Learning laybacks...

[Sonic]

Hi folks

Just started layback spins - boy are they scarey lol! :lol:

Does anyone have any tips/excercises for getting the balance?

Many thanks,

S xxx

[Team Arthritis]

All I can say is that I'm SOOOO glad that guys don't have to do laybacks!!! I just try spinning looking up and I fall over hard, ooof! Good luck
Lyle

[ouijaouija]

Though I am just beginning, laybacks for me are the best looking move, I hope I can learn to do them, despite being a guy?

[flo]

You can do them. My partner and I had side by side laybacks. Do a search - there's tons of suggestions.

[kateskate]

Practise spinning with your leg in position only first. That's how I started. Then try spinning doing an ordinary upright but looking up with your head only. It's a weird feeling and take a while to get used to the feeling. I try to fix on one point on the ceiling. If I focus on one thing that helps. Don't throw your head back - move it with control - you are less likely to overbalance that way.

I can't really remember all the little bits I did to learn it I'm afraid but I do remember that it feels weird for a while and then suddenly the leaning back thing does not feel so scary and you stop feeling weird!

Practise the layback position on the barrier. Hold on with one hand and lean back.

I also think leg, arms then head & shoulders when doing the whole spin. Leg moves first, then arms, then last head.

Sorry - not very well thought out answer there! But generally that stuff helped me!

Good luck.

[techskater]

I worked mine at the boards (with glass) to get my position consistent.

[Casey]

All I can say is that I'm SOOOO glad that guys don't have to do laybacks!!! I just try spinning looking up and I fall over hard, ooof!
Nobody has to do them, but when guys do them well, they look every bit as nice as when women do them. There's a guy at one of my rinks who only has single jumps I think (maybe one double) but wonderful layback and other spins. I think most men just lack the back flexibility for it.

[Mercedeslove]

This is the one spin I can't wait to learn. I have great back flexibility from gymnastics and have no problems getting the idea of going back off ice. It's a little tricky on one foot, but I'm getting better each day. Hopefully I'll soon add spinning too it.

[NickiT]

I find it really hard to get that arch in my back while I'm on one leg. I can do it fine on both and my former coach who used to try to teach me the layback couldn't understand it. I think it was a fear thing. I tend to do more of a sideways layback now but I'd love to do a proper layback.

Nicki

[Isk8NYC]

All I can say is that I'm SOOOO glad that guys don't have to do laybacks!!! I just try spinning looking up and I fall over hard, ooof! Good luck
LyleMy former pairs partner (just goofing around) used to do laybacks.
Badly, yes, but still in the layback position...we used to joke that he looked like he was 'flashing' the onlookers. LOL

BTW, Rohene Ward can do a layback that puts some women to shame.

Make sure you warm up properly before practicing laybacks. Off-ice stretching helps you learn to balance with your hips pushed forward and doing ten-second leg lifts to the side really strengthens.

On ice, stand by the boards (spinning foot about 5" away) and lift the free leg. Push your hips forward until they touch the boards. Hold and repeat a few times.

I've found that the closed-arm position is easiest to master in the actual spin. The arms and backbend happen AFTER the hips are positioned.

[Sonic]

Thanks for the tips people - really helpful.

S xxx

[flo]

Instead of thinking of arching your back - think hips forward. Your whole body will form a C, with yout head the top part and your free leg the bottom. I have a pic if you pm me your address.

or if this works:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a13/flopair/layback.bmp

[kayskate]

Tips for layback:
1. Don't allow your free leg to move to the front at the beginning of the spin. It must stay to the side or behind the body from the beginning.
2. Place arms over chest at first. Don't worry about curved ballet arms. Reaching up may throw you off balance or onto your toepick. Learn the lean before worrying about arm poses. Those come later.
3. Try to lean straight back. Push your hips out.
4. Abort uncentered attempts. You cannot learn a layback if your initial spin is uncentered.
5. Start w. an attitude spin. Get the leg to the side-back first before leaning. Lean to control this position. Plus you get an extra spin in the process.
6. Relax your eyes. Do not focus on anything on the ceiling it will only make you dizzy and destroy your balance. Look for a place to practice the layback where you are not directly under a light fixture.
7. Your knee bend in the initiating 3turn must be very deep to generate speed b/c you will not be pulling in much (except for arms) to build speed through the spin.
8. Enjoy the ride!

Hope this helps.
Kay
www.skatejournal.com

[flo]

Sounds good - but I do have my free leg in front at first. That way I get a good center, then go back. Also if the "feel' isn't right for a layback - I do another spin.

[LWalsh]

This is a little more advanced but worth thinking about...remember the speed in a layback comes differently than a normal spin. Normally you pull in arms and or legs to spin faster. To generate speed while in a layback position your free leg and opposing shoulder need to sqeeze towards each other.

Lwalsh

[daisies]

Sounds good - but I do have my free leg in front at first. That way I get a good center, then go back.
Same with me.

I also don't go straight back. I go slightly to the right and then adjust to center when I am all the way back.

[techskater]

Hey, that's I how do mine! Side and then adjust. So, we added the sideways leaning spin to the beginning of my layback.

[doubletoe]

Tips for layback:
1. Don't allow your free leg to move to the front at the beginning of the spin. It must stay to the side or behind the body from the beginning.

Kay
www.skatejournal.com

So how do you center the spin without the free leg coming to the front first?

[Sonic]

Hey, that's I how do mine! Side and then adjust. So, we added the sideways leaning spin to the beginning of my layback.

That's what I've got at the moment...a kinda sideways-leaning thing.

Thanks again for the tips everyone - the bits about the lean and pushing hip forward are particularly helpful.

S xxx

[kayskate]

So how do you center the spin without the free leg coming to the front first?

I hook all of my spins. it may help to practice just the spin w/ the free leg to the side first until you can center it. There is no reason why you must have free leg in front to center. It would be a rough way you do a camel and it is an extremely difficult camel combo. Center does not come from the free leg. It comes from the spin entrance and center of the body over the intiating 3turn. Knee bend must be very deep in the 3turn, then rise directly over the turn. You may make part of or 1rotation in the deep bend. Rising must be controlled. As an exercise, I had a coach who had me do this w/o use of free leg and w/ arms behind my back. It is a good way to understand your balance and how to work the entrance to the spin.

I suggested in my previous post not to allow free leg to go in front b/c moving it to the back later can throw you off balance. Plus (JMO), unless you are doing a combo, a layback does not start from a scratch-type spin. I personally do not care for the look of it. It is fine if it works as an exercise to help you learn to center your layback, but (again, MHO) skaters should learn to do a layback w/o this technique as soon as they are able. In the end, you will achieve a faster, stronger, prettier layback.

For those of you doing a side spin first, why not exaggerate this into a combo? Turn this into something special. Do a distinct side spin. Lean to the side and hold for 3-5 revs. Stretch your free leg and arms. Show off that pose! Then roll at the waist until you are straight back. You can work interesting arm positions to highlight the transition. I do a spin like this and it can be very dramatic. You can also hold the layback another 3-5 then do another side spin pose to finish things off. Makes a really nice combo.

Kay

[kateskate]

So how do you center the spin without the free leg coming to the front first?

Related to this and agreeing with you - doesn't Sasha Cohen bring her free leg forward before a layback? I don't bring it as forwards as much as she does but I do have my free leg as I would for an upright before doing a layback. Otherwise, as you say, I can't centre it

But that may just be me.

[saras]

doing these three things, in no particular order:

*rolling eyes up to back of head to initiate dropping the head back - this prevents the "turtle" attempts where you tuck your chin while dropping your head back
*start with arms out at side, and drop elbows while turning palms so that they face up to ceiling
*bend free from knee down

The first time I got one going it was *really* dizzying. After that - I learned to "tune out" watching the ceiling so it's not any more dizzying than any other spin

After I could do those three things together and well, I worked on pushing hips foward

Sara

[flo]

Good tips.
Also, I elongate my back (go up) first, then go back. I use the fancy straw example - the one with the kinks, or think of worms stretching, up and back.
Or the picking up a puppy from a playpen. First lift the puppy up to clear the pen, then to you for a hug. Whatever works.

[coolsk8ingirl]

If you are just beginning your layback spin, you can work on the turn out of your leg while spinning and not actually layback...just spin upright. If you are working on leaning backwards, then you can just leave your leg right next to the spinning one. If you are trying to do a layback and your arms are throwing you off balance when you bring them over your head, then you can also bring them into your heart or drop them down by your side with open shoulders.


:)

[Sessy]

My ballet teacher says first the shoulders loosen up and lean back, then the hips go forward without bending the knee you stand on, but always the shoulders first to the back, BEFORE you do anything else.
I'm still learning layback too.

[Sessy]

Related to this and agreeing with you - doesn't Sasha Cohen bring her free leg forward before a layback? I don't bring it as forwards as much as she does but I do have my free leg as I would for an upright before doing a layback. Otherwise, as you say, I can't centre it

But that may just be me.

We're taught to bring the free leg forward before the layback here in the Netherlands...

[CaraSkates]

We're taught to bring the free leg forward before the layback here in the Netherlands...

I also do my layback out of a open front scratch...I have very centered scratch spins 99% of the time (usually, if they aren't centered, I'm sick!) and this helps me center my layback. I was taught this way and it's really working for me - so far the layback is the easiest spin for me to learn/do! I hold the front scratch for 2-3 rotations then "deflate" into a layback with pretty arms. I've also been told to think of pushing the pelvis forward to keep from falling.

[kayskate]

Can anybody post a vid clip of a layback that starts from a front scratch that is not intended to be a combo? I personally cannot recall Sasha using this technique. Doing a layback in combo w/ a scratch spin is really hard. Priscilla Hill had an incredible one. She pulled a fast scratch then opened into a layback. Very unusual. Very cool too. Don't see it anymore. Maybe w/ the COP we will see more of these very hard creative combos.

Kay

[Sessy]

She's doing it from her leg up front as far as I can tell: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2H0j_BbLN8
Another one, kinda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBQlDXPf9tk
And I think this one too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHouS4KJCMY

I'm thinking this is European or Russian school or something, to do it like this.

You DONT pull the leg in when it's front like you would in a genuine scratch, it just sticks out front stretched out (like at the beginning of a scratch) before you eh... open up the hip and bring the leg to the back or whatever (not sure how to describe it well since I can rarely do it myself)

[techskater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QIrgOMyZdc&mode=related&search=

Sasha does it around the 1:59 mark

[CaraSkates]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=iYHqHJMX-1s
Here is my layback from an open scratch spin. My coach would be annoyed at this one - my free leg's toe isn't pointed!

[kayskate]

The Sasha spin does look like she starts from having the free leg in front. However, I was unable to pause to take a better look. I could not tell in the vids of the other skaters. When I skate today I will try a layback w/ my free leg forward and report back.

Kay

[kayskate]

Okay. I tried the Sasha version of the layback. i have studied the vid several times and I wonder if this version might count as a combo under the COP b/c she does a distinct forward upright spin w/ free leg held perpedicular to the ice for several revs before the layback.

I had to experiement w/ this a bit to get it to work and plan to write about the experience in detail on my site w/in the next few days. Will post the link. In short, you do not actually move the leg back from the forward position. Doing this throws the spin off center. In reality, you open the hip and allow the body to opne thus pushing the leg back. In other words, you allow the body to pivot while leaving the leg in position. It creates a very fast well-centered layback. Actually, after practicing this version, my personal layback that starts w/ the free leg to the side became super fast.

Very worthwhile skill. Glad I tried it. Now I have 2 cool spins for the price of 1.

Kay

[Sessy]

In reality, you open the hip and allow the body to opne thus pushing the leg back. In other words, you allow the body to pivot while leaving the leg in position.

Thanks for the tip!

[kateskate]

Okay. I tried the Sasha version of the layback. i have studied the vid several times and I wonder if this version might count as a combo under the COP b/c she does a distinct forward upright spin w/ free leg held perpedicular to the ice for several revs before the layback.

I had to experiement w/ this a bit to get it to work and plan to write about the experience in detail on my site w/in the next few days. Will post the link. In short, you do not actually move the leg back from the forward position. Doing this throws the spin off center. In reality, you open the hip and allow the body to opne thus pushing the leg back. In other words, you allow the body to pivot while leaving the leg in position. It creates a very fast well-centered layback. Actually, after practicing this version, my personal layback that starts w/ the free leg to the side became super fast.

Very worthwhile skill. Glad I tried it. Now I have 2 cool spins for the price of 1.

Kay

Interesting thanks. I look forward to reading in more detail

[techskater]

Okay. I tried the Sasha version of the layback. i have studied the vid several times and I wonder if this version might count as a combo under the COP b/c she does a distinct forward upright spin w/ free leg held perpedicular to the ice for several revs before the layback.


No, it's only a 1 position spin because she doesn't pull in (in the same way that an upright open position for a couple revs at the end of a spin as the finish is considered as not "part" of the spin). The revs at the beginning in the upright position don't count, though when getting to her 8 required revolutions for the layback.

[kayskate]

Finally got around to adding my layback experience to my web site. You can read it by clicking here:
www.skatejournal.com/current.html
Entry is called "Layback musings".

Kay

[lov2sk8]

your hips go first , then everything else follows. also make sure you relax your neck it helps you get the final position. I also agree leg to the side, it just takes time to get used to.