3-turn frustrations!

[airyfairy76]

Hi all - I have been struggling with learning FO 3-turns for the last few weeks, and have a real mental block. So with all you wonderful, experienced skaters here, I thought I would ask for help and advice :) I am on Skate UK Level 6, and have actually passed everything else on the level, bar the 3-turns, so it is actually stopping me moving up as well.

I do the first "lobe" of the 3-turn, turn my shoulders and ribs into the circle, take my arms across my body and look towards the direction that I want to turn. I turn and then . . . . . that's it, I just stop. I don't move backward and it seems I can't get my weight centred as I just fall towards my free foot. It is like beating my head against a brick wall :frus: :frus:

So, if any of you lovely people have any tips or hints, they would seriously be gratefully received. I am going to end up stamping my foot through the ice soon in a strop!!

[Derek]

I shared your frustration, so sympathise. For me, 3 turns represented the most challenging single element in the whole LTS programme, and took several weeks before I could manage them with any degree of consistency (4 weeks for my first successful one). If you are falling forwards on the exit, perhaps your weight is too much over your toes, and you are 'locking' the movement? Remember it is only your skating foot which follows the 3 turn tracing, your body should remain on the general circle.

I tried to explain the principle to someone on the rink at the weekend, using an articulated lorry as a model. The lorry travels smoothly in a straight line (or a large circle). The lorry then turns sharply right (for RFO3). The cab turns, but the trailer doesn't want to follow and flips around, continuing on its orginal course, only now travelling backwards.

If this doesn't help, then please ignore it, I try and use novel perceptions to explain things.

Don't give up though, you are almost there ...

PS: not wonderful and experienced here, just doggedly tenacious because no one has told me I can't do it.

[Isk8NYC]

I do the first "lobe" of the 3-turn, turn my shoulders and ribs into the circle, take my arms across my body and look towards the direction and I want to turn. I turn and then . . . . . that's it, I just stop. I don't move backward and it seems I can't get my weight centred as I just fall towards my free foot.

My guess is that you're not checking your free hip/leg.

Before the turn, they ride the circle (as Derek said) BEHIND your skating leg.
During the turn, they stay locked behind as you turn the lower body.
After the turn, they stay behind (not to the side) and steer you onto the BI edge.

Make sure you bend the skating knee before and after the actual turn.

Tighten your abdominals and glutes (buttocks) after the turn to keep the free hip from opening up and dropping. I think that's making you fall - the hip's open and the free leg's dropping.


Derek - I like the lorry analogy. At first, I thought you were going for a "jack-knifed tractor-trailer" example. LOL

[Mrs Redboots]

But that's normal when you first start doing 3-turns, everybody does them like that to begin with! Suddenly one day you'll find you flow out of them, but don't worry about it. "Dance 3s" are done like that - you turn, and then almost immediately step down. The difference, of course, being that you step down in a controlled fashion, not because you must!

Try to keep your free foot as close as possible to your skating foot, so that when you put it down, you don't wide-step. That will enable you to get a good push on to the back outside edge.

But don't worry about it, it sounds as though you're doing everything right for now.

[Sessy]

practice in socks on the floor turning on the ball of your foot but not actually lifting your heel off the ground for more than less than a half an inch. And also, going into the 3-turn keep the free leg behind but then as you make the turn itself, keep your free foot right next to your skating foot, just not touching the ice, but right next to it.

[airyfairy76]

keep your free foot right next to your skating foot, just not touching the ice, but right next to it.

Do you mean like standing with my feet together, but with the free foot just raised up an inch or so? So my feet are parallel?


Thank you to everyone who has replied so far, there is some really helpful things there.

I wonder if part of the problem is that I turn things out from the hips too much (years of ballet training). I know it is very useful for some things, but I am learning that when skating, you sometimes have to be able to "turn in" as well!


But that's normal when you first start doing 3-turns, everybody does them like that to begin with!

So people keep telling me! Just my frustrations I suppose - I have been doing these for about a month, and still don't feel much closer :lol:

[Derek]

Derek - I like the lorry analogy. At first, I thought you were going for a "jack-knifed tractor-trailer" example. LOL

Many years ago, I worked as an engineer for a company making anti-skid braking systems for lorries. One day, the test driver took me onto the skid pan with a tractor-trailer set and did a perfect 3 turn at about 50 mph. Did I wet my pants or what !

[Sessy]

Do you mean like standing with my feet together, but with the free foot just raised up an inch or so? So my feet are parallel?


Yeah. If you go swinging your leg around or to the sides in a 3-turn, you end up with an uncontrolled edge and balance, keeping the feet togehter looks tighter and feels more controlled and at our club they're actually teaching the 3-turns that way so it can't be technically very wrong I'm thinking

Also, try not to lean too much into the 3-turn. The edge shouldn't come from bringing your balance point far left of the left foot skate (that you're gliding on), it comes from sort of pushing into the ice I think... I'm not sure. At least my balance point is like right over my skating foot and right over the turn, I believe... I should try this out on ice with this in mind to be sure but that'll be friday.

[Derek]

Do you mean like standing with my feet together, but with the free foot just raised up an inch or so? So my feet are parallel?


My free foot instep is adjacent to my skating heel, at about 45 degrees, being the way I was shown. That is a natural position for me so feels comfortable, but I guess there are many variations on that posture.

[airyfairy76]

My free foot instep is adjacent to my skating heel, at about 45 degrees, being the way I was shown. That is a natural position for me so feels comfortable, but I guess there are many variations on that posture.

There does seem to be lots of variations, but I am getting the general idea is that the free foot is kept veeeerry close to the skating foot! I think I have been holding my foot maybe a little too high for hte time being (as in, above the top of my other boot).

By the way, I liked the lorry analogy too! :)

[Derek]

I don't think the height of your free foot is a critical issue, I am guessing that it is normally close to the ice when learning, so poor stability is not alarming. Upon inspection, my foot is about the same height as yours, and from memory, the coaches blades were about in line with the bottom of the skating boot. What is important is that both legs/feet should move as one ...

[Petlover]

One thing to remember is on the forward edge/lobe, bend your skating knee as deeply as possible, for the turn rise up softly (my coach says like a marshmallow in your knee), this will help the turn, and for the back edge bend your knee again. Good luck!

[Team Arthritis]

Many years ago, I worked as an engineer for a company making anti-skid braking systems for lorries. One day, the test driver took me onto the skid pan with a tractor-trailer set and did a perfect 3 turn at about 50 mph. Did I wet my pants or what !
That's how I feel on my LBI-3!:cry:
Lyle

[Team Arthritis]

I've not seen any posts about my particular/ peculiar 3 turn problems: This tool me years to figure out and it still isn't right - when I skate, I have a tendency to cantilever my body. That is, parts are forewards, parts are back, parts to the left, parts to the right. So the whole sum adds up to my weight being over my skating foot but my body is not lined up. If you think about a scratch spin - when you start everything is out to the side and you spin slowly; pull in and you spin fast- why? Well the same problem happens on 3 turns - if your chest is foreward and your rear and free leg are back you will ride very smoothly on the back of the blade and have a very stable glide which helps me with my spirals. But you can't 3 turn there, you must "collect all the pieces" and bring the arms, legs, chest all together and stand tall over your blade. Then the turn is much easier - remember less force to start the turn = less force to stop in the check.

Bottom line - spend some time just gliding on all 8 of your edges with the body lined up nice and tall and hips and shoulders open/ closed/ rotated together/ rotated in opposition. Now head up! This is the prep for the 3 turns and the prep for the rockers and the counters and Brackets and the exits positions as well. THis is suprisingly tough and one of our pros who still skates shows works on just this 15 min every day!
Lyle

[Rusty Blades]

... parts are forewards, parts are back, parts to the left, parts to the right

As I told my first coach ages ago, "Honey, at my age I have WAY too many parts to keep track of them all!" 8O

[LilJen]

Hmm, might be that you're getting onto your toepick at the middle of the 3-turn and that's what stops you. A great overall tip from my coach that's helped me with 3-turns along with everything else is to remember that your free leg steers. Meaning that if your free leg is out to the side or heading in the wrong direction, your skating leg is going to follow.

[airyfairy76]

As I told my first coach ages ago, "Honey, at my age I have WAY too many parts to keep track of them all!" 8O


I don't think this is necessarily age related! Sometimes I feel like my head is going "Feet, knees, hips, arms, shoulders, head, abdominals in, bum tight, knees bent, head up . . . waaaaah!!"

[Sessy]

You also might need just more speed. If you turn insecurely, you'll slow down a lot, it's gotta be quick and sharp or else you'll skid all over the place.

[Clare]

You also might need just more speed. If you turn insecurely, you'll slow down a lot, it's gotta be quick and sharp or else you'll skid all over the place.

Ah, skiddy turns....those would be my FI3s :frus:

Clare

[airyfairy76]

You also might need just more speed. If you turn insecurely, you'll slow down a lot, it's gotta be quick and sharp or else you'll skid all over the place.

I will admit, I do tend to slow right down before attempting the turn.

Maybe I should just throw myself at it and see what happens :lol:

[Team Arthritis]

I will admit, I do tend to slow right down before attempting the turn.

Maybe I should just throw myself at it and see what happens :lol:

Well maybe try No speed - go to the boards and hang on so blade is parallel and body faces boards standing on one foot. Now rise up on sweet spot and do the 3 turn without moving the upper body. Coach tortures me with this "more knee" "Check" "head up" "stand tall" etc etc. After a while I have to move because I've generated enough shavings for snowcones for all.
Lyle

[airyfairy76]

Well maybe try No speed - go to the boards and hang on so blade is parallel and body faces boards standing on one foot. Now rise up on sweet spot and do the 3 turn without moving the upper body.
Lyle

That sounds like a really good idea Lyle - I hadn't really thought of just trying the turning bit at the barrier. I have used the barrier, but still by going into it on an edge, and had found that it just got in the way.

I'm going to try that tonight!! Hopefully that way, I can see what it should feel like turning on the skating foot, while rotating etc.

After a while I have to move because I've generated enough shavings for snowcones for all.
Lyle

Snowcones off the ice? Bleurgh!!!! :)

[jenlyon60]

You need some flow into the turn, but you can also pick up bad habits that may have to be unlearned later, if you learn the turn by just throwing yourself into it.

Remember, for an FO3, you're turning around the outside edge of a circle (the edge of that circle being what your blade is tracing).

It's very easy to drop your free side (i.e. your right side if doing an LFO3 and your left side if doing an RFO3) when you stroke onto the edge for the turn.

Here's a couple exercises that one of my coaches had me do for 3-turns.

1. At the barrier, hold onto the barrier and stand on one foot with that foot parallel to the barrier. Make sure the outside of the foot is closest to the barrier. Then, press your weight forwards on the foot towards the toepick and turn 180 degrees...you can be holding onto the barrier. As you get more comfortable with this, you can glide a bit into the drill, still holding onto the barrier. Don't forget to practice on both feet.

2. Straight-line 2-foot 3-turns. You can do these the length of the ice or the width of the ice. Stroke a bit to have a little speed and flow, then glide on 2 feet. Set up for an FO3 (i.e. right arm/shoulder in front for LFO3 etc). Do the turn. If you feel comfortable with the forward 2-foot turns, you can add in the backwards to front 2-foot turns and make a little sequence. You can also alternate directions (first turn to left, then turn to right, etc.)

3. Curved 2-foot 3-turns. Same as #2, only glide on 2 feet in an arc. Using the edge of a hockey circle or the goalie box circle can help. Or if the ice is empty enough, draw a big half-circle with a magic marker to use.

4. Glide on 2 feet on a curve or arc. Right before you reach the point at which you want to do the turn (that point is generally the top of the arc), lift the other foot (i.e. for turn to left, lift the right foot) as you prepare with shoulders/arms for the turn. Do the turn, then put foot back down and glide with 2 feet for awhile. As you feel more comfortable with the turn, pick up the free foot quicker and hold the entry edge on 1 foot longer.

Hope these help. 3-turns at speed are my biggest bugaboo (witness my signature)

[cassarilda]

Ok, there have been LOTS of good ideas in here, so im going to make mine short and sweet, based on what Ive learnt, as a dance outside 3.

BEND your leading leg as you push off, ensuring your free leg hip is not dropped (this will help to ensure youre on your edge), as you prepare to turn, rotate shoulders, head and GENTLY rise up, bringing your free leg to either a T-position (behind skating foot) or parrallel/next to your skating foot (consciously lifting your free foot toes will help stop the toepicks digging in - or you worrying about it).. as you do this you should feel like you want to turn... if you gently rise onto your rocker (putting pressure on the ball of your foot and gently/slightly shifting weight to this point), and allow it to happen, your hips will just turn naturally, with your foot following with no swing of your shoulders or arms. BEND again as you finish the turn, again to keep you on the edge, and in my way, place free foot next to leading leg on ice, and swap feet, pushing with initial leading leg/foot. To complete a semi circle you should swap feet onto an inside edge.

Also, as a dancer you may find the notion of leading with your hips (rather than your shoulders) a useful concept as well..

A good exercise is doing the above instructions until the point where you feel like you want to turn (rising up), but not.. just get to that point and understand what it feels like..

I hope that helps.. :)

Just keep persisting.. I 'got' my 3 turns in one very frustrating but determined day (about 4hours), and Ive only just starting to perfect them, and it sounds SO lovely when they make no sound.. no scratching, no throwing body around, and they are so EASY.. now to keep practising to get it everytime :lol:

PS. So much for short and sweet :lol:

[dooobedooo]

...I do the first "lobe" of the 3-turn, turn my shoulders and ribs into the circle, take my arms across my body and look towards the direction that I want to turn. I turn and then . . . . . that's it, I just stop. !

I think there is a chance that you are messing up your bodyweight by the action of looking too far round. This will make you drop your free (non-skating) shoulder, which will make you fall out of the turn. I had this problem hugely for a couple of years. DON'T DROP YOUR FREE SHOULDER OR HIP. And don't look too far round - try just looking forward (or slightly round from forward), but feeling your bodyweight on the skating foot, with your shoulders relaxed and even. And feel your hips under you (they mustn't stick out, hip must be over skate)

... For me, 3 turns represented the most challenging single element in the whole LTS programme, and took several weeks before I could manage them with any degree of consistency (4 weeks for my first successful one). ....

I remember in my KTS skate class (as an adult), our collective jaws dropped when one participant managed to do a 3 turn at first attempt. However it took me about 3 months of pushing myself along the barrier, round and round the rink, to get an acceptable LTS test-passing 3 turn. It then took about another 6 months to get a reasonable quality 3 turn without a lot of cross-body tensions, and about 3 years in all to get a dance-quality 3 turn. Then about another 2 years to get dance-quality back-3s.

I think at this stage you need to focus on:
(a) down-up-down knee action (down with knees bent as you approach the turn, up with knees straighter but not locked as you do the turn, sink down again after the turn. Also, be aware of the rocking action of the skate blade. You start with weight on your heels. As you rise, your weight rocks forward on the blade up almost to the toe rake, and then rocks back again to the sole of the foot as you go backwards.
(b) keeping knots out of your body (shoulders must be same height, rib cage and shoulders move as a unit);
(c) getting some edge into the 3 turn.

Three turns are always done on a curve (although sometimes quite a flat one). So find the very small hockey circle (at the middle of the end of the rink) and practise on that. Start with two-footed turns, to get a feeling for down-up-down, and speed coming out of the turn.

If you can't get much speed up, go to the barrrier and push yourself along the barrier. Try this - face the barrier, palms down on top. Then try some two-footed turns, without moving your upper body. You should be able to face the barrier, and do the entire three turn by using hips, knees and down-up-down action (ie. without displacing your upper body).

Once you've got a good feel for two-feet, you can try on one foot, rising up into the T-position for the turn.

[Mrs Redboots]

Right now, I sympathise with anybody learning 3-turns for the first time, as I'm just having my first lessons on back 3-turns, never having really needed them before. But with this eeeeeeeeevil exercise on the new Level 3 skating moves (mind you, if I'd passed my test I'd be working on even more evil exercises, so perhaps it's as well I didn't), which my coach thinks is absolutely perfect for level 3 skaters (and as I'm the only one on his books right now, that means ME!). It's more-or-less the same as the USFSA 3s in the Field exercise, and tests all 8 3-turns.

Right now I have 3 decent 3-turns and 1 half-decent one.

Very deep sigh - BI3s are SCARY! I can do them holding my coach's hands, of course, but only then. And my weight goes all over the place like I don't-know-what.

[jskater49]

Right now, I sympathise with anybody learning 3-turns for the first time, as I'm just having my first lessons on back 3-turns, never having really needed them before. But with this eeeeeeeeevil exercise on the new Level 3 skating moves (mind you, if I'd passed my test I'd be working on even more evil exercises, so perhaps it's as well I didn't), which my coach thinks is absolutely perfect for level 3 skaters (and as I'm the only one on his books right now, that means ME!). It's more-or-less the same as the USFSA 3s in the Field exercise, and tests all 8 3-turns.

Right now I have 3 decent 3-turns and 1 half-decent one.

Very deep sigh - BI3s are SCARY! I can do them holding my coach's hands, of course, but only then. And my weight goes all over the place like I don't-know-what.

Oh my gosh - back 3 turns. Let me tell you my back 3 turns story. I took basic skills back in the old days when it only went up to basic 6 and in basic 5 you had to do outside and inside back 3 turns. I thought that was the most ridiculis thing to have in basic skills. And the club I was in - you couldn't take dance until you passed basics...but when do you have to do a back 3 turn in dance? International level???

I started taking private lessons just so I could pass those darn 3 turns.

Fast forward a few years later I'm taking a Learn to Skate Freestyle class with a bunch of little kids who are out jumping me. Then come the back 3 turns. The old lady can do back 3 turns. "Hey, how do you do those?" they ask the old lady. Hehehe.


I haven't done a back inside 3 since then, but I do outsides once in a blue moon.

j

[airyfairy76]

Thank you so much to everyone who has left me advice :)

I think it really has helped. It was my first lesson back today after a two week break, and I remembered some (not everything, I apologise - but there is so much here!) of your tips.

Mostly, the tight abdominals / free leg and hip up, keeping my free foot close to my skating foot, bending my skating knee more and lots of other things running through my head, including articulated lorries! I was also told not to "spot" my head, which is contrary to years of dancing for me, but to keep my head centred and only move it with my shoulders. This seems to help too.

The turns actually were going pretty well, just not gliding out of them. In fact, I think I managed a microsecond glide out of one! Nobody would have noticed it, but I felt it and know it was there :D

I will just have to keep practicing and practicing and practicing . . . .:lol:

[doubletoe]

To practice getting a nice curve, shoulder check and up-down knee rhythm on your 3-turns, it might help to do 2-footed 3-turns first. Keep your shoulders in the same place and just rotate your hips and feet together, so that your chest faces the inside of the curve you are on from the 3-turn entrance through the exit and there's no swinging around.
As you get comfortable with the deep ankle bend, deeper edges and rising to the ball of the blade for the turn, start to focus more on one foot than the other. Eventually, focus so much on that one foot that you actually lift the other one and keep it at the ankle of your skating foot, extending it behind you only on the exit of the 3-turn. If you are turning CCW, the left foot will be your outside 3-turn foot and your right foot will be your inside 3-turn foot. You'll need both turns in frestyle skating so it's good to practice them together, then seperately.

Also, on a 3-turn, you shouldn't turn your head. When I start doing that, I just tell myself I'm in a neck brace and can only face the same direction as my chest is facing! That is true for the whole 3-turn, from the entrance through the exit.

[airyfairy76]

Also, on a 3-turn, you can't turn your head. When I start doing that, I just tell myself I'm in a neck brace and can only face the same direction as my chest is facing! That is true for the whole 3-turn, from the entrance through the exit.

That's exactly what my coach was telling me today, and it does feel better when I do the neckbrace thing :)

I think I will carry on practicing the two footed 3-turns. I can do this smoothly on one side (turning CCW), not quite so smoothly on the other.

[Sessy]

You know I was taught that in a 3-turn you keep looking in the direction you're travelling. Which means - and I specifically asked to check to be sure because it felt awkward at first - you do turn your head and pretty bigtime too... Are my trainers insane or am I?

(but then everybody says the lutz has a blind jumpoff and I'm actually looking behind me before I take off too lol... maybe because it's so crowded on the ice whenever our club or I skate, that they teach us things differently?)

[doubletoe]

You know I was taught that in a 3-turn you keep looking in the direction you're travelling. Which means - and I specifically asked to check to be sure because it felt awkward at first - you do turn your head and pretty bigtime too... Are my trainers insane or am I?

(but then everybody says the lutz has a blind jumpoff and I'm actually looking behind me before I take off too lol... maybe because it's so crowded on the ice whenever our club or I skate, that they teach us things differently?)

You may rotate your head to face the direction of travel on a back 3-turn, but it's generally not something you do on a forward 3-turn. Take a look at some skating videos on YouTube and you will see that on forward 3-turns, the skater's head is always facing the same direction as the chest and hips. A good example of this is a flip or toeloop entrance. On the 3-turn entrance, the skater is facing the direction of travel, but on the 3-turn exit, the skater's hips, chest and face are all facing away from the direction of travel (they are facing the direction she came from).

[Mrs Redboots]

You know I was taught that in a 3-turn you keep looking in the direction you're travelling. Which means - and I specifically asked to check to be sure because it felt awkward at first - you do turn your head and pretty bigtime too... Are my trainers insane or am I?
I don't think so! We were taught that this was how you checked a 3-turn - you looked in the direction of travel until the last possible moment, and only turned your head to face where you'd been when you would have screwed it off if you'd left it there. Which, in practice, meant that you rotated underneath your neck.

"If you want to spin", said that coach, "your head moves with the rest of you!" (I wish mine did!).

[Isk8NYC]

As a LEARNING EXERCISE, I have students turn their heads before the turn. I use it when a student isn't using their shoulders/arms because it forces them to turn the upper body more before the turn.

Normally, I have the skaters "look where they're going."

but then everybody says the lutz has a blind jumpoff and I'm actually looking behind me before I take off too lol... maybe because it's so crowded on the ice whenever our club or I skate, that they teach us things differently?)It could be the crowd, I know I double-check the lutz takeoff for clearance. When I'm practicing on empty ice or skating in a program, I NEVER look and I don't teach my students to look, either. (During lessons, that's part of my job.)

[dooobedooo]

I just re-read my post, and wanted to make the down-up-down clearer.

For a standard forward outside three turn, when you sink back down after the turn, you do not sink very much - ie. not back down to the level you rose up from. You wait until next back push to sink right back down again.

To get a good backward glide out of the turn, keep your head up, and don't hunch over. The subtle general direction of the bodyweight can be used to progress the turn backwards and onwards. You should "float" backwards, with weight on sole of foot.

[sk8_4fun]

while we're at it, if anyone has any tips for inside threes I'd be very grateful, I can't seem to get the motion correct and it feels so uncontrolled. thanks in advance.

[Mrs Redboots]

while we're at it, if anyone has any tips for inside threes I'd be very grateful, I can't seem to get the motion correct and it feels so uncontrolled. thanks in advance.I find these hard, not having had to learn them when I was in the classes, but in fact, what you do is exactly the same as what you do on an outside 3. So set up for a left forward outside 3, and maybe turn it. Now, with exactly the same set up, strike a right forward inside edge, and do the exact same thing with your upper body.

You might want to practice by doing 2-footed 3-turns and lifting one or other foot up just before you turn! Hmmm, might try that myself..... I'm working my socks off on 3-turns at the moment, and although my FO 3s are fine, and possibly one of my FI 3s, the rest are.... not fine!