Salchows

[Laura H]

My 8 year old son has a beautiful Sal, but it's just not clicking with me . . . I've read through the threads here and I know there needs to be a strong check on the 3 turn - and I can hold that 3 forever, but something is wrong . . . I just keep going backwards, I'm not getting any (*grip?* for lack of a better word) on the ice so as to be able to jump off that edge. So when I *jump* it's mostly just a skid and . . . frustration. :frus:

Help me out here and break it down - at the moment when you jump - where *should* your weight be - and where are the arms positioned?

I had a EUREKA moment over the weekend with my one-foot spin entry from backwards crossovers (I wasn't *getting* that either - but now I *get* it - magical!) - it was a simple thing with bringing my free arm across. Anyway, while I'm on that high, I figured I would go for broke and see if I could figure out the problem with the Salchow too . . . :lol: thanks for any tips anyone can pass along!

[sue123]

Sorry, I wish I had any for you. But I want ot congratulate you on your eureka moment with the one foot spin. I would also be interested in hearing tips since me and the sal don't rreally get along too well. I'm trying to improve our relationship :giveup:

[flippet]

Help me out here and break it down - at the moment when you jump - where *should* your weight be - and where are the arms positioned?


Well, let's see. At the actual moment of take-off, my weight is (I *think*) pretty centered on my body--as you hold that back edge, you should start to bend the skating knee and "sit", and at the same time, start 'scooping' with the free arm and knee. By the time you take off, you are actually kind of squared up--your arms are kind of in the 'beach ball' position, your free knee is up and slightly 'pointing' in the direction you want to jump (so if you froze yourself at that second, you'd be slightly 'pigeon-toed', because your legs are starting to cross...that doesn't last for long, however). Your weight is shifting to center, because when you land, your weight will now be over your formerly free leg (now your landing leg). Just like a waltz jump, you're transferring your weight from your takeoff leg to your landing leg.


It's been quite a while since I've done a salchow, so anyone else, feel free to jump in or correct this.

[Isk8NYC]

Help me out here and break it down - at the moment when you jump - where *should* your weight be - and where are the arms positioned?Here goes (CCW skater):

1) Setup -- LFI edge; toe push to change onto a LFO edge.
2) Arms rotate to the left (right arm across body.); LFO 3T; You're now on a LBI edge.
3) Hooooold LBI edge; Arms are checked - left in front of your chest, right arm over your free (right) leg. Leg is in a landing position.
4) BEND YOUR LEFT KNEE. NOW BEND IT MORE! (It's never enough ;) )
5) Keep your left arm in front - it's okay if it opens a little to the left as you jump, but don't let the arm come above your chest.
6) Shift your weight to the ball of your left foot (still on that edge). Don't drop your left hip; keep your free leg behind you.
7) Jump off that edge by bringing your right arm AND leg around to the front in one smooth motion at the same time.
8) Arms meet at mid-chest and stay there until you land on the right toepick/RBO edge.
9) You won't really feel it, but your weight shifts from left to right.
10) Landing position check with left arm in front, right arm to the side. (Or 10:2 if you it's easier for you.)

I recently switched from "scooping" the free leg around (as Flippet recommended) to "kneeing" it and the results have been great. Just bring your free leg through, leading with the bent knee. It's stopping the dizziness and really let me leap up into the air. (I was probably dropping the hip to scoop around.)

ETA: Flippet also brings the knee through, not around.

[flippet]

I recently switched from "scooping" the free leg around (as Flippet recommended) to "kneeing" it and the results have been great.


Hee. I guess it all depends on what you mean by 'scooping'! Because I guess that when I think 'scoop', I'm thinking of scooping with the knee. :lol: I imagine that we're actually doing the same thing, just using different terms.

[Isk8NYC]

Hee. I guess it all depends on what you mean by 'scooping'! Because I guess that when I think 'scoop', I'm thinking of scooping with the knee. :lol: I imagine that we're actually doing the same thing, just using different terms.Ohhhh. I see. Yep, I think we're in agreement.

Eons ago, I was taught to do this jump, my coach said to "scoop around and out to the side" with a straight free leg.
Result? I would spin a bit on the ice and feel like limbs were going everywhere! LOL

I will say that my little pre-pre-prel student has a beautiful salchow. I'm very proud of that.

[flippet]

Eons ago, I was taught to do this jump, my coach said to "scoop around and out to the side" with a straight free leg.
Result? I would spin a bit on the ice and feel like limbs were going everywhere! LOL


AAACCKKK!!! No, no, no! 8O Oy vey. That's the way to do it if you want to get zero height, catch an edge, and end up on your tail!

:lol:

Nope, UP is the way to go! Straight UP, and THROUGH, leading with the KNEE!

Lessee....when I think 'scoop', I'm thinking like....you know those big industrial-size barrels of things like dry beans, or dog food or something, that you scoop out with a big plastic scoop? You dig down with it, then SCOOP up on a vertical curve. I guess I think of my knee as the scoop. Or, like digging ice cream out of the carton with a spoon. Once your spoon is set (like, once your 'check' is set to jump), you SCOOP it up!

Semantics are funny, aren't they? :lol:

[doubletoe]

I was just fixing the takeoff of my double salchow yesterday, and got it working well, so it's fresh in my mind. Here are my notes, adjusted for the single salchow:

1. Keep your upper body and head really still and squared during the 3-turn (I imagine I'm in a neck brace or body cast!). Holding both the entrance and the exit of the 3-turn for a count of 3, on a nice bent knee.
2. As you exit the 3-turn, bend your skating knee deeper. Stay aligned right over your hips; don't pitch your torso forward or extend your free leg too far behind you.
3. When you feel the edge coming to an end and you feel your weight moving to the front of your blade, do this in one quick motion: push the inside ankle of your skating foot down toward the ice, bending the ankle deeply and getting your weight onto the inside of the ball of your foot. Now spring up, rolling up from the ball of the foot to the toepick, pointing your toes to get maximum spring off the toepick.
4. As you leave the ice, bring the free leg through so that it points in the direction of travel. In other words, if you are traveling south on the takeoff edge (going backwards and looking at the north end of the rink), then as you leave the ice, your free leg should scoop around and cross in front of the takeoff leg and point you towards the south end of the rink. Once you're off the ice and facing the direction of travel, extend the free leg forward and pretend you're doing a big, straight waltz jump, since it's exactly the same as a waltz jump once you're facing forward.
For me, the "scoop" part means leading with the inside of the thigh of my free leg, just above the knee.

[Team Arthritis]

I've been working on the single sal for a long time, its coming together. I have trouble with #2 of what 2toes said above. for me, the key to this was simply gliding along on the LBI edge with my body square but forcing myself to stay right over the skating foot - NOT with my weight somewhere inbetween the 2 legs, yet maintaining a solid edge. I'd practice getting this from a MO or 3. When I could finally do a Sal from a simple back glide, no matter how I got there, then it started to get bigger - no whip mostly kick!
Lyle

[iceballerina]

I am glad someone posted this question because I this was just shown the single Salchow in class. For some reason after my 3 turn, my free leg drops. I am trying very hard to keep it up, but it's been a struggle. I say to myself-whatever you do, don't touch the ice (with the free foot-right foot) after the 3 turn, so if I succeed in that much, then I end up doing a weird backwars circle. Teacher said now I have developed a bad habit of dropping the leg, so I am really trying hard to keep it up, but it's very very frustrating. And a little update-still don't have that ***** one foot spin yet-not even close. I am pretty much ready to give up!:??

[LilJen]

ballerina, you might be dropping your free hip. Coach said something about this to me re:my 3-turns last lesson--think about holding your free hip high on the 2nd half of the 3-turn. Made a HUGE difference! Not that I can do a salchow or anything. . . haven't tried in a while.

[doubletoe]

Ice ballerina, have you had your teacher check the blade mounting on your left skate? If your teacher can't see anything else you are doing wrong, it's possible that the blade is mounted too far to the outside or on a diagonal, which puts you on too much of an inside edge. If that isn't the problem, just focus on keeping your shoulders level and keeping your right hip lifted.

[Laura H]

I am glad someone posted this question because I this was just shown the single Salchow in class. For some reason after my 3 turn, my free leg drops. I am trying very hard to keep it up, but it's been a struggle. I say to myself-whatever you do, don't touch the ice (with the free foot-right foot) after the 3 turn, so if I succeed in that much, then I end up doing a weird backwars circle. Teacher said now I have developed a bad habit of dropping the leg, so I am really trying hard to keep it up, but it's very very frustrating. And a little update-still don't have that ***** one foot spin yet-not even close. I am pretty much ready to give up!:??


you know what is funny? I have read through all the answers to your question on spins SOOOO many times! So I'm glad that I asked a question that you could benefit from!

I can't wait til my next skating session to try the salchow again . . . GREAT descriptions from everyone about takeoff position, etc . . . I think I might be on my way to *getting it!*

[Laura H]

Hey ballerina . . . here is a little inspiration for us . . . ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_vgZZ7XJbE

[iceballerina]

Well thanks everyone. I may just need to get new skates and blades since I am still using the old ridells -the kind that the blade already comes on the skate. I also found this link:

http://www.keyboardcompanion.com/RickArticle/Salchow.html

I might take another private lesson as well. My class is only 30 minutes once a week and we get next to no individual attention :frus:


here is another link-I think I can get a good visual of the scooping of the free leg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kingonice.com/animation/salchow.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.kingonice.com/animation/salchow.htm&h=168&w=200&sz=693&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=I2VZ1rIVSPCDVM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bsalchow%2B%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den% 26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[Isk8NYC]

AAACCKKK!!! No, no, no! 8O Oy vey. That's the way to do it if you want to get zero height, catch an edge, and end up on your tail!You've seen my old salchow, then? I never caught the edge or fell, I just did most of the jump in an on-ice spin. I think that I used to have really strong back inside edges and the scooop didn't drop half as much. I was actually scraping that free foot a few months ago, which is when I switched to kneeing the jump.

I'm trying a new off-ice exercise, courtesy of our rink's FS Ballet teacher, to strengthen the hip lift. When I figure it out and decide that it works, I'll post.

Nope, UP is the way to go! Straight UP, and THROUGH, leading with the KNEE!Amen, sister! I totally agree, and that's how I jump and teach it now. I really think TEACHING helps me skate better myself because I'm much more fussy these days.
Semantics are funny, aren't they? :lol:Hilarious. Plus, we all try to not insult each other, so we gently disagree. This is a very nice Board, don'tchathink?

[Team Arthritis]

IceBallerina -(BTW I love the handle;) )
FWIW - I've been working on 3turns for years and still have problems and Ive been told I have years more work to go, sigh. :roll: Anyway, I have recently improved my 3's by concentrating on keeping my ankle tight before and after the turn rather than just during the turn. Sorry if this sounds nebulous but I just feel tension in the ankle and WOW its suddenly much easier to check the three without dropping my free hip. Don't give up, work on something different!
Lyle

[Laura H]

Well thanks everyone. I may just need to get new skates and blades since I am still using the old ridells -the kind that the blade already comes on the skate. I also found this link:

http://www.keyboardcompanion.com/RickArticle/Salchow.html

I might take another private lesson as well. My class is only 30 minutes once a week and we get next to no individual attention :frus:


here is another link-I think I can get a good visual of the scooping of the free leg
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kingonice.com/animation/salchow.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.kingonice.com/animation/salchow.htm&h=168&w=200&sz=693&hl=en&start=3&tbnid=I2VZ1rIVSPCDVM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3D%2Bsalchow%2B%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den% 26lr%3D%26sa%3DN


I asked the same question a few months back (about getting new skates/blades) and the consensus seemed to be a resounding YES . . . the recreational skates just aren't the greatest for spinning, not much rocker. My break in period was kinda rough with the new boots . . . the higher level boots are VERY stiff . . . but I'm starting to really like them now.

[Skate@Delaware]

I had a mental block on the salchow for the longest time...what really helped me was having my coach break it down into "chunks" and have me do it at the boards...then also think "backwards waltz jump"!!

After 2-3 weeks of doing the chunks, it all clicked together! So, it was:
-back crossovers,
-3-turn
-step around (simulated jump)
-landing

Now it's my best and most favorite jump!!!

(now if we can just get me to land the loop on one foot!):frus:

[cecealias]

To get lift for the salchow, the 3 turn has to be as flat as possible after turn.
I have always done the takeoff with a straighter free leg - no knee-ing up, the lift - if done right - should come from the skating leg. I have more tips, if interested, please PM me.





(as a side note, i probably am doing something right as i managed shockingly, to rotate a triple sal in the harness the other day :o )

[Casey]

(as a side note, i probably am doing something right as i managed shockingly, to rotate a triple sal in the harness the other day :o )
:bow: Congratulations :D

[russiet]

To get lift for the salchow, the 3 turn has to be as flat as possible after turn.
I have always done the takeoff with a straighter free leg - no knee-ing up, the lift - if done right - should come from the skating leg. ...(as a side note, i probably am doing something right as i managed shockingly, to rotate a triple sal in the harness the other day :o )

Flat 3-turn...hmmm. So maybe THAT'S my issue. I have a big looping 3-turn entry right now, and I need to do something to make this jump work better.

My coach, while remarkably good (was a principal for Disney on Ice), relies much upon demonstration and not so much on verbal instruction. English is his second language, and does not flow as freely as his skates.

I pick up great ideas here.

Thanks.

And congatulations on the harness triple.

[Laura H]

To get lift for the salchow, the 3 turn has to be as flat as possible after turn.
I have always done the takeoff with a straighter free leg - no knee-ing up, the lift - if done right - should come from the skating leg. I have more tips, if interested, please PM me.





(as a side note, i probably am doing something right as i managed shockingly, to rotate a triple sal in the harness the other day :o )

NOW, I have to share my story about how when our instructor was first teaching the salchow . . . and told us (keep in mind, this is a group of 4 adult skaters - who actually LEARNED to skate as adults, so you get the picture) . . . "now, you need to try to keep your free leg straight . . else you may have trouble when you move up to doubles!"

First we were 8O . . .and then :lol: . . . well, hey, at least she has high aspirations for us, right??

[Laura H]

Oh yes, and I forgot to say . . . CONGRATULATIONS on the triple . . .awesome!!

[Team Arthritis]

Anyone notice on the uTube vids that most, but not all, of the skaters had a pretty significant bend at the waist right before takeoff?
Lyle

[doubletoe]

Flat 3-turn...hmmm. So maybe THAT'S my issue. I have a big looping 3-turn entry right now, and I need to do something to make this jump work better.


If you're pushing out onto the 3-turn from a RBO edge (usually a mohawk exit), try pushing out slightly outside of the circle, rather than staying on the same circle. That will make your 3-turn entry more controlled and less curly, which will make it easier to control the exit as well. Also, keep your shoulders and head completely still and squared, rather than turning your head during the 3-turn (you may not even realize you're doing it).

[peanutskates]

So today I started learning the salchow. My main problem is that it's underrotated. But can anyone direct me to a slow-mo video of this jump? also, any learning tips would be appreciated!

thanks

[Sessy]

Here's a triple salchow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAKvA8Lf2iY

Here's me doing a few single ones (they passed the test, but they do have errors in them, keep in mind! The triple salchow girl is presumably doing it technically correct though!) on my youtube (first there's 2 bad toeloops in slowmotion on that video, then the salchows)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuBqeLb0-84

Note, I'm doing the salchow from a 3-turn, and the triple salchow girl is doing it from a mohawk. But what really matters is that you're on a left inside edge (right inside if you jump clockwise) before takeoff.

Also, kick from your heel and not your toe to avoid catching the ice, and I've had to learn to kick like... Like you'd kick a ball, in a straight line, instead of swinging the leg around like for a scratch spin like I did at first (and still do a little), because that really de-stabilizes your air position, and also makes it harder to get around in the air because you've got this big leg sticking out on the side, slowing your rotation down.
Also it helps to pull in your arms, you'll get the rotation easyer that way. But I've jumped it with arms all stretched out at first, but then you need to jump higher.
And oh yeah it helps me to push my shoulders and arms down on the 3-turn entry and it helps me to think like... "straight-straight-up!" making the 3-turn kind of flat, not VERY curvy.

[peanutskates]

oh thank you, Sessy, that video really helped! Also, even if your toeloops weren't amazing (no offence!), I can still see how you're meant to do them. So thanks for that too, I can now try learning the toeloop in patch. because I've been doing a half-toeloop so far.

BTW, how do you make your vids go in slow-mo?

[Sessy]

Before you start copying my toeloop, read what people had to say about it in my thread:
http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=23443&page=3

[peanutskates]

lol, i wasn't going to copy it, but I do see the IDEA in it

[techskater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfFHJBL0joQ&mode=related&search=

Here's one from Ice Moves with slo mo!

[doubletoe]

Focus on getting a deep knee and ankle bend just before taking off, and point your toes of your takeoff foot as you take off. That will give you more rotation and more spring. :)

[SkatingOnClouds]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfFHJBL0joQ&mode=related&search=

Here's one from Ice Moves with slo mo!

That's good to see it in slo mo from different angles. I have to ask though, when I watch these videos, it looks to me like the skater has their free foot actually touching the ice as they sweep it forward.

Is this an optical illusion, or is it meant to be done that way?

[SkatingOnClouds]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfFHJBL0joQ&mode=related&search=

Here's one from Ice Moves with slo mo!

That's good to see it in slo mo from different angles. I have to ask though, when I watch these videos, it looks to me like the skater has their free foot actually touching the ice as they sweep it forward.

Is this an optical illusion, or is it meant to be done that way?

[Sessy]

It's not an optical illusion, if you look carefully her free leg makes some snow. But my teacher claims it's not supposed to be done that way. But then I've never seen my group class teacher do doubles or triples, and this girl does them... So I dunno.

[jskater49]

That's good to see it in slo mo from different angles. I have to ask though, when I watch these videos, it looks to me like the skater has their free foot actually touching the ice as they sweep it forward.

Is this an optical illusion, or is it meant to be done that way?

Ah another skatefan controversy. I have not seen it, but I have heard the ISU has videos of famous skaters doing things you are not supposed to do -and none other than Brian Boitano doing a two footed take off on the his triple salchow. Goebel's famous quad salchow was often naysayed for that take off. And then there were those that claimed if you look close enough EVERYONE does it.

j

[jcookie1982]

That's good to see it in slo mo from different angles. I have to ask though, when I watch these videos, it looks to me like the skater has their free foot actually touching the ice as they sweep it forward.

Is this an optical illusion, or is it meant to be done that way?

I was thinking the same thing, and I know your definitely not supossed to touch your free foot down.

[Laura H]

I got a LOT of good advice in this thread . . .

Moderator Edit: Merged threads, removed link.

[sunjoy]

Here goes (CCW skater):
5) Keep your left arm in front - it's okay if it opens a little to the left as you jump, but don't let the arm come above your chest.Hmm. I first learned the jump "by feel", and getting a good rhythm to it. Last week I tried to go step-by-step the way my book (Petkevich) describes it, and unsuprisingly I couldn't do it, since it's now happening in my head and not my body (yet). I do wonder if I'm very confused about the take-off arms though? Petkevich writes;Bring your arms back, then forward, in the elliptical path described for the waltz jump...

The take-off is surprisingly similar to that for the waltz jump. In fact, at the end of the BI edge, you will do a three-turn and actually lift off from the toe pickThe take-off does feel like a waltz to me, both when I was doing it by feel, and now. But do you really bring *both* arms back? None of the videos showed the skating (CCW: left) arm passing back in the way of a waltz. It seems like it *should* be more of a bounce off the check of the three-turn: pulling in, mostly?

Second Q: I'm doing the whole setup for the jump: RI mohawk, step to RO edge, rotate arms, step to LO edge. This builds up a lot of rotational momentum, and makes the jump easier for me. Is this "cheating"? Is it better that I learn to do it directly from a LO edge?

thx.

[doubletoe]

Hmm. I first learned the jump "by feel", and getting a good rhythm to it. Last week I tried to go step-by-step the way my book (Petkevich) describes it, and unsuprisingly I couldn't do it, since it's now happening in my head and not my body (yet). I do wonder if I'm very confused about the take-off arms though? Petkevich writes;The take-off does feel like a waltz to me, both when I was doing it by feel, and now. But do you really bring *both* arms back? None of the videos showed the skating (CCW: left) arm passing back in the way of a waltz. It seems like it *should* be more of a bounce off the check of the three-turn: pulling in, mostly?

Second Q: I'm doing the whole setup for the jump: RI mohawk, step to RO edge, rotate arms, step to LO edge. This builds up a lot of rotational momentum, and makes the jump easier for me. Is this "cheating"? Is it better that I learn to do it directly from a LO edge?

thx.

It sounds like you were probably doing everything right and the Petkevich wording just confused you (heck, it sure confused me!). I think it's good to do the RFI mohawk, RBO edge, then LFO 3-turn for the salchow takeoff. There's a good reason most skaters do it that way in their programs. ;) As for the arms, keep your left arm in front of you at 11:00 and your right arm to the side at 3:00 from the 3-turn entrance to the 3-turn exit, keeping the shoulders completely still the whole time. As you reach the end of the 3-turn exit edge, deeply bend your left ankle and knee, bring your free leg to 2:00 and bring the right arm to 1:00 so that your hips and shoulders are squared with each other. Now spring up off the toepick and bring your right leg through, leading with the inside of the right thigh, and free foot pointing you in the direction of travel (so that the rest is just like a waltz jump). I sure hope this made more sense than the Petkevich description, but if not, let me know and I'll try again, LOL!

[Sessy]

Now *I'm* confused and I CAN do the jump... What does he mean do a 3-turn at the end of the back inside edge! Aren't you taking off from the back inside edge?! And where's the waltz in there, I've been doing this jump for 6 months and I didn't notice any waltzes there. I do think it's a little similar to my axel attempts but not at all to my waltz jump!

[SkatingOnClouds]

Ah another skatefan controversy. I have not seen it, but I have heard the ISU has videos of famous skaters doing things you are not supposed to do -and none other than Brian Boitano doing a two footed take off on the his triple salchow. Goebel's famous quad salchow was often naysayed for that take off. And then there were those that claimed if you look close enough EVERYONE does it.

j

I don't do it, but then I'm only on singles. I'm just wondering whether I should try to do it, whether it might make this darn jump easier. I can do them without any problems, it's just that I can't get the timing right, and I wonder whether sweeping the free foot forward on the ice helps with finding that take off moment. I can imagine it would help a lot on momentum and rotation in doubles and above.

[peanutskates]

sunjoy you may have explained my problem! when I practice the sal for the second time, after reading books etc it was actually worse than when I was just shown it and tried to guess my way around...

also, thanks for your prep tips! I will try the mohawk-> edges on thursday. You're a CCW skater, right? (so I need to reverse your instructions)

[Sessy]

By the way everybody jumping the opposite way might wanna look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5NE8_0v6Bs&mode=related&search=

[peanutskates]

well what can I say, the girl who is jumping CW looks like me. i.e. falling on my butt a LOT.

however, I wish I were that good at a biellman spin. or any spin for that matter...

[sunjoy]

As for the arms, keep your left arm in front of you at 11:00 and your right arm to the side at 3:00 from the 3-turn entrance to the 3-turn exit, keeping the shoulders completely still the whole time. As you reach the end of the 3-turn exit edge, deeply bend your left ankle and knee, bring your free leg to 2:00 and bring the right arm to 1:00 so that your hips and shoulders are squared with each other. Now spring up off the toepick and bring your right leg through, leading with the inside of the right thigh,!I think I tend to check the 3 slightly, but "keeping the shoulders still" [with respect to the axis of the hips I assume], may furncionally be the same thing as "keeping a virtually straight print" on the exit of the 3, prior to bending the knee? I do try to do that.

Bringing the leg to 2:00, and then later bringing "it through" confuses me slightly. When I was doing the jump naturally without over-thinking it, it felt like my free leg *was* at around 2:00, almost "dangling" there. Later I've been trying to drive through from behind to in front, without that dangling feeling. I take it you're saying to go back to the dangling version, but to forcefully drive the knee through forward to get a bigger jump?

Now *I'm* confused and I CAN do the jump... What does he mean do a 3-turn at the end of the back inside edge! Aren't you taking off from the back inside edge?! And where's the waltz in there, I've been doing this jump for 6 months and I didn't notice any waltzes there. I do think it's a little similar to my axel attempts but not at all to my waltz jump!"3-turn" is probably the wrong word. On a back 3, you rock to the back of the blade, and obviously nothing like that happens with the sal. What he means, I think, is that your BI edge curves very sharply before takeoff, to the point that if you didn't leave the ice, you'd pivot around on or near your toe-pick -- and that's exactly what happens if I have to abort the jump for some reason.

I also think that when he says "waltz takeoff", he means "waltz/axel takeoff": a forward-facing takeoff from the toe-pick. As opposed to a back-facing takeoff from the edge of the blade, which is what I *thought* a sal was, untill I actually tried it. If you notice an axel-ish movement, that's probly what he's referring to.

[teresa]

Sessy,

The 3 turn in the salchow is the first part of the jump. The first part of the jump is supposed to occur on the ice. It's very controlled and then you spring up and out. On a double you would spring up, out and then pull in for the rotation.

teresa

[Sessy]

out? How do you spring out? 8O

(I'm sure the language barrier is messing with my head somewhere here, also we've always learned you can do a salchow either from a 3 turn or mohawk...?)

[Sessy]

"3-turn" is probably the wrong word. On a back 3, you rock to the back of the blade, and obviously nothing like that happens with the sal.

Are you saying you take off from the back of the blade on the salchow? I've always taken off from the front?

[SynchroSk8r114]

Anyone notice on the uTube vids that most, but not all, of the skaters had a pretty significant bend at the waist right before takeoff?
Lyle

Yes! And as a coach, I think this is one of the biggest issues with skaters: lack of core body strength. :frus: A stronger core will prevent skaters from breaking at the waist, which limits the amount of height a skater can get on his/her jumps since such a position limits the flow of the free leg's knee. Some of this bending at the waist may also be attributed to a lack of knee bend in the skating leg. This might explain the whipping/scooping of the free leg because when a skater's body is bent in such a position, there's no way for the knee to go up; it must simply swing around.

[Mrs Redboots]

Are you saying you take off from the back of the blade on the salchow? I've always taken off from the front?
Which all beginners do. But technically, the jump should leave the ice from a back inside edge - most of us do the first 1/2 rotation (or more, in my case!) on the ice, but that's actually as big a fault as doing a toe 3-jump instead of a proper toe loop (which should also take off backwards, and guess what, mine doesn't. Nor, I may say, does Husband's most of the time, but his Salchow does - he even got a 0 GOE on it last time he competed it, which is brilliant at our level).

[Sessy]

No I meant from the back of the blade, not a back edge. That's not the same thing, or is it?

Am I taking off forwards? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuBqeLb0-84 On the salchow I mean, I know I am on the toeloop. It feels like I take off backward.

Ugh this thread is messing with my head. What I mean is, don't you always get up on the toepick for an edge jump? I mean how can you jump off the backside of your blade? You'd need to push off with the heel, you can't jump that way? Or can you ?

[russiet]

You take off from the front of the blade. The tracing from the take-off foot will usually show a pick mark.

When I was first trying Sals I stayed on the middle-to-back of the blade. I did lots of nice LBI 3-turns that way.

You have to roll to the front of the blade.

I still do half-baked sals.

[teresa]

language barrier =-) Jump out like in a waltz jump. You take off from an outside edge, kinda off the big toe. Clear as rain huh?

teresa

[doubletoe]

I think I tend to check the 3 slightly, but "keeping the shoulders still" [with respect to the axis of the hips I assume], may furncionally be the same thing as "keeping a virtually straight print" on the exit of the 3, prior to bending the knee? I do try to do that.

Bringing the leg to 2:00, and then later bringing "it through" confuses me slightly. When I was doing the jump naturally without over-thinking it, it felt like my free leg *was* at around 2:00, almost "dangling" there. Later I've been trying to drive through from behind to in front, without that dangling feeling. I take it you're saying to go back to the dangling version, but to forcefully drive the knee through forward to get a bigger jump?

I just meant that it will mess you up if you keep your free leg back until takeoff (like a flip jump) instead of bringing it to the side of your takeoff leg just as you're about to jump. You get a nice little curl/torque on the takeoff edge if you square your shoulders and hips (hence, free leg to the side of takeoff leg) before leaving the ice.

[vesperholly]

No I meant from the back of the blade, not a back edge. That's not the same thing, or is it?

Am I taking off forwards? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuBqeLb0-84 On the salchow I mean, I know I am on the toeloop. It feels like I take off backward.

Ugh this thread is messing with my head. What I mean is, don't you always get up on the toepick for an edge jump? I mean how can you jump off the backside of your blade? You'd need to push off with the heel, you can't jump that way? Or can you ?
You don't take off from the back of your blade, I think you misunderstood MrsRedboots. Don't think about taking off from the toe pick. A good jump should have the toe pick leave the ice last, but that's just a by-product of rocking forward and pointing the foot to get maximum push into the jump.

Watching your videos, you're really going around and making a deep, curly 3-turn on both jumps. Try to flatten it out more, especially on the toe loop. It's good to have deep edges on 3-turns, but in the context of jumping it's not helpful.

For example, look where you push off for the RFI edge into the toe loop. You're parallel to the short end of the arena and the blue line on the ice. But you're pulling the turn around too much, and you end up going more than 180 degrees - you're almost facing the end of the arena, that's a 270 degree turn! You're actually pulling your left foot too far behind you, and you end up with your left shoulder open. It really helps me to practice toe loops on a line to keep them straight.

On the salchow, check your free leg straight back after the turn. You're bringing it far too high and out to the side. It should be behind you like you're going to do a flip. Don't lift it up, keep it lower.

I think these jumps look pretty solid, but you definitely have the ability to make them much stronger and awesome. Your knee bend is good and you get good lift. Just check!! :)

[Sessy]

ok I think I unbedazzled my mind again. :lol: