Sasha Cohen will never make it...

[Jack]

And here's why:

DESPARATION

She left John Nicks, her long-time coach who she loves and who she knows could get her to where she wants to be. She jumped onto the Tarasova bandwagon in hopes of a quick fix. Her whole family uprooted themselves for her and Sasha is going to feel that pressure every time she steps onto the ice.

The one thing I have alsway loved about Sasha is her willingness to seek out help from others. For example, every summer she worked with Judy Blumberg in Sun Valley. Do you think that's going ot be happening with TT?? uhh, no. I jsut dont' see this being a good thing for Sasha. She is a true individual in every sense of the word. Why would she give up her independence and sell her soul to TT?? Why?? Say it with me folks... desparation.

Stick a fork in her, she's done.... :cry:

[lrngsk8-gabi]

I disagree. Even though I'm not totally convinced about the choice of TT I think she did need a change and TT will certainly help her with concentrating on the elements while maintaining her artistry/presentation.

I was truly concerned that she would never be back from her back surgery but she not only came back, she got herself together enough in only one season to get to the Olympics and make a fantastic showing of herself. I think considering the surgery, time off, lack of experience competing that was nothing short of miraculous.

If her body holds up I think she will blow everyone else away...g

[Dustin]

If things weren't working with Nicks and in Southern California, why wouldn't she go somewhere where she would have better training conditions, more ice time, and a coach that she believes would help her in areas she was lacking.

About the pressure, think of this: Tara's mother moved with her to where she was training while her father stayed in Texas. That is a lot harder on your mind to have your parents split because of what you want than for them to move across the country. And it clearly did not affect her skating.

[nymkfan51]

I think training with TT will be a good thing for Sasha. I wish Michelle had teamed up with her.
As far as her whole family moving with her to CT ... I think that is a good thing. Much better, in my opinion, than say ... just her mother going with her and splitting up the family.
I don't think we can really judge what is going to happen this year based on Sasha's skate st SS&S ... I'm sure it was changed somewhat to fit in with the festivities. I see some real potential in it though. When it comes down to it, Sasha will have to start putting together some clean LP's and landing her 3/3. If she does that ... than she will be a force to reckon with. "If" being the key word here.

[AxelAnnie22]

How long has Sasha been with TT? A couple of months? Maybe 3 or 4 months? How long did Tim G. struggle when he changed to Frank - an entire season! I think we should give Sasha a little more time before we "stick a fork in her!"

As to desperation - yes, I can say it, but not in the same sentence discussing Sasha's skating. In Sasha's first (complete)year of International Competition, she is fourth in both Worlds and Olympics. Oh yes, and second at both of the times she has competed as US Nats. I just don't see desperation here. Miraculous talent yes, desperation? no.

And, oh, gee, a family that decides that staying together is their orienting value. Now here is an amazing concept! Sasha and her mom go to TT, see that the training conditions are "professional" and top notch (and I have watched Sasha practice in So Cal - there are lots of other people skating, and other lessons going on.) The family sits down, weighs the options and decides - as a family - to make the move. Desperate? Nope! Family as it should be - YES.

As to leaving Mr. Nicks...could he have guided her to the top? Probably. But, he could not offer her the optimal training conditions she has with TT. Sasha has two 1 1/2 hour sessions on ice that is virtually all her own, rather than two 45 min. sessons on ice she shares with several other skaters and coaches. The conditions were simply NOT available to her with Mr. Nicks. Also, that was quite a social environment going on at Sasha's rink.. Lots of hanging with friends. Nothing wrong with that, if you are skating for fun. However, if you want to be at the top of the podium, it is useful to be with skaters who also have the same goal, and the potential to reach that goal. Sasha made a smart decision as to skating environment. Time will tell if TT is the right person to guide her.

Jack - I think you had better re-think that fork!

[marlyn]

I wouldn't exactly consider myself a Sasha fan YET, but the girl does have guts. She is impressing me and I hope she really does make it. I don't think it is time to get out the "fork" just yet..........wait to see how she does this year! She has talent!

[adrianchew]

SMALL! :P

I do believe good and big things are in store for her this season, and she's nary lost her soul to TT in any way. Her new program brings over the best of her various skating elements, and adds a couple of nifty new ones - the growth is definitely evolutionary and not intended to reinvent the wheel. Even TT knows how not to mess something good. ;)

I'll gladly pass the fork to her instead... she'll be using it quite often this season. :twisted:

[Badams]

i don't think anybody can say that sasha will be done because of going to TT. it's a new relationship and if it doesn't work to sasha's advantage, she can change coaches again. she's still young and she seems to know how to get what she wants. maybe TT will be the best thing for sasha. i think i'll wait and see how her season goes before i say for sure...but i think sasha could be the next world champ.

[melanieuk]

Never say never! ;)
It could be the making of her.

[Hannahclear]

I don't think it can be said that Sasha is done. She's still a newbie really, especially internationally. I think a 2 time US silver medalist, who also recently defeated the Olympic champion (nationals) has to be a threat.

[melanieuk]

First season at Senior level and she's 4th in the her 1st Olympics/world?
It speaks for itself - her success so far.

[lBrokenAnkle]

It is way too soon to tell. I think it could take as long as 2 years to see them impact of a new coaching style on Sasha, or it could be evident right away.

I think Sasha is good at correcting her flaws and if she continues to do so, she is a true contender. It is hard to tell if her nerve problem will go away or not, but I suspect that will be a matter of maturing rather than the impact of one coach or another. And as has been said, even with some flaws and nerves she had some great results this past season!

Laura

[LAVENDER]

Even if the results do not show right away I think Sasha did the right thing in making a change. TT is a good coach and she went from one good coach and to me it was obvious that she needed something different.

[alfongsucks]

She is very talented, if she wants to continue and wants to work hard, then she will do well. It is not like she has a major injury that would be preventing her from excelling. To say stick a fork in Sasha , is just wrong..........to say stick a fork in Naomi Nari Nam may be mean, but at least it has a strong set of facts behind it to back it up .

[hydro]

well, i think she has already made it. when you look at her competitve record, she has done pretty well for herself. most skaters never make it to the top three at Nationals or even go to the Olys or Worlds, Sasha has done all three.

but let's get some facts straight. Sasha should have been on the World team TWO YEARS ago. she missed both oppurtunities based on her own mistakes. first, she failed to medal at junior worlds, second she over-trained an injury. her debut at the Olympics as her first senior international event was LONG overdue.

the other concern with Sasha is that she is quite old by previous standards. she is already 17, the same age as Michelle at the 98 Olympics. yet, she has never landed a 3/3 in competition, let alone a clean LP with 7 triples. Michelle landed her first 3/3 at age 13 in competition, same with Sarah and i believe Irina was 15. can she gain that consitency at this late of age? consistency tends to slip with age, not the reverse. of course, there are exceptions, so maybe Sasha will be one of those exceptions.

i think the move to TT was smart, and it will indeed take time to gel. if people are expecting her to be a new by Skate Canada, they have a lot coming to them. i think maybe by the time Worlds rolls around we'll see TT influence in her.

remember, there are MANY MANY up and comers waiting to break through, not just on the US scene, but on the World scene as well. i think the age rule will benefit Sasha, but it still may be too late. i hope she does well this season. with the Olympic pressure now on Sarah and Michelle most likely sitting out, she could carry the US team.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Hydro ;) - I agree, she actually HAS made it - but I don't think she "stick in a fork done".

I believe Sasha may indeed be a late bloomer due to skating interruptus:lol: but that might be a good thing. I really think it's better long term when people hit their peak a little older.

Concerning the 3/3 - I think that's more nerves from inexperience competing - she is capable and she is capable of the quad, a beauty too8O

Overall I'm verrry hopeful...g

[Lark]

Just look at Fumie. She has been on the scene for YEARS (she competed in the 1994 Olympics, correct?), and look what she has been able to accomplish just recently. I say let's wait awhile, Sasha may hit her groove.

[pink roses]

Can we really say that Sasha is any more "despirate" than any other top contender? She's only done what many, many skaters before her have done.

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by Lark
Just look at Fumie. She has been on the scene for YEARS (she competed in the 1994 Olympics, correct?),

No, last year was her first/only Olympic experience.

I'm not sure what you're thinking of -- the Japanese ladies at 1994 Olympics were Yuka Sato and Rena Inoue. In 1998, it was Shizuka Arakawa.

Suguri was 4th at 1996 Jr. Worlds (Lipinski was 5th, for what it's worth). She made her (senior) Worlds debut in 1997 and also appeared at Worlds in 1999 and 2001, and at 4Continents I believe for all four years it has been in existence, winning in 2001.


and look what she has been able to accomplish just recently. I say let's wait awhile, Sasha may hit her groove.

As others have said, she's already had some pretty good results. If by "never make it" the original poster means "will never win Worlds or Olympics" -- well, by those criteria hardly any skaters ever make it, but if they all quit as soon as it became clear that it was unlikely they would, there would be hardly any skaters left to fill out the rest of the field.

And presumably Sasha believes that she can make it onto the medal stand and maybe to the top. Time will tell.

Personally, I'd rather see skaters aim to stick around as long as they enjoy skating, remain free of serious injuries, and don't run themselves and their families into ridiculous amounts of debt. Especially if they can still improve and/or maintain a high level of technical merit and 'artistry.' I expect there will be better yet to come from Cohen as a mature skater than what we've seen of the baby ballerina version.

[Lark]

You are correct of course Ellyn. I was thinking of a banner that I saw in the audience on my 1997 Worlds tape that said something like "Go Fumie". I was thinking it was 1994 Olympics. :D

[Jack]

You can tell that Sasha onsiders "success" standing ONLY on the top of the podium and with that kind of presure on herself, she'll self-destruct every time. When is the last time she skated both a clean LP and SP?? Sasha rocks, but she will be gone before her star is able to shine.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Oh come on Jack - I don't get the feeling she self destructs everytime she's not perfect at all and all the good ones try for the top.

Regarding the "clean" program - it's totally possible (as we have seen many times) to get the top spot without being clean. To me it's more important that she's learned to get up after a mistake...g

[Tony Wheeler]

Ellyn- Suguri wasn't at 4CC this season :)

[Excidra]

I think Sasha still has time to improve. Consistenly, she is okay not as bad as people make it out to be.
Last season Sasha had pressure on her shoulders. She had prove that her injuries is not going to hold her down. Everyone thought Angela was going to get that 3rd spot and go to SLC, actually believed that as well because Angela established her self as a medal contender. But Sasha proved everyone wrong and beat the Olympic champion.

I think next season we will see a new Sasha.:D

[Ellyn]

Thanks, Tony -- I couldn't remember for sure.

[michele]

Fumie's record does indeed show that one shouldn't give up. :) After her good "debut" at 96 Jr. Worlds, she pretty much self-destructed in her 97 Worlds LP in a *very* similar fashion to Nikodinov, contributing to Japan only getting one spot for Nagano. Then she was injured and lost the spot at 98 Nats to Shizuka Arakawa. She came back the next fall and surpised everyone by performing well on the GP and making the Final, but again completely blew 99 Worlds (I think she placed 20th?) The next season she had more injuries and didn't even make the 2000 World team (Onda went instead). If she had placed just 11th at 2001 Worlds, I think she'd been history as far as the Japanese federation was concerned.

Point is, I always liked Fumie's skating but never thought she'd actually finally make it to the podium. :D Hanging on to win the 2006 Olys might be a concern based on Sasha's current lack of consistency and no 3-3's, but there's absolutely no reason for her not to at least win a World title.

[loveskating]

I think that I do not want Sasha to change too much with Tarasova, as Sasha is already my fave!!! Its more the sophistication of the choreography and emotion, plus the approach to training and to competitions where TT will have a large affect.

EVERY skater wants to stand on top of the podium -- I've observed that there are objectively only 3 ways to do so: (1) be better than the rest and when it counts most; (2) be chosen by federation politics; (3) just be consistent and base yourself on other's mistakes.

Sasha is so good, she so defines stretch out and turn out and innovation and quality on ALL the elements and on the basics (I agree with Maria B., Sasha's edges are so soft and quiet and flowing) with the sole exception of a slight flutz and not having a solid 3/3 that it would be truly amazing if she did not win lots more gold. She defines numerous elements.

[dmr65]

Don't stick a fork in her yet, she's not done. 8O


Old quote by Tamara Moskvina... A great pair has to have time to bake...

Sasha has yet to be put in the oven, she's been kneaded, now it's time to put her in the oven... It takes time.. :D

[karina1974]

Originally posted by melanieuk
First season at Senior level and she's 4th in the her 1st Olympics/world?
It speaks for itself - her success so far.

Actually, it's her third. She won silver at 2000 Nationals (won the SP over Michelle), but failed to medal at Junior world's, so she couldn't go to senior Worlds that year. Plus, she did appear at at least one GP event the following season. Her back injury precluded a shot at the 2001 World Team, however. This was her first full season as a Senior skater.

[cienicsk8]

If you wanna get real picky, this year is her her second *full *season as a senior. In the 1999-2000 season she only competed as a senior at Nationals. She did the JGP, picking up a win in Sweden, in fall of '99.
In 2000-2001, she did Cup of Russia and Nations, placing 4th and 5th.
She then had to withdraw from Nationals due to the stress fracture in her back.
2001-2002 she competed nonstop, and went to Olys and Worlds.

[ClevelandDancer]

As far as "uprooting her entire family" ... Sasha has completed her high school studies and will turn 18 a month from now. She's at the age where many leave home and go away to college. I'm sure it's great for her that her family decided to move with her, it definately wasn't a must that any of them do so. I'm not implying that at 18 most are ready to take on the responsibilities on independent living, but it's not unheard of. Also, moving for training could be setup very similar to going away to college. In fact, in training with a single team of coaches that will check up on her every single day Sasha would have much more supervision and support than your typical freshman college student.

As for whether the training move itself was positive, negative or neutral ... it remains to be seen. Sasha seems to be an very intense person that knows what she wants. I was both surprised and impressed with the progress she made last year. She also seems to be quad-hungry, and Tarasova has experience with skaters-with-quads (Kulik, Yagudin) whereas Nicks does not (to my knowledge).

ClevelandDancer

[duane]

i've always considered last season as sasha's first year as a senior, because, as cienicsk8 states, she only skated as a senior at nationals in 2000 (tho, as stated, she would have gone to Worlds that year if she had landed in the top 3 at jr worlds, which she didnt do), and because she withdrew from competition due to injury during the 2001 season.

i'll be the first to admit that i personally wasnt all that thrilled when sasha changed coaches because i thought things were going quite well with john nicks. she was performing much better under pressure, respect from the international judges was growing, and she was making a very respectable climb in the ranks. still, even those she is now under TT, i still see an extremely bright future for sasha, and definitely think that she will make it! :)

[hiliairyh]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by duane
[B]i've always considered last season as sasha's first year as a senior, because, as cienicsk8 states, she only skated as a senior at nationals in 2000 (tho, as stated, she would have gone to Worlds that year if she had landed in the top 3 at jr worlds, which she didnt do), and because she withdrew from competition due to injury during the 2001 season.

I consider 01 - 02 as her second season of senior competition. 2000 was her first. In 2000 - 2001 she had 2 GP assignment, and skated at Lalique and COR? accompanied by the veteran Sarah Hughes LOL. SC was at nationls 2001, but withdrew. In some ways we can think SC already has been a senior for 3 seasons.

[Show 42]

This is way too early to proclaim Sasha "done". The season hasn't even started yet.....let's wait and see what develops.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by hiliairyh
[QUOTE] [/i]
[B]
I consider 01 - 02 as her second season of senior competition. 2000 was her first. In 2000 - 2001 she had 2 GP assignment, and skated at Lalique and COR? accompanied by the veteran Sarah Hughes LOL. SC was at nationls 2001, but withdrew. In some ways we can think SC already has been a senior for 3 seasons. I respectfully disagree.

What you are calling her first senior season, she skated in only one Senior Event: US Nationals - where she placed 2nd.

What you call her second season, she did not complete, because of her back injury. She had to withdraw from Nats and Worlds (assuming she would have qualified.

Last season was her first full season, her first Worlds, and of course her first OLYS.

[Yazmeen]

Let's not stick forks in ourselves with such predictions!!! :P My gut feeling is that this will be Sasha's breakout year. If she gets all her elements consistent, Sarah and everyone else will have to watch out.

This is going to be a fun season--let the skating BEGIN!!! 8)

[loveskating]

Sasha did compete in 2001 -- after early season problems, she skated two clean programs at Cup of Russia, and was a huge hit with the Russians...she was given a prize as the most artistic skater.

She got a 5.9 for presentation from the Italian judge and if I recall, several other high marks for presentation. I can't remember how she finished, but I thought she was considerably undermarked. In hindsight, I also realize that she had that very bad injury that soon forced her to withdraw to heal at the time, so that makes it even more remarkable.

[Dustin]

Originally posted by loveskating
Sasha did compete in 2001 -- after early season problems, she skated two clean programs at Cup of Russia, and was a huge hit with the Russians...she was given a prize as the most artistic skater.

She got a 5.9 for presentation from the Italian judge and if I recall, several other high marks for presentation. I can't remember how she finished, but I thought she was considerably undermarked. In hindsight, I also realize that she had that very bad injury that soon forced her to withdraw to heal at the time, so that makes it even more remarkable.

Here are the LP scores (big range for presentation) from Cup of Russia, she finished 4th:
5.3 5.4 5.5 5.5 5.7 5.3 5.5
5.4 5.6 5.7 5.7 5.9 5.5 5.7

[loveskating]

Hi Clevelandancer:

Good point! Sasha is "quad hungry" and Tarasova does have experience with the quad...in competition, in a winning program overall (IMHO, Kulik's Rhapsody, Yag's Gladiator and Lawrence were all really top notch programs as programs, maybe masterpieces).

I'd LOVE to see Sasha Cohen land a quad in competition, although I don't think she needs it to win all over the place. She's landed a quad salchow lots, including on film taken by ABC in practice, and that alone is stunning as it seems to be news every time a girl lands a quad anywhere. She has enormous natural talent.

In the past, we've had Midori Ito and Tonya Harding, both of whom were incredible jumpers, but did not have the greatest presentation...but in Sasha, we have a skater with maximum presentation skills and also the jumps...so to me, it would be so great to see her known as a great jumper, the first to land a quad in competition, and also in a league with the greatest as to presentation as well (personally, I think she is the best as to presentation that I have ever seen, anyway).

[danibellerika]

Sasha's not "done" rather she's just getting started. She's too motivated to not get what she wants. And she continues to improve on a lot of her problems, so she DOES know that they exist. She lost some time with that back injury so she's been playing catch up. But she's doing it quickly which is a good thing. I think that changing to TT can give Sasha that boost of confidence that she needs to keep her head together throughout her programs. And also working with other elite skaters can help a lot.

[speedy]

Sasha has a great future ahead of her, no doubt...but Sarah is the one that has proven time and again that she is the one to beat. She's topped Michelle (and Irina) with strong, consistent performances, and kicked butt in the Olympics when everyone else faltered. Sarah has a mental toughness that Sasha doesn't have yet. Maybe Tarasova will help her in that department, we'll see. Should be a fun season. ;)

[loveskating]

I wouldn't say that Sarah has been the one to beat...that implies a level of accomplishment in her skating that I do not think has happened yet. I'd say, rather, that Sarah has a difficult 3/3 and is consistent quantatively, and therefore has been in a position to win when others who are overall more acomplished skaters, like Irina, Michelle, Angela and Sasha, falter.

I like Sarah, there are wonderful things in her skating, it was so close at SLC that its not worth arguing over, so I'm not sorry she won or any of that, but I do object to valting certain aspects of her skating which I find really substandard, like the underotations, the huge flutz, as well as other details, to some level of relative perfection that simply does not exist.

Sarah's 3 sal/3 loop is not nearly as good as Irina's, even. Its underotated by 1/4 whereas Irina's is underrotated by 1/8 if that most of the time...and Irina gets more height, there is more similiarity between the first and second jumps in the combination, which, when it comes to marking combinations of any kind, is one of the differentiating factors (combinations are marked as one thing, not 2 or 3 separate jumps, but if they are unsuccessful, they can become 2 jumps or a jump sequence).

Perhaps next season, she will be the one to beat...because she has improved a lot.

[rack]

The most interesting thing about ladies last season was its unpredictability. Sarah defeated Irina and Michelle a couple of times, Michelle defeated Sarah a couple of times, Irina defeated Sarah and Michelle a couple of times, Sasha scored higher than Sarah at least once, and I think Maria defeated Irina once. There was no single skater-to-beat, and I suspect there won't be one this year either.

Let's hope all the skaters are healthy throughout the season, that the competitions are fiercely fought, that the judges make all the right calls (i.e. ones that I agree with!), and that every event makes at least some fans happy.:D

[nits]

I agree with Rack.

[Yazmeen]

I also agree with Rack, and frankly, seasons like that are more interesting than one in which the rankings are always the same. It should be an interesting season!!!

[Greek Chic]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
How long has Sasha been with TT? A couple of months? Maybe 3 or 4 months? How long did Tim G. struggle when he changed to Frank - an entire season! I think we should give Sasha a little more time before we "stick a fork in her!"

As to desperation - yes, I can say it, but not in the same sentence discussing Sasha's skating. In Sasha's first (complete)year of International Competition, she is fourth in both Worlds and Olympics. Oh yes, and second at both of the times she has competed as US Nats. I just don't see desperation here. Miraculous talent yes, desperation? no.

And, oh, gee, a family that decides that staying together is their orienting value. Now here is an amazing concept! Sasha and her mom go to TT, see that the training conditions are "professional" and top notch (and I have watched Sasha practice in So Cal - there are lots of other people skating, and other lessons going on.) The family sits down, weighs the options and decides - as a family - to make the move. Desperate? Nope! Family as it should be - YES.

As to leaving Mr. Nicks...could he have guided her to the top? Probably. But, he could not offer her the optimal training conditions she has with TT. Sasha has two 1 1/2 hour sessions on ice that is virtually all her own, rather than two 45 min. sessons on ice she shares with several other skaters and coaches. The conditions were simply NOT available to her with Mr. Nicks. Also, that was quite a social environment going on at Sasha's rink.. Lots of hanging with friends. Nothing wrong with that, if you are skating for fun. However, if you want to be at the top of the podium, it is useful to be with skaters who also have the same goal, and the potential to reach that goal. Sasha made a smart decision as to skating environment. Time will tell if TT is the right person to guide her.

Jack - I think you had better re-think that fork!

Couldn't have said it better myself:!: :D :D :D