3 turns at speed

[Team Arthritis]

I'm having trouble with 3 turns in dances, especially flatish ones going fast - they seem to always skid rather than turn crisply - right now that L chasse into LFO3 on the Willow Waltz messes me up too. Lesson yesterday coach had me unlearn my twist into circle, hold then turn as it makes things worse at speed. Instead the only thing that helped was to think about a Waltz Jump entry! (coach likes leading with skating side of body , hold the step with both arms back) THis seemed to help me stay over my skate better and not pre-rotate but still very inconsistant.

So any ideas on how to do a crisp FO3 while skating fast????
TIA Lyle

[phoenix]

Beyond the obvious (huge amounts of practice), here are some things to think about:

Your coach is totally right about not rotating too much into the turn. The higher you go, the more this will become crucial. The shoulders & hips turn together as one unit. This takes a lot of practice!

Make sure you're drawing your free foot *straight* into the skating foot, not *around*. Your feet should be together/touching as you actually do the turn.

Don't rise too early--make sure your skating knee stays DOWN until the very moment when it's time to do the turn--then it's rise-turn-rebend.

Make sure, even though it's "flattish" as you say, that you are indeed on an edge; if you're not, it will scrape every time.

Make sure your back is very very straight; if you lean forward at all/pitch your shoulders forward, it will scrape.

[Rusty Blades]

*** Dianne listens intently - this is something she is struggling with to! ***

[Mrs Redboots]

The only answer to this question I have ever found is very simple:

a dance partner!


I can't turn at any sort of speed on my own, but have a very respectable 3-turn and mohawk when dancing with the Husband (or any other half-decent male partner, for that matter. Some make it easier than the Husband does!).

Lyle, the worst thing about those steps in the Willow is the timing - it's sort of 1, 2, something, 1, 2, something the whole time - so 1, 2 run, 1, 2, chassé, 1, 2, 3-turn in your case. Sometimes getting the timing right helps. And if you are dancing with your wife, or anybody else for that matter, please get on a LBO edge, not a flat, when she is trying to do her RFO3, it really does make it so much easier!

And I can't even begin to do the dance on my own, and :bow: :bow: to those who can (especially my Husband, Frbskate63 and Kateskate, who competed it against one another - and others - all last season!).

[Sessy]

Knee bending & unbending deeply and just in time, timing, and minding where your arms (or rather, shoulders) and head are, basically. And lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of practice.

[Skittl1321]

Speed? Isn't it enough that I managed to turn?

I'll second Mrs Redboots suggestion of finding a partner- I manage to fly when holding onto my coach- but that certainly is not on my own accord, nor a product of good technique.

[aussieskater]

Skittl1321 Speed? Isn't it enough that I managed to turn?

ROFL - that's way too true for comfort! :D :D

[SkatingOnClouds]

The shoulders & hips turn together as one unit. This takes a lot of practice!

??? I was taught that that the shoulders went first, then the hips, that it was the torque of shoulders twisted then release of the hips to follow the shoulders that caused the rotation, facilitated by the bend/rise/bend

[Derek]

Since I am now trying to get my head round backward turns, I am paying a lot of attention to what I am doing forwards. I have noticed that I line my arms up, and turn my head, but not shoulders. Then at the point of turning, the whole body turns, with the exception of the head, and the arms.

Skidding? Is that caused by remaining centred over the blade when turning, whereas during a 3 turn there should be a moment of being off balance (at the cusp), and that is what creates the turn?

[russiet]

A keeping my back straight helps me, escpecially if I'm in a series of footwork. Lighter edges, too.

For a single 3-turn at speed, I can go deep on the edge, twist the upper body and wait for longer than seems necessary. A light bounce and you'll then snap around.

[phoenix]

??? I was taught that that the shoulders went first, then the hips, that it was the torque of shoulders twisted then release of the hips to follow the shoulders that caused the rotation, facilitated by the bend/rise/bend

That's how most of us are taught to begin with. But as you advance, and especially if you are a dancer, the technique gets refined so there is less & less upper body rotation leading the turn.

I was first taught this by a Russian coach, & Russians defintely do things differently w/ shoulders in general, so I don't know if it's mainly a Russian technique---but here in the US, Russian technique is sweeping the country (at least in my region, for ice dance--credit the influx of Russian coaches). It definitely works though--cleaner turns & absolutely no checking issues on the exit.

I still teach pre-rotated shoulders to beginning skaters, and I ponder at what point to start switching them over to the non-rotated entry. It takes a lot of control & more finesse/core strength than a beginner has.

[Mrs Redboots]

That's how most of us are taught to begin with. But as you advance, and especially if you are a dancer, the technique gets refined so there is less & less upper body rotation leading the turn.

My coach says, though, that the reason why I can only do 3 of the 32 one-footed turns at all decently (I can sort-of do more than that, of course, but certainly not all 32!) is because I have issues with upper-body rotation, and he's quite right. I think you need to learn to do them with upper-body rotation, and only refine your technique once you are confident.

I also find that doing them with a partner, I have and need far less upper body rotation (at least I think I do!) than doing them solo. Hmm....

[Isk8NYC]

That's how most of us are taught to begin with. But as you advance, and especially if you are a dancer, the technique gets refined so there is less & less upper body rotation leading the turn.By no stretch of the imagination am I an ice dancer, but I have noticed in my skating that what phoenix has described is true: I needed the "extreme check-press back on the shoulder..." at the beginning of the season, but now practice has brought me to the point where I can do threes on the circle by keeping my arms on the circle pattern. I still do check with my shoulders/arms, but it's much less obvious. The Pre-Juv 3 turn patterns are my goal for the summer.

[Isk8NYC]

I still teach pre-rotated shoulders to beginning skaters, and I ponder at what point to start switching them over to the non-rotated entry. It takes a lot of control & more finesse/core strength than a beginner has.I teach it pre-rotated for the Basic Skills levels 6 and below.

Once they've learned the one-foot pickup spin, I reteach three turns with the arms rotating into the circle - still extreme rotation, though. I use that to teach the one-foot spin entry because now they can move their arms while holding an edge. (Can anyone say "snap?")

Once they've mastered a one-foot spin, I review their 3's and note how much stronger they are and how they "don't really need" the extreme shoulder rotation anymore. Doing the circular 3's front and back is fun for them at that point.

Of course, they then have to learn brackets and rockers, so we have to learn the upper body rotation all over again! LOL

[Rob Dean]

But as you advance, and especially if you are a dancer, the technique gets refined so there is less & less upper body rotation leading the turn. ...

I still teach pre-rotated shoulders to beginning skaters, and I ponder at what point to start switching them over to the non-rotated entry. It takes a lot of control & more finesse/core strength than a beginner has.

Seeing as I was working the same turn as Lyle in the Willow in my Monday lesson, this is all very interesting. I've got a lesson tonight and will make sure to engage my primary coach on this.

Sometimes I think this would be easier if I knew that I was going to be learning N rather different skills which happen to have the same name as I got better, rather than periodically concluding that I've been doing something wrong all along...

Rob

[doubletoe]

This is not specific to dance, but there are two lessons I learned from doing 3-turns with speed as entrances for flips and toeloops:
1) Imagine the 3-turn is starting and ending on a line (or even better, actually practice it on a line and look at your ice marks afterwards). When you push off onto the entrance edge, push out to the right of the line for a LFO or RFI 3-turn, and push out to the left of the line for a RFO or LFI 3-turn. Make sure the turn itself also stays on the side of the line you pushed out to. This will give you more control over the edge.
2) The more speed you have, the deeper knee and ankle bend you need to control your edge, both on the entrance and exit edges.

[jenlyon60]

This is not specific to dance, but there are two lessons I learned from doing 3-turns with speed as entrances for flips and toeloops:
1) Imagine the 3-turn is starting and ending on a line (or even better, actually practice it on a line and look at your ice marks afterwards). When you push off onto the entrance edge, push out to the right of the line for a LFO or RFI 3-turn, and push out to the left of the line for a RFO or LFI 3-turn. Make sure the turn itself also stays on the side of the line you pushed out to. This will give you more control over the edge.
2) The more speed you have, the deeper knee and ankle bend you need to control your edge, both on the entrance and exit edges.


And actually what doubletoe is saying directly corresponds to how one tracks into an FO3 when in waltz hold with a partner. Contrary to what seems logical, one does not normally set the stroke "outside" of the dance frame--if you do, you will end up doing the turn "around" partner and be in the wrong place (in relationship to partner) after the turn, which can give both you and partner issues in terms of control and staying on pattern.

Rather one wants to normally initiate the edge into the FO3 skating towards partner's center. Then as you prepare for the actual turn, and partner continues on his/her lobe, you will be in the ideal spot to make the turn easier, and partner will be in the "magic spot" for both the turnee and the partner to continue the pattern with maximum ease.

[Mrs Redboots]

Rather one wants to normally initiate the edge into the FO3 skating towards partner's center. Then as you prepare for the actual turn, and partner continues on his/her lobe, you will be in the ideal spot to make the turn easier, and partner will be in the "magic spot" for both the turnee and the partner to continue the pattern with maximum ease.Assuming, this is, that your partner actually continues on the lobe you assumed he was going to continue on. And that he doesn't stick his dirty great blade just where you were going. And.....

Sigh! Skating with a pro is just sooooo much easier! But it's much more fun skating with someone who struggles nearly as much as you do!

[phoenix]

Seeing as I was working the same turn as Lyle in the Willow in my Monday lesson, this is all very interesting. I've got a lesson tonight and will make sure to engage my primary coach on this.

Sometimes I think this would be easier if I knew that I was going to be learning N rather different skills which happen to have the same name as I got better, rather than periodically concluding that I've been doing something wrong all along...

Rob

Remember I suspect this originates in Russian style, so your coach may or may not agree with it depending on their own training. I had always been taught the rotated entrance before, and I know some coaches keep it that way all the way up.

However, speaking as someone who had to solo the European Waltz for 3 months last summer for competition ( :!: ), I can assure you that the Russian technique works really really well and makes it SO much easier....once you get it down. I spent hours, days, weeks just doing 3 turn exercises.

And I'm talking non-rotation to the point of:
-step onto LO edge, *left* should leads slightly.
-Rise up to turn, shoulders come to square (parallel to hips, perpendicular to print)
-And turn.

That's all you get! It takes time to pull it together.

[cassarilda]

I dont know whether this will help, or Im stating the obvious, but whilst hubby is perfecting my three turns (which I did perfectly the other day and promptly lost again :frus: ), he has been telling me to lead with my hips, rather than my shoulders..

so rather than throwing my arms and shoulders first in my skating, even during stroking, if I lead with my hips, or focus there, it tends to help... Obviously I still rotate my shoulders with the turn, but its less the focus of it all now.

I think its because initially there is so much attention paid to rotating shoulders first, you forget, or never learn, that its your hips doing most of the work, and this just brings your attention back to that.

(obviously, normal skating position should be maintained, and dont really skate with your hips/pelvic region as the forward most point! :lol: :P )

[jskater49]

I dont know whether this will help, or Im stating the obvious, but whilst hubby is perfecting my three turns (which I did perfectly the other day and promptly lost again :frus: ), he has been telling me to lead with my hips, rather than my shoulders..

so rather than throwing my arms and shoulders first in my skating, even during stroking, if I lead with my hips, or focus there, it tends to help... Obviously I still rotate my shoulders with the turn, but its less the focus of it all now.

I think its because initially there is so much attention paid to rotating shoulders first, you forget, or never learn, that its your hips doing most of the work, and this just brings your attention back to that.

(obviously, normal skating position should be maintained, and dont really skate with your hips/pelvic region as the forward most point! :lol: :P )

I find that thinking about leading with the hip helps everything...it keeps my back straight, it helps with edges ... even forward spirals...it's a helpful concept

[SkatingOnClouds]

Ah, yet another thing I didn't know that I didn't know :roll:
Thanks for explaining it, I will try it tomorrow.

[cassarilda]

I find that thinking about leading with the hip helps everything...it keeps my back straight, it helps with edges ... even forward spirals...it's a helpful concept

It also helps me realise when ive dropped my hip (i tend to drop my right hip all the time which doesnt help when my 'good' side is my left foot), so Im aware its down, and have to try and lift it to ensure Im on the edge :) I definately need that hip up in order to do 3turns

[Mrs Redboots]

(obviously, normal skating position should be maintained, and dont really skate with your hips/pelvic region as the forward most point! :lol: :P )
Actually, according to my coach, that is exactly the part of you that should be leading!

[Team Arthritis]

And I'm talking non-rotation to the point of:
-step onto LO edge, *left* should leads slightly.
-Rise up to turn, shoulders come to square (parallel to hips, perpendicular to print)
-And turn.

That's all you get! It takes time to pull it together.
Yeh that's what my coach was teaching me. I still can't figure out what makes you turn on this but one trick seems to be leaning into the circle. My major problems (well as of yesterday, who knows what tonight may bring!) are breaking at the waist -> out of fear I suppose; and my position on the blade -> too flat and BIIIIIGGGG skid vs up to far and toegrab emergency, emergency, bailout.

Why is it that everything is better when I bend my poor arthritic knees more?:roll:
Lyle

[Team Arthritis]

(obviously, normal skating position should be maintained, and dont really skate with your hips/pelvic region as the forward most point! :lol: :P )
Homer leads with his navel woohoo! http://www.cosgan.de/images/midi/figuren/h040.gif
:twisted: Lyle