How to Appeal to Boys??? [Archive]

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Pandora

03-29-2008, 09:30 AM

Apologize if this has been discussed before, I looked through the boards, but couldn't find anything about it....(but I could have missed it.)
As you know, the clubs are full of young girls, but the boys (their parents?) are not very interested in figure skating...(I think primarily due to a certain "perception" which also is also applied to males in ballet, theater etc). Also, as a lady at the club pointed out, there aren't any scholarships for figure skating, so parents are much more interested in getting their kids (boys and girls :!: ) into hockey in order to get them into colleges....
True Story: Was a rink about a year ago. Practicing during session. (Jumping). There were a few kids there. Anyway... boy (about 10) starts following me around rink. I jump. He jumps. (Mind you, he is in hockey skates.) I'm like "Oh great!" Suddenly he does an "axel." (Takes off forward on two feet, 1/12 revs, lands backward, 2 foot). I'm like WOW!!!8O Then his Mom comes up. (Don't blame her, if I had a kid, I wouldn't want him talking to strangers). I told her he was excellent and should have lessons. She said her daughter takes figure skating, her son plays hockey. (Yes, she emphasized the words.:roll: ) Then told him to practice his hockey moves....May have been the next Evan (or Johnny), but.....:(
Yes, I know she was a ... (just deleted what I wrote ;) )....wrong. But do you guys/gals know anyway of appealing to more boys/men? Evan suggested the extreme skating idea. Do you think scholarships might help? Any other ideas?

onlyhappyonice

03-29-2008, 09:34 AM

smelltheice

03-29-2008, 09:43 AM

It may not appeal to the much younger kids but when guys get to that age that they notice girls, it may look like a more appealing sport if it it wsn't for their piers/parents who are prejudiced by the stereotypical attitudes of people and what people will say

Pandora

03-29-2008, 09:57 AM

onlyhappyonice

03-29-2008, 10:04 AM

Yes, you are right, "extreme skating" is not really figure skating...so it does kind of defeat the purpose...:(
More masculine role models might be the answer. (Think the establishment might already be on to this. Why they promote Evan so strongly...;) )
Actually, this might be more of a parent/ teenage peer group, related thing...
One of the rinks I practice at is a college rink and there are a few "adult" (college men), who have taken basic figure skating as a credit course and continued because they liked it. :D

I'm 27 and loved the look of extreme ice skating up until quite recently, now I am literally selling my hockey skates on fleabay (they're on there as we speak) and buying myself some figures... I already have speed and power but they're nowhere near as interesting as a simple three turn or mohawk, and the possibility that one day I will land a proper jump is just so exciting to me :)

Pandora

03-29-2008, 10:24 AM

Excellent!!!! :) :) :) Don't worry about the jumps. You will do very well with a pair of figure skates once you get used to them. Hockey skates aren't made to jump in, (not our jumps anyway). That's why I was so amazed by the kid's "axel," (even 2 footed)!!!
I never really understood why it's regarded as a "sissy" sport. (Obviously these people have never fell out of a jump on ice.) Must be something to do with the rheinstones and feathers....;)
So you came to figure skating as an adult....(like the college guys I mentioned)....Um...Something there. When guys get to actually jump/spin they appreciate figure skating as difficult and like it, but most don't even get to that point because of the sterotypes against it. What made you interested? The idea of extreme skating? If so, Evan's idea could work as a "gateway," so to speak, like it did with you.

slusher

03-29-2008, 11:32 AM

I just asked the Boy walking by,stumbling and incoherent as teenagers do not rise before noon usually. "How do you get boys interested in figure skating?" It mumbled: "tell them they'll do better in hockey". He's got a game today and more than a few figure skating medals.

They have to see someone else doing it though. There's a herd mentality in men.

CanAmSk8ter

03-29-2008, 12:06 PM

One thing that popped into my head right away is that learn-to-skate programs need to have more male instructors who are figure skaters. So many LTS instructors are female, and if there is a male, a lot of times he's a hockey player teaching the Snowplow/Basic 1-2 classes. I think that reinforces, both to little guys and their parents, that figure skating is for girls and boys are supposed to play hockey. Every director I've ever coached under is thrilled to have a male figure skater on staff.

Honestly, though, I think society would have to change for male figure skating to become truly "acceptable" in the wider sense. Skating involves too many things that our culture generally associates with femininity- from the aesthetic, ballet-like aspect to the clothing. Until the men wearing the plain, Scott Hamilton-type outfits and skating to stronger music (I don't know exactly how to explain what I mean about the music, but I think most of you probably understand) are the majority, I think a lot of parents are going to see figure skating as something they'd rather not involve their sons in. I'm not saying that's right, but when we're talking about a parent who knows nothing about the sport except what he/she has seen on TV, I think that's the feeling a lot of them have. And that's where a male learn-to-skate instructor can come in handy as far as changing parents' perceptions (provided he doesn't show up to teach wearng sparkles and makeup ;) ).

SynchroSk8r114

03-29-2008, 01:05 PM

Who says there aren't any skating scholarships out there?! Here's a few I found just by punching "figure skating AND scholarships" into google:

Through the USFS:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=125
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=127
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Athletes.asp?id=128 (I know two people in this photo who have won this)

SkaterSupport.org:
http://www.skatersupport.org/generaltrainingfunds.html

Also, there are colleges and universities that offer scholarships for skating, especially synchro, although they are sometimes hard to find because the sport at that level is often student-run and a club sport. You'd have to talk to different schools to see their policies.

I do know that for, synchro at least, Miami University of Ohio is one of the best for helping skaters out financially. I believe they buy their skaters custom pairs of Riedell skates and currently is one of two Varsity (funded) schools for skating. Of course, you have to consider that the chances of making it on any of Miami's teams is very competitive. A friend of mine who skates for them says that they prefer you have to Golds, but hey...if you're willing to go for it, go for it. Info here: http://muredhawks.cstv.com/sports/w-syncssk/mioh-w-syncssk-body.html.

Adrian College also has some good perks for skaters. Along with Miami U, Adrian College is the only other school that considers synchro/skating a Varsity sport, so they fund their skaters quite well too. Info here: http://www.adrian.edu/sports/synch.php.

Pandora

03-29-2008, 01:46 PM

Wow!! That's great!! Glad she was wrong about the scholarships! Maybe that will help get more people interested....(Boys, too!) Need to get the word out, though. (Not sure if a lot of people know about this). :?: Do they?
Yes, I think male coaches/role models are definitely a good way of getting boys to enter.
And if there was some sort of "gateway." Like slusher said, if you can convince them that they will do better in hockey, they might just give it a try....(to help the hockey, of course). Once they're in, we can "hook" them. Soon they're be addicted....Ok. Maybe I'm getting carried away here.;) But if we can find someway to get them started and if there were male coaches so the boys, (and their parents), could relate to it a bit more.....
Of course, like you said, the "artistic" aspect might still scare them off.....um....

LilJen

03-29-2008, 03:36 PM

There are definitely scholarships available. Ours is a small club, but even we have a fund that offers scholarships every year. And yeah, if you're a smart heterosexual boy, you'll realize that girls SWOON over the guy figure skaters in a way they never would for hockey players!

Pandora

03-29-2008, 04:20 PM

That is so true!!!! Yet another way to appeal to them!!! (Well, some of them ;) ) It would be nice to get more boys in the sport if anything because I see so many girls who skate dance (or would like to try pairs) and have to fight to find that one available guy. (Look guys, you can have girls fighting over you!!!) Several of the adults I know would love to have a dance partner but can't find one because of lack of men. Sad.:(

sk8tmum

03-29-2008, 09:30 PM

Not just guy coaches ... but coaches who like to teach BOYS. Boys learn differently than girls; boys respond differently than girls; boys are built differently than girls.

DS found that some of the coaches didn't like to teach "little boys" because they were, well, smelly little boys and not cute little girls. They didn't know how to talk to a boy. They didn't realize that boys are built differently, and they would get frustrated when he didn't learn the ways the girls did.

Current coach is female, but she 'gets' boys. How did she fix his landing position? told him to land like he was P**ing over a fence. it made sense. She knows he's not going to have hips and chesticles - and that he's got a different body proportion, a different muscoskeletal configuration, and a different mind. She speaks boy.

Not all guy coaches speak 'boy' maybe because they were coached by women - ?

Also, she does NOT allow him to be tricked out in feathers, rhinestones, or bright blue spandex. As parents, that helps out - a lot.

Plus, she's been doing this for so long that she knows the pitfalls of a boy skater, and can talk him thru the harassment, teasing, and can coach thru the difference in puberty from a boy vs a girl.

So. He's still going strong; and he's one of the few who are still in there. And he looks like a boy on the ice, is choreographed like a boy, and dressed like a boy. Other parents are noticing him, and we're getting more positive feedback from parents on the idea of "a boy" figure skating, because there's a masculine boy on the ice, who pushes the limit of aggressive skating (jump, crash, jump, crash, jump ... go fast, go fast, jump, crash, etc) - and who is very well-muscled and well-built. The role model thing works - !

Bogie88

03-30-2008, 01:59 AM

I was talking about this subject to someone the other day. A lot of people talk about getting boys interested in figure skating, but less talked about is retention of the boys currently involved in the sport. Let's face it, there's always a ton of girls in the sport, but the few numbers of boys perhaps need special encouragement. Here are some of the problems I see:

Money: It's easy to approach local businesses for sponsorships with pictures of your cute little daughter in a skating dress, but it is a whole different thing to bring in a picture of your son in his cute little...well, you can visualize how that might go over at the local car dealership. Boys also usually start later, and develop their skills later, so they are not so cute by the time the parents realize they need sponsorship help. A few lucky boys out there have sponsors, but I know national medalists that basically take their skating on a year-to-year basis to make sure that they can afford another year of skating. Money is the root of all success in skating, and no matter how talented a skater is, he cannot get there without money. Since not everyone in skating is rich, we lose a lot of boys this way. Solution: I wish I knew. Lots of skaters have websites where you can donate money for training, lots of skaters are on skatersupport.org, and I'm sure many boys apply for the scholarships listed uplist, plus the Michael Weiss Foundation and local club scholarships. Only a few get that money, though.

Age: Because boys start achieving success and earning international assignments at a later age than girls, they are at a transitional time in their lives as far as college, cars, and dating activities go when they most need to push for the next level. Most girls already know where they are going in the sport by the time the college years approach, and can plan accordingly, but many boys have to make some tough decisions just as they reach their prime years for skating development. We lose a lot of boys this way as well. Solution: I have no idea, since life is what it is. The shrinking pool of opportunities for international assignments does not help. A late-bloomer like Jeremy Abbott is rare, and perhaps he could be enlisted to give pep talks to guys who need to hear that it's worth it to hang in there!

Pairs/Dance: Many boys who have difficulty getting the harder triples could have great careers in pairs, especially if they are tall and strong. If you look on icepartnersearch.com, there are certainly a lot of girls seeking partners. Solution: More encouragement for boys to explore pairs and dance. Maybe US Figure Skating could put together regional seminars for boys to give pairs or dance a try. The future of US pairs and dance shouldn't be left to random chance!

Anyway, I don't have a lot of solutions, but I just wanted to point out that there are a lot of problems for boys who are already in the sport, and these problems aren't related to the usual concerns about public perception and parental squeamishness. There are many boys in skating who are passionate about what they do, and just need a little extra help or encouragement to stick with it.

CanAmSk8ter

03-30-2008, 10:16 AM

Not just guy coaches ... but coaches who like to teach BOYS. Boys learn differently than girls; boys respond differently than girls; boys are built differently than girls.

DS found that some of the coaches didn't like to teach "little boys" because they were, well, smelly little boys and not cute little girls. They didn't know how to talk to a boy. They didn't realize that boys are built differently, and they would get frustrated when he didn't learn the ways the girls did.

That's a really good point. I don't know why, I've always really enjoyed working with the little guys. In eight years of teaching, my favorite learn-to-skate class ever was an all-boy Snowplow class of eight four-and five-year-olds. Very different from a class of eight girls the same age! Seeing a five-year-old boy in his "good" pants and a button-down shirt for his first competition is every bit as much fun for me as seeing the little girls all dressed up. (Note: as much as the boys may scowl and complain about the clothes, the're generally as pleased as the girls are to hear how nice and grown-up they look).

One other thing that annoys me is when a boy who wants to figure skate and play hockey is discouraged by one or both coaches. I think most (not all) hockey coaches are smart enough to realize that figure skating is actually going to help, but I've heard a lot of stories about figure skating coaches trying to convince a kid to drop hockey for various reasons. Other than time and financial constraints, there's no reason for this- playing hockey is not going to harm the kid's figure skating technique. I know if I were a fifteen-year-old boy at a point where I had to choose between high-school varsity hockey and putting in the time to get the triples, and my figure skating coach had been discouraging hockey for years, but most of my hockey coaches had been supportive of me doing both, I'd be more inclined to choose hockey.

smelltheice

03-30-2008, 10:35 AM

We had a guy in the UK "Dancing on Ice" tv show who was famous as a soap actor but was also an amateur hockey player and while he had never done figure, his experience on the ice had mad him very comfortable on the ice so there wasn't that 'never skated' apprehension you see from new skaters. The irony is he didn't win but he did an axel after a few months of skating and granted it was a 2 footed landing but his hockey ice time helped his comfort on ice and his confidence

slusher

03-30-2008, 10:59 AM

One other thing that annoys me is when a boy who wants to figure skate and play hockey is discouraged by one or both coaches. I think most (not all) hockey coaches are smart enough to realize that figure skating is actually going to help, but I've heard a lot of stories about figure skating coaches trying to convince a kid to drop hockey for various reasons.

Yes, that is our experience also. The hockey coach loved that he figure skated and he got some allowances for having to be away for competition and he is by far the best skater on the team. The figure skating coach, who is a guy btw, was very negative on hockey at the beginning and said that he would allow my son to do both, but he wouldn't be able to be a competitive figure skater and do both. That was an easy call, we couldn't afford travel hockey and competitive figure skating anyway. As the years passed and he didn't grow into a six foot two, two hundred pound defenseman, figure skating became more fun and he found a lot of satisfaction in doing the Starskate route and getting some tests. The coach has been re-educated by our experience, he has a couple of girls that figure skate and are also playing women's hockey. With the drop off in numbers of figure skating, they can't be too choosey anymore about dropping skaters either.

Pandora

03-30-2008, 04:35 PM

These are great observations/suggetions. A lot of it I hadn't thought of before. (Like differences teaching boys and girls/ Figure skating or Hockey coach not wanting to "share" students etc.)
Also noticed another thing. Doesn't seem to be much "media coverage" of it in the "real" sports world. Usually can't find anything in sports section of local paper except small blurb during nationals or worlds. Usually no pictures. :(
Even in national papers (e.g.USA Today) there usually isn't anything.......O.K. every Olympics there is that picture of one of the ladies doing a layback or Beilman, but that's about it....Know what I mean? It seems that the sportsworld doesn't really take skating seriously. (Not a "real" sport). Check out this interview with Johnny. It is sad, but funny at the same time. Sportsguy interview dude, (probably ex-football player) looks kind of unconfortable, or is it just me? Love the rheinstones on Johnny. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9O54nH0R1Tw
Note: Johnny fans watch interview because it really is interesting. Johnny talks a lot about himself and his skating. Very cool interview.
Anyways, if the media took it more seriously as a sport, maybe that would help.

sk8tmum

03-30-2008, 07:34 PM

Actually, that's something else that I was going to mention: not the lack of media attention, etc., but the surfeit of it.

Because DS is basically one of the only boys, he gets into every media interview, photo shot - the key spotlight spot in carnival - introduced to visiting celebrities, etc., and is very uncomfortable to be trotted out like the novelty act.

That's a comment I've heard from other boys: the pressure from girls/mothers/coaches to DO PAIRS AND DANCE because of the boy shortage (I'm serious, he's been quasi-stalked by a few aggressive sorts, to the point that he wouldn't go into the dressing room without his sister or dad along); the feeling that they are being watched because they are so unusual on the ice, etc...

Adolescence is hard enough without feeling like you're the centre of attention and, again, letting down all of the girls who are desperate to dance, pair etc., and tell him so. It's often uncomfortable.

Hydroblade

03-30-2008, 09:24 PM

Well being a guy I couldn't help but comment,

I think that the sport will never "a guy sport" in the eyes of most epople when we have very feminine male skaters, doing what they do. I love to watch the beautiful lines of Johhny Wier, but his outfits and music choices are going to be a complete turn-off for non-skating families that know nothing about the sport.

I think alot of guys don't notice untill they leave the sport (if they start at all), how many pretty girls seem to hang around figureskating ice on a daily basis.

The sport is also really expensive like what was said earlier, and being a competitive ice dancer, trust me i feel the bills:frus: And this will keep alot of regular families from keeping their kids in the sport.

But in the plus side, I've been seeing alot more guys at my rink nowadays than I used to! I think it's because of show like "so you think you can dance" are helping break streotypes of male dancers and skater alike.

smelltheice

03-31-2008, 06:08 AM

I do think that the sport could benefit from more of the masculine type guys like Elvis Stoiko or Todd Eldridge. The type of guy who at least in appearance would be the type of guy who wouldn't look out of place in more masculine sports. It is a sad fact that most people will judge skating by the image they percieve it as being a girly sport (when they actually concede that it is a sport!!). I also got that when riding horses and in competition especially when I was wearing breeches and this was cause for non horsey guys to s###### and taunt me about it being something that only girls do. So Skating is not alone in this but the irony is that at the time, most of the top equestrians in the world were men and not the slightest bit feminine!!

Morgail

03-31-2008, 11:42 AM

And yeah, if you're a smart heterosexual boy, you'll realize that girls SWOON over the guy figure skaters in a way they never would for hockey players!

This is so true. Every time I see one of the very few boys who figure skate at my rink, they are surrounded by the girls.

GordonSk8erBoi

03-31-2008, 02:52 PM

Wow, a good discussion!

I do think that the lack of males in figure skating is a problem for the sport overall -- it limits opportunity for competition, it limits the growth of pairs and dance.

I started skating at 39 and took a raft of sh*t from some of my coworkers at the time about it. I can only imagine what it's like for a boy, especially one who's an adolescent.

How do you sell it to parents? It would certainly help to have more role models, both in the media (Lysacek is good) and especially at the local level. Beyond that, really you have to get 'em when they're young and once they are hooked (skating IS addicting) that will help a lot to sell it in spite of the cost.

I've often thought we should point out to boys that it's a great way to meet attractive, smart girls who have a lot going for them. But like someone else said, they probably realize this after they've stopped skating :-(.

The lack of boys/men in skating makes things difficult for the ones that are there, though. Besides the things others have mentioned (too much media attention, pressure to do pairs/dance), it's difficult for them to find real competition except at the regional/sectional level. It's also hard when they have few (or often, no) peers at their own rink to hang out with and relate to.

I don't have a solution for this but I think there's much that could be done by USFSA and the rinks. It would, of course, probably cost money.

sk8tmum

03-31-2008, 03:22 PM

DS goes every year to a boys only seminar run by one of the local Skate Canada sections. It's a much anticipated event; he gets to see a lot of boys, hang with boys, and skate with boys. That's been invaluable, and it is a great initiative. Getting BOYS together as a group gets some synergy going, and they get positive reinforcement, make some contacts, see those ahead for a focus on where they are going.

The year that Kurt Browning was the facilitator for it - Kurt's energy, honesty, and enthusiasm really worked well. He was also able to discuss the challenges of being a boy in skating, and the benefits. Plus, solved some axel challenges for DS right before a big competition...:P

flippet

04-01-2008, 09:57 AM

But in the plus side, I've been seeing alot more guys at my rink nowadays than I used to! I think it's because of show like "so you think you can dance" are helping break streotypes of male dancers and skater alike.

I can only hope so! I was just watching some SYTYCD routines from season 2, with Travis Wall, and I was thinking that we need more dancers (and skaters) like him, because he manages to be so fluid, and graceful, and yet still masculine. That boy understands that dance is a way of communicating, and he speaks the language fluently. :D

But really, I think the biggest problem is society's perspective--how we don't teach little boys *anything* physical unless it's aggressive in some way. I think that the decline of social dancing in this country has had a terrible effect.

Another difficulty, though, again comes down to the differences between boys and girls. So often, little boys just have an abundance of explosive energy--and they aren't willing or able to do the slow, methodical physical and mental work that skating takes, especially with the basics. And then there's the cost---so as a mom, if my son needs to work off some energy, I'm much more inclined to put him in soccer, than skating, you know what I mean? So really, you've got a smaller pool of boys to choose from to begin with--the kind that are more inclined and able to focus, both mentally and physically.

(That said, I'm hoping to take my almost-5-year-old son skating for the first time in a few weeks. He's never wanted to before, and I've not wanted to push it, so we haven't gone. But of course, I'm hoping he'll like it. Which is a double-edged sword, considering that we can't afford lessons, or the time to get the rink (an hour away) at this stage of the game. :( I'm looking for a dance program to enroll him in locally, but again, money is tight, so it's the cheap soccer program for now!)

CanAmSk8ter

04-01-2008, 10:04 AM

DS goes every year to a boys only seminar run by one of the local Skate Canada sections. It's a much anticipated event; he gets to see a lot of boys, hang with boys, and skate with boys. That's been invaluable, and it is a great initiative. Getting BOYS together as a group gets some synergy going, and they get positive reinforcement, make some contacts, see those ahead for a focus on where they are going.

That's a great idea! I don't think USFS does anything like that, but they really should. I'd love to see something like the regional training camps, focussing on the pre-pre through Juvenile kids, where some coaches (at least some of them male) who have had success with male students could do clinics, parent Q&A sessions, etc.

Virtualsk8r

04-01-2008, 10:23 AM

[QUOTE=flippet;360176]
But really, I think the biggest problem is society's perspective--how we don't teach little boys *anything* physical unless it's aggressive in some way. I think that the decline of social dancing in this country has had a terrible effect.

Another difficulty, though, again comes down to the differences between boys and girls. So often, little boys just have an abundance of explosive energy--and they aren't willing or able to do the slow, methodical physical and mental work that skating takes, especially with the basics. And then there's the cost---so as a mom, if my son needs to work off some energy, I'm much more inclined to put him in soccer, than skating, you know what I mean? So really, you've got a smaller pool of boys to choose from to begin with--the kind that are more inclined and able to focus, both mentally and physically.
QUOTE]

Some little boys may have an abundance of physical explosive energy - but a lot are also lazy and don't want to work. It's hard when you have both kinds in a class with girls who are also lazy, uninterested, too good for the class or just enthusiastic! That's the difficulty of group lessons. I find that the energetic boys are easier to work with than the lazy ones! There are lots of skills that require power and speed that can wear them out, while the girls try to catch up.

In private lessons, however, it is much easier to teach the energetic boys. We focus on their strengths and interests. Forget about posture or arms held up in the correct position for a while -- that will come. Work on strong edges with control and speed, strong crosscuts, high waltz jumps, etc. Use the boys strengths to develop basic skills that they can focus on, and leave the more picky things until the boy has officially been 'drafted' into the sport and understands the need. I've had a few boys that turned into fine figure skaters with strong jumps and good posture -- The key was to work with the boy and his energy - not against it.