Indian Skating (part 2)

[sunjoy]

There was a thread (http://www.skatingforums.com/showthread.php?t=22022) a while back about the Indian Pairs Tapei JGP videos on youtube. The pair were severely outclassed, and perhaps were roller-skaters unfamiliar with ice.

A couple of updates. Ami Prakesh is an American skater who now competes for India. She got bronze at the '03 North Atlantic Regionals. Finished 20th at the '07 4CC with a PB. She was born, grew up, and trained in the US, so her results aren't exceptional, but I'm glad that pairs team aren't the sole reps for Indian figure skating.

Wikipedia lists another Indian skater competing in Ladies Aadnya Borkar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aadnya_Borkar). Borkar is Indian-born and now competes in Oman. Nowhere near Prakesh's standard though, to judge from their numerical results.

As for the youTube pair, I found their free skate from the JGP, and it seems to show marked improvement from the short (alought they only scored some 4 points). This shows they have some potential but I guess they were pushed onto the ice a bit earlier than was good for them. They look miserable at the K&C. Their youTube performances: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=india+pairs+skaters&search=Search

[mikawendy]

Ami Prakesh is an American skater who now competes for India. She got bronze at the '03 North Atlantic Regionals. Finished 20th at the '07 4CC with a PB. She was born, grew up, and trained in the US, so her results aren't exceptional, but I'm glad that pairs team aren't the sole reps for Indian figure skating.

Thanks for the Youtube link!

Also, I think you mean Ami Parekh, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ami_Parekh) not Prakesh? My friends saw her skate at the U.S. Nationals sendoff show at University of Delaware--they enjoyed seeing her skate.

[b viswanathan]

Here's a thought: Isn't it a little strange that someone who was "born, raised, and trained in the US" now competes for India? I mean, I know it happens with other countries, but as an Indian-American who self-identifies as American far more than Indian (and I was born in India, for the record, but raised here), I'd find it awfully odd to be competing for any country other than the US...OTOH, if she feels comfortable representing India, I guess it's just fine, right?

I'm sure I'm letting my own experience color my view, so I'd be interested in hearing what others think of this. I certainly don't want to be unfair or judgmental, and am rather trying to figure out how it all works out...

[Lark]

b, I myself don't see how someone can just "switch" countries to compete.

If I were an Elite athlete, I think I would give up competing, or push myself harder, before I would represent another country. I just could not see myself winning Worlds or the Olympics and feeling "complete" with an anthem other than the Star Spangled Banner playing.

Maybe if your parents are born in another country, it is easier because you are representing your parents' homeland. I do not know.

[sunjoy]

I don't know her story. She may or may not have had strong ties to India while growing up, or strong ties to the Indian community in the States. She may or may not have identified primarily as Indian or American or both.

She's obviously a *good* skater, but not good enough to make the US national team, so competing for India gives her an opportunity she'd never have otherwise had, not to mention gives India good representation in FSing that it was lacking. It goes beyond her individual acheivements, as having her compete for India ought to stegnthen the India program as a whole, and help inspire, fund, and train native-born Indian skaters.

So many of us take jobs in different countries because of the opportunities afforded (indeed many Asian-American's ancestors *came* to the US for exactly that reason). Likewise, many businesses outsource (for example to India) because of the economic opportunity that affords them. Skating is also a profession, and why should it be looked-on differently? Think of the many Russian coaches here in the US.

Yes it would be odd for an American skater who places at regionals but not Nationals to go skate under some random flag just for the opportunity, but on economic grounds, who can argue? When a skater has cultural ties to the nation she chooses to skate for though, it makes perfect sense.

[jazzpants]

Here's a thought: Isn't it a little strange that someone who was "born, raised, and trained in the US" now competes for India? I mean, I know it happens with other countries, but as an Indian-American who self-identifies as American far more than Indian (and I was born in India, for the record, but raised here), I'd find it awfully odd to be competing for any country other than the US...OTOH, if she feels comfortable representing India, I guess it's just fine, right?

I'm sure I'm letting my own experience color my view, so I'd be interested in hearing what others think of this. I certainly don't want to be unfair or judgmental, and am rather trying to figure out how it all works out...
Well, here's something to consider... if your goals has always been to be able to have the experience of competing at international competitions like 4CC's and Worlds, would you rather go thru the stiff competition of competing against TONS of other skaters in the US and potentially not be able to compete at Worlds and 4CC... OR would you want an easier time (and less competitions, if any) at a country where skating is underpresented and you may have an easier time to get the whole experience of being at Worlds and 4CC?

I, of course, don't care either way whether a skater competes for an under presented country or skate in the US, but it's something to consider in the grand scheme of things....

[Sylvia]

There's a little bit of info on Ami Parekh, age 19, in her own words in ISIO's short program report from Four Continents: http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/current/content/4c07l.htm
"My mother and father were born in India. I was born here but I lived in India for a year. I can speak some Hindi, but not very fluently. We have a state language as well, which I understand. I feel a strong connection with this country. The (Indian Skating) Federation is only a few years [old]."

Parekh placed 18th in the FS (20th overall), rotating a double axel and a triple toe-double toe combination, had high level spins, and set new personal best scores at Four Continents -- here's the link to her ISU bio:
http://www.isufs.org/bios/isufs00009836.htm

She got bronze at the '03 North Atlantic Regionals.
That was the season in which Ami Parekh qualified for the Eastern Sectional Championships at the Novice level and placed 9th of 12: http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_related_details.asp?ri=/content/events/200203/sect-eastern/novladies-free.htm (side note: Meissner, Zukowski and Boulos also competed there and all 3 competed in the Senior ladies event at 2007 U.S. Nationals).

Parekh also did well at the two qualifying levels below Novice, winning back-to-back North Atlantic Regional titles in Juvenile and Intermediate (she didn't need a double axel because the rest of her skating was strong), and competing in Nationals at those levels.

An acquaintance of mine who saw Parekh's FS at Four Continents on Saturday thought she had "really lovely spins and dance quality" (to "La Bayadere" ballet music).

[Emberchyld]

Sometimes, it's not where you're born that determines your culture.

I'm Portuguese American. Born here, raised here, went to school here, but I culturally identify more with the Portuguese (because of the way that I was raised) than pure American culture. It doesn't mean that I don't love being an American (I'm always torn when the US soccer team plays Portugal!), but if I was an olympic-level athlete, I probably would compete for Portugal. (One of the Portuguese athletes in the last Torino games was a skiier from Massachusetts) I think this is something that a lot of first generation kids struggle with-- in a sense, you have two homes that you love. So, I don't find Ms. Parekh's decision strange.

And, facing competitive reality-- at least she has a chance to compete on the international level when she skates for India... versus skating here.

[flippet]

Their youTube performances: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=india+pairs+skaters&search=Search

There's a few things that they do rather nicely--they appear to have a lot of potential, but likely simply need quite a bit more coaching and training time. They're obviously out of their depth in these competitions, but that by no means indicates that they're bad skaters. You've got to start somewhere, right? I give them so much credit for getting out there--that takes a lot of courage.

[Lark]

Where is the rule that every country can send skaters to an event? Is there one now?

I am just really torn about these guys skating in this competition with that level of, uhm, ability.

In baseball, they would not allow a pitcher who can only throw 10 mph.

One side is telling me that these guys should be able to represent their country. Another side is saying that figure skating is a *SPORT* and these guys are not up to par. Just my opinion, and I have to settle out what I feel about it, I suppose. :giveup:

[cathrl]

Where is the rule that every country can send skaters to an event? Is there one now?

I am just really torn about these guys skating in this competition with that level of, uhm, ability.

In baseball, they would not allow a pitcher who can only throw 10 mph.

One side is telling me that these guys should be able to represent their country. Another side is saying that figure skating is a *SPORT* and these guys are not up to par. Just my opinion, and I have to settle out what I feel about it, I suppose. :giveup:

It depends how you feel about sport, though. I mean, over here in the UK our main sport is soccer, and the main knockout competition is the FA Cup. And all teams can enter. Right down to the little amateur ones. Of course, they have to go through vast numbers of qualifying rounds to even get to have a chance to play a pro team, but they can enter. And every so often, one of them makes it through qualifying and gets a match against a huge pro club like Manchester United. Just occasionally, one of them beats a huge pro club like Manchester United. It keeps the big guys on their toes to know they don't get through by right, but only by being better than the rest. The worst club in our league at the end of the season doesn't get the top pick of the new players for the following year to help them improve. They get demoted and replaced by the best team from the division below them.

I'd have to say, that's the version of sport I prefer, rather than one where we take 32 predetermined teams and call the winner of their closed contest the world champion. Even though it's 100% certain that one of them would win if the contest was open. It's the difference between being intended to encourage the widening of the sport, rather than keeping it a closed shop for those who are already good at it.

[b viswanathan]

Hey everyone, thanks for being so nice in responding. I felt concerned after I'd hit "post" as I didn't want to sound thoughtless or unkind; but it's an issue I've wrestled with, so I was hoping for great feedback - and got it!

Sunjoy, I totally understand about being conflicted as to "self-identifying" with two cultures. I'm always interested to read people who share cultural connections on how they feel when they become successful - Jhumpa Lahiri (the writer who recently won a Pulitzer for "Interpreter of Maladies" and is now having a movie made of "The Namesake") is someone with one foot in India and one in MA, and her conflicts are very sympathetic to me. I'm sure athletes can experience much of the same divisions, both in loyalties and in the choice of representation they make.

But I guess I'm not sure it's doing a service to someone who isn't really ready to go onto the main stage to compete for another country as a top level competitor. Yes, it gives her great exposure and experience. OTOH, doesn't she face a struggle to prove that she belongs in the top flight? Maybe she doesn't care, and would rather rack up the experience - if so, I guess it's a good thing she has the option to do so (although not totally fair to others who don't get to choose - but then who says life is fair?!).

Further, should India be able to get skaters to represent them this way? I find I'm highly conflicted about the thought of ice rinks being built in, say, Mumbai or Delhi - a super hot country, where people need basic support more perhaps than ice arenas! (unlike Japan, not particularly wealthy; and unlike China, not Communist, so not interested in state support of athletics) I'm also not crazy about the thought of their having athletes train elsewhere and then say they're representing India. I guess I find that all very strange. But then, there are Canadians who gain US citizenship to compete for us, and Japanese skaters who train here and skate for Japan; I guess it's more like "anything goes" these days than I have recognized...

Jazzpants, I don't know which I'd rather do. I suppose I'd choose based in part on my ability - if I knew I was an amazing skater, who had a real shot at showing my stuff in Nationals, perhaps I'd be very drawn to taking the opportunity to skate for India and go for the glory! But I also think of how much I feel a sense of patriotism - even in these dark days, that have shaken my Americanism to its very core - and I think it'd be a weird thing to do to the country that's taken my family in. I'm mean yeah, as Sunjoy says, countries and people do outsource, relocate, etc. for "business" reasons - but to change citizenship and declare loyalty to a country? I guess I take that pretty seriously (maybe more than some average citizens - they say the converted are the most fervent folks!), and I would want to believe I'd express that in my practices as well as my words...

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread with my musings!

BV

[Isk8NYC]

I give them so much credit for getting out there--that takes a lot of courage.Hear, Hear!
Someone pointed out how harrowing the warmup must have been for the Indian Pairs team, like a beginning skater on a Senior freestyle.

I think some extra ice time, rather than roller time, will help tremendously.
They were in over their head, and some of it MUST have been nerves. Hopefully, they'll get stronger and faster.

Here in the US, there are many rinks that are located inside multi-purpose facilities. In Texas, like Bombay, the shopping malls contain rinks. The buildings are air-conditioned anyway and the ice probably helps keep the building cool. India's poverty is still existing, but there's a real growth of middle-class. I have a good friend who has gone to Bombay to visit her DH's family several times in the last few years. The educational system has grown in that short time, white-collar jobs (thanks to US Outsourcing) have tripled, and more families have disposable income. An ice rink can provide entry-level jobs, helping to ease financial crises. Far from perfect, but getting better.

As for representing one country while living in another, it's epidemic. Some athletes come here to train because of their families, to go to school, others for better facilities, still others for the $$$ they can earn here. Unless each country or federation starts to reject ex-patriots, there's nothing one can do about that situation. I wonder what the other team members feel when the "golden child" comes to the competition and dominates due to their training abroad?

[b viswanathan]

Isk8,

Yes, I've gone "back" quite a few times in the last 10 years, and the changes in India, especially the cities, are amazing (my middle class family is doing very, very nicely, which is no surprise). Still, the AC isn't anything like ours (with the exception of a few 5-star venues), and it's awfully inefficient and probably environmentally unsound to create ice (especially year-round) in equatorial climes. I seriously doubt Al Gore would be a fan!

I also wonder what's going to happen in China. Will it be similar to the old Russian system of having state-supported training facilities that are super rigorous, and train star athletes from a very early age through their entire career? Is that what already exists? In a way, it's a great way to recruit and nurture innate talent. (Skating is so expensive, it'd be helpful for some.) But it also requires great dedication, often separation from home, and of course taxpayer support. I wonder if we could ever see it happen here (I know, I very much doubt it, too).

It'll be interesting to see how the sport evolves internationally...

BV


Hear, Hear!
Someone pointed out how harrowing the warmup must have been for the Indian Pairs team, like a beginning skater on a Senior freestyle.

I think some extra ice time, rather than roller time, will help tremendously.
They were in over their head, and some of it MUST have been nerves. Hopefully, they'll get stronger and faster.

Here in the US, there are many rinks that are located inside multi-purpose facilities. In Texas, like Bombay, the shopping malls contain rinks. The buildings are air-conditioned anyway and the ice probably helps keep the building cool. India's poverty is still existing, but there's a real growth of middle-class. I have a good friend who has gone to Bombay to visit her DH's family several times in the last few years. The educational system has grown in that short time, white-collar jobs (thanks to US Outsourcing) have tripled, and more families have disposable income. An ice rink can provide entry-level jobs, helping to ease financial crises. Far from perfect, but getting better.

As for representing one country while living in another, it's epidemic. Some athletes come here to train because of their families, to go to school, others for better facilities, still others for the $$$ they can earn here. Unless each country or federation starts to reject ex-patriots, there's nothing one can do about that situation. I wonder what the other team members feel when the "golden child" comes to the competition and dominates due to their training abroad?

[sunjoy]

Yeah, there is a reason why India can field excellent field-hockey players, and cricketers, along with decent runners, footballers, tennis players, etc, but not figure skaters. It's just so elitist, and outside of the few cold climates in India, impractical. What's so wrong with roller-sports?

I'm not against it, but I'm second-guessing my initial reaction to make a big deal of it.

OTOH, India's a huge country, and a few state sponsored sports programs for the elite certainly don't drain the budget compared to arms or health expenditures. The rinks themselves are probably private ventures right?

[Isk8NYC]

I hope I didn't give you the wrong impression - I don't think there's anything wrong with roller sports.

I knew that the pairs team were crossovers from roller to ice and it was apparent that they needed more ice time to really improve. Hard to find and impractical, I agree.

[b viswanathan]

Just curious: Are there many (any) elite skaters who have crossed over from roller/quad to figure skating?

[sunjoy]

Marina Kielmann (http://home.snafu.de/figureskating/kielmann/) is probably the most notable. She finished as high as 3rd at roller worlds, and 4th at ISU worlds. Indeed she finished top 10 in both in the same year!

Tara Lipinski and Johnny Weir both got their initial start on roller skates: Tara competed till age nine in roller (making it to Nationals at some skill level), although she started ice at age 6 as well; Weir practiced on rollers for a brief time and when he got to the first ice he was quickly doing jumps.

I'm sure there are others who are less famous. Happens more often in speed skating, with a few of the top world record holders and olympians in ice having first been inline champs.