Learning 3-Turns

[Sk8Dreamer]

Any idea which is more common, learning FO 3-Turns prerotated or not? Just curious. I'm especially interested in how adults are taught, being one myself. <g>

[Isk8NYC]

I teach all beginners to pre-rotate the arms first. I figure it's hard enough trying to keep that free leg back, why add more complications by making them move their arms at the same time?

Once they can actually turn and glide, I reteach them with the "big girl arms." LOL

[jskater49]

I teach all beginners to pre-rotate the arms first. I figure it's hard enough trying to keep that free leg back, why add more complications by making them move their arms at the same time?

Once they can actually turn and glide, I reteach them with the "big girl arms." LOL

NOOOO Not the "big girl arms!" I still want to go into 3 turns pre-rotated, but that does not work for jump entries, power threes, dance threes...

j

[Sk8Dreamer]

I teach all beginners to pre-rotate the arms first. I figure it's hard enough trying to keep that free leg back, why add more complications by making them move their arms at the same time?

NOOOO Not the "big girl arms!" I still want to go into 3 turns pre-rotated, but that does not work for jump entries, power threes, dance threes...
j

I was taught arms pre-rotated, free leg tucked in, not back. Probably an attempt to focus on all the weight over the skating foot and to avoid the arms confusion. Now I encountered the "big girl arms" and the tucked-in foot. I'm getting thoroughly confused. But at least I'm managing to turn. :D

[Derek]

Yes, I will admit, not understanding what is meant by big girls arms ...

[phoenix]

Lol, "big girl arms" means not to rotate the shoulders into the turn, rather to use the skating knee and blade, & hip/torso control to make the turn happen. It takes more finesse and control that the average beginner has.

I also teach pre-rotated turns to beginners, and change them over somewhere along the way...depends on the skater. I don't have a good answer on when to switch.

[Sessy]

Any idea which is more common, learning FO 3-Turns prerotated or not? Just curious. I'm especially interested in how adults are taught, being one myself. <g>

I was taught head-shoulders-body-hips go first, foot follows.

[Mrs Redboots]

I was doing continuous outside 3s in my lesson, and my coach made me pre-rotate, as I wasn't checking properly. Normally, when I'm turning with a partner (as I was earlier) you can't do that.

[taijiya]

I learned them with the "big girl arms" from the start--and now that I'm finally actually able to do them, I can't imagine trying to do them pre-rotated (but think I'll have to try it, just out of curiosity...) :lol:

~~taijiya

[Isk8NYC]

For little kids, I stand them by a dot and have them pretend a tree grew there. They have to 'hold' the tree trunk (prerotating the arms) by their skating hip, go around the trunk (outside edge) and turn the foot without letting go of the tree (check the arms).

For adults, I just tell them to keep their arms checked next to the skating hip. Sometimes, I'll mention what I tell the kids, so they can get a mental picture, but I don't talk to them as if they were kids.

I like the 'big girl arms' line, although the boys I teach aren't really thrilled with that description.
(Have to remember to change the gender.)

I teach the arm rotations once they're gliding through the forward outside 3s. It's much better (and somewhat easier) for them to learn the inside 3s with the arm/shoulder rotation.

[peanutskates]

that is the question.

my coach tells me to lean forward on my skate more (which I do already, any more and that is my toepick)

all the books say "do NOT lean on the toepick"

my coach doesn't REALLY lean on the toepick himself.

I don't glide if I use my toepick...


so what do ya'll think?

[Sessy]

It's actually incorrect technique to get on the toepick as far as I understand, but it does help you to get started. However, you lean onto the toepick at the very last possible moment, when you feel your blade wanting to flip over - that is, when it's already rotated 90 degrees compared to the trajectory you set out on. When you're almost falling off your edge basically.

And keep that free foot tucked in, or your blade won't be wanting to turn over when it's supposed to for this to work well.

[Derek]

Not sure what I think, but I think I know what I do. I learned 3 turns on hockey boots, so had no toe pick to 'assist' with the turn. When I got my figure skates, I was pleased just how much more precise I could make my turns, by letting the toe bite on the cusp. Now I do turns in two different ways, big slow 'loopy' turns, which allow the pick to catch, and faster snappier turns, where I cannot detect any pick action. I was taught that the pick assists when learning, but it shouldn't really be used when the technique is perfected ?

Just as an observation, the pick cannot be used in backward turns, does this imply the same for forward turns?

An interesting question.

[peanutskates]

how about the position of the free leg? in or out?

i was taught by this coach to keep it "in closer"
now he is saying, stretch it out. it is "better"

:?? :?? :??
what do you think?

[Mrs Redboots]

my coach tells me to lean forward on my skate more (which I do already, any more and that is my toepick)
Bend your knees more, and you will find your weight goes on to the ball of your foot, just behind your toe-rake, which is where you want it.

how about the position of the free leg? in or out?

i was taught by this coach to keep it "in closer"
now he is saying, stretch it out. it is "better"

:?? :?? :??
what do you think?For dance, you want to keep it tucked in tightly behind your skating leg. Your free leg should be under control at all times.

I'm not entirely sure why your coach would want you to turn with your free leg extended - perhaps it's a freestyle thing! Might be worth asking him/her why.

[Clare]

I'm not entirely sure why your coach would want you to turn with your free leg extended - perhaps it's a freestyle thing! Might be worth asking him/her why.

I have always had it drummed into me to keep my leg tucked behind which is sometimes where I struggle, as my free leg is just itching to break free...

Clare

[peanutskates]

This coach is Russian, so maybe that is the way they taught him in Russia?

(I am Russian too, so I do not mean this in any offending way, but)

How is it usually taught in Britain? because I would really (obviously) like to learn it the way it's done here in the country I hope to compete in. And I don't really need to know what he was taught in Russia.

I think that I will learn it both ways, so this coach will pass me and so if needed I can go back to what seems to be the more commonly used leg-in procedure. lol

has anyone here been taught skating in Russia? were you told to keep your leg out?

Mrs Redboots - re: skating leg should always be in control. Yes, when I stretch it out it also has to be in control, not like stuck out and waving around. or it having your free leg out always considered sloppy?

[kateskate]

This coach is Russian, so maybe that is the way they taught him in Russia?

(I am Russian too, so I do not mean this in any offending way, but)

How is it usually taught in Britain? because I would really (obviously) like to learn it the way it's done here in the country I hope to compete in. And I don't really need to know what he was taught in Russia.

I think that I will learn it both ways, so this coach will pass me and so if needed I can go back to what seems to be the more commonly used leg-in procedure. lol

has anyone here been taught skating in Russia? were you told to keep your leg out?

Mrs Redboots - re: skating leg should always be in control. Yes, when I stretch it out it also has to be in control, not like stuck out and waving around. or it having your free leg out always considered sloppy?

Are you talking about FI or FO 3 turns?

[dooobedooo]

...has anyone here been taught skating in Russia? were you told to keep your leg out? ...

Firstly there are different styles of doing three turns. You can either do them with the free foot close to the skating foot in a t-position, or alternatively with the leg well extended throughout (this is called an American-3) or alternatively with the leg extended, but bringing it in for the turn. At some point you will learn them all.

I think that for the time being you should listen to your coach. It will all come out in the wash. Once you get good enough to do tests using 3-turns, you will be able to discuss your performance with the judges. You will then find that teensy weensy preferences can vary from region to region, and rink to rink within the same town.

My feeling is that you may have been locking your legs together, and that your coach is encouraging you to keep a slight distance, in order to liberate your knee bend on the skating leg. The knee bend and rise is *infinitely more important* than the position of the free leg. You also need to lift the free hip (or at least *not* drop it) in the turn.

The other thing with basic FO3s, is that your free hip is turned out - and this is easily achievable if you think about bringing the free foot into the turn in a T- position.

From personal observation, it seems that Russian coaches do not teach pre-rotation of 3-turns. They go straight into the "big-girl's" version.

[Sessy]

how about the position of the free leg? in or out?

i was taught by this coach to keep it "in closer"
now he is saying, stretch it out. it is "better"

:?? :?? :??
what do you think?

Are you sure this was both on outside 3-turns, and not keeping it in closer on the inside ones and stretching it out on outside ones?

[luna_skater]

I was taught head-shoulders-body-hips go first, foot follows.

Same. I was taught this theory for every turn. You "reverse" your shoulders to make the turn happen. Your foot will come along.

[frvanilla]

that is the question.

my coach tells me to lean forward on my skate more (which I do already, any more and that is my toepick)

all the books say "do NOT lean on the toepick"

my coach doesn't REALLY lean on the toepick himself.

I am sure your coach does not mean the toepick. Once you hit your toepick, you will definitely scratched the ice if you are not yet toppled over. Three turns are clean, crisp turns.

My guess are: probably your body is leaning too far backward or you are not bending and pushing down on the ball of your foot enough.

You should go into your 3-turns with a very bent knee, your body rises and you lift up your heel when you turn, and you push back down on the exiting inside edge.


how about the position of the free leg? in or out?

i was taught by this coach to keep it "in closer"
now he is saying, stretch it out. it is "better"
Both are correct.

As dooobedooo explained, there are different free leg positions for the three turns.

I was taught to pre-rotate and tuck my free leg in. You get more control that way and you would not be swinging your free leg around. In dance, definitely tuck it in, you do not want to kick your partner.

Open 3s are harder in the sense that you have to keep your free leg extended behind and in control. I enter most of my jumps with the free leg extended throughout.

I would not consider one way "sloppier" than another as long as the turn is in control.


Are you sure this was both on outside 3-turns, and not keeping it in closer on the inside ones and stretching it out on outside ones?
I extend my free leg on inside 3-turns as well (ex. toe loop and loop entrance).

[dooobedooo]

my coach tells me to lean forward on my skate more (which I do already, any more and that is my toepick)?

I think he's trying to get you to sink down and bend your knees more. It's called "getting down into the ice", and will give you more edge and speed. Your knees flex forward as your bottom sits a little (without sticking out). This doesn't have anything to do with toepicks.

Ask him to demonstrate your skating "bad" and "improved".

[Sessy]

I prefer the extended 3-turns as well for my jump entrances, but I can't do them for my life in a clockwise direction (not if I wanna know where I'm going).
But you can't jump off an uncontrolled 3-turn.

[Mrs Redboots]

I have always had it drummed into me to keep my leg tucked behind which is sometimes where I struggle, as my free leg is just itching to break free...

ClareYour coach is a total figures man, though, and I suspect it would physically hurt him to see an extended free leg in a 3-turn other than where the choreography called for it!

Actually at our rink (Clare & I train at the same place, although with different teachers), 3-turns are always taught with the foot tucked in, certainly at first. And I see that in the new level 3 Skating Moves, the forward 3s are done with the free foot tucked into the heel, and the back 3s with it held tidily in front of the skating foot.

[dooobedooo]

Your coach is a total figures man, though, and I suspect it would physically hurt him to see an extended free leg in a 3-turn other than where the choreography called for it!

Actually at our rink (Clare & I train at the same place, although with different teachers), 3-turns are always taught with the foot tucked in, certainly at first. ...

I forgot to put that in my earlier post. Position of tucked in foot for three turns varies in figures, dance and free skating. For figures, the free knee is slightly bent, and therefore the free foot is held higher relative to the skating ankle, and also, there is slightly less hip/foot turnout. For ice dance, the free leg is straighter, and the hip slightly more turned out, so that there is a definite T-position of instep to ankle. For free skating, the free leg is not held quite so close to the skating foot. This probably has something to do with the relative speed and flow of the three disciplines.

.... philosophical comment follows .....
So why so many "right" ways of doing something? Well, it's a bit like religion really - you just have to BELIEVE in it (and your guru!!!) for it to work - and years later, you can analyse it again, and discard the bits that don't work for YOU ... There are many different routes to the same goal ... But you have to just take it as "gospel" to start with. :lol:

[Sk8Dreamer]

Having now tried working on them both ways, I think I prefer the prerotated way of learning 3-turns. It seems to me that NOT prerotating the arms just adds one more thing to keep track of while you're learning a difficult move--at least to me it's been really difficult! I'm starting to be able to do them (not well, but at least actually turn and then even glide a bit backward) both ways, but unless I'm doing consecutive alternating 3-turns (not sure that's what they're actually called...), if I don't prerotate I still have to remind myself to turn my arms into the circle or else I get all discombobulated. I also like having to keep my free foot tucked in. It's hard for me--the darned free foot just wants to swing free, ready to drop to the ice at a moment's notice!--but I think keeping it tucked helps me focus my balance all on one axis above the turn. When the free foot is (accidentally) off to the side, it pulls my balance off.