same assumptions.

Most guys don't picture ourselves in glitter, lace and floral prints. That's what we see if we watched the ISU championships. Relative few have the flexibility needed to skate at all well; those that do can do gymnastics or break dance, which have less association with paisly, and anyone can find more social things to do (swing, salsa, frat parties, etc.).

If you want more guys, set up inexpensive programs of easy line and called dances that ordinary people can learn in a few weeks - more like ballroom dance lessons. Or try to create something closer to onice swing or salsa lessons.

When I've suggested this before people come up with reasons it can't be done. Or don't like the idea of dummying down ice skating. But that's how you attract the masses.

[wasamb]

I know a local dance school that offers a huge discount for male students.

[jazzpants]

Most gals don't go to ice rinks to flirt with guys (in the U.S.).Yes, but the other way around I have seen!!! (I know of at least a couple of guys in my neck of the woods who not only take figure skating but either pairs or ice dancing specifically to meet women!!!) That was my point of my analogy... throw a pretty girl in the mix of a bunch of young single heterosexual hormonal guys up their way...and watch the silliness go!!! :twisted: :lol: :P

Dummying down ice dance.. tee hee hee... I could see the book titles now -- "The Fourteen Step -- 14 Easy Steps", "Willow Waltz made Easy", "Dutch Waltz for Dummies" :P :lol:

[sk8tmum]

My DS, who is a serious skater, and is also tall, well-built, and dresses in UnderArmour, sweaty t-shirts and the like to skate in and has totally masculine skating costumes (not a sequin, rhinestone, lace, illusion or other fluff to be seen); is generally covered in bruises, cuts and scrapes; and has girls flirting with him around school and arena, has swayed more than a few parents into thinking that skating isn't scary. They watch his skating skills on LTS sessions, where he coaches, and come back to watch him jump and work on the ice. Hard-core hockey dads are blown away to see what figure skating actually is. We're starting to see some of the benefit on our rink as a few more boys are venturing onto toepicks. It's not all him, of course, but it does help parents to see a role model of sorts.

I've seen crowds of skateboarder boys standing with their mouths hanging open when they see him hit a jump at high speed and either land it or crash it down on the ice and pick up and skate away. He gets respect from them now ...

They showed a video of a practice and competition in his class at school after some teasing. After they saw it, things changed. The kids thought that figure-skating was pretty twirling on ice in sparkly costumes; they didn't know it was an extreme sport. It worked.

When you see the finished product on the ice and it looks elegant and graceful and all that, you don't realize the pain,sweat and effort it takes to get there - the weights, the training, the injuries. If people don't know, you can't expect them to appreciate it. So, hey, let them see how hard our skaters work to get to where they are!

[Mariko88]

they didn't know it was an extreme sport.

I like the details of the story, but I wouldn't class figure skating as an extreme sport.:)

[dbny]

When I've suggested this before people come up with reasons it can't be done. Or don't like the idea of dummying down ice skating. But that's how you attract the masses.

How about the Hokey Pokey? :lol::lol::lol: Even that's probably too difficult for the masses, at least on ice.

I like the details of the story, but I wouldn't class figure skating as an extreme sport.:)

It's a lot more extreme than hockey - they get to wear helmets and padding all over.

[Mariko88]

It's a lot more extreme than hockey - they get to wear helmets and padding all over.

Where in my reply did I say Hockey was an extreme sport?

[sk8tmum]

Extreme sports (also called action sport and adventure sport) is a media term for certain activities perceived as having a high level of inherent danger.[1][2][3] These activities often involve speed, height, high level of physical exertion, highly specialized gear or spectacular stunts.[1]

At present date, there are no careful studies or statistics of deaths to separate activities with low or normal level of danger from those with high level of danger. It is instead used as a marketing term in promoting events such as the X Games.


Well, if they're now calling skateboarding and snowboarding extreme sports(and some are) then, I would think that figure skating (freeskating) qualifies. Given the risk of serious injury involved; the definite need for specialized equipment; and high levels of physical fitness and exertion ... it would depend on the degree to which you participate. BMX biking can be a recreational sport, or an extreme sport.

I think going after double axels, fflying arabians, or triple jumps at high speed; or throwing a girl through the air in pairs - ! would qualify. It certainly isn't a low or normal level of danger - and I've got the medical history for my kid to prove it :). But, that's just me, although, I've heard others refer to it that way, in fact, I think Skate Canada did in one media blurb or another (I could be wrong, I'm far from perfect).

[FigureSk8Dad]

I like the details of the story, but I wouldn't class figure skating as an extreme sport.:)


Mariko88, I'm certain there are many skaters that would disagree with you. Jessica Dube, for one, comes to mind.

sk8tmum is right on target. Anyone that has stood near the boards when a pairs team has skated by performing a lift or throw can understand the sheer power, danger, and skills involved in the sport. The same is true for triple jumps and I can't even imagine the physical efforts involved in performing the simplest of quads. Indeed, this can be a very extreme sport.

This all goes right back to the intent of this thread. The sport has been packaged as all glitz and twirls. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the edges, glides and spins just as much as the jumps. But the general public only sees this. As funny as Blades of Glory was, it only continued the stereotyping of figure skating as an exhibition and not a true sport. We all know different, because we are involved in it everyday.

AgnesNitt has it right. Show how difficult, dangerous and exhilerating the sport can be, and it will gain respect by the general public. The sport doesn't have to lose the beauty and elegance that makes it so wonderful. Afterall, that is what I find most satisfying about my dd's skating, more so than her jumps. But, the marketing needs a major overhaul if the sport is to survive.

[dbny]

Where in my reply did I say Hockey was an extreme sport?

I did not write that to argue with you, it was not personal.