Axel(I never thought I'd ever be good enough to even try one)

[xofivebyfive]

So my coach has had me doing axel preps(waltz-backspin, loop-backspin, backspin-loop, etc.) and our lessons lately, since December actually have been really focused on my programs for competitions instead of learning new things. She said that after my comp on the 11th, she will have me try the axel, and maybe start on a double(so exciting since it will be my year anniversary of when I started skating). She told me that I could try an axel on my own free time when I practiced, because she thought that I was perfectly capable of getting the height and rotation(and I learn things really fast since I practice ever day) and I told her that I was worried about bad habits forming. So I think she said to not try too many, and told me up and not around and stuff like that, which I already knew. So. Basically my point is:

1. Do you think it is safer to just wait until she has the time to go through it with me?

2. If you answered no to the above question, what advice do you have for me, in order for me to not kill myself trying this jump.

[Stormy]

IMO, I'd wait. YOur'e totally right to be concerned about getting bad habits, and you won't be able to see what you're doing wrong by trying it yourself. I spent literally YEARS undoing bad habits from an old axel. I'd wait until she has the time to go through it with you. Keep doing the preps, those are really beneficial.

Sounds like you do learn things really fast, learning an axel after a year of skating in a good accomplishment! :)

[WhisperSung]

I'd actually attempt to try it on your own a few times. You'll never get it if you don't practice, obviously. Next lesson, you can show your coach what you've been working on and he/she can correct any bizarre issues you might be having.

Honestly, when I was learning my axel, I did it from a standstill and just did a side-hop and jumped into it. Once I got it that way, I started learning how to do it from a back edge. When I work on my double axel, I start with a right forward outside edge and then switch to my left foot and take off. Either of these forward approaches work well when first learning the jump. Good luck! :)

[WannabeS8r]

Like WhisperSung said, I also think it's good to start learning the Axel from a standstill. That's actually what my coach tells me. It might be also a good idea to use harness, which I personally never tried but I heard it helps. Good luck with your Axel!

[xofivebyfive]

Maybe I'll try it a small amount of times, if I'm brave enough, the day before my next lesson, that way, I wouldn't be getting muscle memory for bad technique, and she could fix it the next day anyway? I got two completely different responses, so.. not sure what to do.

[beachbabe]

doing it from standstill seemed to be more difficult for me but most people say it helps them.

Harness helped alot.

If you are worried about doing it wrong you could just try waltz backspins but kida try and rotate more in the air, then jsut finish it on the ice. I don't think it will make any really bad habits, you'll just progress slower when ur coach is not there to point out each little mistake. Practice makes perfect, and i don't think you'll ever get your axel if you only do it with your coach ever.

I would try a few, but if it really feels off, then wait and ask your coach to look at it.

[Sessy]

I bruised a few ribs trying it on my own.

[kateskate]

I would wait until she does a few with you in your lessons just to make sure you are doing it right. Then practise alone (but make sure she has a look at them every so often to make sure you are still doing them correctly)

It is very hard to undo bad habits!

But that is just my opinion.

[Team Arthritis]

I'd say - borrow a full set of hoc http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/sportlich/b040.gif key gear and then fling youself with abandon!
Lyle

[Sessy]

I'd say - borrow a full set of hoc http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/sportlich/b040.gif key gear and then fling youself with abandon!
Lyle

Oh totally!

But you know my trainer gave me advise that totally works: SPONGES! Just the normal, supersoaky flat housekeeping kind (not the bath sponges) with large holes (they're more firm than the fine-foam ones) and without an extra rough scrubbing layer (you don't wanna scrub your skin off). Just put them in your tights and under a tight shirt and they stay in place - especially around the butt they do - and you barely feel the falls!

[Team Arthritis]

Oh totally!

But you know my trainer gave me advise that totally works: SPONGES! Just the normal, supersoaky flat housekeeping kind (not the bath sponges) with large holes (they're more firm than the fine-foam ones) and without an extra rough scrubbing layer (you don't wanna scrub your skin off). Just put them in your tights and under a tight shirt and they stay in place - especially around the butt they do - and you barely feel the falls!

and we'll have to call you Sponge 5x5 square pants!:D
Lyle

[Sessy]

When I had the sponges in, nobody noticed! Everybody just thought I had a big butt. They laughed their ***** off when I started taking out the sponges, one by one, struggling to get 'em out, hahahhaha! But you know, after continuous pain from a fall on my pelvis for a month, I did not exactly care what everybody else thought. I also have wrist protection and wear it most of the time.

Some people dont dare to jump without it though when they wear it in practice. I dont have that problem, but for some that is reason to practice without protection.

My boyfriend is especially kind. He suggested that if I compete in an artistic skate competition, I should go either as spongebob or michelin man. Other suggestions I heard were a balloon and "Big Black Yo-Momma"

[WhisperSung]

I bruised a few ribs trying it on my own.


Heh. . .what I failed to mention above (so as not to scare the OP) was that the very same day I started landing my axel, my thirteen year old little self couldn't be contained. I wanted to do it again and again and again (because, hey, it's really exciting when your foot connects correctly with the ice, darnit!). I caught my feet by accident on a take-off and cracked a few ribs when I whiplashed into the ground. 3 weeks later, I was back at it anyway. I love me my axel ;)

[Sessy]

Oh, I have no quirms about practicing it either. I believe I wouldn't be able to jump if I was afraid to fall.
I just waited till somebody explained to me how to do it first because frankly it's insane trying to jump it not actually knowing how to (to clarify things, we didn't do prep work for it before I tried it on my own - somehow our club doesn't do prep work for the axel until they start trying the axel - really strange.) And 2 weeks after the incident, I tested, and I did train before that of course... Wasn't too bad, I just took painkillers.
Though I STILL have the bruise for some reason and I fell on it in november... :o

[Team Arthritis]

Heh. . .what I failed to mention above (so as not to scare the OP) was that the very same day I started landing my axel, my thirteen year old little self couldn't be contained.... I caught my feet by accident on a take-off and cracked a few ribs when I whiplashed into the ground. 3 weeks later, I was back at it anyway. I love me my axel ;)

Oh, I have no quirms about practicing it either. I believe I wouldn't be able to jump if I was afraid to fall.
... Wasn't too bad, I just took painkillers.
Though I STILL have the bruise for some reason and I fell on it in november... :o

LOL you guys are CRAZY! Me too I guess but just not brave enough to try what will unbdoubtedly be a SplAxel:bow:
Lyle

[Sessy]

LOL you know I was scared at first of it too, it's a strange feeling to jump from the front to be honest! Then we got a different coach, just for 1 lesson, but she's kind of intimidating. I was more afraid of her than of the axel and the lutz and since then, I just conjure up an image of her whenever I get afraid.
:lol:
And being more relaxed seems to make you fall less often and less hard too.

Also the axel actually isn't so scary once it starts making sense in your head. Cuz at first I figured, "my GOD, WHERE TO am I jumping? I'm just jumping into the air!!! How am I EVER going to get into a backspin position if I swing my leg this far forward and if I swing my leg forward, how am I ever going to revolve enough to land: how am I EVER going to land from this?"
And then at some point I realized that the more you swing that leg, the easyer it is to get into that backspin position and the MORE you turn, not less, thus making it easyer to land, not harder, and then it's far less scary.

Right now I'm just figuring, "patience girl, it took you half a year to go from waltz to lutz and thus add a half a revolution to your jumps: this isn't just a jump, this is another half a revolution, you don't expect it to come in a week do you?"

And also, some of the teachers DO let me try an axel and some don't and I'm very driven to prove to those who DONT let me try it that I AM ready to try it. I mean I know I don't have the height yet to actually land an axel: my left leg's always been weaker than my right leg. But that doesn't mean I can't try.

[xofivebyfive]

Okay well this is a video of my supposed axel in my parent's bedroom, from the end of January, because I haven't gotten a chance to try again since then, since I've had ankle issues, but um, if there's anything that I can fix based on this video, I'd welcome any suggestions because I don't want to die when I go and try it for real on the ice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXmYyq4SuLw

[das_mondlicht]

Great work! The first couples are really nice. Only one thing is your feet should cross like the back spin in the air position(L foot over R). Just don't overdo it when getting tired. Really nice! :bow: :bow: :bow:

[WannabeS8r]

Yeah, what das_mondlicht said: Good rotation but it still seems like you're jumping around a bit because your feet aren't in a backspin position. And do something about those arms!

I think you are pretty capable of doing a correct axel with a bit more practice. Keep at it, Laura! Show 'em, those 8-year-olds! *lol*

Oh, and I suggest you watch an axel video on youtube posted by "cedyna". It demonstrates how your feet and arms should be positioned very well!

[doubletoe]

Your legs don't really have to be tightly crossed in the air, you just need to have the left foot in front of the right shin and have the left hip closed, like a somewhat open backspin position.
I think your biggest issue is going to be what your arms and legs are doing on the transfer from the RBO edge to your takeoff edge. On the floor, you swing your left foot to the front before turning out and stepping onto your takeoff "edge". That is something you need to stop doing because you won't want to do that on the ice. Before you step out for the jump, you want to be on a RBO edge in a typical landing position (you can keep your left big toe on the floor if you're simulating this on the floor), then bring the free foot into the heel of the right foot before stepping out. As you step out, you want your chest to go forward over your takeoff knee while your shoulders and elbows pull back. On takeoff, everything comes through together, just like on a waltz jump.

[Sessy]

then bring the free foot into the heel of the right foot before stepping out.

what does this mean for the English-impaired? :lol:

[das_mondlicht]

Off topic (moderator, please remove my thread if neccessary.)
Yeah, what das_mondlicht said:
Don't you have your constructive phrase but have to translate other's?

[xofivebyfive]

Your legs don't really have to be tightly crossed in the air, you just need to have the left foot in front of the right shin and have the left hip closed, like a somewhat open backspin position.
I think your biggest issue is going to be what your arms and legs are doing on the transfer from the RBO edge to your takeoff edge. On the floor, you swing your left foot to the front before turning out and stepping onto your takeoff "edge". That is something you need to stop doing because you won't want to do that on the ice. Before you step out for the jump, you want to be on a RBO edge in a typical landing position (you can keep your left big toe on the floor if you're simulating this on the floor), then bring the free foot into the heel of the right foot before stepping out. As you step out, you want your chest to go forward over your takeoff knee while your shoulders and elbows pull back. On takeoff, everything comes through together, just like on a waltz jump.

Oh man I have the hardest time with going from the back edge, to the takeoff edge, even on waltz jumps. My coach had me practicing just that for a whole lesson once, and I just could not do it correctly. I think when I do it on the floor, I'm more concerned about rotation and height than the simple things(which I guess are actually extremely important) like arms going back and the edges. Next time I try doing it, I'll try and do what you said. Thank you so much for the advice, because I don't want to be doing it wrong and think that I'm doing it perfectly. :frus: Question, do I have to consciously think, "oh I need to cross my feet" once I go up? And when you say bring the heel to the right foot, do i jump from that spot or do I step a little once I bring it there? *did that make sense?*

*edited to add*
So here is a new video of me jumping today, before all the advice from on here, so don't repeat yourself, lmao. Um yeah. So I just got an MRI and they think I have a stress fracture in the fibula in my right leg. So.. this probably wasn't too healthy.. LOL. http://youtube.com/watch?v=4rV4y22CMR8

[Team Arthritis]

what does this mean for the English-impaired? :lol:
I think I can help a little - these floor axels are extremely well rotated at landing and really fun to watch (NICE JOB 5x5!) but start off overrotated before she leaves the floor. You don't want to be stepping directly foreward with your left arm already rotated to the left before you take off or else you are whipping the jump around. This is good to practice gathering the weight over the landing side but is a bad start for jumping on the ice.

If you think of the jump actually starting from the RBO gliding entry edge then 5x5 steps all the way around 180 degrees before jumping, that's too far for ice skating but nice ballet technique! Instead you want to step on the LFO at about 135 degrees and when you make that step you want to lead with the left shoulder, not with the chest square. (lots of different arm and hand positions are used here)

So after all that introduction - I believe that doubletoe was trying to give instructions for this crucial step - starting off on RBO edge with your left toe on the floor (to keep you balanced while practicing this standing on the floor) bring the left foot straight in to rest on the heel of your Right foot. My coach wants the free foot heel brought all the way to the right foot instep. Now bend straight down and make the step to 135 degrees onto the left foot as doubletoe describes and everything is properly lined up. It is nearly impossible to whip an Axel from this entry. I hope that this was correct and helpful, and 5x5, I hope you can do more of these soon.
Lyle

[xofivebyfive]

I think I can help a little - these floor axels are extremely well rotated at landing and really fun to watch (NICE JOB 5x5!) but start off overrotated before she leaves the floor. You don't want to be stepping directly foreward with your left arm already rotated to the left before you take off or else you are whipping the jump around. This is good to practice gathering the weight over the landing side but is a bad start for jumping on the ice.

If you think of the jump actually starting from the RBO gliding entry edge then 5x5 steps all the way around 180 degrees before jumping, that's too far for ice skating but nice ballet technique! Instead you want to step on the LFO at about 135 degrees and when you make that step you want to lead with the left shoulder, not with the chest square. (lots of different arm and hand positions are used here)

So after all that introduction - I believe that doubletoe was trying to give instructions for this crucial step - starting off on RBO edge with your left toe on the floor (to keep you balanced while practicing this standing on the floor) bring the left foot straight in to rest on the heel of your Right foot. My coach wants the free foot heel brought all the way to the right foot instep. Now bend straight down and make the step to 135 degrees onto the left foot as doubletoe describes and everything is properly lined up. It is nearly impossible to whip an Axel from this entry. I hope that this was correct and helpful, and 5x5, I hope you can do more of these soon.
Lyle
I really appreciate your help! What you're saying sounds correct to me, and I will definitely try to incorporate the actual edges next time and the pre rotation.

[WannabeS8r]

Don't you have your constructive phrase but have to translate other's?

What do you mean by that? I simply meant that I agree with you. Why, am I supposed to use the punctuation in a different way?

*sorry, off topic!* :roll:

[doubletoe]

Oh man I have the hardest time with going from the back edge, to the takeoff edge, even on waltz jumps. My coach had me practicing just that for a whole lesson once, and I just could not do it correctly. I think when I do it on the floor, I'm more concerned about rotation and height than the simple things(which I guess are actually extremely important) like arms going back and the edges. Next time I try doing it, I'll try and do what you said. Thank you so much for the advice, because I don't want to be doing it wrong and think that I'm doing it perfectly. :frus: Question, do I have to consciously think, "oh I need to cross my feet" once I go up? And when you say bring the heel to the right foot, do i jump from that spot or do I step a little once I bring it there? *did that make sense?*
http://youtube.com/watch?v=4rV4y22CMR8

Trust me, the step-out part is the most sensitive part of this jump, and the most difficult part! But if you do it wrong on the ice, it's not the "correctness" of the jump you need to worry about, it's avoiding some bad bruises! You must be balanced perfectly over your hips, with the weight over the right side before you step out. That's one reason you bring the instep of the left foot right to the heel of the right foot before you step out.
As you step out onto the takeoff edge, you need to lead with the left side of your chest so that the right shoulder is a little bit back. Push out so that your chest is over your knee and your weight is on the front of your takeoff foot. Do NOT extend your free leg way behind you; keep it just a little behind you with the knee bent so that your hips stay under you. If you extend the free leg behind you too much on the takeoff edge, you will end up tilting yourself backwards when you leave the ice and bring the free leg through.
When you step out onto the takeoff edge, you must keep your free leg and shoulders completely still so you stay right on the ball of the blade and right over your hips and don't start to pre-rotate the edge. Then roll up straight off the toepick for takeoff so you pull up straight up in the air.
I don't think it works to think of crossing your free leg over your landing leg in the air because crossing it means bringing it around in front of the landing leg, which is a clockwise motion (and you want all of your motion to be counter-clockwise). Instead, you want to turn your right hip INTO the free leg, which is hanging right there where you left it. It's just like a backspin, where you turn into the left leg by turning the right hip in. Then the left leg is automatically in front of you and you just pull it in closer. Also, you don't want to cross at the ankles, you want to have the free knee a little lifted, just like on your backspin. Otherwise, you won't stay over your right hip and you'll also have a hard time unhooking your left foot and checking it out (which is much harder when you have big, heavy skates on!).
And yes, you need to step out wider on the floor, unlike the ice, where you can step closer. The idea is that you need to get your left knee bent and get your chest over your knee before takeoff. That part is easier on the ice, but if you can do it on the floor, it will definitely help.

[xofivebyfive]

Trust me, the step-out part is the most sensitive part of this jump, and the most difficult part! But if you do it wrong on the ice, it's not the "correctness" of the jump you need to worry about, it's avoiding some bad bruises! You must be balanced perfectly over your hips, with the weight over the right side before you step out. That's one reason you bring the instep of the left foot right to the heel of the right foot before you step out.
As you step out onto the takeoff edge, you need to lead with the left side of your chest so that the right shoulder is a little bit back. Push out so that your chest is over your knee and your weight is on the front of your takeoff foot. Do NOT extend your free leg way behind you; keep it just a little behind you with the knee bent so that your hips stay under you. If you extend the free leg behind you too much on the takeoff edge, you will end up tilting yourself backwards when you leave the ice and bring the free leg through.
When you step out onto the takeoff edge, you must keep your free leg and shoulders completely still so you stay right on the ball of the blade and right over your hips and don't start to pre-rotate the edge. Then roll up straight off the toepick for takeoff so you pull up straight up in the air.
I don't think it works to think of crossing your free leg over your landing leg in the air because crossing it means bringing it around in front of the landing leg, which is a clockwise motion (and you want all of your motion to be counter-clockwise). Instead, you want to turn your right hip INTO the free leg, which is hanging right there where you left it. It's just like a backspin, where you turn into the left leg by turning the right hip in. Then the left leg is automatically in front of you and you just pull it in closer. Also, you don't want to cross at the ankles, you want to have the free knee a little lifted, just like on your backspin. Otherwise, you won't stay over your right hip and you'll also have a hard time unhooking your left foot and checking it out (which is much harder when you have big, heavy skates on!).
And yes, you need to step out wider on the floor, unlike the ice, where you can step closer. The idea is that you need to get your left knee bent and get your chest over your knee before takeoff. That part is easier on the ice, but if you can do it on the floor, it will definitely help.
I will definitely remember all of this, and I think it will help now that I know what I should and shouldn't be doing. Before, I was just trying to see if I was able to get the rotation, and I can sort of. Thank you so so much. :bow:

[doubletoe]

I will definitely remember all of this, and I think it will help now that I know what I should and shouldn't be doing. Before, I was just trying to see if I was able to get the rotation, and I can sort of. Thank you so so much. :bow:

You are very, very welcome. If you can avoid some of the "school of hard knocks" learning on this jump, I will be happy to have been a part of it, LOL!

[b viswanathan]

This is incredibly helpful. I should print it out and take it to the rink...

I have been working on a short, slow RBO and then stepping into the LFO of (what will be) the axel. I practice on one of the blue hockey lines to ensure consistency. A shallower curve helps the entry, as does aiming sort of diagonally to the boards - the pattern looks like a flattened sine curve, or a smushy S.

For now, I'm working on getting one consistent rev, with arms pulled in and straight body position. I land facing forward, on the flats of my blades. I've been able to get all the way around only once or twice so far, and then I landed on my toepicks and promptly fell over from surprise.

My biggest problem so far is not suddenly digging into the entry edge just before taking off. Is that pre-rotation? It's not on the pick so much as on the edge, which makes me more prone to lean backward. Maybe I'm doing what doubletoe says not to do - pulling the free leg back too far? I'll try to work on that. Also, does anyone else pike their body a bit (looks awful) in the air? Is that just fear-induced, or what?

As for arms, I raise them in front to a little higher than waist level as I step forward, then pull them back and snap up and together underneath my chest during the jump (like a ski jump, sort of). Anyone else do that?

I'm really trying to go for it, but I hope I'm not alone in feeling it's still kind of scary, especially when it's inconsistent. I need to find some padding that works; haven't yet had any success with sponges et al. You'd think I could redistribute some of my excess weight to the pointy places (hip edges, knees) - but apparently it doesn't work that way.

XO5x5, your floor axels are gorgeous. Thanks for posting the video - my coach said I should practice them and I had no idea how they'd work/look. Yours are terrific - I wish you could come teach me them in person!

[Sessy]

My coach wants the free foot heel brought all the way to the right foot instep. Now bend straight down and make the step to 135 degrees onto the left foot as doubletoe describes and everything is properly lined up. It is nearly impossible to whip an Axel from this entry. I hope that this was correct and helpful, and 5x5, I hope you can do more of these soon.
Lyle

Thanks for the explanation! The part about leaving over-rotated is helpful. But...
What's an instep?

[Mrs Redboots]

What's an instep?That part of the inside edge of your foot between the toes and the ankle. The bit where the arch is.

[Sessy]

Oh I get it. :) The ticklish part.

[Mrs Redboots]

Oh I get it. :) The ticklish part.That's the bit!

[doubletoe]

Thanks for the explanation! The part about leaving over-rotated is helpful. But...
What's an instep?


The instep of your foot is the inside of the middle part of the foot, where the arch is. It doesn't really have to be instep to heel, though. It's also fine to bring the ball of the left foot (front part of the foot) to the heel of the right foot. The important thing is to have the left foot at the heel or ankle of the right foot and to have the left foot turned out.

[xofivebyfive]

So um, I have a stress fracture in my right ankle. Which means I've had a stress fracture in my ankle since December. Which means I probably made it worse trying all these axels. (and it also means that I skated well at my first competition even with one.. so yeah)

Therefore, no skating for 5 weeks. I think I might go insane.

[doubletoe]

So um, I have a stress fracture in my right ankle. Which means I've had a stress fracture in my ankle since December. Which means I probably made it worse trying all these axels. (and it also means that I skated well at my first competition even with one.. so yeah)

Therefore, no skating for 5 weeks. I think I might go insane.

When you are all better and jumping on the floor again, try to invest in some sturdy boys' basketball shoes that have some cushion to them, as well as good ankle, heel and arch support. (I recommend boys' shoes because they are well made, but less expensive and many women can fit in the largest size). I have to admit I was nervous looking at the flmsy shoes you were jumping in in your video! Also, make sure you jump on a surface that isn't too hard and that you hop out of every jump landing.

[xofivebyfive]

When you are all better and jumping on the floor again, try to invest in some sturdy boys' basketball shoes that have some cushion to them, as well as good ankle, heel and arch support. (I recommend boys' shoes because they are well made, but less expensive and many women can fit in the largest size). I have to admit I was nervous looking at the flmsy shoes you were jumping in in your video! Also, make sure you jump on a surface that isn't too hard and that you hop out of every jump landing.
With my pink shoes in the first video, yeah that was bad. I kept slipping. But I have running shoes which is what I used yesterday/in the videos without jeans. :lol: Are my running sneakers okay to jump in? They felt a lot sturdier than my pink ones which are, in fact, very flimsy.

[das_mondlicht]

... no skating for 5 weeks. I think I might go insane.

Not sure you know this or not. There is Power Jump Off Ice Workshop every Sat morning around 10 to 11am at Mennen Rink 1 inner end. Instructor, Gail, was former US Pair Team member. You can stop by to watch how they do off ice jump training and related techniques. Worthy of watching but don't try it until you heal completely.

[xofivebyfive]

Not sure you know this or not. There is Power Jump Off Ice Workshop every Sat morning around 10 to 11am at Mennen Rink 1 inner end. Instructor, Gail, was former US Pair Team member. You can stop by to watch how they do off ice jump training and related techniques. Worthy of watching but don't try it until you heal completely.
Thanks! Yeah, definitely won't try it.

[doubletoe]

With my pink shoes in the first video, yeah that was bad. I kept slipping. But I have running shoes which is what I used yesterday/in the videos without jeans. :lol: Are my running sneakers okay to jump in? They felt a lot sturdier than my pink ones which are, in fact, very flimsy.

The reason I only do off-ice jumping in basketball shoes is because basketball shoes are designed for jumping and landing on slightly sticky surfaces (varnished wood basketball courts). They are designed specifically to protect your ankles. It is a really worthwhile investment! I love my Team Jordans. . . ;)

[Sessy]

Doubletoe, any chance you can look at my off ice axel attempt? :lol: It sucks majorly but cuz I'm not supposed to be trying the axel yet - quite a lot of the rest of the group doesn't have a decent waltz jump yet so the group trainers spend all the time on them basically and only let me practice the axel cuz they know how boring it is for me to practice waltz jumps all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGJoCusCA6Q


I'm jumping in socks cuz I've got linoleum floor and it just slides in socks kind of the way you would on ice and doesn't hurt my twisted anckle somehow.

[b viswanathan]

Sessy - totally off topic:

You look adorable in glasses! You definitely have the cutest look in them - you should enjoy that. Just figure out how to keep them tight on your face (maybe those Croakies Mrs. R mentioned?) if that's an issue for you. But otherwise, I think you'll look awesome skating with your glasses on...

Ok, back to our regularly scheduled (axel) programming...

bv

[Sessy]

I tried another few axels (and of course, now my anckle hurts again... grr) and Im more of an evening person so here goes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia3sp6t6qL4

I know its bad quality but the axels felt better (especially the 0:30 and green shirt ones felt stable, but still very underrotated anyway...)
I try to swing the leg past but I dont quite get how to!

[techskater]

The problem is that it doesn't swing per se, it should kick through and then snap over. You are leaving the floor with your free leg almost next to your take off leg (as opposed to waiting until it is all the way through) and your take off leg is definitely not deep enough in the knee to get enough height.

[doubletoe]

Stop hurting your ankle!!
Okay, I had to say that, and now here's my feedback on your video. . . ;)

You need to keep your right shoulder and right hip back as you turn out and step out onto the left foot. Then continue to keep that right shoulder and arm back until you leave the ice (or floor). Otherwise, you'll get no snap and won't get the quick rotation. Also, when you step out to jump, you need to get all your weight over the left knee and then take off as soon as the weight is all on the knee. You lose your momentum by stepping out, stopping and then jumping. I hope that helps!

[vesperholly]

It looks to me like you're not kicking your knee up enough. Try to drive it up so that your thigh is parallel to the floor and you are making a h position (seen from the side). My coach tells me to think "through and UP" to get the swing of the free leg working correctly.

[Sessy]

You need to keep your right shoulder ...


OOOOH this is helping LOTS!!! 8O In combination with thinking of becoming an h LOL!

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

:D
thanks!!!


I'm actually finishing the rotation on the floor in 1 spot now, and standing stable after the whole thing. So I guess all I need is more height, which is practiceable (I find it very difficult to jump off very bent legs for some reason).

[doubletoe]

OOOOH this is helping LOTS!!! 8O In combination with thinking of becoming an h LOL!

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

:D
thanks!!!

Anytime! ;) I am intimately acquainted with every possible mistake there is to make on the axel, LOL!

[Sessy]

Anytime! ;) I am intimately acquainted with every possible mistake there is to make on the axel, LOL!


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Remember this friend Ester I told you about on the USA board? The one that's saying she's too old for axels at age 32?
You two should like get together or something. This is totally something she'd say... She's working on yet another error in her jump off. I mean how many can you possibly make?!

[Team Arthritis]

Hey Sessy if you insist on doing so many floor jumps and twisting your ankle then try this, it is a floor axel exercise that Anita Kershorn taught us at a summer camp a couple of years ago specificly because it is so easy to injure yourself doing floor Axels:

you need a raised platform to land on - most people use a STRONG box made of wood about 30cm high, 30cm wide and 100cm long placed up against the wall. It also helps to tack some foam padding up on the wall. The goal is to land up on the box after 1/2 rotation with your landing hip striking the wall.

For CCW jumpers, stand with your left side about 100cm from the wall. Draw back and leading with the L shoulder jump up, kicking up the R knee and then turn/snap into it (as described in previous posts) so that you rotate 1/2 to 3/4 turn at just the point when your R hip smashes into the wall.

This exercise teaches you to lead with the skating side, to jump up and to snap and rotate over the landing leg, and to point your landing toe. Since you are jumping up to get on the box, you don't get much stress on the landing leg. Since you only rotate 3/4 turn you don't put so much twist in the ankle. Since you are trying to hit the wall with your hip you can't whip the rotation. Well so they say :) I rather liked this exercise but gave up as not having a strong wall available to hurl my body at.

Have fun http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/verschiedene/s020.gif
Lyle

[doubletoe]

Hey Sessy if you insist on doing so many floor jumps and twisting your ankle then try this, it is a floor axel exercise that Anita Kershorn taught us at a summer camp a couple of years ago specificly because it is so easy to injure yourself doing floor Axels:

you need a raised platform to land on - most people use a STRONG box made of wood about 30cm high, 30cm wide and 100cm long placed up against the wall. It also helps to tack some foam padding up on the wall. The goal is to land up on the box after 1/2 rotation with your landing hip striking the wall.

For CCW jumpers, stand with your left side about 100cm from the wall. Draw back and leading with the L shoulder jump up, kicking up the R knee and then turn/snap into it (as described in previous posts) so that you rotate 1/2 to 3/4 turn at just the point when your R hip smashes into the wall.

This exercise teaches you to lead with the skating side, to jump up and to snap and rotate over the landing leg, and to point your landing toe. Since you are jumping up to get on the box, you don't get much stress on the landing leg. Since you only rotate 3/4 turn you don't put so much twist in the ankle. Since you are trying to hit the wall with your hip you can't whip the rotation. Well so they say :) I rather liked this exercise but gave up as not having a strong wall available to hurl my body at.

Have fun http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/verschiedene/s020.gif
Lyle

Yes, that's an excellent exercise and it helped me get my axel on the floor. I call it the "bench exercise" because I always used a bench that was secured to the wall at my rink. I was taught to do just 1/2 turn, landing backward on my landing foot and in an open loop jump position (arms open and rounded in front of me, free leg in front with knee lifted and foot in front of my landing shin). When you can do this and land with total control in that position (not hitting the wall or over-rotating), try it on the floor and just pull in once you get to that point. When you land, you will have done an axel. :)

[Sessy]

I live in a student dorm house and I don't have a free wall in my room... :cry: :cry: :cry:

But I'll try to arrange something.
Can somebody maybe post a video of this exercise?
Cuz I don't get how you would smash with your right hip into the wall at 1/2 rotation, shouldn't your butt do? And at 3/4th rotation, wouldn't your left hip smash the wall?


BTW I think my achilles thingy might be the real problem... I wrote mom and she said I've ALWAYS had a problem with that tendon since I was a little child and recently, I had that weird anckle twist with skating boots on that seemed to snap something in the front and in the back of the anckle at the same time and I'm thinking the achilles tendon might be injured. Cuz it's not so much the twisting that hurts, it's the up-and-down motion. Especially the down motion. Hurts like from the back of my heel to about 1/3rd of the distance between my heel and my knee at the back and radiates through the whole leg.
Standing on my toes on the right foot is also virtually impossible (like a relivee arabesque in ballet)
Anyway we have like 1 week of intensive skating left, then 3 weeks of 1 hour per week and then nothing for the rest of the summer so I'm guessing I'll take it easy during the break and it'll heal. If it won't, I'll see a doctor. But I really, really don't like doctors.

[Team Arthritis]

Arrgh be careful of that Achilles- I had to have mine surgicly repaired - no fun and hurt for another year. The best Achilles exercises are of a type called Ecentric. In this type of exercise you stretch the tendon while lengthening it, just like the stress of landing a jump-> stand with the ball of BOTH your feet on the edge of a step, go up on both feet, now sink down and stretch the Achilles on only ONE foot (up on 2, down on 1). I start my pre-skating stretches with 5 min of this EVERY DAY.

As far as the jump up onto a step -> if you noticed DoubleToe and I emphasized 2 different ways to do this. When you beginning, then its hard to get the body to shift over to the landing leg side. For me, it became easier if my goal was to hit the landing leg hip or buttocks against the wall - this made me tighten that part and really focus on that side. As you get better, you do it like 2toes and land light as a feather right on top of the box without hitting the wall and only use the wall for ballance. Can't do this at the dorm but in most gyms there is a pad on the wall behind the basketball basket. Make your box and put it there!

Have fun http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/sportlich/d015.gif
Lyle

[xofivebyfive]

Is this any better? I found it on my camera. I must have done it either the day of or the day before my MRI since I haven't jumped since then and it looks like I took people's suggestions. Anyway, take a look? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-amItnOFz3E)

[Sessy]

oopsie I meant to reply not to edit.

[doubletoe]

Is this any better? I found it on my camera. I must have done it either the day of or the day before my MRI since I haven't jumped since then and it looks like I took people's suggestions. Anyway, take a look? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-amItnOFz3E)

It looks like you are not bending the takeoff knee when you step out onto the takeoff foot. It's VERY hard to jump off of a straight leg! Also, the timing of the stepout and takeoff should be a little quicker: Get ready, bring foot in to heel, push out and spring up.

[xofivebyfive]

It looks like you are not bending the takeoff knee when you step out onto the takeoff foot. It's VERY hard to jump off of a straight leg! Also, the timing of the stepout and takeoff should be a little quicker: Get ready, bring foot in to heel, push out and spring up.

Thanks! I shall make the adjustments(in 3 weeks). I appreciate you taking the time to look at all these videos I post. I want to make sure I'm the most prepared I can be when I try one on the ice.

[Team Arthritis]

Is this any better? I found it on my camera. I must have done it either the day of or the day before my MRI since I haven't jumped since then and it looks like I took people's suggestions. Anyway, take a look? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-amItnOFz3E)

Funny, I went skating in the morning before my back surgery- why not, might as well do something fun to take your mind off of it. Hope the MRI was good.

I wish my floor axels looked so good! My only concern is that you are rotating your jumping foot pretty far to the left as you step forewards and that may be a little hard to do on the ice, but on the other hand you'll get a nice curve off of the ice. I expect that we'll see nice ice axels from you sometime soon!
Lyle

[xofivebyfive]

Funny, I went skating in the morning before my back surgery- why not, might as well do something fun to take your mind off of it. Hope the MRI was good.

I wish my floor axels looked so good! My only concern is that you are rotating your jumping foot pretty far to the left as you step forewards and that may be a little hard to do on the ice, but on the other hand you'll get a nice curve off of the ice. I expect that we'll see nice ice axels from you sometime soon!
Lyle
The MRI showed a stress fracture. :frus: I understand what you're saying rotating that foot a little too much. But really the reason I was taping myself was to see if I could get the rotation, but I guess it's a good thing I'm learning better habits as well. :lol:

[doubletoe]

The MRI showed a stress fracture. :frus: I understand what you're saying rotating that foot a little too much. But really the reason I was taping myself was to see if I could get the rotation, but I guess it's a good thing I'm learning better habits as well. :lol:

Actually, I noticed that, too. Turning your foot out that much on the takeoff edge will make it hard to get into the correct rotational position in the air, so try to keep it straight forward on the floor so that you don't get into the same habit on the ice. I used to do that, and it made my takeoff edge pre-rotate, which made me spin my axel over my left side. It made it impossible for me to get backward over my landing hip in the air.

[Sessy]

Team Arthritis, I tried it and that hit the spot right on. The stretching range on my right foot is infinately smaller than on my left foot and also infinately smaller than it used to be when I was dancing. Makes me go hmm...
It felt very unpleasant to stretch it, but not necessarily painful. It also didn't hurt afterwards, just continued to feel very... "yikes" is the only word I can put on it, kind of powerless.


I noticed yesterday I was landing my flips exactly the way I did before my injury - slightly rougher takeoff but the exact same landing and no pain on it, after a "warming up" of 1,5 programme practice on ice and when even my feet felt hot... I'm thinking a thorough warming up for the tendons might speed up recovery. And since I notice you've got a lot of knowledge about the workings of our bodies:
Any tips you have for warming up specifically the achillis tendons?

Everybody seems to tell you how to stretch them, on google, or how to warm up your calfs, but nobody really says how to warm up the achillis tendon... if that's even possible.

[Team Arthritis]

Everybody seems to tell you how to stretch them, on google, or how to warm up your calfs, but nobody really says how to warm up the achillis tendon... if that's even possible.

Funny thing that nobody notices the word "warm" in warmup - anything that makes it physically warmer helps! The stretches help - if you really want to get into it do them with the knee straight and then again with the knee DEEPLY bent (as was shown in an earlier post on stretching) as this will hit the 2 different muscles that attach to your Achilles : Gastrocnemius and Soleus. Be very careful - if its bothering you you may benefit far more from a month of NO jumps than from extensive stretching and warming every day!

One thing that helps any overuse injury is icerubs right after the exercise - Take a small paper cup and squeeze/ crimp it in the middle (to give you something to hang on to) and then fill it with water and freeze it. When you get back from skating, etc, hold the ice cup in a towel, tear off the top rim to expose the ice and rub the tender spots. Be careful - if you overdo it you will give yourself frostbite and develop skin sores (I did this with my Achilles injury several time:roll: ) Be careful
Lyle

[Sessy]

I'm keeping the jumping to a total minimum now, no, honest. No axel attempts either. I've been stretching it like all day, listening to lectures and everything... while it's stretched, it seems to hurt less. So I'm just gonna continue doing that.

And thanks for the icing advise! :) That's clever.
Generally I leave my bottle of water standing around while really I don't even like cold water but I just forget it, and it doesn't freeze through, just gets really cold I'm gonna try "icing" it with that I think.

[Isk8NYC]

Funny thing that nobody notices the word "warm" in warmup - anything that makes it physically warmer helps! You're right: I wear my snow pants for teaching as well as for early-morning workouts. Staying warm really helps my knees loosen up quicker.

One thing that helps any overuse injury is icerubs right after the exercise - Take a small paper cup and squeeze/ crimp it in the middle (to give you something to hang on to) and then fill it with water and freeze it. I used to freeze water in plastic sandwich bags. The bag was easier to hold and kept me from getting wet. (You can pour off the melted ice water and reseal.)

Never thought of molding it, though. Very smart!

[Team Arthritis]

Oh yeh one more thing about Achilles tendons -> when you sleep at night your feet extend/ point, and this takes the tension off of the Achilles and it shortens! When you get up in the morning it is noticeably tighter (same thing with Plantar fasciitis BTW). You can wear a splint at night that keeps you ankle at a 90 degree angle and this may help. At the very least, be gentle with yourself in the AM and rub and slowly stretch your foot and achilles before jumping up and running around the bedroom:lol:
Lyle

[larsa_skater2]

Hi there, If your trying to get the axel I have some tips to help. :) When you step forward make sure to keep your arms behiend to get more fly in the air and keep your knee on the ice bent. Through out the jump keep your stomack and back straight and remember after pushing off the ice to do an "H" position and snap in your arms and leg. When landing show off even if it wasn't all that good. Hope I helped ;)

[Isk8NYC]

Thanks and welcome to the Board! Hope to hear from you often!

[Sessy]

Not doing jumps off ice not to harm my anckle eh? I knew I wouldn't keep it up for longer than a week... :x

Here's normal speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLuzdC_xIds
The first two are trying to do the h-thing with the leg... somehow it's no longer helping! Next two are just average attempts

Here's slomo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrNe0tObMI
Here there's only one attempt with the h-thing, the other two are the average attempts.

I dunno, the first of the average attempts seems like it'd be an axel if it had more height and time to finish the rotation, but is height really the problem or what is?


Also I am trying to keep the right (left on camera) shoulder back as you said but it's somehow not really working... I seem to pull it forwards anyway, more than I thought I was doing! Gotta work on that I guess. Somehow I'm not nearly as bent on my leg either as I thought I was and I think I need to look up, not down on the takeoff, but ehm any other suggestions?

It's not like I'm expecting anybody to act like a private coach or something, don't think that please! I'm just puzzled that thinking of this h-thing that first worked is now not working 'n stuff


And for more fun stuff, here's the complete competition programme off ice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UD_rm3TApE
I'll be dropping the loop from the flip-loop combo probably. AND NOT TOUCHING MY NOSE! Darnit I always did that in dancing comps too when I got nervous!

[Team Arthritis]

Sessie, I think it looks pretty good, have you shown your coach yet? MAybe its time for the bubblewrap!
Lyle
PS I like the program, very graceful

[Sessy]

I only do group lessons and the girls in my group are still working on their flips & loops (more like, their half flips lol) so I think asking to do the axel is gonna get me a reply like when I asked to test, "but you already passed 5 tests this year, isn't that enough?", and besides, we have 2 or 3 trainings/lessons left before the end of the season and they're best spent praciticing for that test I so wanted and get to take now!

I hope to take at least a few private lessons next season (starting september) - the coach I wanted to take them with wanted to get me started on the axel in january when I first landed a lutz (it wasn't necessarily repeatable then), but she had private problems so she couldn't teach but she's okay now and will be teaching next year - but by then I'm hoping to have the axel nailed down off-ice already so I don't loose so much not skating in the summer. :)

Thanks! :D

[doubletoe]

Not doing jumps off ice not to harm my anckle eh? I knew I wouldn't keep it up for longer than a week... :x

Here's normal speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLuzdC_xIds
I dunno, the first of the average attempts seems like it'd be an axel if it had more height and time to finish the rotation, but is height really the problem or what is?


Also I am trying to keep the right (left on camera) shoulder back as you said but it's somehow not really working... I seem to pull it forwards anyway, more than I thought I was doing! Gotta work on that I guess. Somehow I'm not nearly as bent on my leg either as I thought I was and I think I need to look up, not down on the takeoff, but ehm any other suggestions?

Hi, Sessy! :) I would say your only problem is the timing of the takeoff. After you step out onto the takeoff foot, you are waiting too long before jumping. When you wait so long and you don't have an actual edge to ride (like you would on the ice), your right hip starts to come forward and square up with your left hip and then you don't have any way to create that hip snap in the air that gives you rotation.
Just remember: On ice, you need to hold the edge for a second before taking off, but on the floor, you need to step out onto the takeoff foot and then take off immediately (just make sure your weight is over your left knee and the ball of your foot when you step onto the left foot, both on the ice and on the floor).

[Sessy]

Teehee thanks! :lol:

[Sessy]

Ookay... I've got a new vid. Yeah I know shouldn't really practice it landing on right generally, since I have still got that problem with the anckle. But the achillis seems fine now, it is just a bunch of small muscles or whatever on the top of the foot and by the sides of the heel that are still bothering me. Doc cleared me for mild activity and lots of stretching a while ago. My idea of mild activity is 1 off ice axel ;) Hey come on I've kept the no jumping thing up for almost 2 months! :)
And no jumping is making me FAT! :(

I have been practicing just the takeoff (landing on left) and some backspins on the spin trainer lately. So this is what I have got now. I didnt dare to try again because of the anckle, but it felt like I was back on earth dissapointingly fast on this one compared to the 1-foot axels i have been trying, I guess I didnt get as deep a knee bend as I usually try to focus on because I was focussing on now having to rotate over my right hip instead of left.

Looks a lot like last time, I cant practice it well - why am I posting?
Cuz I noticed two things myself and I wanna know if Im right.

1. Is it just me or does the air position look better than last time?
2. I think I am unchecking my right arm far too early? I seem to be popping it out at the moment I would be for all the singles, but this is of course 1,5 so I'd need to hold it longer and then I'll spin more too right?

So here's this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUfPauIMQ0I

(and here's last time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrNe0tObMI )

[doubletoe]

Ookay... I've got a new vid. Yeah I know shouldn't really practice it landing on right generally, since I have still got that problem with the anckle. But the achillis seems fine now, it is just a bunch of small muscles or whatever on the top of the foot and by the sides of the heel that are still bothering me. Doc cleared me for mild activity and lots of stretching a while ago. My idea of mild activity is 1 off ice axel ;) Hey come on I've kept the no jumping thing up for almost 2 months! :)
And no jumping is making me FAT! :(

I have been practicing just the takeoff (landing on left) and some backspins on the spin trainer lately. So this is what I have got now. I didnt dare to try again because of the anckle, but it felt like I was back on earth dissapointingly fast on this one compared to the 1-foot axels i have been trying, I guess I didnt get as deep a knee bend as I usually try to focus on because I was focussing on now having to rotate over my right hip instead of left.

Looks a lot like last time, I cant practice it well - why am I posting?
Cuz I noticed two things myself and I wanna know if Im right.

1. Is it just me or does the air position look better than last time?
2. I think I am unchecking my right arm far too early? I seem to be popping it out at the moment I would be for all the singles, but this is of course 1,5 so I'd need to hold it longer and then I'll spin more too right?

So here's this time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUfPauIMQ0I

(and here's last time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTrNe0tObMI )

Hi, Sessy. :) Yes, you are getting a little more rotation now than in the old video. In March you were 1/2 turn under-rotated (landing forward and then hopping for the final 1/2 turn). Now you are about 1/3 turn under-rotated on the landing, so it's definitely better. The thing I noticed is that you have your left arm extended forward and your right arm held back just before takeoff, which is a little strange. If you watch videos of axel takeoffs, you'll see that the skater always brings both arms back just before takeoff so that the arms can come through together and help provide a little momentum. You are only using your right arm right now, which is probably making it harder to get up and around. Also, if you felt like you weren't getting enough knee bend before takeoff, focus on really pushing out over your takeoff knee (so the knee is right over the toes) and then rolling up off the toes. You're most of the way there, though! :)

[Sessy]

Yeah I noticed the arm thing too. I guess it helps me get the shoulders lined up or something and that's how I started doing it or something without even noticing LOL! I'll focus on that arm.
Am I popping the right arm out too early? I am aren't I?

Oh, check out your PM on you tube I send you a pic of my bielman :) that one's coming along nicely too. :lol: I'm actually enjoying stretching for it, makes my back feel all relaxed afterwards. :lol:

Thanks for the comments! :) I'll try the rolling thing, it sounds good.

[vesperholly]

A simple fix: Your right leg is too far out to the side on the take off. You need to swing it through, like you're kicking a ball, not around. Swinging it around will mess up the FO edge when you're on the ice.