Q. about new judging system

[Artemis]

Ok, I'll admit to not keeping up on this because I was just so exhausted from the monkeyshines of the 01/02 season, but ... I've read a few articles about the new judging system, and there's one bit I still can't figure out: When the computer randomly picks 7 out of 14 judges for their marks to "count," will it be the same 7 judges for all skaters in the event?

TIA

[Emilieanne]

From what I understand (any of you "wizards" out there correct me if I am wrong here), the judges are randomly selected at the beginning of the event (or section thereof) and those same judges judge the entire event (or section thereof). The entire panel (14 judges) do not know whether their scores are selected or not.

[Judyith Katie]

from what i've heard the same judges judge the entire event, but the computer will randomly select seven of the 14 scores each time they are put in, so it will be different judges for each skater, even though the judging panal doesn't change, hope that makes sense.

[BigB0882]

They won't be using different judges for different skaters. They will randomly select the seven judges to use at the beginning, and their scores will be used the whole event. The other seven will also judge, but not knowing that their scores will go unused the entire competition. Using different judges for different skaters is comparing apples and oranges. You could have tied placements and all sorts of things could go wrong.

[Artemis]

Originally posted by BigB0882
Using different judges for different skaters is comparing apples and oranges. You could have tied placements and all sorts of things could go wrong.

ITA ... which is why I asked the question. And hey, this is the ISU we're talking about here. Nothing would have surprised me. But I'm relieved to hear that they've got that bit right at least!

[hoptoad]

Another question: is it still the ordinals that those 7 judges assign that will count?

I heard something about listing the scores in numerical order, but disassociating the first and second mark would make no sense. Listing for whom? for TV? Will this be the end of icecalc?

[BigB0882]

Originally posted by hoptoad
Another question: is it still the ordinals that those 7 judges assign that will count?

I heard something about listing the scores in numerical order, but disassociating the first and second mark would make no sense. Listing for whom? for TV? Will this be the end of icecalc?

I heard they did this recently at a summer competition, was it Nebelhorn or something? This could actually allow judges to cheat. If they list the scores in numerical order, then a judge could give the first skater out a very low score or a very high score, and they could see if their scores pop up. They could also talk to other judges before the competition, and agree on giving the first skater a score that is .3 above or below the average (which they let the judges know for the first skater) and then they could see who all is on the panel and then bloc judge from there. Does that make any sense?

The dumbest thing of all is that a skater who receives only 5 of the 14 judges 1st place ordinals could win if all 5 of those judges are chosen for the panel. This makes the sport much too much like gambling. In the end, it is a roll of the dice, a lottery system who determines the winner.

[Scott]

I wonder iof the rules for judging a re posted anywhere. This is all so confussing. I read an article which quoted Garrett Lucash concerning this new system ( they used it at Neblehorn) and as I remember his comments he didn't like it because he couldn't tell how he and Katie were stacking up with the individual judges. The marks were scrambled.
It will be interesting to see how ABC/ESPN deal with this marks when they are posted.

[hydro]

i have a question though. wouldn't the judges know what that the system is using their marks as the competition went on? for example, say a judge gave a skater a 5.0, 5.1 to the first skater. those marks would be posted somewhere, correct? and then for the next skater he gave 5.0, 5.3. again, the marks being posted somewhere. eventually, he'd find out that he was indeed one of the judges on the panel. in fact, everyone of the judges would figure out if their marks were being included or not. by the time the last group of skaters comes on the ice, the judges know they can form blocs, etc. it doesn't stop toe-tapping instances either.

[Artemis]

Hydro, I think the safeguard in that scenario is that although each individual judge will eventually be able to figure out whether or not she or he is being "used," they won't know who else is. Even if they arranged some kind of signal ("I'm on" or "I'm off), to set up a block they'd have to work out all kinds of permutations about which combination of judges are being recorded. So it would be much, much harder to arrange a fix.

[Leanne]

No, the judges can't figure it out who is being used, because they posting all 14 marks for each skater throughout the competition, not just the 9 they are counting. The marks are posted in scrambed ascending order for tech and pres -- no pairs of marks so it is also impossible to figure out placements/ordinals.

[Artemis]

Wow, I'm surprised they went that far!

It will be interesting, though, to see how skaters feel about this, especially if they're able to see marks posted that eventually get tossed out but would have placed them higher.

[fgrsktr9274]

Our sport has changed so much in just the 25 years that I have been skating. We've lost figures and added triple jumps. Skaters are 16 when they go to the Olympics and not 24. However, many of us, still do not like what changes have occurred and we never will. The point is that the change in the judging system is HUGE and won't easily be accepted by anyone anywhere - if it ever is at all. The fact is, however, that it will happen and there is nothing that we can do about it. It is ridiculous to say that you won't attend events or to mock what was once considered the Eastern Block Countries. Chances are that a great many of them aren't that thrilled for the same reason that you're not. Canada and the USA creating a federation - look in the dictionary at some point. That may or may not be a good thing. It is awful that a group of people have ruined it for the rest of us. We need to work to make it better and not act out like kids and make it worse. Skating has always been a controversial sport....ALWAYS. Scoring at any level has been complained about continuously. The only change is that it is no longer behind closed doors. The media has put all the dirty laundry right out there. Nothing has really changed. This kind of behavior isn't new to the sport. So, make your opinions known. Have your friends make their opinions known. Support your sport...it isn't the skaters fault that all this happens. As one person said - they are doing their job just like each one of us does each and everyday. Avoiding events isn't helping anyone....