A 3-3 in Sasha's SP?

[KBW]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/brian_cazeneuve/news/2002/09/22/cazeneuve_insider/


I didn't know she was planning a 3-3 in her short. Or is this like how she was "planning" a quad in her long program last year? Anyone know what's up?

[Alexeiskate]

I'm suprised Tarasova has enough time in the day to devote 3 hours on just Sasha. I wonder if she had to cut back the time on some of her lesser known skaters.

Aside from Irina, MK also skated pretty well at Worlds. I'm not sure a clean Sasha at Worlds would have placed above Michelle.

[Dustin]

I wouldn't get too excited, Sasha didn't say it. We all know about how sometimes reporters can make mistakes and don't know a triple from a double.

I think the 3 hours with Sasha may have been a mistake by the writer. Maybe 3 hours of instruction but not 3 hours of 1 on 1 instruction. That is a little much seeing she has so many other people/teams.

[KBW]

Come to think of it, I was saying to myself as I read the bit about 3 hours a day, "Well, that statement sure got decorated a bit for publishing!" Someone probably mentioned that Sasha had two 1.5 hour sessions a day, which turned into a stated grand total of 3 whole hours! Then, someone edited to make the sentence pretty by adding "one on one" and that's probably how that got in there. Little do they realize that heh, the name "Tarasova" doesn't refer to an individual.

So I'll hold off on the excitement (or skeptical eyebrow raises) until Sasha herself says something.

[Lark]

Why would Sasha add a 3/3 in the SP of all places when she cannot land one in the LP, and she often cannot follow through with the SP requirements as they are?
I honestly think that with a clean SP, Sasha will be in the Top 3 going into the LP. I do not think she should risk it.

[liljimeo]

C'mon guys! I think she'll do a 3-3 in the short this year. Maybe not at every single competition, but at least once this year. We've all seen her land clean Quads and 3-3's in televised practices... so I mean... It is just a matter of time before she can conquer those nerves.
I think she would have a better chance of landing her 3lutz-3toe in the short. She usually has great short programs and gets all nervy during the long... possibly from all the pressure she puts on herself for being placed so high after the short. Remember when Sarah hughes broke out onto the scene... It took her a lot longer to get the marks in the Short that Sasha has already for programs that basically had the same elements.
This is year is definately going to be a war between Sasha and Sarah. Well, if Michelle stays away for a while, anyhow.
I think the coolest thing to watch this year, is who will be 3rd best... Lots and lots of contenders. O, I gets soooo excited anticipating!!!

[Breakdown787]

Of course there is a chance that Sasha might actually attemp the triple-triple...maybe just once...in the short, but I really don't think she needs it ethier.

Personally, I think she should be concentrating on getting her D.axle more secure and better, cause we all know what happen at worlds...

[Louis]

I wouldn't be surprised if Cohen tries the triple-triple in her short program. Carolina Kostner landed a clean 3lutz-3toe in the short program at Nebelhorn and does the combination more easily than any lady I've ever seen. Miki Ando did 3lutz-3loop in the short program at Japanese Nationals last season and rarely misses the combination. Ludmila Nelidina landed 3lutz-3toe in her short program last season before upgrading her combination to 3axel-2toe (!).

If you look only at the world medallists, it's easy to think that skaters can by without the triple-triples, but there are FAR too many excellent juniors who are doing the triple-triple combinations for this to remain true much longer. In the U.S. alone, Felicia Beck and Beatrisa Liang will be trying 3lutz-3toe combinations in the short program this season.

[duane]

Originally posted by Lark
she often cannot follow through with the SP requirements as they are

you think so? i'm under a totally different impression--that sasha usually performs extremely well in the SP, while mistakes in the LP have kept her off the podium at internationals competitions, and kept her off the top of the podium at Nationals.

because of my impression, i dont think a 3/3 in the SP is necessary for sasha. i think as long as she lands a clean 3/2 SP, she will be be contention for the gold in any competition.

[nits]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Louis
[Ludmila Nelidina landed 3lutz-3toe in her short program last season before upgrading her combination to 3axel-2toe (!).

Wow! I have never heard of her. How old is she? I hope she doesn't get injured before she makes senior level. I can't wait to hear more about her.

[Impromptu]

Originally posted by nits
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Louis
[Ludmila Nelidina landed 3lutz-3toe in her short program last season before upgrading her combination to 3axel-2toe (!).

Wow! I have never heard of her. How old is she? I hope she doesn't get injured before she makes senior level. I can't wait to hear more about her.

Nelidina is 17 and she's scheduled to compete at Skate America.

[loveskating]

Sasha is not a conservative skater, so I wouldn't be surprised if she puts a 3/3 in her SP...but I also think she doesn't need it or would rarely need it. IMHO, Sasha Cohen has a real passion for skating.

It could be that Sarah is putting a 3/3 in her SP because she knows she is going to get dinged for her terrible flutz and for underotating her flip, as well as for the bent leg in her spiral sequence (a spiral sequence is required in the SP) on the presentation side.

BTW, last season, the only time Sasha made a serious mistake in her SP was at Worlds (2 axel); in fact, IMHO she should win the SP hands down against anyone but Irina, and there it would be very close and Sasha would win it a lot...the reason is the difficulty and QUALITY athletically of all of Sasha's elements except for a very slight flutz (which Irina also has sometimes), and her presentation, which IMHO sets the standard as to presentation....its the best I've ever seen in my whole life and IMHO if she skates clean, she ought to be getting 5.9s for presentation all along the line.

As to jumps, IMHO the only person who has an equally fine position in the air (proper backspin, I don't mean the pointed toes) is Irina and on some jumps, Volchkova) or an equal arc and snap to their jumps too and speed into and out of. Sasha's rotations are very fast, very tight, and her position in the air is also usually very, very straight -- and the only one I've seen with faster, tighter rotations was Tara Lipinski.

I don't know why some people think a lot of air between the legs is "powerful" when that is just not a proper backspin position in the air and is not as powerful or technically pure as a real proper backspin position in the air?

[Ellyn]

It could be that Sarah is putting a 3/3 in her SP

Is she? I guess we'll see once she starts competing this season.

because she knows she is going to get dinged for her terrible flutz and for underotating her flip,

Yes, she always takes deductions on the flutz and often on the flip.

as well as for the bent leg in her spiral sequence (a spiral sequence is required in the SP) on the presentation side.

I don't know that "dinged" is the right word there.

The requirements for the SP spiral sequence are that the free leg be held above hip level, that there are at least three such positions with at least one on each foot, and that the seauence cover the full wideth of the rink and the full length if it's serpentine.

Sarah more than meets those requirements. She also gets extra credit for holding her free leg so much higher than required, etc. She'd get even more extra credit if her leg were completely straight.

Sasha certainly gets extra credit for her extension and for some of her difficult transitions (when they work), but there are other areas where her spirals are not as strong as Sarah's or Irina's.

All three of those ladies and several others that we often see on TV have spiral sequences that are well above average for different reasons. They also all have areas where they could be even better and get even more extra credit, but if they don't (can't or won't) make the improvements, there are certainly no deductions for not having the very best extension in the world or not having the very best ice coverage.

I don't know why some people think a lot of air between the legs is "powerful" when that is just not a proper backspin position in the air and is not as powerful or technically pure as a real proper backspin position in the air?

Who said that?

What would make more sense to me is that skaters who have loose air positions also are often referred to as powerful, but the cause and effect are the other way around -- because they're powerful jumpers, they get enough air time that they don't need to pull in as tightly to complete the rotation compared to skaters who don't jump as high and need to rotate faster.

[danibellerika]

I think Sasha has the guts to try it, but I don't think that she needs it.

[duane]

Originally posted by Ellyn
All three of those ladies and several others that we often see on TV have spiral sequences that are well above average for different reasons. They also all have areas where they could be even better and get even more extra credit.

glad you pointed that out, because peggy fleming and dick button always seem to imply that irina's spiral is way below standards.

[liljimeo]

I love Irina's spiral. I mean her free-leg could be higher, but she isn't American afterall! heehee I like how she changes directions and edges without even the slightest glitch or catch on her blade. Irina is very flexible and I am sure if she wanted she could get the position that Sarah and Sasha have... but I think Sasha has to be in some sort of pain during the sequence. It just looks hurtful! I don't blame anybody for not wanting to imitate that girl. !!AND SHE DOES THEM ON BOTH LEGS!!! OOOOUCCCH! I bet the girl could get a job with Cirque de solei (SP?) With her gifts.

[danibellerika]

well, she WAS a gymnast first. That helped a lot with her getting that flexibility.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by liljimeo
I love Irina's spiral. I mean her free-leg could be higher, but she isn't American afterall! heehee I like how she changes directions and edges without even the slightest glitch or catch on her blade. Irina is very flexible and I am sure if she wanted she could get the position that Sarah and Sasha have... but I think Sasha has to be in some sort of pain during the sequence. It just looks hurtful! I don't blame anybody for not wanting to imitate that girl. !!AND SHE DOES THEM ON BOTH LEGS!!! OOOOUCCCH! I bet the girl could get a job with Cirque de solei (SP?) With her gifts. I too love Irina's spiral for it's speed, difficulty, depth of edge and positions.

As to Sasha, she comes by that flexibilty genetically.....was not her father a gymnast at the Czar's court (or something like that!) Sasha's spiral doesn's hurt (like if I tried the splits)....she is built to last (sorry I reverted to her Chevy Truck Commercials)....although she works for every millimeter of stretch, it goes with her natural physical abilities.

[Alexeiskate]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22

As to Sasha, she comes by that flexibilty genetically......

I don't believe flexibility is a genetic trait. My bet is that Sash's extreme flexibility has more to do with her hard work from an early age to stay limber than the existence of a "flexibility" gene that was passed to her by her parents.

[JDC1]

Flexibility is genetic. I have been in therapy off and on for 6 years and all of my therapists have said flexibility is genetic but you can improve it by stretching and working on your flexibility. I am 37 years old, I don't stretch nearly enough, and I can take both of my legs off to the side up to my head with my back totally straight and without intense effort. People constantly ask me if it hurts and the answer is not at all. I can do the splits at a moments notice and I have been complimented on my extension and the height of my leg in my spiral by lots of people. As to how much of her flexibility Sasha inherited and how much she acquired from gymnastics is impossible to guess.

[quarkiki2]

Yes, flexibility is genetic. Like JDC1, I can drop into any type of split without warming up and with no fear of injury. I'm fat now and don't stretch enough, but when I was dancing and actively stretching I could easily attain positions like Sasha's, in fact in stag jumps I often left footprints on my forehead with my back foot. I have just always been that way, every since I could remember. They used to call me "Flexi-Bendi Quarkiki."

In fact, I can't wait until I'm more confident on the ice and can put some of my off-ice spirals ON the ice! I have a lovely sit-to-Y-to Biellman spin (on both legs) in my kitchen, but as I don't spin yet it will have to wait a while to appear on the ice, LOL!

Anyway, I'm willing to bet that the actual positions don't hurt Sasha at all but she may feel some strain in the muscles used to HOLD the position. It's really easy to fling a leg over your head but much, much harder to hold it there.

[roogu]

Remember, just because someone has a certain jump combination planned doesn't always necessarily mean it'll be the exact one performed. A jump could be way off kilter but a skater manages to save it ....... but by that point, so much speed is lost onthe landing thatyou just have to settle for a 3/2 sometimes.

[loveskating]

Hi Ellyn:

I've been told that extension on spirals is part of the presentaiton mark...and that what you say is about the rules as to the technical aspect and is correct.

If extension is part of the presentation mark, then Sarah would not get as much as Sasha and perhaps about the same as Irina in the SP, as well as in the LP...or does extension make absolutely no difference on the presentation mark in the SP? IF not, then some commentators have a lot to answer for, LOL!

While I'm at it, I'm told that there is no rule as to the classic layback being "better" than the "other" laybacks we see...but I've also been told that there, too, the judges reward the classic layback with a better presntation mark?

[Ellyn]

loveskating --

Yes, having especially beautiful or especially difficult (or both) positions in spins or spirals will get a skater more "extra credit" on the second mark than average or below-average positions.

All the skaters we're talking about here are above average, so we're talking only about pluses or extra credit.

When I think of someone getting "dinged" for weak spiral (or spin) positions, I think more of cases where the positions are so weak that they're losing presentation credit on that element, not just getting by with acceptable-but-nothing special. And compared to the average spiral, Hughes's are special, particularly for how high and how long she holds her leg while on a solid inside edge.

"Average" for senior level (which is a lot better than what you see at the lower levels) might be straighter freeleg than Hughes or Slutskaya achieve, but with the leg no higher than in an arched camel spin, and held for a much shorter amount of time and covering much less ice in that time than those skaters hold them. I'd say that actually holding the position once you get the leg there is just as much a part of the aesthetic impact as the actual peak position, which for many skaters is often held for less than a full second.

If you're looking only at the top 4 or six ladies in the world, you could say that Cohen gets the most credit for her spiral *positions* and everyone else suffers on that particular aspect of the presentation mark for that element in relation to her -- i.e., Cohen gets X amount of credit for her positions, and everyone else gets less. If you want to call that "being dinged," well, that's a matter of semantics. I'm looking at it more in terms of the field as a whole, so if I give Cohen X extra credit for her positions and Hughes Y extra credit, Y may be less than X but it's still a positive amount, so in my mind I'm not dinging Hughes, I'm rewarding her. I would reward her even more if her leg were straighter, but hey, even among the top ladies in the world who else besides Cohen gets *more* credit for the beauty of her positions?

[loveskating]

Hi Ellyn:

I don't disagree at all...I guess I use the word "ding" because I don't know how the judges use numbers on these presentation differentiations...I mean, we know that there is up to a .3 deduction for a flutz in the SP...but I haven't a clue how such differentiations as we have been discussing are made other than in relation to one another in the SP.

I agree...I'd put Sarah's spiral sequence at around 4th or 5th in the world depending on who else is skating. As with the jumps, there are more differentiations than just one.

However, when it comes to extension, Sarah does "cheat" hers...she has the illusion of extention, but not the real thing. That doesn't mean she is not a great skater....heck, who else even HAS a 3 sal/3 loop (Irina does), much less landed one consistently (Irina did not), and including when it most counted, last season? Sarah's layback is out of this world good, and numerous other things....but that does not mean, therefore, that Sarah's spiral is either the best or exemplary, whether in the SP or LP.

BTW, Sasha's inside or outside edge spirals are on a huge curve, her edges are solid, she has a good lean, has the best, cleanest extension I've ever seen on either her inside or outside edges, and she has a more difficult spiral in her sequence than anyone other than Irina (who has a catch spiral) but it is presented far better, i.e. Sasha has what they call a "fan spiral" here, which is on a back outside edge. In that fan spiral, her body is almost perpendicular to her legs, which is amazing...I've never seen anyone get that kind of lean on a fan spiral.

Sometimes she exits this spiral into the Sasha Slide (or skid, depending on one's POV) which is also, IMHO, very difficult, not to mention extraordinarily beautiful, when done at full extension, as Sasha does it.

Sasha's spiral sequence has a lot of difficulty AND the presentation as well. Irina's catch spiral needs some work getting into it and out of it on the presentation side, IMHO. When it comes to the catch spiral, its Oksana Baiul who set the standard, IMHO.

IMHO, its not that hard to hold a spiral for a long time...to do so at speed, with controlled accelleration within the spiral, and at full extension, on a curve, is what is really hard.

[AxelAnnie22]

Hi Ellyn:

IMHO, its not that hard to hold a spiral for a long time...to do so at speed, with controlled accelleration within the spiral, and at full extension, on a curve, is what is really hard. ITA. I don't know about being on a skating blade, but I (used to) have a wonderful extension en pointe. I could hold an arabesque forever. The bent wrist that Sarah has is the same inatention to detail (and lack of form)that allows for the bent leg.

The thing that bothers me the most about those kinds of details is that they are so EASY to fix. It is not like repairing a flutz.
An hour in front of a mirror, and Robin yelling "wrist" or "leg" for a week should handle it for heaven's sake! It would make such a difference!

Ellyn and Loveskating-----would you mention it to Sarah and Robin during your next conference call with them!

[AxelAnnie22]

Regarding that 3/3 in the Short Program.

Has Sasha ever placed lower than third in the SP? (Not counting a fall)

If she has, I don't remember it. (But then, with a mind like mine, any kind of forgetting is possible):lol:

Given her ability to place in the top three in the short, I can't imagine that she would add a 3/3 there. It just doesn't get her anywhere new.

What is it I am missing?

[Louis]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22

Given her ability to place in the top three in the short, I can't imagine that she would add a 3/3 there. It just doesn't get her anywhere new.

What is it I am missing?

You're missing that other ladies (Kostner, Nelidina, Ando) are now trying and landing triple lutz-triple toe or triple lutz-triple loop in the short program. By Turino (and probably sooner), it is likely these ladies will have improved their presentation and/or overall consistency to challenge for the top spots if they keep on jumping like they have been.

The successful skaters in Turino will be the ones who plan ahead and start attempting the difficult combinations next year. The skaters who play it safe to make the world podium next year may very well be the ones who are SOL when triple-triples start becoming the standard of the short program in 2005 or 2006. There won't be time left for them to catch up.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Louis
You're missing that other ladies (Kostner, Nelidina, Ando) are now trying and landing triple lutz-triple toe or triple lutz-triple loop in the short program. By Turino (and probably sooner), it is likely these ladies will have improved their presentation and/or overall consistency to challenge for the top spots if they keep on jumping like they have been.

The successful skaters in Turino will be the ones who plan ahead and start attempting the difficult combinations next year. The skaters who play it safe to make the world podium next year may very well be the ones who are SOL when triple-triples start becoming the standard of the short program in 2005 or 2006. There won't be time left for them to catch up.
Yep, you are right! Hadn't thought about that. I said it enough times about Michelle vis a vis SLC. Certainly is true here, with Sasha. I can't wait to see it all unfold.