Worlds women's results **spoiler**

[Artemis]

Don't peek if you don't want to know ...
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It's gold for Mao Asada. Boy do the numbers in this event show how different the code of points is to the 6.0 system! Mao was second in both the sort and the long, but her totals give her the gold. Carolina Kostner was leading after the short, came 3rd in the free, and gets the silver. Yu-Na won the free, but since she was 5th after the short has to settle for bronze.

Yukari Nakano finishes in 4th, and Joannie Rochette pulled up from 6th after the short to 5th place.

The award for wackiest math goes to Kimmie Meissner: 9th after the short, 12th in the long ... totalling 7th overall. 8O

Beatrisa Liang - 10th
Mira Leung - 14th
Ashley Wagner - 16th

[frvanilla]

It's gold for Mao Asada. Boy do the numbers in this event show how different the code of points is to the 6.0 system! Mao was second in both the sort and the long, but her totals give her the gold.
Miki Ando was placed second in both SP and LP and won the gold last year. ;)

Poor Miki Ando, she looked terrified on the ice. Hope her injury is alright.

[charmainia]

Carolina should have been placed way down.. totally doesn't deserved the silver from the way she skated... when i saw the lower marks for YUNA, i was MAD .. so mad... YUNA should have been placed higher than Carolina.. EVen her coach Brian looked shocked.. those RESULTS ARE WACKED

[charmainia]

Poor Yukari Nakano .. She skated flawlessly.. even though her jumps aren't high...

The results should have been

Mao
Yuna
Yukari

[doubletoe]

To better understand why the skaters received the scores they did, look at the protocol sheets while watching the video (they are all already up on YouTube). For example, Yukari's triple axel was quite underrotated. It isn't obvious at first glance, but pause the video and you'll see. Right or wrong,that's what IJS is all about: getting the rotations. Also, don't forget, Yu-Na actually won the freeskate. She didn't skate as well in the short program and that's why she ended up in third overall.
http://static.sportresult.com/sports/figureskating/live/results/wc2008/WC08_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

[Skittl1321]

Weird- how did Kimmie's scores add up that way? Or did they go back to ordinals just for her? :)
I personally prefer how in this system you can get 2nd in both programs but still get 1st overall- your actual total of points is what matters, that makes sense to me.

Bebe and Ashley didn't do to badly for their first world's. Unfortunately 10+7 is not 13 or less :( (Isn't that what you need for 3 skaters next year?)


Wait- I just checked ice network- Ando didn't even complete her skate? Did she get seriously hurt on a fall?

[Muskoka Skater]

I don't think Carolina Kostner deserved to come 3rd in the freeskate, she should have been behind Yukari Nakano and Joannie Rochette. Carolina made more mistakes then both of them. I also think Yu-Na Kim should have come 2nd overall and Carolina Kostner should have been 3rd overall.

[MQSeries]

I watched the women's SP on ESPN2 ...

Mao is a gorgous skater. LOL at Peggy not being able to identify Mao's flutz when she was watching the slow-mo of the jump.

Dick can be really condescending toward Peggy sometimes. Dick was criticizing Yu-Na's layback. Peggy countered that it was beautiful. Dick said that well he must need glasses then. The manner in which he said it seemed to take Peggy by suprise.

I don't understand Meissner's 9th SP placement. She should've at least been placed above the lackluster performance of Ando. I don't understand the Finnish's skater 4th place either; She was a pleasant enough performer, but there wasn't anything about Kira's program that warrented her being above either Sarah Meir or Meissner.

I love Sarah Meir flying upright spin, if that's the correct name for it. Instead of going into the standard flying camel or deathdrop, she jumped into an upright spin with very pretty variations.

[mikawendy]

Dick Button on Mao Asada: "She's like a souffle on the ice!"

Dick Button on where he expected Yukari Nakano to place: "somewhere near the spiffy top..."

[MQSeries]

I don't know anything about all the points that were deducted/added for each skater, etc. but here are some of my observations from the lady free coverage ...

1. Why do the judges seem to want to hold up Kostner? She made so many little mistakes in most of her jumping passes in the long that they should've given her a lower total score than what she got.

2. Yukuri gave the most exciting performance of all the ladies. She should've been on the podium. With the possible exception of the 3A being counted as a cheat, all her other jumps looked clean, and she had the best spins in the competition. Judges shouldn't give negative GOE for wrap leg, do they?

3. David Wilson gave Yu-Na two bland programs this year. Aside from her great jump technique, Yu-Na's long program was boring, especially the last section with the SLF. Blech. I don't think she should've won the long program.

4. It was sad seeing Dick, Peggy, Wilson, and Gannon bid goodbye to ABC coverage of figure skating. Another end of an era :cry: .

[Muskoka Skater]

1. Why do the judges seem to want to hold up Kostner? She made so many little mistakes in most of her jumping passes in the long that they should've given her a lower total score than what she got.

2. Yukuri gave the most exciting performance of all the ladies. She should've been on the podium. With the possible exception of the 3A being counted as a cheat, all her other jumps looked clean, and she had the best spins in the competition. Judges shouldn't give negative GOE for wrap leg, do they?

I completely I agree. Karolina Kostner was scored to high for the short program. In the long she should have come 5th. Yukuri should have come at least 3rd in the long program. I think the overall results should have been: 1st Mao Asada, 2nd Yu-Na Kim, 3rd Yukuri Nakano, 4th Joannie Rochette, and 5th Carolina Kostner.

[Pandora]

Unfortunately...on ice wrap is looked down upon as a "fault." (This makes me angry :evil: , but that's how it is). Not sure who made this so-called "rule" and why, but I do think the judges mark her down for it (either officially or unofficially), because her marks are always so low. I guess some people find a leg wrap "unattractive" and "distracting" but isn't that just a matter of opinion? (Personally, I find the Beilman position unattractive and distracting). As long as the jump takes off of the correct edge and is rotated and landed on an outside edge, I don't see where the judges get off in (officially, unofficially) penalizing a skater for it. Also...this new system is ridiculous. It is making this sport a laughingstock. Believe me, the general public certainly doesn't understand why the girl who stood up lost while girl who fell down won. You can explain "edge quality" and "wrap" until you're blue in the face...That's one of the reasons why this sport is dying. It looks fixed. And, to a point, I think it is fixed. The judges have their favorites. There way no way a girl with a wrap was going to win. She could have done clean quintulpes. It would not have mattered. Her "edge quality" would have been off...:roll: Note the boos and hisses at the judges when Nakano's scores came up. :D They know. You can try to defend the judges all you want....but the audience knows. :mrgreen: Like I said, one of the reasons why this sport is dying.....

[sk8er1964]

It is important to look at and understand the protocols. In this case, the technical marks played a major role - and not because the judges didn't like the wrap.

The Program Components were similar for the three of the top four skaters in the long program. Kim had 58.56, Asada 60.57, Kostner 58.52 and Nakano 59.32. The difference between Asada (the highest of the four) and Kostner (the lowest of the four) is 2.05, which is not enough to make a difference in the final results for anyone except Kostner - and only if the case could be made that Asada did not deserve her PCS marks. If you look closely at the individual marks between Asada and Nakano (the next closest PCS with a difference of 1.27), the judges were pretty much unanimous - 10 of the 12 gave higher marks to Asada.

The technical mark is the big difference. Here's a breakdown:

Kim: 64.82 Seven jump passess, four (including one combo) getting the bonus for being in the 2nd half of the program. Combos were a 3-3, a 3-2-2, and a 2-3 (2A to start). No downgrades, no edge violations, no falls, but she did pop a 3Lutz into a single. One jump (the 3 sal) got negative grades of execution (GOE), and the other six had positive GOE. Of her four spins, three were level 4 and one was a L3. Her spiral sequence was a L4 and her step sequence was a L3. All of her non-jump items received positive GOE.

Asada: 61.89 Seven jump passes, four (including two combos) getting the 2nd half bonus. Combos were a 3-3, 3-3, and 2-2-2 (2A to start). She received an edge violation for the 3Lutz, and a downgrade on the 3Flip-3Loop combo (downgrades and edge violations = automatic negative GOE), and -1.00 for the fall on the 3Axel. Out of her jumping passes, four received positive GOE, two received negative GOE, and one got a zero (the axel). Of her four spins, two were L4 and two were L3. Her step sequence was an L3, and she got dinged on her spiral sequence for not holding them long enough - L1. All of her non-jump elements received positive GOE.

Kostner: 61.88 Seven jump passes, three (including two combos) getting the 2nd half bonus. Combos were a 3-3-2, 2-3 (2A), and 3-2. She received no edge violations, no downgrades, and no fall deductions. Out of her jumping passes, five received negative GOE and one positive GOE, and one with zero GOE. Two of her spins were L3, two were L4. Her spirals were L3 and her step sequence was L4. All non-jump elements received positive GOE.

Nakano: 53.63 Seven jump passes, three (including two combos) getting 2nd half bonus. Combos were 3-2, 3-2-2, and 3-2. (Note on the combos: The base value of Kim's combos was 26.55, Asada 24.55, Kostner 25.63 and Nakano 20.66.) She received no edge violations and no fall deductions, but two downgrades, to the 3Axel and the 3Flip. With the mandatory negative GOEs for downgrades, this means that her 3A at 2.24 and 3F at 1.48 were both worth less than a 2A (3.5 base). Anyway, on her jump passes she received two negative GOE and five positive GOE. She had two L3 and two L4 spins, and L3 on her step sequence and an L4 spiral. She received positive GOE on all non-jump elements.

So, what all of the above means is that while Nakano appeared to skate clean, she actually underrotated two jumps which cost her alot. Combine that with combos that are vastly easier than those of her competitors and it looks like the results are correct.

Hope this helps to explain what went on.

[mikawendy]

sk8er1964, thanks for the detailed analysis!

[Pandora]

Maybe :giveup: ....however, I do think that she has been unfairly downgraded in the past because of her wrap. (Have slow-moed the video. See the cheat on the axel. But I'm pretty sure the flip was clean.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q73qRri00zc
Also, one of the problems with the sport is the fact that it does appear "fixed." I mean, maybe a fall should garner a much bigger deduction than it does. Then it would make more sense to those watching....
Also, tend to think that there is such a prejudice against "wrap" that there is no way a skater with one could possibly win a major competition/title on ice. I could be wrong here...but judging from the comments (especially from Peggy and Dick) every time Nakano skates.....Well....
I know Madoi Ito supposedly had a "wrap" but hers was more of a figure 4 leg position (still crossed near her ankles but with open thighs). Most wraps are with tight thighs crossed at the knee, (like Nakano's). So I'm not sure if Ito "counts" as a "wrapper."

[wasabi]

Maybe :giveup: ....however, I do think that she has been unfairly downgraded in the past because of her wrap.

The flip was cheated, even if it was close. I caught it even in real time. The only way her wrap affects downgrades is that it causes her to rotate slower -- making her more likely to cheat. There's no "fixing" about it. And frankly, there is a "prejudice" against wraps, just like there's a "prejudice" against bent legs on spirals -- it's incorrect technique. The judges need something to judge for GOE. The ISU puts out videos and examples of the ideal technique on each jump, and judges subtract for anything that's not considered correct technique (a wrap, a bent leg on a camel spin, etc.). If they didn't take off for a wrap, what would be the purpose of GOE? It's really not open to interpretation -- wraps have been considered poor/improper technique pretty much for as long as there have been organized skating competitions.

[Pandora]

Maybe they should rethink it. ;) WHY is it "bad technique"? Seems to me a triple is a triple regardless of leg position. And um...bent legs on spirals. Depends upon the spiral. (Catch foot, Knee etc.) I'm just saying....some of these rather draconian "rules" are one of the things affecting your sport's popularity. (Notice the boos/hisses at the judges at Nakano's marks and some of the comments on the posts including the YouTube videos).

[MQSeries]

I don't think leg wrap is "incorrect technique". It's just a different technique in regard to her air position. It doesn't affect her entrance edge, landing edge or the distance her jump covered. In the olden days skaters did not cross their legs at all for double and triple jumps. Don Jackson did 3lutz with both legs side-by-side in the air. Tai Babilonia did her 2A and throw 2A with her legs almost in a tuck position.

[Pandora]

Yes, in the past, they seemed to be more tollerant of "individual styles." Now, though, I'm afraid that there is a "cookie cutter" approach based upon the "powers that be," (read that the all-powerful USFS:bow: ), and for some reason, these "powers" have deemed a wrap a flaw. I have heard because it is a "cheat" (due to prerotation), and/or because the bad air position makes rotation more difficult to achieve. So basically, they don't like it becuase it is a cheat that makes the jump harder to do. :roll: (Oxymoron anyone?) Maybe someone in power just thought it didn't look good. ;) (My guess.)
I do find it interesting, though, that one is not "allowed" to critize the USFS or any if the "rules." Watch their "lapdogs" jump on me for daring to imply that a wrap shouldn't be prejudiced against. As you (correctly) pointed out. The so-called "correct" position (crossed ankles) wasn't even the accepted style until relatively recently. Oh Dick! Just look at that sloppy wrap on 2axel!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbvdlMkJCMo Was that a cheat ?!!
No, I'm not being disrespectful to Dick Button. (I love him!!) But I am making a point....
Nakano should have scored much higher....(Even Dick thought so).

[mikawendy]

Now, though, I'm afraid that there is a "cookie cutter" approach based upon the "powers that be," (read that the all-powerful USFS:bow: ), and for some reason, these "powers" have deemed a wrap a flaw.
<snip>
I do find it interesting, though, that one is not "allowed" to critize the USFS or any if the "rules."

Well, in the case of Worlds, the governing body is the ISU, not USFS.

[Pandora]

O.k. :giveup: "Thems that are in power," then. But you get my point. It is a cookie cutter thing. And the "rules" are Draconian. They leave very little room for individuality. Also, the general public can't understand them. The girl who falls should loose. That makes sense. That is why the crowd bood. (And you know what I mean about people "slapping you down" for critizing the "rules.")
You don't think Nakano was unfairly biased against for wrap? (by the ISU judges) Her spins were excellent. But if everyone wants to pretend to believe that the wrap had nothing to do with her low marks, (other than possibly making it more difficult for complete rotation and therefore, a markdown), then o.k.....guess I'm outnumbered.

[wasabi]

1. Watched the Dick Button video. That's not technically a wrap, it's just not a very tight air position.

2. I haven't seen the protocols, but I would assume (except for maybe her layback, which had a bent skating leg), her spins all got positive GOE. Jumps and spins are judged separately, so bad jumps can outweigh great spins.

3. IMO, the crowd booing had nothing to do with them feeling her wrap was unfairly penalized . Her marks were low in large part because of the two downgrades, something which the crowd couldn't know (leading them to feel the marks were unfair). I'd love to see some way to broadcast protocols in the arena.

4. Guidelines are in place for a reason. GOE hinges on it. If anything is acceptable, why have any judges at all? If a wrap becomes a matter of preference, why shouldn't two-footing a jump be personal preference too? And, you know what, it'll be my personal preference just to do a little hop into my flying sit -- there shouldn't be any automatic level one punishment for it (because it'd certainly make my life easier not to really have to work on it)! On that note, going into jumps with not speed at all (ala Caroline Zhang) can be an artistic liberty too.

Nakano doesn't wrap because she thinks it is prettier or because it makes her jumps any better (because if you've studied physics you know it does just the opposite -- you'll also notice she doesn't wrap on her triple axel, because she couldn't physically complete the rotations if she did). She wraps because she picked up the technique as a little girl taking with a coach who didn't bother to correct her. And now, with the long competition seasons, she either doesn't have the time or doesn't want to take the time to relearn all her jumps (because that's what it takes).

No one (at least with any experience) teaches a wrap. Certain less strict coaches just don't bother correcting it. But that does not mean it's a style choice.

5. I was talking about skating legs on spirals, and I guess free legs on unsupporteds as well. Deliberately bent free legs, while sometimes ugly, are not bad technique.

[Pandora]

ok. I think I get it....
1. So.... wrap is bad technique because judging standards say so.(Because supposedly it makes the jump harder. Physics, you know.) And those standards are not to be questioned, ever. (Otherwise, why have judging at all?)There that pretty much explains the wrap thing.
2. Also, the placement was fair. If the audience saw the protocols then they would understand the downgrade. (If not, they're just a bunch of morons who don't understand skating anyway. And so don't deserve an opinion.)
3. People who wrap jumps should just relearn or get out of the sport. (See point #1 for reason why).
4. Figure skating is loosing audience/popularity. (Can't imagine why.) :roll:
5. By the way...Button did wrap the 2axel. Sorry.
An interesting afterthought....you mentioned why not get credit for landing on two feet, (if there aren't to be any rules). Well, that would make the jump easier. As you brought up, according to physics, wrap makes a jump harder, so I would think you'd get extra credit for landing it, (considering it's harder that way.) Let's face it, the only "real" reason people don't like it is because some people (in power) don't like the look of it. (It is not "balletic" enough.)

[sk8er1964]

ok. I think I get it....
1. So.... wrap is bad technique because judging standards say so.(Because supposedly it makes the jump harder. Physics, you know.) And those standards are not to be questioned, ever. (Otherwise, why have judging at all?)There that pretty much explains the wrap thing.

Um, Pandora. I understand that you are passionate about Nakano. However, she was not penalized for her wrap - if she had been, she would have gotten negative GOEs on her wrapped jumps, and she did not. There are no judging standards that I know of that penalize air position.

A wrap is not pretty, and is not a common technique. It is more difficult to rotate in that position - but it did not effect her technical mark at all.


2. Also, the placement was fair. If the audience saw the protocols then they would understand the downgrade. (If not, they're just a bunch of morons who don't understand skating anyway. And so don't deserve an opinion.)

Having an audience boo a skaters mark is nothing new. It's happened a zillion times over the years. Just because an audience doesn't agree with a skater's marks does not make those marks wrong, nor does it make the audience stupid. The audience (or tv viewer, for that matter) watching a skater perform without taking into consideration the overall difficulty of a skater's program often gets caught up in the moment and feels that the skater was robbed. That's why we have judges - because they do take into consideration the entire package and don't judge emotionally. Without them, we might as well be skating under the American Idol format - and that would be awful for the sport!


3. People who wrap jumps should just relearn or get out of the sport. (See point #1 for reason why).

It is difficult for a skater to relearn bad habits, especially at that level. If it were easy, then nobody would flutz! However, there is no reason for someone who wraps to get out of the sport - but slowly relearning might be a good idea, if nothing else than for asthetic reasons.


4. Figure skating is loosing audience/popularity. (Can't imagine why.) :roll:

Figure skating is losing popularity because it is going back to the pre-Tonya/Nancy and Michelle Kwan days. When I was young, the only figure skating you ever saw on tv was the Olympics and an occasional Christmas show. The amount of skating available on tv and the internet is amazing compared to what I saw was a child.

Oh and, by the way...Button did wrap the 2axel. Sorry.

Sorry. That was not a wrap. His knee was bent, but it was bent forward, not around his leg. Double axel technique was not exactly perfected when he did it. ;)

[Pandora]

Ok. So Nakano was not unfairly judged because of her wrap. Her marks were fair. However, wrap is wrong and a fault in jumping. So even if she were marked low, (which she wasn't), because of her wrap, then that would be fine because she really should have taken the time to relearn her technique anyways. But she wasn't. But if she were, it would still be o.k.
And the American Idol format would be wrong? Really? I think it may be just what this sport needs... When audiences don't like things they don't watch. They vote with their pocketbooks. There more people think this sport is "fixed" and unfair, the more they will tune it out. Sure you have a (small) segment of the population (competitive skaters and their families) who will always attend competitions/watch on the net. But I doubt that it's enough to keep the sport lucrative. Under an American Idol system, you would get people with backflips, new ideas, creativity. Not Carmen or Juliet for the gadzillionth time. And that's bad....why????
Button...well, leg bent forward around knee loosely vs wrapped around knee tightly. But not crossed at ankles in "correct" position. Um....Well, I should know a wrap when I see one (since I do it), and I'd call it a warp. Maybe a loose wrap, but a wrap all the same. Sorry.
Also, do you notice the attacks....Don't get why people are protecting the prejudice, and as several people noted it is a prejudice. They say it is not specifically written anywhere that a wrap should be penalized...It's more of a GOE because specific judges don't like it thing....Which is a prejudice....

[neartorn]

I question Kostner's LP was held up in the GOEs. Notice how some of the judges refused to give her a -GOE, and instead a zero. Last time I checked, a hands-down on a jump is an error, and so is unstable landings. How in the could those mistakes be marked as "0" and not -#s?

And I don't understand her PCs. For performance execution, she got a couple of 8s? How? I've seen her execute that program better, and botching 5 jumps is definitely not "precise execution of movement" (quoting the ISU document concerning PCs). And skating skill also got some 8s? There was no "balance" on her jumps and catch foot spiral (difficulty getting her leg up).

[BatikatII]

And the American Idol format would be wrong? Really? I think it may be just what this sport needs... When audiences don't like things they don't watch. They vote with their pocketbooks. There more people think this sport is "fixed" and unfair, the more they will tune it out. Sure you have a (small) segment of the population (competitive skaters and their families) who will always attend competitions/watch on the net. But I doubt that it's enough to keep the sport lucrative. Under an American Idol system, you would get people with backflips, new ideas, creativity. Not Carmen or Juliet for the gadzillionth time. And that's bad....why???? .

But because it is a sport and not mere entertainment then you have to have rules and judges who judge by the rules. By all means campaign to have rules changed but you still need rules. And no the skater who falls doesnt' necessarily have to be the loser. If everything else she does is better then she is a deserved winner. Imagine a one fall and you're out competition in skatign - nobody would ever bother to try anythign difficult or exciting as a single fall could lose it for them no matter how great they were at everythgin else. Oh and backflips were banned from competition due to the danger of peopel breaking their necks (similar reason why the headbanger lifts in pairs are done only by professional skaters in shows or in exhibitions but are not allowed in comps)

And how can you possibly have audience judged international skating competitions - Hmm - the biggest country wins as they have more people to vote? Nope you can't make that fair in any way. Even if you had an audience who knew anything about the technicalities of skating. Some simple moves look difficult and vice versa - most people don't have much of a clue.

If you simply want the most entertaining skater winning, then go American Idol format by all means - the 'Dancing on Ice' programmes are very much along those lines but that is entertainment and NOT sport.

The new judging system was devised in answer to previous cristicisms of fixings and while it still has faults I think most skaters growing up with it find it a good system as they get feedback on what was good and what needs work.

[smelltheice]

I think it is fair to say that in any sport where the opinion of the judge is a factor, there will always be disparity in the marks and personal opinion in whatever context will always be a factor that will interfere. Judges are only human and whether something is good or bad, right or wrong will always be a matter of opinion and the individuals interpretation based upon personal values and their experience. This has always and will always remain true no matter how many ISU guides and regulations for judging are produced. You just can't change folk! I see the same in dressage (Horse sport) and the same thing happens there. I have had nightmares in the past tying to get competitors to go home after shows because it could be going on for midnight and they will stand around and debate the judges comments and scores for hours as though they were working out the solution to world peace!!

And with respect, I agree with BatikatII about the judging system. The american idol public vote works for entertainment (plus they make a fortune with it!!) but not for sport. People will nearly always vote for their favourite skater or the one they find attractive or the one who is fun to watch than they would if they actually judged the performance on a technical and artistic level. The new judging system does work better than ordinals but you can never remove the human element of favourite skaters unless the skaters all wore the same costume and ski masks!!

[Pandora]

Well, your National Champion doesn't seem to see much wrong with backflips. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/sports/skate.php
In case you don't want to read the whole article, he is promoting an extreme version of skating, backflips, jumps, no ballet (thank god!!!) for those of us sick of Carmen. Maybe he just has a little more faith in people being able to judge their own abilities than you seem to have....
Also, I am just pointing out that your new judging system is not working very well. (And I'm not the only one who thinks so.) Smelltheice is right. In a sport with no clear "finish line" there will always be disagreements about the placement....But as long as people see judging that seems unfair they will tune out. I did. And I'm not the only one. Check out the comments on Nakano's videos on YouTube and on some of the fourms.
And I wouldn't be so dismissive of the audience. They are smarter than you think. They are also the ones going to the ice shows and paying the bills...:D
Oh yeah, a fall is a major mistake. If you can't do it, don't put it in the routine. It should be heavily penalized. Splatfest anyone?

[wasabi]

Oh yeah, a fall is a major mistake. If you can't do it, don't put it in the routine. It should be heavily penalized. Splatfest anyone?

Um...sorry, but do you skate? It just doesn't work that way. It doesn't matter how consistent a jump is -- you can always still fall. My recent competition, I had done clean runthroughs all week (so I had done my program seven times with no mistakes whatsoever...and with no falls on the jumps outside of the program either). In competition? Massive fall on the first jump and another mistake on the second one. It just happens. You can do things a thousand times in a row and will still fall once or twice -- heck, I've fallen on waltz jumps (which I've been able to do for a decade and a half)! Besides, falls are pretty heavily penalized. Four points off on triples, and often jumps are downgraded on top of that.

Honestly, as someone who has skated under the judging system, I like it a whole lot better than the old one. In this one, you get a protocol at the end, telling you almost exactly what the judges were thinking. Not so with 6.0. The problem lies with the fact that it's complicated, and the commentators don't seem to have studied it very well, so the audience (those who don't skate) don't understand it. There's a few changes I'd like to see (quads should be worth more for example), but overall, it's a huge improvement for the sport.

[Pandora]

Yes, I do skate. (And have for many, many, many years).
And yes, I competed for several years as a teen. (Although I didn't enjoy it.)
Yes, falls should be heavily penalized. Wrap no. Fall yes. (My opinion, I do get to have one, you know.) :roll:
Don't worry. My opinion means squat to the officials. Your judging system is safe, (as ridiculous as it is). The only way I can "vote" is by refusing to partake in the system. Which I am doing. (Not a USFS member. Don't test. Don't compete. Don't attend competitions.) However, I do watch on TV, (well, at least I did).

One thing I do have to support you guys on. Nakano knew going in that (officially or unofficially) her wrap was going against her. She choose to compete knowing this. She is probably not suprised. You're right on that one: If you're going to play the game there are certain rules. If you don't like the rules, don't play. Problem is: It's the only game in town. (Kind of like when you're 14 yrs. old and your mom says if you don't like it feel free to move out. Then she smiles.) Like I said, I do skate, but I don't play the game because I don't like the rules. Nakano choose to play. If you want to play, go right ahead.

[LilJen]

I question Kostner's LP was held up in the GOEs. Notice how some of the judges refused to give her a -GOE, and instead a zero. Last time I checked, a hands-down on a jump is an error, and so is unstable landings. How in the could those mistakes be marked as "0" and not -#s?

There's more to a jump than the landing, and judges are expected to grade a jump on the quality of takeoff, landing, air position, and one other thing that I can't remember. Except for her 2a, Kostner gets a LOT of air in her jumps. A messy landing doesn't necessitate negative GOE. If it's balanced out by other great qualities in the jump, the markdown won't be as severe.

I do think the anonymous aspect of judging needs to be ditched, but other than that I like COP better than 6.0.

[BatikatII]

Well, your National Champion doesn't seem to see much wrong with backflips. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/sports/skate.php
In case you don't want to read the whole article, he is promoting an extreme version of skating, backflips, jumps, no ballet (thank god!!!) for those of us sick of Carmen. Maybe he just has a little more faith in people being able to judge their own abilities than you seem to have....
Also, I am just pointing out that your new judging system is not working very well. (And I'm not the only one who thinks so.) Smelltheice is right. In a sport with no clear "finish line" there will always be disagreements about the placement....But as long as people see judging that seems unfair they will tune out. I did. And I'm not the only one. Check out the comments on Nakano's videos on YouTube and on some of the fourms.
And I wouldn't be so dismissive of the audience. They are smarter than you think. They are also the ones going to the ice shows and paying the bills...:D
Oh yeah, a fall is a major mistake. If you can't do it, don't put it in the routine. It should be heavily penalized. Splatfest anyone?


He's not my national champion since I am British! and he says himself he is talking about it being a seperate sport and if that's what he and others want to do then good on them and I'll enjoy watching it when it happens. Adults are well able to take their own decisons but a responsible sporting body has to take in to consideration the safety of it's members and bearing in mind kids start skating so young then they aren't capable of making that decision and their coaches should not have to make them do something that is so dangerous.

It's not 'my' new judging system either. I think it has good points and bad points like the 6.0 system before it. There were just as many if not more arguments about seemingly unfair placings under the 6.0 system. But you'll always get people for whom 'the system', 'the judges' 'the audience liking the wrong guy/girl' etc. is to blame for their favourite not winning. I think it's called bad sportsmanship.

Sometimes it doesn't seem fair and sometimes it really isn't fair but there is no 'perfect' system and someone will always be unhappy with the result.

I wanted Joubert to win the men's and personally don't think it's right that Buttle can win without a quad and what to me personally is a very clinical and uninvolving style of skating. But he played the current system and he is undeniably an excellent skater - just not what I like to see. But that's my personal preference and opinion and lots of people love him and his style. At least under the current system I can see 'why' he won and where Joubert blew it. It's the same for the ladies.

Asada is not the only skater to win despite a fall (Plushenko has in the past) and if you honestly believe that a poor skater who stays standing up should win a competition over a good skater who has a fall (which is what by extension your insistence on a fall being the worst thing ever means) then it truly is the wrong sport for you to watch as you will never enjoy it. And if you think Plushenko falling on a jump means he couldn't do it then you are quite obviously and simply wrong since he has done the same jump hundreds if not thousands of times before. No-one can guarantee they won't fall on even the simplest jump, so in your system there'd be no skating as no-one can give you the guarantee they won't fall.:roll: :giveup:

[Pandora]

Just hope Evan's idea catches on!!! :mrgreen: (You know, for us adults).

Still don't get where you guys think falls should be overlooked, (and many of you do). Under any scoring system you are being judged on what you did at the time of the competition...not on what you could do. Yes, I know Joubert and Asada could land the jumps they fell on....but they fell at the time they were being judged. Some people think "skating cleanly" is important....some don't. Matter of opinion. Not bad sportsmanship. Opinion. Of course there are no guarantees that there won't be any falls, but that should be the standard. (Again, opinion). Um...somehow, still think people would skate even if skating cleanly were the new standard. Just a guess.;)

[BatikatII]

Just hope Evan's idea catches on!!! :mrgreen: (You know, for us adults).

Still don't get where you guys think falls should be overlooked, (and many of you do). Under any scoring system you are being judged on what you did at the time of the competition...not on what you could do. Yes, I know Joubert and Asada could land the jumps they fell on....but they fell at the time they were being judged. Some people think "skating cleanly" is important....some don't. Matter of opinion. Not bad sportsmanship. Opinion. Of course there are no guarantees that there won't be any falls, but that should be the standard. (Again, opinion). Um...somehow, still think people would skate even if skating cleanly were the new standard. Just a guess.;)

Nobody said falls should be overlooked. Of course they get a deduction for a fall plus the downgrades in execution so a fall can reduce a jump worth lots of points to one worth just a few points if anything. Asada and Joubert both got the deductions and that jump counting for very little in their points tally.

As it's a cumulative system, you could have the fall making the jump worth zero but it would be daft to say it would take that skater out of the competition altogether as you seem to want. So even if everything else they did was still worth more in points than another skater's programme who didn't fall; you are saying that the one who didn't fall should win just because they didn't fall.:roll: OK we might as well have a last man standing competition rather than a skating competition. Surely the one who fell but had more points because they did everything else better, is still entitled to win. It didn't suddenly make the rest of the programme rubbish - it meant one element was missed that time. Nor did it magically improve the skating of the one who didn't fall.

Of course skating cleanly is important because it gives you more points but jumps are not the only thing that makes up a programme. So skating cleanly is the standard already and if they don't reach that standard they get deductions - what is wrong with that? However if other jumps reach the standard they get points for those and why shouldn't they? And they get points for everything else that makes up a programme too.

Plushenko won with a fall on his last jump in a programme under the 6.0 system and he got 6.0's for the programme. So people were confused as it wasn't a 'perfect' programme and on the surface looks wrong. But that was a relative scoring system and they'd given the other guys 5.9's and even with the fall, the judges reckoned that overall Plushenko's was better, so had to give more than they'd given the other guy. I wanted the other guy to win but even I have to admit it would have been a travesty of justice if they'd said Plushenko was out due to that one fall.

The 'bad sportsmanship' refers to people who are always finding something external to blame for their guy/gal not winning and not to thinking that only those who skate clean should ever be able to win a competition which is just daft.:D

And finally I don't understand it coming from someone who wants to include backflips etc in the skating that you also want to disqualify anyone who falls. If you are going to reward 'being able to stay on your feet' more than going for a big jump with it's inevitable risk of falling then the sport will stagnate. Certainly no-one would ever bother pushing themselves to go for a quad and sport should be about pushing the boundaries and not about doing what is 'safe' in terms of not being disqualified.

[Pandora]

Well....I still think people would take the chance of landing the higher level jump for the prestige/points, but then, that might make the whole thing a "jumping contest," (by subtracting so heavily against those who couldn't). Now that would be fine by me, but I do understand that this is figure skating and there is the "complete package" thing....so.....:giveup: (Although I do think you are still going to have to explain it to a lot of the audience).

[BatikatII]

Well....I still think people would take the chance of landing the higher level jump for the prestige/points, but then, that might make the whole thing a "jumping contest," (by subtracting so heavily against those who couldn't). Now that would be fine by me, but I do understand that this is figure skating and there is the "complete package" thing....so.....:giveup: (Although I do think you are still going to have to explain it to a lot of the audience).

Indeed you might have to explain it the audience but educating the audience is a lot more sensible than changing a rule to something totally wrong just because it would suit some people who don't know enough about the sport to know better.

They have jump contests at the lower levels (local club level) or 'Spin, spiral, jump' contests usually and indeed if you fall on the jump there you are likely to lose (but they are basically for beginners and those who don't yet have a programme). Even then I've seen someone do a rubbish spin but still win with a great jump and a decent spiral but maybe that's OK by you anyway since it's only the quality of the jumps you seem interested in.

Happy watching!

[Pandora]

Well...thread has gotten kind of off course. Still feel badly for Nakano, but then, (as was so politely pointed out to me), that's the system.... and it's the only game in town. So there you have it. Still hope Evan's idea catches on. It would be nice to have an alternative. (You know for those of us who just like to jump/watch jumps.)

[BatikatII]

Well...thread has gotten kind of off course. Still feel badly for Nakano, but then, (as was so politely pointed out to me), that's the system.... and it's the only game in town. So there you have it. Still hope Evan's idea catches on. It would be nice to have an alternative. (You know for those of us who just like to jump/watch jumps.)


Yep I look forward to seeing Evans extreme ice skating idea - sounds fun. He should get together with the guy who does extreme ice skating on hockey blades (although in his case it's like bad figure skating, two footed landings and scrunched air positions). Something of a cross between the two might work and slopes and obstacles etc would make it even more interesting.

[Pandora]

Definitely!!!:D

[icedancer2]

Something of a cross between the two might work and slopes and obstacles etc would make it even more interesting.

If Evan wants slopes and obstacles he should skate at my old hockey rink!!

You can read all about it on my blog...8-)

[kayskate]

If Evan wants slopes and obstacles he should skate at my old hockey rink!!

You can read all about it on my blog...8-)

Please provide direct link to the article. I could not find it just perusing.

Kay

[icedancer2]

Well, your National Champion doesn't seem to see much wrong with backflips. http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/18/sports/skate.php
In case you don't want to read the whole article, he is promoting an extreme version of skating, backflips, jumps, no ballet (thank god!!!) for those of us sick of Carmen. Maybe he just has a little more faith in people being able to judge their own abilities than you seem to have....


This is the article that is being referenced - my blog has no links to the article, just an expose on my old hockey rink that has lots of slopes and hills!!!:D