Disgruntled Ballet teacher RE: Sarah Hughes

[radioactive]

I got my Ballet magazine in the mail today - it's called Dance Magazine and there is a letter to the editor as follows:

"My name is Roberta Senn and I own the Great Neck School of Dance, which I founded in 1981. I have a fine school and faculty:...blahblah....
I personally taught Sarah Hughes, whom you named in your "25 to Watch", from time to time since she was 3 until she was 14. She took private lessons with me twice a week at my school for 11 years. I also taught her sister Emily for eight years. Both of them appeared many times in our annual performances. When Sarah was 5 I taught her a series of stretches that she practiced every morning before her skating session for many years. I am sure some coaching sessions with Diane Cartier were helpful to her, but it doesn't compare to my eleven years of work with Sarah. In the myraid of articles that have been written about her, I have never once been mentioned. It is high time that the ballet teachers behind the famous skaters are recognized for their contributions"
- Roberta Senn, Director Great Neck School of Dance
Artistic Director, American Ballet Russe

OK lady you are CRAZIIIIII. And to think I use to skate with Sarah for 2 years at UD and she's never mentioned me once either:lol: I mean I was the only one that was nice to her and I taught her a biellman, she could have at least said something about me in the "myraid" of articles.:P

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by radioactive
"It is high time that the ballet teachers behind the famous skaters are recognized for their contributions"
Debi Thomas recognized the fact that she worked with Mikhail Barishnykov, limited as it was, during the year leading up to the Olympics. It seemed almost like a marketing strategy.

John Curry & Toller Cranston regularly recognized the dancers & choreographers from the dance world with whom they worked or collaborated. Both of them of course, were much more accomplished in the artistry & style dept than recent skaters like Sarah.

IMHO if she worked with Sarah twice a week for 11 years, it's not necessarily something to brag about when there could still be many improvements made in posture & presentation.

I can't tell from the letter if this person is upset with Sarah or the journalist for not recognizing the dance connection, but it's certainly not true that dance teachers are never recognized.

radioactive, do you have the original article & what did it say or did they have other skaters listed? I am kind of surprised Sarah would be the skater of example for Dance magazine.

[Lark]

This article reminds me of an interview I saw a couple years ago with Britney Spears' *DENTIST*!
He had a huge Poster on his wall of her. While he never wanted credit for her success, and he did take the interview with a lot of humor, it was the first thing I thought of when I read this article! LOL :P

[haribobo]

LOL! So what, is this lady afraid to confront Sarah herself or something? I can just imagine the conversation... "Hey Sarah, way to bite the hand that um, taught you ballet!" I guess there's no such thing as teaching for the skate of passing on an art form, or even just making a living. Why doesn't she just say-- Sarah, how about a piece of the pie! She probably thinks she deserves a percentage of Sarah's earnings, too!

I understand her wanting to be recognized, but some people really have no tact!

P.S. PML at radioactive's comments!!! :lol:

[radioactive]

Sorry I don't have the original article - it was January 2002, page 54.

[Mazurka Girl]

Thanks. I will look it up next time I go to the library. I guess they included Sarah because she attained Olympic status, but I always think of groups like ITNY, Next Ice Age, or current eligibles like Derrick Delmore when I think of the ones who have crossed over into formal areas of dance.

[RobinA]

Although I'm not sure I'd brag if I were Sarah's ballet teacher for all those years, what with the posture problem, I do kinda agree with the general idea of what this woman is saying. You hear about the coach, the coaches skaters go to for special help, the costume designer and the choregrapher, but never the ballet teacher. Ballet is a huge part of what we see a skater doing out there (or should be, unfortunately it isn't always. Maybe they do deserve some inclusion in the "credits." Especially if a skater has taken for years from one person. On the other hand, the ballet teachers of some skaters are probably glad to be unnamed.

[nits]

Is this an actual interview? Wow. Sarah, if you're reading, please thank your ex-teacher after your victory at Skate America. (and possibly Worlds) ;)

[alfongsucks]

Debi Thomas recognized the fact that she worked with Mikhail Barishnykov, limited as it was, during the year leading up to the Olympics. It seemed almost like a marketing strategy.


Debi actually spent one whole hour with Mikhail working with Debi..........it showed..............in that one hour that they "talked" it sent the whole format for Debi's performance......... it was not the chorreographer, the coaches or anything ...........it was that one hour with Mikhail................that made the difference. :roll:

[Lark]

Originally posted by nits
Is this an actual interview? Wow. Sarah, if you're reading, please thank your ex-teacher after your victory at Skate America. (and possibly Worlds) ;) Oh my goodness! I don't know what it was, nits, but this post of yours struck my funny bone or something awrful hard. I snorted around the living room for 2 full minutes! LOLOLOLOLOL :D

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by alfongsucks
Debi actually spent one whole hour with Mikhail working with Debi.......
I don't know how many "hours" it was because I was very young at the time. But I've seen the tapes & read the articles & it was definitely presented to show Debi had developed & accentuated her style through working with Baryshnikov. The gist of the stories was that Debi, formerly lacking in artistic presentation, had made so many improvements in her style after working with an expert that she would now be a stylist as well as a technical skater.

I don't really care if it was 1 hour or 20 hours or twice a week for 11 years. My reason for using it as an example was to point out it is not true that this group of professionals is never recognized. Perhaps this person in Sarah's case has personal problems about her lack of recognition for other reasons & is not looking at the whole picture.

(Edited to correct typos :oops: )

[NorthernLite]

I have a vague memory of seeing this woman on a news report about the parade in Sarah's hometown. She came across then as someone who was trying to grab her 15 Minutes. And I seem to recall others laughing about that on the Net.

She may have a point. But it seems insecure and self-serving to write a letter about *yourself.* (She should have had someone else send a letter praising her. :lol: )

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by NorthernLite
(She should have had someone else send a letter praising her. :lol: )
LOL. That definitely would have been a better approach!

[speedy]

I can't believe the magazine would print a letter that ridiculous. Get a grip lady...Sarah's Mom birthed her and raised her but I don't see her raising heck about not getting thanks and pub every time Sarah won something...sheesh. Sounds like the woman has issues for sure, maybe there's a good reason Sarah never talks about her LOL.

[Ellyn]

Who is Diane Crozier? Someone who was acknowledged in the Dance Magazine "25 to Watch" Senn is responding to for having given Hughes ballet coaching? It sounds as if Senn is objecting to being overlooked in favor of this Crozier who worked with Hughes for less time.

[Lois]

see below

[Lois]

Originally posted by alfongsucks
Debi actually spent one whole hour with Mikhail working with Debi..........it showed..............in that one hour that they "talked" it sent the whole format for Debi's performance......... it was not the chorreographer, the coaches or anything ...........it was that one hour with Mikhail................that made the difference. :roll:

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl
I don't know how many "hours" it was because I was very young at the time. But I've seen the tapes & read the articles & it was definitely presented to show Debi had developed & accentuated her style through working with Baryshnikov. The gist of the stories was that Debi, formerly lacking in artistic presentation, had made so many improvements in her style after working with an expert that she would now be a stylist as well as a technical skater.

I don't really care if it was 1 hour or 20 hours or twice a week for 11 years. My reason for using it as an example was to point out it is not true that this group of professionals is never recognized. Perhaps this person in Sarah's case has personal problems about her lack of recognition for other reasons & is not looking at the whole picture.


alfongsucks is absolutely correct to :roll: at this stupid piece of PR that Debi's agents, IMG, who also represent Baryshnikov, arranged for Debi. Debi's 1988 Carmen program was originally choreographed by Olympic champion and well known skating choreographer Robin Cousins (I saw some of the work Robin was doing on the program with Debi in the summer of 1987, and that took a lot more than an hour), not that what appeared in Calgary was necessarily what Robin had in mind, but that was typical of the way Debi did things/didn't follow through on choreography over the years. IMG decided that a mere hour or so with fellow client Baryshnikov (I've heard it was almost no time) would make a great PR stunt, and they did get a lot of ink for it, successfully trying to leave the impression that Carmen was a Baryshnikov program and completely omitting Robin Cousins from the choreography and style story. Given what Debi actually ended up skating, that may be just as well, through no fault of Robin's, but I thought that it was a very tacky and insulting way to treat the program's true original choreographer, and to me the Debi/Carmen/Baryshnikov/Cousins story is actually a great example of lack of public recognition for the people who do the *real* work on the programs.

Lois

[Mazurka Girl]

I don't disagree with you. Brian Orser has had similar problems with skaters not following through on his choreography.

However I thought this topic was specifically about dance professionals being recognized for their work with skaters. I originally stated that it even appeared Debi did it as a marketing strategy, which seems to be in agreement with your comments, so I am not sure why the two of you seem to be taking issue with my remarks in particular. :?: :?:

[Oreo]

If I remember correctly, Baryshnikov referred Debi to another well-known male ballet dancer for advice, and this guy worked with her before the Olympics.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

All this really shows is that some people can take ballet and it won't "take"; then there are some who have barely any classes but catch on to the important aspects of ballet that cross over to skating...g

[Rachel]

I think you can see the ballet training, but to me, she always looks like one of those people who took ballet a long time ago and has the basic idea without any of the refinements.

Personally, I can take the rounded shoulders and the lack of a full stretch. It would be nice if she pointed her toe, especially in those spirals. But what really sets my teeth on edge are those wrists! Argh! Didn't anyone ever teach her that wrists should curve softly, not angle at 45 degrees? Argh! Every time I see her strike a pose with those bent wrists I want to grab my ballet teacher's baton and give her a poke.

[Scott]

You know, this woman did make a lot of moneyif Sarah actual was coached by her for eleven years. She was certainly paid to do this work, she obviously didn't volunteer! You have a job, you get paid for it! Done deal. Stop the #####ing. Of course if she didn't pay the bills that something else.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Rachel

Every time I see her strike a pose with those bent wrists I want to grab my ballet teacher's baton and give her a poke. You and me both! Except I have to poke her for the rounded shoulders and bent leg as well. ;)

[loveskating]

Wonder why Sarah never mentioned that she took ballet for 11 years?

I hope the reason is not this fluff that Sarah is so "balanced" or "just" a typical American girl. I've been close enough to elite skaters to know that there is no such thing as a balanced life for an elite skater..."A HIGHLY FOCUSED LIFE" is the real deal, and far more interesting than trying to pass her off as some normal kid around the block.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Rachel - I didn't mean you can't see any of it in general, what bugs me is the things pointed out above, I'm actually surprised because it doesn't seem to have "taken" much more. I always assumed after that many years that most people could give a credible imitation of a "real" ballet dancer :?

Must admit - I am very bothered by those lacks in her performance - she does have good turnout though as is shown in that spectacular layback woo woo :D ...g

[Rachel]

I hear ya, Gabi, but I think those are all related to just not pushing herself to the limit. She has good turnout, like you said, and good extension, and the basics are all there, but it's like she's going through the motions without really meaning it. People are used to seeing ballet dancers who dance with feeling and put eveything they have into interpreting the music, really pushing their bodies to express their emotions . Sarah always looks like she's just doing about 80% dance-wise without really pushing herself to the edge, like she has the idea and everything, but just doesn't quite see the point of going all out.

I think a lot of that is that she's just concentrating on her skating at the expense of all else. I think she's naturally a bit round-shouldered and there's not a lot that can be done that hasn't. I don't think she's a natural dancer, either, and I don't she has learned to fake it yet, which probably just comes from focusing on jumps at the expense of getting all the details down.

That said, I think Sarah is much more of a jazz dancer type than a ballerina type anyway, and I think she skates with more expression to non-classical music. I'd like to see her kind of go off in that direction a little more; I think it would negate some of those flaws a bit and give her a better overall look.

But those wrists MUST be changed!

[bleu]

Speaking of ballet, I remember a sport commentator saying that "figure skating is all about fake ballet ..."

May be there is some truth in this.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

That's a good point Rachel - about not following through for concentrating on the other aspects. I also agree that she's not a natural dancer, which takes a lot out of it for me; but like you said maybe she'll learn to fake it, many have and while it's still apparant to those of us who really want that dance fix, it would work for getting the marks.

Re the shoulders, do you remember the Russian gymnast Bougenskia (sp), she had that same problem, but managed to be extremely artistic (not nec. presentation 8) ) anyway...g

[loveskating]

I don't think figure skating is about "fake ballet". Its just that the body in motion does not look so good if parts of the body are stiff and not relaxed or if the line of the body is not so good.

There is FORM to any sport, one learns form going for a shot under the basket, on a free throw, etc. etc. Even as a guard, I spent many hours working on all kinds of form as a basketball player in high school -- down to how to hold the ball for different kinds of passes -- I once had to run a total of 60 punishment laps in one afternoon for very bad form in throwing the ball -- EVERY time I made the mistake, whether the pas was successful or not, coach made me run 5 laps! Well, we were district champs that year, LOL!

But in basketball, the form is a means to the result -- its not marked in and of itself, but in skating, the form is marked since the presentation mark includes things like carriage.

However, it seems that figure skating has derived a few things from ballet...the stag jump, the spiral, the "attitude", and certainly the Bielman Spin all seem derived from ballet.

[AxelAnnie22]

In my never to be humble opinion..... :lol: coupled with 30 years of ballet, there are two ballet components (aside from stretch, flexibility, extension, etc.) that make a skater not just good, but breathtaking.

1. Flow of movement such that you don't see where one movement ends, and the next begins.

2. Initiation of movement from the core of the body, and extendion of the energy of the movement out through the limbs.

Look at Angela, Yuka Sato, and Michelle as the most brilliant examples of Number One. As Dick Button says, Angela is like "liquid gold" on the ice, and she is. (Katia G., too). There is no posing, no jerkiness, no movement that is not "finished".

The best examples of No. 2 are Sasha, Angela, AP. These three are not trying to do ballet in figure skates. They do, however move as dancers. Watch Angela, and you will see that her arm movements do not begin at the shoulder and end at the wrist. Her arms begin at the sternum, and end six inches past her fingertips!. There is dramatic muscle tension in that arm, yet there is no effort that you could detect. It is hard to be sure there is even bone. Look at Sasha's legs. They begin at the center of her body, behind the navel, and extend past her toes.

Those two factors (plus, obviously, some mastery of the elements) make these skaters particularly brilliant and breathtaking to watch.

NOTE: I did not try to make a complete or difinitive list. I only chose the skaters that, IMNTBHO, best exemplify the distinction I was making.

[Artistic Skaters]

Real mentors don't need to whine to the public for validation via editorial letters.

[loveskating]

For me, what is far more interesting is why Sarah would never mention that she has 11 years of ballet lessons under her belt.

I don't recall this ever being mentioned by any commentator or by Sarah herself, to the contrary, I vaguely recall Peggy commentating early in the 2002 season and seeming to imply that Sarah was a "natural" like Peggy had been, had no dance traning. In any case, so many posters have claimed that this is so about Sarah, but it seems not to be so!!!

Hmmmm.

[Badams]

I really don't get why some people seem to jump at the chance to tear Sarah apart. Nobody's favorite is a perfect skater. I think i'll wait until the season begins to see what improvements the Olympic Champion has made before i start to gripe about her. :roll:

[Mazurka Girl]

Maybe it's not one of her favorite activities. She is under no obligation to mention it.

I do wonder why a lot of skaters always think everything has to be learned in private lessons though. Ballet classes are just as, if not more, effective than private lessons. There is a lot to learn & see from others during a class that is very helpful when making corrections. That's why even the most advanced dancers still take group classes.

[Ellyn]

I do wonder why a lot of skaters always think everything has to be learned in private lessons though. Ballet classes are just as, if not more, effective than private lessons.

Maybe the classes were all scheduled at times of the day she needed to use for ice time?

Which reminds me, when I first started skating on freestyle sessions at age 11 or 12, I was taking from a coach who had been a ballet dancer and only taught freestyle, not figures. So during the patch session, I used to have a private ballet lesson in the back room as my warmup. Later I switched to a different coach and started doing patch.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

True we don't know why - but I do think MazurkaG has a great point in that an awful lot is learned by looking at others.

When one is a dancing :D teenager everyone is learning the moves from watching each other. A lot is picked up from being in a group...g

[edgey]

The concerns of this primadonna ballet teacher remind me that there's an awful lot of really BAAAAD ballet instruction in this country.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

:lol: Edgy I agree - and I think I'll still respect myself in the morning...g

[yogurtslinger]

Re: Barysh: It seems so cheesy... and arrogant to do something like that. I mean, Debbie may be a fine skater, but with dancing skills like that-- what was she thinking calling on the great Barysh?? That's almost like an insult. There are lots of fine amateur dancers, etc. who are at a much higher level of refinement who could never hope to get an "hour with Barysh", but Debbie is a "star" so she gets to those kinds of things. Tacky, tacky, tacky. It's like Tara getting the choreographer for Genie in the Bottle to do her on ice version program... (well, okay, not quite like that ;) ).

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by lrngsk8-gabi
Rachel - I didn't mean you can't see any of it in general, what bugs me is the things pointed out above, I'm actually surprised because it doesn't seem to have "taken" much more. I always assumed after that many years that most people could give a credible imitation of a "real" ballet dancer :?

Must admit - I am very bothered by those lacks in her performance - she does have good turnout though as is shown in that spectacular layback woo woo :D ...g I wonder why the TWO "P"'s don't mention it everytime she skates. They always talk about Jenny Kirk's ballet training. I have never heard them mention Sarah's. ODD

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by lrngsk8-gabi
That's a good point Rachel -

Re the shoulders, do you remember the Russian gymnast Bougenskia (sp), she had that same problem, but managed to be extremely artistic (not nec. presentation 8) ) anyway...g I used to "slump" and round my shoulders. I got over it - by simply watching my college roommate who was tall (as I am) and walked with such pride. Just needs a little attention. And, sure, it is hard to incorporate new things, while you thinking about that triple whatever. But it is like all sport, it is akward as you are leaning it, then it just becomes incorporated - or not LOL!

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Yes, they do always mention it with Jenny K. and seem to feel it shows. I don't, I find Jenny's movement very awkward/gawky/whatever also, certainly not what you would see in a talented 16 year old ballerina, but she does have good posture:lol: ...g

[KathySkates]

Radioactive, you are so funny! I too used to skate with Sarah for a few years before she moved to Hackensack.
I also took dance, on and off for nearly 30 years. Stretching is great but let's face it, how many stretches are there? If this lady has some special "secret stretches", she can make a fortune! Why doesn't she have a book or a video? LOL. Did she give Sarah and Emily ballet lessons for FREE? I doubt it. She was PAID for doing her JOB.
I am a teacher and we always joke " And I taught him Math!!!" when we hear of a former student becoming an astronaut or best-selling author. I work very hard to help my students but don't feel the need to be publicly thanked for it. Their success and happiness is reward enough.
Anyway, any special techniques I may have for teaching - oh no! I thank Professor 'Soandso' who taught me Methods of Teaching Math and my friend Gail who showed me that great tip to use while teaching kids how to subtract fractions with unlike denominators and regrouping...

As for constantly trotting out the snide remarks about Sarah's posture -YAWN!
Our creator gave us the body we got. I look at some skaters like Tim G (and some other young man whose name escapes me) and I think "Short neck and not the best posture" They don't stand that way on purpose! That is how God made them! All the skaters try to make the best of the talents they have. (LOL, Sasha Cohen probably couldn't slouch if she tried.)
Timmy G may never have the posture of John Curry but he has worked and improved. In addition, there are so many wonderful things about his skating it seems wasteful to gripe about less than stellar posture.
I am so tired of posters (usually not skaters themselves) discussing Sarah's skating in such a way that one would think that she should be too embarrassed to show herself at a rink.
There is just no pleasing some people!

[Shi]

I have absolutely no ballet training - which i'm regretting right now - but i found this thread really intersting. regardless of what that whatever ballet teacher said, it is intersting to see how different skaters mixing dancing and skating. are there some main methods? i always wanted to know more about off-ice training of the skaters... how much of it is dancing?

[NorthernLite]

Look at the feet, look at the skates -- Sarah has great edges. Last time I saw Sasha, she still wasn't at that level. But fortunately for her, lots of judges (and ballet fans) aren't looking at the edge/stroking quality. (That's probably the reason Dick B. and some judges seem to ignore the fact Sasha has as egregious a flutz as Sarah -- they're never looking at her skates.)

[loveskating]

Since carriage is one of the differentiating factors in the RULES as to the presentation mark, its more than valid to raise these issues, just as valid as noting that a skater flutzes.

I'm not sure how the wrists fit in, however, LOL! I know that being fluid and flexible are included in the list of differentiating factors as to presentation...which is ok by me, since there HAS to be some way for judges to differentiate between skaters who do the same elements! Any stiffness up against skaters like Sasha, Kwan and Angela would likely be noted as to those aspects.

It IS odd that the commentators always mention Jenny's ballet training and have never, to my knowledge, mentioned Sarah's??? To the contrary, I distinctly recall Peggy claiming that Sarah was a "natural"????

Very odd. Yet another strange thing in the "fluff" aspect.

[loveskating]

Originally posted by NorthernLite
Look at the feet, look at the skates -- Sarah has great edges. Last time I saw Sasha, she still wasn't at that level. But fortunately for her, lots of judges (and ballet fans) aren't looking at the edge/stroking quality. (That's probably the reason Dick B. and some judges seem to ignore the fact Sasha has as egregious a flutz as Sarah -- they're never looking at her skates.)

Sasha only very slightly flutzes, at the very last second...much like Michelle Kwan in 1998/99. Sarah's flutz is extremely bad, from start to finish, as is Jenny Kirk's. Both Michelle and Irina flutzed similarly to Sasha last season depending on the competition...Michelle NEVER does anything more than to achieve a takeoff from the flat on her "lutz", and Irina sometimes does the same and sometimes takes off properly. For a real lutz, see A.P. McDonaugh, Viktoria Volchkova, Maria Butereskaya.

As for edges, Sarah's are not "great" as in Pasha Grishuk, Yuka Sato, Ilia Kulik, Katia Gordeeva and Sergei Grinkov, Sasha Abt, Barezhnaya & Sik, nor are they even close to Irina Slutskaya's edges, nor have we seen Sarah do the kinds of things on her edges that Kwan has demonstrated time and again, particulary in exhibitions.

Are Sarah's edges better than Sasha's? I don't think so myself...Sarah can't get any milage out of the shift on the backward crossover while Sasha's is as good and as musical as even Kulik's, and often Sarah misses getting her blade into the frigging ICE on the backward crossover...she is better on forward strokes.

As for Sasha, she was 4th at the Olympics with a fall on her LUTZ combination...which is always a very costly combination to make a mistake on for ANY skater -- so I doubt if the judges consider her "edges" in ANY WAY lacking.

Sarah won because she didn't make a major mistake (she flutzed and underrotated numerous jumps) and landed TWO difficult 3/3s, with a loop, and the judges forgive underotations on the loop in a combination because NONE of the ladies have fully rotated the loop in combination, and because her spins and spiral sequence was first rate, not because her edges are so great. If that were the case, Irina would have beat her hands down.

I totally object to the claim that Sarah Hughes has such great edges. They are ok, but not nearly up to the standard set by truly great skaters like those mentioned above.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by loveskating


I'm not sure how the wrists fit in, however, LOL! I know that being fluid and flexible are included in the list of differentiating factors as to presentation...which is ok by me, since there HAS to be some way for judges to differentiate between skaters who do the same elements! Hi Loveskating - the bent wrist fits into the same place the bent leg does. It detracts from the fluidity, and "finish" of the move or pose.

[AxelAnnie22]

[i]
..Sarah can't get any milage out of the shift on the backward crossover while Sasha's is as good and as musical as even Kulik's, and often Sarah misses getting her blade into the frigging ICE on the backward crossover...she is better on forward strokes.

I agree about her backward crossovers. I think her upper body movement in her backward crossovers is an attempt to get more speed and efficiency from the use of her edges. (Doesn't work - "pumping" never does). I'll betcha her axel is so much better than her lutz or flip, in part, because her forward crossovers are so much better! What do you think?

[i]
I disagree with the claim that Sarah Hughes has such great edges. They are ok, but not nearly up to the standard set by truly great skaters like those mentioned above.

It amazes me when people claim that Sarah has great edges. I just don't see it. To my eye, there is a definite lack of control in those edges......control as demonstrated by Michelle, Angela, Irina, Katia.

[Ellyn]

Sarah won because she didn't make a major mistake . . . not because her edges are so great. If that were the case, Irina would have beat her hands down.

Hmm, you think that's the reason Irina *did* almost beat her?

I'll betcha her axel is so much better than her lutz or flip, in part, because her forward crossovers are so much better! What do you think?

I don't see the connection. Forward crossovers don't really have anything to do with axels.

Also, when I think of "edges" I don't really think primarily of crossovers, although they do occur on edges of course. I think more about spirals and other held edges, threes, choctaws, and other turns with sustained edges going in and coming out. And Sarah does use quite a lot of thosewith good variety and control.

It amazes me when people claim that Sarah has great edges. I just don't see it. To my eye, there is a definite lack of control in those edges......control as demonstrated by Michelle, Angela, Irina, Katia.

I would agree that those 4 ladies are better than Sarah in that area. But I think Sarah is a lot closer to that level than Sasha is.

Not that any of this has anything to do with ballet.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by Shi
i always wanted to know more about off-ice training of the skaters... how much of it is dancing?
After training in both ballet & skating for a number of years, my experience is that upper body movements & exercises from ballet are the most helpful to skating, along with the stretching exercises. Even so, I prefer the complete ballet training compared to the "ballet for skater" modified classes that are offered, because the other thing that goes along with the whole ballet package is the discipline & total body awareness developed from dance. The "ballet for skaters" stuff is often a 6 week class series added by the rink here & there that does not reinforce long term corrections.

[AxelAnnie22]

Well said.

Another form of off ice training which is excellent (ask Sasha and Tim) is Pilates. Pilates adds strength, flexibility, and stretch without bulk, while concentrating on body awareness and the core muscles (the abs.)

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Yessss!! Pilates is excellent.

Another form of exercise we tend to forget is plain old weight training - did wonders for Kristi Yama., and is great for injury prevention when done correctly.

None of these are mutually exclusive

How a person is "naturally" put together is what it is; some just do more with what's "natural" than others. Sometimes it's their choice, sometimes it's much more complicated. From the point of view of someone watching, I may be impressed by how some are able to overcome disadvantages and I may like their skating better if they can improve or learn to work with them a la Tim Goebel.

Whether or not something is "natural" is irrelevant as to whether we find it appealing. Bad posture or body alignment will always have an effect on how much some of us (like me) like to watch the skater.

As to the Ballet instructor - I'd hide ...g8O

[loveskating]

Hi Ellyn:

I am far from fathoming the judges at SLC except for the men's competiion, :cry: but IMHO Irina has the best edging of any of the current ladies.

As for Sasha's and Sarah's relative strengths as to edges, element for element, Sasha IMHO is better than Sarah except for the 3 sal/3 loop and the 3 toe loop/3 loop...and the laybacks are about equal (Sasha varies hers more)...and Sasha's front and side catch spins, her sprial and Russian split define those elements at their very best, IMHO...and its a pretty neat trick to do the Russian split (at that quality) out of footwork, with no backward or forward crossovers to set it up -- so if edging is more than just backward and forward crossovers, if edging is contained in the elements, then I'd have to give it to Sasha on the eldges vs. Sarah as well.

But I'd put it that both Sarah and Sasha have wonderful edging, but not in the "great" league just yet when it comes to edges. I don't see any real difference between them as to edging...althought of course, EVERY skater looks different on the ice.

Even on the 2 axel, Sarah has a great runout, but her overall technique on the 2 axel from entry to landing is not as good or correct or "pure" as Sasha's and Sasha gets more height...and covers as much ice relative to body size. IMHO, Sasha's 2 axel is the best by all differentiating standards of the U. S. top 5, but Irina's and others internationally get more height and cover more ice.

[Triple Axl Rose]

Wow! This discussion has blown my mind! If I'm not careful, I may actually learn something about skating here.
I enjoy the way Sarah moves and looks on the ice. Her long lines are much more stirring to me than what the petite skaters can manage. I guess my aesthetic demands are fairly simple. Some might say, shallow.
All I ask from a skater is that he or she grabs my attention through charisma both on and off the ice, and, for God's sake, don't fall.
Ah, simplicity.

[loveskating]

Hello Triple axl. Rose:

Your POV is likely that of most people...and just fine. The only problem is that sometimes, its more complicated. For instance, in 1999 at Nationals, Michelle Kwan did a 3/3 toe loop and all the other jumps, but fell on her SECOND lutz in the long program....Naomi Nari Nam had a great skate presentation wise, and Naomi has great edges and incredible spins, including a great Bielman...but she did not do a lutz at all in her LP, not even one, while Kwan landed a 3 lutz/2 toe loop.

Kwan actually won hands down by the rules, completely deserved to win, even with a real splat on her second lutz.

A fall matters when the skaters are close as to the level of difficulty...otherwise, it might not matter at all. If the skater does a jump in combination, that entitles them to repeat the jump a second time and get extra credit in the LP. In that case, often, a fall hardly matters depending on what they did otherwise, and what their closest competitor did.

Someone does a quad, and falls on their 3 loop, another skater skates clean, but has no quad...likely the one with the quad will win, all other things being equal because the quad is worth more than a 3 loop.

IMHO, the rules are fair in that regard, because difficulty counts...you can't lower the standards of skating to "not falling" or everyone would do the simplest things, and not risk anything and the sport would cease to advance, IMHO.

[Triple Axl Rose]

I was mostly alluding to the falling (choking) that occurred during the ladies' long program at the Olympics. Don't get me wrong, I was thrilled by it--for Sarah's sake. I admire her uncanny resolve.
I'm a huge advocate of difficult jumps. I admire the incredible athleticism they require. Maybe that's another reason I'm pro-Hughes.
When you don't have the knowledge to pick a performance apart, you can just sit back and have a good time. Nevertheless, I am interested in learning more about figure skating, and this looks like a good place to learn.

[Artistic Skaters]

This is way off topic...how about starting a new topic for everyone who wants to discuss edges, jumps, etc of specific skaters?

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Yikes ArtisticS - :twisted: when you go off topic, you really go for it 8) - I heartily second this idea.

Maybe at the end of every skaters performance the screen (at home, for casual viewers ;) ) should do a rundown like they do at the movies of every single warm body involved in the "production"...g

[Artistic Skaters]

LOL. I'm just disappointed because I wanted to read more about whining mentors. Or at least ballet.

[twiz]

Srah Hughes should get a lawyer and sue that ballet teacher to get her money back.She did her a real injustice!:roll:

[loveskating]

Well, I agree...why bring up Sasha Cohen, and her edges, in a thread about Sarah Hughes having 11 years of ballet training?

Nevertheless, some of us are fans of Sasha, and feel we have a right to answer (in a nice way) when such claims are made about Sasha's edges...which are just fine.

[Mazurka Girl]

I'd rather discuss ballet too.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Meeeee too! I don't think we get nearly enough conversation regarding the ballet/dance training of skaters...g

[Mazurka Girl]

Pointe work. Not good at all for cross training for skating.

[adrianchew]

Dance training can be useful if the skill is actually learned by the student. The flexibility work is a big plus for ladies skaters, but moreso, learning about body movement, and expression... its pretty easy to spot the skaters with dance training and those without.

When the whole body is expressive, you usually have a skater with dance training... when what you see is mostly footwork on the skates, and the rest of the body cannot relate, you can tell the skater could use work in other areas. ;)

Its kind of a simplistic approach - but if you watch enough skaters (not just the top few in the world), its pretty obvious.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Help me out here.

An extreme example would be the ballerina who also ice skates (or vice versa, if you wish). What is her name??? Katherine Healy????, blonde, small, you know the one.

You CAN see it, that's why I'd love to know just how much training and what kind some of the ones who say they've had it actually did.

I think you can see strong dance training in just the way a person walks on the street and I admit that for me the dance part is what floats my canoe

Mazurka - :lol: well, there was all that tittering around after Oksana Baiul :idea: maybe it helps with the footwork :? ...g

[Mazurka Girl]

Katherine Healy trained to a very advanced level in ballet & competed in elite ballet competitions. However, she never reached an elite skating level, competitively speaking. If you ask me, it's the pointe work!! (Well OK, she also chose ballet in the end too) :D

There is no comparison between a dancer/skater with carriage like hers vs an average skater with limited or no dance training.

[Mayra]

Originally posted by twiz
Srah Hughes should get a lawyer and sue that ballet teacher to get her money back.She did her a real injustice!:roll:

I disagree. Comparing Sarah from '99 and beyond, there was a MAJOR improvement overall in the artistic side of her presentation. Her posture improved a heck of a lot and while she is still no ballerina, she has never claimed to be either. The improvements she has made has no doubt been a result of hard work by her entire team, including the ballet teacher. As for Sarah not thanking the ballet teacher, she has rarely singled out anyone besides Robin and her family. In fact in her ESPY's speech she thanked those who helped her and said something along the lines of "you know who you are". I guess the ballet teacher felt she needed a little more recognition than that. :?

[coco]

This is a great thread - chock full of info!!!

Since no else picked up on the last poster who mentioned this, IIRC Debi *did* spend lots of time w/a danseur (did I use that term correctly?) that Barishnikov referred her to - I want to say George Balanchine, but I don't trust my memory. I think it was someone from the ABT.

I think that letter to the editor is hilarious - poor woman, she sounds so upset - I shouldn't laugh but it's funny.

Watching campbell's I found myself wondering if Sarah truly didn't have some kind of unnatural curvatures in her scapulas because it seems like such a sharp angle from about 4 inches below her shoulder to the top of the shoulder. I wonder if she could straighten that up if she tried.


Anyway, on the subject of who's had ballet and for how long, does anyone else remember the quotes from Mr. Nicks about how Sasha had never had formal ballet training? I found it preposterous at the time given her..well... everything, but maybe I heard/read it wrong. I suppose one can achieve a lot w/just pilates, but sasha has such a balletic style, I can't imagine she's never had some serious ballet training.

[loveskating]

If I recall (something that seems to fail with age), Nicks said she had ballet training not as a ballerina, but more like any kid would take ballet lessons...he didn't quantify at the time, but one got the impression of 4 or 5 years, and in any case, Sasha wasn't like Katherine Healy, who was constantly torn between ballet and skating...and finally chose ballet and became a prima ballerina in France. Sasha was committed to skating.

[Rachel]

Katherine Healy chose ballet because she was a much better dancer than skater, and still is. Use Adrian's example of watching the whole body vs. the feet and reverse it, and you will see that Katherine Healy chose wisely. Her spiral is a perfect example of how position isn't everything. Gorgeous position, beautiful back, wooooooobbbbbbllllllyyy edge, slow as a snail. Sarah may have ugly shoulders, but she can skate rings around Katherine Healy.

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Good Heavens Rachel 8O - I should have made my point better:oops: .

I was just using Healy as an EXTREME example of how the ballet training shows - I do realize that she's not a great skater by any stretch (sorry:oops: )

It's a personal preference of mine to be able to see either dance training or at least have the person have natural great movement to the music. Flexibility is fun but not really what I'm talking about - the carriage is more of why I used Healy as an extreme example.

Maybe we could settle on Caryn Kadavy as an example of ballet influence on skating :lol: ...g

[Anita18]

I don't know about Sarah...sometimes I do think that her shoulders are naturally rounded, but I still want to push them down for her when she skates, LOL! The hyperextended arms she has are also a ballet no-no, I think. Well, what do I know - I'm only taking a Ballet I class in college right now. You're supposed to hold your arms from your shoulders (mostly from the lower back, actually), not your elbows like Sarah does.

Sasha has a balletic feel, but I notice that she does a few things that don't quite mesh either. (At Campbell's, I cringed when I saw her constrict her lower back in her ina bauer. 8O In ballet, you're supposed to lengthen the back as you bend, not scrunch it up. No wonder she had lower back problems..8O ) I think Michelle is the most balletic, but not in the traditional sense. It feels like she took the fundamentals of ballet and turned it into her own style which meshes beautifully with skating.

I've only been taking the beginning ballet class for 8 weeks now, and I'm already finding that my posture is better, LOL. Something should have rubbed off after 11 years, really...

Anita

[lrngsk8-gabi]

Anita - innit just the best exercise!!

I agree with you about the natural physical structure - it's limiting...g

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by Rachel
Sarah may have ugly shoulders, but she can skate rings around Katherine Healy.
I didn't realize it was a contest between them considering they both ended up focusing on different things. But if the issue is blades on the ice, there are any number of skaters with both excellent carriage & line who are much stronger than either of them in this area too. One is not exclusive of the other.

[yogurtslinger]

I don't know about that... look at Elena Bechke, not exactly the most balletic body, but she moved so well and with such a sense of dance.

[loveskating]

As to Katherine Healy, I wouldn't put it that Sarah can skate circles around her...rather, I'd say that Katherine Healy's presentation was really top notch, but that her technical skills were seriously lacking, particularly as to jumps and spins...I didn't notice any wobble on Healy's spiral, but with spectacular extention, stretch out and position like that, who the heck was looking at the blades?

Only a very few top skaters have ever achieved that kind of presentation on the spiral (Bobek, Sasha Cohen and Katherine Healy) so who gives a flying fig if there is a slight wobble?

Sure, the judges have to take the quality of the edge into account on the technical side as to the spiral, but they also have to take the presentation aspects into account...so which aspect equals "skating circles around"? Both are part of skating, are they not?

However, I'd like to note in general that as to a "wobble", in fact, sometimes a "wobble" is actually the first part of accelleration from WITHIN the spiral, so when you see what you think is a wobble, see if the spiral goes any faster from within itself before you claim there is a wobble. I mean, any kid learning a spiral knows that when you hit a snag in the ice, you think you are going to go down, but instead, most of the time, you just go faster.

[Rachel]

loveskating....

Katherine Healy's spiral wobbles throughout. It wobbles because she has crappy edges and skates so slowly that she can hardly maintain momentum.

When Katherine Healy was competing, a lot of people thought she was robbed because she always looked so pretty out there. Unfortunately for her, the judges DO look at the blades and the blades count for a lot more than graceful arms and excessive amplitude.

Skaters weren't judged on presentation in her day, but if she were to compete with Sarah today, I would expect Sarah to beat her handily on presentation as well. The presentation criteria is:

Harmonious composition of the program as a whole and its conformity with the music chosen
Variation of speed
Utilization of the ice surface
Easy movement and sureness in time to the music
Carriage and style
Originality
Expression of the character of the music

The problem Katherine Healy would have is that her variation of speed and utilization of ice surface would put her so far down in the scoring that she would get low presentation scores regardless of her other qualities. Her movement has never been easy and sure, either, as she always skates very, very cautiously. Sarah, OTOH, may not have the carriage and musicality of a Katherine Healy, but she is better than most skaters at all of the qualities listed and far better at some than Katherine Healy, which would keep her way up there.

So, yes, Sarah could skate rings around Katherine Healy no matter how you cut it.

[AxelAnnie22]

OK - when did Katherine Healy skate? I want to see if I can find a video of her. I have to check this out.

[Mazurka Girl]

Katherine Healy is the subject of the book "A Very Young Skater". She was a young girl in the '70s whose coaches included Glyn Watts, John Curry, Rob McBrien among others. She did not train in skating to an elite level like Sarah & comes from a different generation than Sarah Hughes. I don't know what the purpose is of all the comparisons to Sarah. It's like the futile argument about Brian Orser's skating based on today's marks & standards. What was vs what is. So much for the ballet discussion. :roll:

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
OK - when did Katherine Healy skate? I want to see if I can find a video of her. I have to check this out.
If you are looking for a video of her skating during her adult years, I believe she performed in Evening of Championship Skating one year. Again, she did a completely different level of ballet than Sarah, & Sarah does a completely different level of skating than she did.

[Rachel]

What would we do without you here to tell us all how to post, and what, and where, Mazurka Girl?

Hmm, Katherine Healy. She was also a movie star once, let us not forget. If you want to see to see her as a ballerina sprite, you can watch the rather blecherous Six Weeks with Dudley Moore and Mary Tyler Moore.

You might be able to get a tape of her from Louis http://home.earthlink.net/~louis17/tapes/curry.html

She also appeared in last year's American Open and you can order a tape of that here http://amopen.com/Home/ or you can see photos of her Russian Splits, spiral, Charlotte and "artistic expression" (it's a pun, not a slam) here http://www.skatingfans.com/AmOpen/ladies.htm

She did an Evening of Champions in 1989 and she appeared in the Vail Festical on Ice in 2000, which was broadcast on TBS and might be on tape somewhere.

If you want to see her dance, she was the prima ballerina with the Vienna Opera Ballet, I believe, and there might be some tape of that somewhere.

[loveskating]

Hello Rachel:

I'm aware of the broad criteria on the presentation mark...but as with technical marks, you can break it down further...and each element is also presented, in and of itself, while it is being done.

For instance, we are told that as to the spiral, all that is technically required by the ISU is that the extended leg be above the waist. So if all the skaters do a spiral sequence with the extended leg above the waist then how are the judges to differentiate?

Security of the edge, an inside or outside edge spiral on a curve, the bigger the better, are technical criteria further broken down...but it is OBVIOUS to anyone that the presentation of the spiral itself, as an element, is quite a bit different among the competitors, as well -- and has to do with extension of the free leg, amplitude and full stretchout.

Where would you place these things, then, if not in presentation of the element, remembering Paul Wylie's demonstration during one of those ABC "lessons" of the way a spreadeagle can be badly or well PRESENTED -- and the spreadeagle is not even a required element (spiral sequence is required), but an "in between"?

If there is no presentation of the element itself, then there is no way you can claim that Michelle Kwan's change of edge spiral beats Irina's far more technically difficult spiral sequence...yet it apparently does, and I agree...because of the presentation side.

Katherine Healy's spiral was extremely beautiful...and I'm pretty sure she got huge presentation marks on it from the judges when she skated as a pro...and personally speaking, I was absolutely not looking at her blades so I really couldn't say if she wobbled or not...stipulating that I've seen EVERYONE wobble a bit on their spirals.

P.S. Technical differentiations that might not be listed in the rules would be the Charlotte spiral: Kwan's hands free, on the flat, forward; Sasha doing it backwards with incredible extension, on the flat, and Naomi Nari Nam doing the Charlotte on a CURVE, on an edge (deadly scary, IMHO). If I were a judge, I'm afraid I'd have to give that one to Naomi on the tech mark, then Sasha (backwards and extension beats free hands and forward) then Kwan (can't recall anyone else among the top skaters doing a Charlotte spiral in their sequence).

Skating is SO relative.

[Rachel]

Skating certainly is relative.

For example, I would think that going forward in a Charlotte would be a heck of a lot harder than going backward because the chances that you would fall on your head would be so much greater. It's always harder to maintain your balance if you are traveling in the direction of your momentum. In a forward Charlotte, for example, the skater's upper body, free leg and one arm are all thrusting forward as she moves. I find it very impressive that she can maintain balance; it would be easy to do a somersault. If the direction of thrust is opposing your direction of movement, it helps balance you. If you want a quick test of that, get on a balance beam type of thing. When you start to fall off, how do you correct yourself? By trying to move in the opposite direction of the fall. So I would give Michelle more credit than Sasha for the Charlotte if her Charlotte was moving forward and Sasha's backward.

Who told you that Kwan's spiral beats Slutskaya's on the judges' cards? I personally have never seen such a breakdown; do you have a link anywhere that shows this? I know Kwan's makes most audiences happier, but that's hardly the same thing. I think that Irina's would beat Michelle's in terms of judging criteria, because of the more difficult edge change and also because Irina's usually covers more ice. If Michelle's beat Irina's, I would think it was because Michelle's spiral is so secure and sure. I think the two spirals are about equal in quality and it all comes down to which one is performed best on any given day. If we're going to quote ABC as an authority, remember that Uncle Dickie himself told us all that the most important element of a spiral was steadiness of edge. What the judges look for in a spiral and what you are looking for in a spiral are two different things. The most gorgeous position in the world done slowly and unsteadily will never beat an adequate position done with speed that covers a lot of ice; Exhibit A would have to be Maria Butyrskaya, who obviously didn't waste a lot of time learning to lift her leg over her head and still beat a lot of girls who did on the presentation mark. It's not the body position that makes the difference between the elements in the marks or the results of competitions would be very different.

I don't know if Katherine Healy's spiral gets huge points when she competes or not (as she is still competing as far as I know; I believe she was also at the last American Open) Certainly her programs overall don't, but I have never seen an element by element breakdown. I don't think one exists, as the judges hardly have time to be that precise, but feel free to convince me otherwise.

Looking beautiful is important, but it is hardly the most important thing or even one of the most important things. Aside from the obvious benefits to carriage, ballet will also help a skater move better, which would undoubtedly help in terms of sureness and ease of movement. But the most beautiful positions in the world won't help you if your blade isn't doing it on the ice. If you see a skater who looks beautiful but gets low presentation scores, all you have to do to understand why is stop looking at the body and start looking at the blades.

[Artistic Skaters]

Originally posted by Rachel
What would we do without you here to tell us all how to post, and what, and where, Mazurka Girl?
What would we do without you here to make it a personal issue with someone when they disagree with you, Rachel?

Just for the record, I was enjoying the original discussion too. So what if me or anyone else wants to say so?

[adrianchew]

Can we please refrain from making personal attacks at other posters? If you have a problem, please inform the moderators. Thanks. ~adrianchew~

[Rachel]

Just for the record, I was enjoying the original discussion too. So what if me or anyone else wants to say so?

Then you simply return to the original topic in your own post and skip over what's in between. It happens all the time. Although technically speaking, this thread had already strayed way off the original topic, anyway, because people wanted to pursue another avenue of discussion. If loveskating and I want to pursue yet another direction, can we not do so, particularly since the thread had essentially died anyway?

[Artistic Skaters]

If you read again carefully, you will probably note I wasn't asking for advice. I was remarking on an inappropriate comment & putting it in perspective based on what had been written by the person to whom it was directed.

[Rachel]

The same advice would apply to her as well, wouldn't it?

Sometimes there's more to a situation that is immediately apparent.

[adrianchew]

Ok - that's enough - let's end this discussion before it gets any uglier. ~adrianchew~