U.S. Nationals Ladies SP - SPOILERS!

[Isk8NYC]

This thread may contain spoilers.

[Lark]

I would have had the Ladies in the following order:

1 - Beatrisa Liang - now in 2nd
2 - Emily Hughes - now in 3rd
3 - Kimmie Meisner - now in 1st :roll:
4 - Rachel Flatt - now in 6th
5 - Alissa Czisney - now in 4th
6 - Katy Taylor - now in 5th

I am really angry that Meisner was given full credit for a 3/3 when her 3toe was cheated by nearly half a revolution. YET, Rachel Flatt was marked down to a 3/2 when she completely rotated both jumps! I am glad it sparked a bit of a controversy, and I hope that it will not be dropped.

I loved Rachel Flatts 2axel. It was very fast and low just like Tara Lipinskis!

I was really excited to see such a "finished" quality in a lot of the Ladies performances. Not so much "junior" looks as I am used to seeing.

[Mel On Ice]

I had it:

Hughes
Liang
Meissner
Taylor
Czisny
Flatt

IMO, Flatt's 2nd jump in the combination had nearly 3/4 of a rotation ON THE ICE, therefore cutting it to a double. I also thought Kim's 2nd jump should have been downgraded as well.

Hughes sold me on everything she did; Liang too. Meissner - blah. Taylor skated a little too frenetic for easy flowing music. Alyssa... coulda been up there.

[Schmeck]

I fell asleep waiting for the coverage, and missed Hughes' skate! :roll: From the replays, she looked fine, but replays don't show everything, so I'll have to wait until it shows up on Youtube or something...

I woke up in time to hear Button and gang discussing her skate, and then Meissner was on. Cautious, a bit off on some spins, but the 3/3 made all of the difference. It wasn't perfect either, but I would have called it, and expected some -GOE.

Liang's skate was the highlight of what I saw (yes, I kept falling asleep, once while watching Xgames during commercial break) although I was impressed by Taylor's improvements.

I'd have to give an EWWWWWW to Flatt's axel, if it was Lipinski-ish. Didn't see her skate, so I can't say if I thought it was low, but jumps are supposed to have a nice arc UP into the air that reflects the curve of the edge on the ice. Low, rollerskate style axels rot...

[Lark]

I'd have to give an EWWWWWW to Flatt's axel, if it was Lipinski-ish. Didn't see her skate, so I can't say if I thought it was low, but jumps are supposed to have a nice arc UP into the air that reflects the curve of the edge on the ice. Low, rollerskate style axels rot...

I just loved Lipinskis axel, and Flatts reminded me of Taras. I LOVE "low, rollerskate style axels"; to me, they have punch! LOL

[Lark]

Also, am I the only one who would have put Czisney in first is she had landed a clean 3lutz? I thought her presentation was OUTSTANDING!

[daisies]

IMO, Flatt's 2nd jump in the combination had nearly 3/4 of a rotation ON THE ICE, therefore cutting it to a double.

I saw it differently. IMO, she looked completely rotated but had a late check-out, which sometimes is mistaken for a cheat because the skater is still in a closed position on the ice.

I thought Alissa Czisny was gorgeous. Too bad about the popped lutz.

[MQSeries]

I'm not sure how Bebe will hold up in the long. She has a history of strong shorts and bombing the longs. Would be great if she makes the World Team.

[Isk8NYC]

YouTube: Meissner (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yEaatwjnpo)

[froggy]

I also think it was unfair that Flatt's 3toe was downgraded even the announcers (dick button and peggy) were shocked, it was far better than meissner's 3toe-in slow motion you can see how meissner was already facing forward on her toe whereas flatt did not cheat it. s/t is definately fishy on how they came up with that scoring. bebe did a great job I just hope she does well in the LP. I like meissner personality wise off the ice, but she really needs to work on her artistry, hughs, flatt, and bebe and even katy I feel did better on the artistry than miessner, I think the judges have already in their head who they want to medal.

[Mel On Ice]

I saw it differently. IMO, she looked completely rotated but had a late check-out, which sometimes is mistaken for a cheat because the skater is still in a closed position on the ice.

I thought Alissa Czisny was gorgeous. Too bad about the popped lutz.

Rachael's landing looked good, but the takeoff is where I saw the flaw. She rotated on her pick before actually going up in the air.

I posted late last night, I correct my above standings and would flip-flop Rachael and Alyssa.

anyone know what came of her coach's request for a review? It is not outside the realm of possibility to have the scores reworked: they did in Japan last year, didn't they?

[icedancer2]

What a great show for these ladies! I thought everyone skated great -- I would have put Emily and Bebe over Kimmie, but, well, whatever...

I really liked that they showed a LOT of the skaters, the up-and-comers, people to watch out for in the future, etc. This is what women's skating needs since we don't have to watch those other two any more (yea!)...

Very exciting. Can't wait til tomorrow.
:)

[daisies]

... the takeoff is where I saw the flaw. She rotated on her pick before actually going up in the air.
I disagree. But that's what makes the world go 'round! :)

[Debbie S]

Rachael's landing looked good, but the takeoff is where I saw the flaw. She rotated on her pick before actually going up in the air. The problem is that so many skaters' toe loops are really toe axels (some more egregious than others), a lot of skaters would have their toe loops downgraded if the judges applied that rule to everyone. I don't think Rachael's takeoff was any worse than the others. I don't think you can downgrade Rachael's w/o also downgrading Kimmie's....but as Kurt Browning was trying to point out in his post-event analysis (and not very clearly, I might add), the only way a jump is going to get downgraded is if the caller thinks there's something wrong with it and decides to check the replay.

Since Kimmie's combo was on a normally-shaped curve and she appeared to take off and land in the right places, the caller likely didn't replay it. However, Rachael had that wonky landing on her lutz (plus an odd entrance that looked flutzed to me) so the caller decided to take a closer look - I suspect they were looking at the lutz as much as the toe loop. In the new system, the judges can't make their own decisions about what a jump was - they can only give the execution grades. That to me is a big problem with the new system b/c skaters get a double whammy - downgraded jumps and bad execution grades - how else does Rachael Flatt end up lower than Alissa Czisny, who popped a jump? Remember this was the SP, and while Alissa skated great otherwise, Rachael wasn't exactly a slouch in the spin and the presentation depts.

If a skater falls on a 3 lutz, for example, and the lutz is underrotated before the fall, then the skater is given "credit" for falling on a 2 lutz, meaning a lower point value and then bad GOEs on top of that. But the skater wasn't trying a 2 lutz, and if he/she had, they likely wouldn't have fallen on it. Why should skaters be penalized for both the fall and the quality of the jump before the fall? It just seems that there should be a way to recognize the difficulty of jumps being attempted - not that skaters shouldn't receive penalties for mistakes, but they should at least be reasonable and more accurately reflect what they attempted.

[NickB]

If a skater falls on a 3 lutz, for example, and the lutz is underrotated before the fall, then the skater is given "credit" for falling on a 2 lutz, meaning a lower point value and then bad GOEs on top of that. But the skater wasn't trying a 2 lutz, and if he/she had, they likely wouldn't have fallen on it. Why should skaters be penalized for both the fall and the quality of the jump before the fall? It just seems that there should be a way to recognize the difficulty of jumps being attempted - not that skaters shouldn't receive penalties for mistakes, but they should at least be reasonable and more accurately reflect what they attempted.

But the quality of the jump before the fall does matter, both in coming up with a "base mark" under the old system and a GOE with the new system (a jump would have to be really strong otherwise not to end up with a -3 overall but it is allowed). It's one thing to have a really high beautiful, rotated jump and slip of the landing. A jump like that should certainly get more credit than a jump where a skater comes nowhere close to completing the revolutions. Particularly when skaters are doing double axel or triple attempts that are nowhere close to complete, I don't think they should get much of any credit for putting in jumps that it looks like they just can't do well at all (of course everyone occasionally is off and has mistakes, but even if you know the skater *can* do the jump you can't pre-judge that and have to go by how they execute it in the program). Falling on a very cheated double axel really isn't any better than falling on a single axel as far as I'm concerned, and certainly LANDING a nice single axel is better than falling on a cheated double. While it's true that if a senior skater, say, had only attempted a single axel/double lutz/whatever they probably wouldn't have fallen on it, that's really irrelevant, and part of the risk of attempting a more difficult jump is that it might not pay off. (The intentional single axel or double jump argument doesn't really apply for a senior short program since neither of those elements would meet the requirements and would get -3, but in the free skate at all levels and short program at the lower levels it would).

[Michigansk8er]

I agree with Mel's placements. IMO Kimmie was also gifted on her traveling spins. I love Emily & Bebe's energy!

[Artemis]

I agree with Nick. And it's certainly been the aim of the way the judging system is structured: to reward the risk of actually going for the big jump (and not just writing in your program notes what you're planning).

Besides, a lot of skaters will instinctively downgrade their jumps rather than fall. And most of the time the result is that they don't fall. So if the jump that they actually do complete is of good quality, it will get good GOE.

[Alexa]

I agree with Meissner and Liang on top. I am just not a fan of Emily's and do not enjoy watching her skate. I agree she did well in the SP, but her presentation does not do anything for me. I always feel like she looks heavy on the ice...not as in fat, but just that all of her movements appear labored and heavy.

[Schmeck]

For the skaters I did see (remember, I kept nodding off :roll: ) I thought all of their spins travelled - no one seems to be able to keep a spin centered when they are acting as contortionists, and doing multiple change-foot stuff too. I hate the points system for spins...:frus: Now, it seems like it's OK for a spin to travel, as long as ungainly, ugly positions are being achieved at the same time, LOL!

[Samskate]

Does anyone here know if a young skater named Kylie Gleason was shown? She is 15th after the short. The reason I'm asking is because she's originally from the Pittsburgh area. I forgot about ESPN2 showing the ladies short the other night.:x

[Schmeck]

I don't think they showed Kylie' skate - she skates for SCOB now, right? My hubby recognized her during one of the 'fluff' pieces showing the skaters arriving.

[Alexa]

I think they did show Kylie....it was late in the broadcast. I taped it and watched it the next evening and I think she was one of the later skaters.

[Alexa]

For the skaters I did see (remember, I kept nodding off :roll: ) I thought all of their spins travelled - no one seems to be able to keep a spin centered when they are acting as contortionists, and doing multiple change-foot stuff too. I hate the points system for spins...:frus: Now, it seems like it's OK for a spin to travel, as long as ungainly, ugly positions are being achieved at the same time, LOL!

I agree...I miss the spins we used to see. I so dislike seeing them have to do so many positions--it has no flow at all. And I am so tired of the biellman. I used to like that spin, but not since we see it so often now.

[NoVa Sk8r]

Does anyone here know if a young skater named Kylie Gleason was shown? She is 15th after the short. The reason I'm asking is because she's originally from the Pittsburgh area. I forgot about ESPN2 showing the ladies short the other night.:xYes; she was 18th to skate and was shown right before Alissa Czisny.

They showed a piece on her mother, Suna Murray, who won the bronze at senior Nats in 1971 and '72. Suna was performing a show number to "Swan Lake" at Madison Square Garden, and she tripped over some curtains that had been placed on the ice only for the actual performance, not for the dress rehearsal. SHe was a good sport about it when they asked her about it.

[Schmeck]

Yes; she was 18th to skate and was shown right before Alissa Czisny.

That explains why I didn't see her - I was asleep! :frus:

Note to self - next time don't forget to set the VCR to record before getting comfy on the couch...

[NoVa Sk8r]

Remember, ESPN will be rebroadcasting a bunch of the events:
http://spokane2007.usfigureskating.org/TVSchedule.aspx

[techskater]

Someone posted some of the skaters' vids on USFSA discussion board in the video request section. Verzend.be has been slow for file sharing today, but if you are patient you can get 'em.

[Samskate]

I think Kylie does skate for SCOB now. I'm sorry I missed seeing her, but I did worse than fall asleep! I forgot the darned thing was on TV at all!

Anyone have an opinion on her skating/future?

[b viswanathan]

Kylie does skate for SCOB, and I have the great pleasure of seeing her train there. She is not only a gorgeous skater, but she's also one of the sweetest young women I've ever met. In the competitive world of elite skaters, she and Scott Smith (also at SCOB) are outstanding at sportsmanship - and just plain niceness - and I have to say, I really respect that.

Suna Murray still coaches at SCOB and at Pittsburgh. She's a fantastic coach (even with "charity" cases like me)! She also placed 10th at the 1972 Olympics, by the way, at the age of 16. She then went straight to Harvard!

I'm sorry I missed Kylie's skate, but especially sorry I missed the interview with Suna. If anyone were inclined, it'd be neat to see clips on youtube...

[NoVa Sk8r]

I'm sorry I missed Kylie's skate, but especially sorry I missed the interview with Suna. If anyone were inclined, it'd be neat to see clips on youtube...http://youtube.com/watch?v=mwBP81TaTAU

[Samskate]

b, thank you for your comments about Kylie and her mother and also the young man. I'll certainly watch for both Kylie and Scott Smith in the future. There was a nice article about Kylie in the Pittsburgh newspaper. It mentioned that her mother coaches and had been in the Olympics.:)

[b viswanathan]

Nova, thank you so much for the youtube vid; and Samskate, thanks to you for the comment.

Oh my gosh, that was a shocker!! Suna, though, is about gracious and poised as ever. She's such a good sport (not sure I would've found that as easy to handle as she seemed to), which is typical. Plus, she's the exact opposite of the cliched mean skating mom - she really does believe in Kylie, and supports her both in skating and education. As y'all can tell, I admire them both.

Another shout-out to Stephen Carriere from SCOB, who placed really high (around 8th) in his first time at Nationals this year. He's another great kid.

You guys should keep an eye out for Michelle Boulos in the next year or 2. She trains at SCOB, and is another major young talent. She has that very balletic, expressive style that I think is mesmerizing. Not to disparage too much, but there aren't a whole lot of American women right now who have that whole package (not just jumps/spins, but also grace and character).

BV