MITF Testing - Adults vs. Kids

[Isk8NYC]

I recently watched a MITF test session at another rink. All the tests were Adult Silver/Gold or Pre-Juv/Juvenile. I asked for permission to watch it, and sat quietly making notes.

Here's what I observed from the stands:

I came in during the kids' warmup, but it seemed longer to me than the adults' session. (I'm sure I'm wrong; it must be preset and timed?) Maybe that's because there were more skaters on the ice for the kids' session.

In any case, the adults definitely needed more warmup time. You could see in their knee bends and crossovers that they weren't skating their best.

The kids were more nervous, and looked to their coaches for support.
Most of them had family/friends with them.
The adults had a coach, at most.

The judges really, really tried to help the skaters that were just a bit off. The reskates were requested in a friendly manner, and specific instructions were given. (ie. "Can you do that three-turn pattern without touching down, please?")

You could tell (both children and adult) which skaters hadn't passed outright; the judges didn't ask for a reskate if the skater messed up multiple patterns. All but one of the reskates seemed much better; one judge even remarked out loud - "Thank you, that was so much better." I guess a reskate means they're trying to help you pass, right?

All of the skaters who didn't pass were good sports about it, not begrudging the pass others received.
Still, they were disappointed. Not knowing anyone personally, I didn't know if it was a lack of preparation or just an off day that caused the retest. It made me realize why some people wait so long to test these patterns. It's heartbreaking and expensive to get a retest.

Most of the kids seemed to realize that the judges watch the warmups and the stroking to/from each moves pattern. They skated to their starts with big, clean pushes and nice crossovers.

Several of the adults didn't seem to know that they were being watched. One adult actually skated to his first pattern doing toe pushes on every stroke. This hits home with me -- my old coach used to say that the judging begins when you get to the building. You never know who's in the next bathroom stall and overhears you complaining. The judges "pre-judge" during the warmups, which can help; someone recently mentioned that the judges asked for a reskate of something that she blew during the actual test, but nailed on the warmup. Finally, the judges deserve some respect. I only watched the tail end of the session and I was very cold; they must have been frozen. Yet, they were very friendly and nice throughout.

One last note: almost every young skater finished each pattern with a nice t-stop, paused, and then skated to their next pattern's starting position in a straight line. They then waited for the judges to look up and the ref to nod at them. The adults (remember, these weren't beginner skaters) tended to finish with a weak stop, stand on both feet, and waited before going to the next start. (With a few weak little pushes and crossovers.) One adult skater actually wandered about for a bit, trying to remember where to stop.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just giving you my fly-on-the-wall observations, good and bad.

Suggestions:
Make sure you prepare well.
You need to know the order of test patterns and how to lay them out so the judges can see them.
One young skater started in a corner close to the judges, so they missed most of her starting pushes.
Result? Reskate. START OVER THERE! LOL
Plan out your starting and stopping points, so you know exactly where you need to go next.

Do every stroke with clean, strong pushes, and point your toe. Correctness wins over speed, but speed really does help.
STAY DOWN ON YOUR KNEES.
Many of adults (myself included) tended to "bob" up and down on the knee doing strokes and crossovers.
Try to keep your arms from flapping, too.

Crossovers should be done properly, even if they're not on the test pattern. (I saw a lot of bad crossovers from kids and adults in the "intro steps.")

Start each practice session with a good off-ice warmup, then do a 2-minute on-ice warmup, then run through the test patterns as if you were actually testing. This way, you're rehearsed for the actual test, able to use your on-ice warmup time well, and (most importantly) you'll skate better!

Hope this helps someone!

[dbny]

Most of the kids seemed to realize that the judges watch the warmups and the stroking to/from each moves pattern. They skated to their starts with big, clean pushes and nice crossovers.

Several of the adults didn't seem to know that they were being watched.

One last note: almost every young skater finished each pattern with a nice t-stop, paused, and then skated to their next pattern's starting position in a straight line. They then waited for the judges to look up and the ref to nod at them. The adults (remember, these weren't beginner skaters) tended to finish with a weak stop, stand on both feet, and waited before going to the next start. (With a few weak little pushes and crossovers.) One adult skater actually wandered about for a bit, trying to remember where to stop.


IMO there is only one reason for these differences. The coaches prepared the children in detail but not the adults. My former coach prepared all of her skaters with exactly this kind of information, even going so far as to tell us never to indicate in our faces or posture that we had made a mistake, as a judge might have missed seeing it the mistake. Re the strong T-stop, I have noticed that adults onset skaters in general have trouble with that. An alternative might be to do a tight two foot curve (one foot in front of the other) to slow down first, and cruise into a stop that way.

[Isk8NYC]

The coaches prepared the children in detail but not the adults. Again, I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em. I am NOT looking to place blame, I just hoped to open people's eyes.

I didn't know any of the coaches, judges, or skaters, so I can't say whether or not the coaches prepared the kids better and left the adults on their own. In one case, I think the adult skater coached him/herself through the test.

It's too bad there weren't any coaches with BOTH adults AND children testing. That would have helped answer the question.

[Debbie S]

Thanks for posting your observations, Isk8NYC.

As far as the warm-up time goes, I think there is a suggested warm-up time for each test (there is a test chair's manual that the USFSA puts out) but clubs can deviate from that depending on time available and other issues. My home club follows the USFSA guidelines to the letter, pretty much; however, I've seen test schedules (and observed tests) at other clubs, and occasionally, the warm-up time has been a few minutes less. For example, the suggested warm-up time for Bronze MIF (same as Pre-Juv and probably other tests of similar length) is 8 minutes, but other clubs sometimes only give 6 minutes - but they also cut down warm-up times for the kid tests, too - around here, I've never noticed kids getting more warm-up time than the adults, unless the test requires more. The higher-level MIF tests (Novice and up) do get more warm-up time, I believe - I assume b/c of the amount of moves/length of test and complexity of each move.

I was only asked for a reskate on 1 test and that was my Bronze FS test. It was pretty obvious that I'd get asked b/c I 2-footed the loop and it was the only mistake I'd made. There was only 1 judge and it was a low-key test session - single-paneled tests only, meaning Pre-Prelim, Prelim, Pre-Bronze, Bronze - and I think the judge was in an encouraging mood - lol. She motioned me over as soon as I skated out of my ending pose and said something like "I know you can do this loop jump b/c I saw you do it in the warm-up", with a smile, and told me what to do (go over and talk to my coach, and then I could warm it up once, etc) and said again "I know you can do this." It was kind of funny, b/c the conversation took a bit longer than your average reskate request, and after the test, the people watching from the lobby asked me what we were talking about that took so long - lol. I did land the loop and pass. :)

I was never asked for a reskate on MIF, but at 2 of my tests, there was a bit of conversation going on between the judges at the end, whereas the other times, they just looked at each other once and that was it. One of those 2 tests, I passed, and the other I didn't - each time, the panel was split, so I assume it gets more complicated if there is disagreement...although I think the rules say that judges can't actually converse about their scoring or results.

About the retries...sometimes the nerves take over and cause you to do things you don't normally do in practice - in the case of my 2 Bronze MIF retries, I leaned a bit too far forward and ended up being very scratchy. And my legs shook a few times which made me wobbly on some of the BI edge holds on the back perimeter stroking and power 3's.

I think adults find it harder to do T-stops, or any stops, than the kids. Probably the same comfort and natural movement issues that apply to adults doing other skating moves compared to the kids. At the clubs in my area, I notice that more testers (kids and adults) tend to glide out of each move rather than stop at the end. Maybe it depends on the coach - my coach is one who prefers her students to glide out, to show power and flow, especially on the moves where power/continuous flow is a focus.

You're right about the judges looking at everything, but I don't think that intro or ending steps make or break a test - for example, I saw one girl fall doing a T-stop at the end of one of her 8-step patterns on the Juv MIF test. She was shaken and a little upset (probably more embarrassed than hurt), but her coach calmed her down and she went on to the skate the rest of the moves well and passed w/o a reskate. After all, the actual steps on the 8-step were fine. I do agree that as much effort should be put into intro and ending steps as with the actual move, b/c you want to give a confident, polished impression to the judges at all times.

[vesperholly]

At the clubs in my area, I notice that more testers (kids and adults) tend to glide out of each move rather than stop at the end. Maybe it depends on the coach - my coach is one who prefers her students to glide out, to show power and flow, especially on the moves where power/continuous flow is a focus.
This is what I've done on all my moves tests - show a "finished" position like a landing position with a nice long edge held and arms out.

[jenlyon60]

When judges chat at the end of a skater's test, it generally means they are asking if anyone else on the panel wants to ask the skater to reskate an element.

At the test sessions at my home club, our MIF/FS test chair runs the test session and will look at us to confirm whether we are going to ask for any reskates.

Often everyone is in agreement as to what they would like re-skated (if there is to be a re-skate), but sometimes different judges will want to see different elements and it can take a couple seconds to come to agreement as to do we want to see element X or element Y on the MIF test. For the FS tests it's usually very clear to everyone on the panel if something needs a reskate (fall on a jump/spin, or drastically fewer than required revolutions on spins).

By the time most skaters get to the higher tests (and especially the higher level FS tests) they will know when they finish if they can expect to be asked for a reskate of an element.

I try not to consciously watch the skaters on warm-up. Often I'll be finishing comments on the paperwork from the previous tests. And I definitely try not to let what I see in warm-up affect my judging of the skater's actual performance of the test.

On managing warm-ups, I do find that a lot of newer adult testers don't necessarily manage their warm-ups as well as the kids. I've noticed this even for myself. What I have done in the past before a test or competition is to have my coach choreograph my warm-up, and go through a practice warm-up so I know exactly what I can get done in that 4-6 minutes. There's an art to using a warm-up efficiently I think.

[Isk8NYC]

I was only asked for a reskate on 1 test and that was my Bronze FS test. It was pretty obvious that I'd get asked b/c I 2-footed the loop and it was the only mistake I'd made. Because my own skating was ISI, the testing was different; you did every element on its own up to three times and the best one was used for the test. Then, you skated the program and the same "three chance" rule applied to each element.

Here's a question for "Judge Jen" -- let's say you have a freestyle program with a loop jump. It's your weakest element and you don't always land it cleanly. If the program had the loop in it at two different times, which one would be judged? If a skater had a not-so-good first attempt, but later completed it successfully, would that save them a reskate on that element?

How many reskates are allowed per test? (MITF vs. Freestyle?)

[jenlyon60]

On MIF, 1 element may be reskated at the judges' request. Normally in my club the skater is not given a chance to "warm-up" the MIF to be reskated, but is allowed to talk to their coach briefly. We try on the reskate for the MIF to explain what we would like to see different (or for example, if we want to see only 1 direction) so that the skater and their coach know what we're looking for. Normally we won't ask for a reskate on MIF unless reskating the element at higher quality will bump up the mark for that element and enable the skater to pass the test.

on FS, 2 separate elements may be reskated. For FS, the skater can elect to do a "warm-up" of the element then the actual reskate, but they must let the judges know that they are doing a warm-up. Also, if they elect to do a warm-up and notify the judges that that's what they're doing, do the element successfully in the warm-up, then blow the element in the "real mccoy", it is not supposed to count, because there is only supposed to be 1 chance to perform the actual reskated element. Having said all that, I've seen various interpretations of this rule over the years, though.

For your other question, I would probably count the correctly executed element. I can't give a definite answer because it depends on how the rest of the program is skated. A skater is allowed to add extra elements without penalty on a USFS freeskate test program Preliminary and higher (Pre-Preliminary FS being a not-to-music test).

Of course, then there's a situation like in the USFS Novice freeskate, where one of the required elements is a 2Loop, and another required element is a double jump-double jump combo. Say a skater bombed the first 2Loop (meant to be the solo 2Loop), was short of required rotations on the camel-back camel, and then landed a 2Loop meant to be the 1st half of the combo but its a shaky landing and the 2nd half of the combo doesn't happen. That's 3 elements missed, so no chance for reskate.

[Debbie S]

Here's a question for "Judge Jen" ...(snip)...If the program had the loop in it at two different times, which one would be judged? If a skater had a not-so-good first attempt, but later completed it successfully, would that save them a reskate on that element?

How many reskates are allowed per test? (MITF vs. Freestyle?)I'm not Judge Jen ;) , but I believe that as long as an element is successfully completed at least once in an FS program, it counts and an ealier mistake on that element doesn't matter. I've seen plenty of tests where the coach will have a skater do an element twice (the axel in Juv FS, for example) to give them 2 chances to do it and get it right. For my Bronze FS test, I thought about trying to put the loop in twice, or having a contingency plan if I messed up the first one (put another loop in in one spot and do another jump somewhere else) but that would have required putting my toe loop in a spot where I had never done a jump before in the program in comp, so I decided to just have the loop in once and if I messed up, I'd just do it in the reskate. And I figured if I made changes in my program on the fly, that would increase my chances of messing up more elements.

In MIF tests, you can reskate 1 move and on FS tests, 2 elements. So basically, on a MIF test, if you make mistakes on 2 moves, you probably won't get to reskate anything, unless you've been marked above the passing average on another move - the reskate is only asked for if it would change the overall result from a retry to a pass, so you really need to be within a tenth of the passing total.

[Debbie S]

LOL, Jen, we replied at the same time!

Say a skater bombed the first 2Loop (meant to be the solo 2Loop), was short of required rotations on the camel-back camel, and then landed a 2Loop meant to be the 1st half of the combo but its a shaky landing and the 2nd half of the combo doesn't happen. That's 3 elements missed, so no chance for reskate.Hmmm, interesting. I would think that would be 2 elements missed, b/c the first 2 loop could have been meant to be part of the combo, and the second 2 loop could have been the solo jump (since the judges would have no way of knowing). Then that would mean that the combo and the spin combo were the only missed elements. Then again, if the solo 2 loop was cheated or 2-footed, then I guess that would be another missed element.

Of course, if the skater's elements are shaky enough that they make that many mistakes, it's justified that the judges wouldn't consider it a passing test.

[jenlyon60]

LOL, Jen, we replied at the same time!

Hmmm, interesting. I would think that would be 2 elements missed, b/c the first 2 loop could have been meant to be part of the combo, and the second 2 loop could have been the solo jump (since the judges would have no way of knowing). Then that would mean that the combo and the spin combo were the only missed elements. Then again, if the solo 2 loop was cheated or 2-footed, then I guess that would be another missed element.

Of course, if the skater's elements are shaky enough that they make that many mistakes, it's justified that the judges wouldn't consider it a passing test.


In my example, for the Novice FS test, the skater is required to do

2Lo
2T
2S

as solo jumps

double-double combo

solo spin with 6 revs in position (camel, sit or layback)

camel to back camel (min 4 revs each foot in position)

combo spin with 1 change of foot and 1 change of position (min 5 revolutions per foot)

Straight line footwork sequence consisting of steps and turns in the field

connecting moves etc. throughout.


On the test, the skater attempts solo 2Lo and significantly underrotates. Then later in the program the skater falls on a 2Lo.
Skater later attempts 2Sal and significantly underrotates plus has very little height

All other elements are completed.

At the end of the test, skater has 1 missing element and 2 seriously flawed elements, and would most likely not be asked to reskate anything, and the test would be retried.

Note: By the time a skater gets to Novice level, it is expected that the jumps and spins are well executed (especially since if the skater is a competitive skater, s/he has probably been doing double jumps since at least the Pre-Juv level, if not the Preliminary level, in competition).

For the Novice freeskate test, the guidance at the top of the test form states: "The preciseness of the footwork should be nearly faultless, body motions well timed with the music, and the flow and power very good in all free skating elements (jumps, spins, as well as connecting steps)."

[doubletoe]

For my Adult Gold FS test, I put two axels in my program in case I missed one, and it's a good thing I did, since I fell on the first one and I had already used up my 2 reskates on stupid stuff! Since I landed the second axel and picked up the other 2 elements on the re-skate, they passed me.

As for MIF test warmups, there is not enough time to warm up every one of the moves, since many of the tests take about 15 minutes to skate. I just pick out the specific patterns, lobes and/or directions I have the most trouble with, and warm those up (I usually plan it before hand to minimize wasted time). Also, it's a good idea to warm up the beginning of the very first move, since that's when your nerves will probably be working against you the most.

[Bill_S]

As for MIF test warmups, there is not enough time to warm up every one of the moves...

True indeed! I warm up much more slowly than the kids do, and I've found the warmup times for testing vastly insufficient for me to get "into" the ice for even basic stroking, let alone getting through all the elements.

It's just plain old fashioned preparedness that gets me through the tests, but the short warmup doesn't allow me to perform my best. It's disappointing to be able to sail through test elements in practice, and then perform at a lesser level in tests.

If I've skated earlier in a day, I can hit the ice the second time almost in full stride. Unfortunately I've never found a way to do that before testing or I'd do a public session, etc. somewhere to warm up before going to test.

[froggy]

I recently watched a MITF test session at another rink. All the tests were Adult Silver/Gold or Pre-Juv/Juvenile. I asked for permission to watch it, and sat quietly making notes.

I see your from NYC and I'm also from the area, would you mind posting or PM me the rink and skating club for the test session that you observed, I'm looking to test this year and this info would be good to have to see what they want (ie: t-stop).

[lov2sk8]

All the adult skaters had the same coach, she was at the boards. I guess adults ask less questions.

[Isk8NYC]

Lov2Sk8 and I ran into each other at the session, so she actually knows the people. I'm trying to be discreet, in case one or more of the adults is a SF member/lurker. That's also why I don't want to post too many details.

I believe that the t-stops vs. glides is partially the coaches' choices. Our students test at 3-4 different clubs in NJ, and all the students (adults, too) are instructed to do the t-stop on the lower patterns and the glide out on the higher levels (pre-juv and up). Mind you, I've only realized this since observing this test session.

All the younger skaters executed the patterns more or less the same. There was one girl who started in an odd place and did the first few patterns in the reverse order than everyone else. There was also a girl with really, really strange and rushed entrances/exits. She also had consistent toe pushes and sloppy crossovers.

Lov2sk8 - I'll leave the last-minute details to you about your own testing. I thought it was very brave. *chuckles*
I didn't see the adults' coach put any kids on the ice for that test session; I think I would have noticed but do you know if the coach had any pre-juv/juv MITF student test as well? Do you think the younger students would have had more or less "scripting" and preparation?

[phoenix]

I believe that the t-stops vs. glides is partially the coaches' choices. Our students test at 3-4 different clubs in NJ, and all the students (adults, too) are instructed to do the t-stop on the lower patterns and the glide out on the higher levels (pre-juv and up). Mind you, I've only realized this since observing this test session.

On some of the higher level moves the long glide out is actually still part of the exercise; ie, a requirement. It shows control at high speed.

[jenlyon60]

Yes. Definitely for both the Intermediate and Junior power crossover circles. In fact for the Junior power crossover circles, the skater normally glides with full extension to the other end of the rink.

[Team Arthritis]

yeh these are deceptive! After twisting and torquing then dancing along as fast as your feet will fly you have to hollllld a flat exit - no edge!8O
Well, I suppose I don't really have to worry about passing these, LOL, byt coach says this is a must exercise for everybody.http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/transport/bigwheels.gif (http://www.thesmilies.com)
Lyle

[Summerkid710]

On the topic of having your friends and family there, I prefer to have just one or two people.

I skated as a kid (got through Bronze Dance, Juvenile free and 1st Figures Test plus ISI FS6). At age 30, I was grandfathered up to start with Intermediated Moves. I had the whole crew there for that test -- coach, BF, mom and dad. I was so freakin nervous with everyone there. I hadn't taken a US test in 13 years. I fell on the brackets in the field sequence right in front of the judges. I had never fallen doing the brackets EVER. The rest of the patterns were a bit scratchy as well so I didn't pass. I didn't deserve to -- I was prepared but nerves got the better of me.

On the next go-round for Intermediate, I didn't want anyone there. Just me and coach. Passed with no reskates.

On Novice moves, just coach and Dad came. I did not pass but it was close. I knew I had blown two of the patterns (Running 3's were scratchy and Bracket3Brackets were uneven) so there was no reskate.

It didn't help that I was third in my group. Basically, I had the 4 or 5 minutes of warmup and then had to wait about 25 minutes for my test to start. We were single paneled and the other girls had reskates. The Novice test is a bit of a marathon and there's only so much figeting to keep your legs warm you can do.

My point is that sometimes it's good to have a cheering section (well, waiting in the lobby for you) for support and then sometimes, you need to focus and meet them out for dinner later. I don't think it's necessarily an adult thing. I do wish the warmups were a bit closer to when you skate -- at least on the higher level tests. I was almost cold by the time I got back out there but our tests are pretty tightly packed and time is always an issue.

[Isk8NYC]

I skated as a kid (got through Bronze Dance, Juvenile free and 1st Figures Test plus ISI FS6). At age 30, I was grandfathered up to start with Intermediate Moves. What was the basis for the grandfathering to Intermediate? I thought the 1st Figures test grandfathered to Preliminary MITF. Did you ask for a review of your test history or have to fill out paperwork with the USFSA?

[Ellyn]

What was the basis for the grandfathering to Intermediate? I thought the 1st Figures test grandfathered to Preliminary MITF.

She had passed the juvenile free and so was assumed to be at juvenile level.

I wasn't much involved with skating during the years of figures plus freestyle tests (as a kid a quit a year or two before freestyle tests came in, and as an adult I came back shortly before the MITF came in). Were the figure tests not prerequisites for the freestyle tests? I.e., could you take the juvenile free without having passed second figure?

[Summerkid710]

It was the Juvenile freestyle that got me grandfathered. I confirmed it with a call to USFS. Back in the day, there was no such thing as Pre-Pre and Pre-Juv. You went from Prelimanary to Juvenile.

The figures tests were not direct prerequisites. However, if you wanted to compete at Regionals, you had to have passed the corresponding figure test because it was part of the competition. (That is if I am remembering this correctly... anyone? anyone?).

[Team Arthritis]

[QUOTE=Summerkid710;305345] Back in the day, there was no such thing as Pre-Pre and Pre-Juv. You went from Prelimanary to Juvenile.
QUOTE]

Wow that would be 5 years between tests for me8O
Lyle

[Debbie S]

I do wish the warmups were a bit closer to when you skate -- at least on the higher level tests. I was almost cold by the time I got back out there but our tests are pretty tightly packed and time is always an issue.I think there is a rule (in the test chair's manual) about how long a skater can be required to wait after the warm-up before beginning their test. I think it's 25 or 30 minutes or something like that. It sounds like you had the max amount of waiting time allowed, which stinks, but unfortunately, someone always has to end up in the last-in-group spot.

When I tested Pre-Bronze MIF, I was 3rd out of 3 but the tests only took about 10 minutes each. Fortunately, the rink was a 2-rink facility and there was a public session going on in the other rink, so I was able to continue warming up after the official warm-up ended. The other times I tested, I was first or second after the warm-up, except in one instance where the test session was held on a lightly-attended FS session (low-level MIF and FS only) where we just skated around until it was our turn to test.

[e-skater]

I recently watched a MITF test session at another rink. All the tests were Adult Silver/Gold or Pre-Juv/Juvenile. I asked for permission to watch it, and sat quietly making notes.

In any case, the adults definitely needed more warmup time. You could see in their knee bends and crossovers that they weren't skating their best.

Yep. At my recent test, they combined all the dance levels, so we had a slightly longer warmup, I think it was seven minutes or so? Despite the Adult Snychro coach allowing testees to "warm up" by stroking, only, on the other ice pad where the Synchro Team was practicing, that was not much help.

The kids were more nervous, and looked to their coaches for support.
Most of them had family/friends with them.
The adults had a coach, at most.

I was lucky in that there were two other adults testing dance, and one of my friends turned out to support me. My coach was busy with so many other testees (kids and their moms/family members --- just as you say!) that I didn't see her until right before the test.


Most of the kids seemed to realize that the judges watch the warmups and the stroking to/from each moves pattern. They skated to their starts with big, clean pushes and nice crossovers.

Several of the adults didn't seem to know that they were being watched. One adult actually skated to his first pattern doing toe pushes on every stroke. This hits home with me -- my old coach used to say that the judging begins when you get to the building. You never know who's in the next bathroom stall and overhears you complaining. The judges "pre-judge" during the warmups, which can help; someone recently mentioned that the judges asked for a reskate of something that she blew during the actual test, but nailed on the warmup. Finally, the judges deserve some respect. I only watched the tail end of the session and I was very cold; they must have been frozen. Yet, they were very friendly and nice throughout.

Oh, I agree with you completely! The "competitive kids" at our rink obviously have this drilled into them by their respective coaches.

I've become quite aware of myself during test warm up and even just exiting the ice. For my dance test I made sure I *did not* toe push at any time, even in between mini-pattern practice. And, when I exited the ice, I stroked with an extended leg and pointed toe and t-stopped at the barrier. I swear I could feel that judge's eyes on me!

I agree they pre-judge you. I "felt" this during my AB FS test. I was SO GLAD I hit two good backspins, right in front of the judges, who were looking, during warm up, as I augered in to a stop when I did it in my program during the test! The same went for my moves test warm up, though despite my slightly "better" power 3's during warm up, I was still marked down on that move.

Last, a concrete example of pre-judging occurred when I tested Prelim dances. I was the only person testing dance, so I was permitted to warm up a dance, then test it. I warmed up my last dance, and was ready to test, when the judge motioned me over. She said "I judged that and you passed." Ok, don't look a gift horse in the mouth!


One last note: almost every young skater finished each pattern with a nice t-stop, paused, and then skated to their next pattern's starting position in a straight line. They then waited for the judges to look up and the ref to nod at them. The adults (remember, these weren't beginner skaters) tended to finish with a weak stop, stand on both feet, and waited before going to the next start. (With a few weak little pushes and crossovers.) One adult skater actually wandered about for a bit, trying to remember where to stop.

This is really interesting. I've only had one moves test, and I finished each move with a t-stop and went immediately to the next starting position. Also, I saw another adult, fairly recently, test AB MITF, and she finished each move with an arm ...... gesture/flourish (though understated) directed toward the judges. It actually looked very polished, and confident.

I'm not criticizing, I'm just giving you my fly-on-the-wall observations, good and bad.

Suggestions:

STAY DOWN ON YOUR KNEES.
Many of adults (myself included) tended to "bob" up and down on the knee doing strokes and crossovers.
Try to keep your arms from flapping, too.

Crossovers should be done properly, even if they're not on the test pattern. (I saw a lot of bad crossovers from kids and adults in the "intro steps.")

LOL! Re the flapping arms!!!!! Boy, one can almost never be too far down in the knees. And it is so hard during a test!

I feel like tests I've taken (since my very first PB test) start when I walk through the rink door, and aren't over until I'm in my car going home!!!! Which means that once I step on that ice, I have to *pray* I'm not too stiff so that my xovers and stroking make me look like there's no way I'm ready for what's to come! LOL!!!!

Your observations WERE very helpful. Live and learn. My very first test was an absolute disaster from start to finish. I had to laugh at myself when I read some of the things you saw! I did (and still do some) all of those! LOL!

[sunjoy]

Good stuff to know. I want to test pre-bronze moves in a month, and I'm kindof casting about on my own. Group classes do some of the moves (right now they're from the bronze test), but nothing whatsoever about starting and ending.

My private lesson coach is used to kids, so again I think she might be unsure of how much to say or not say outside of the techniques themselves. I'll be sure to ask next time.

[saras]

I think there is a rule (in the test chair's manual) about how long a skater can be required to wait after the warm-up before beginning their test. I think it's 25 or 30 minutes or something like that. It sounds like you had the max amount of waiting time allowed, which stinks, but unfortunately, someone always has to end up in the last-in-group spot.


GEEZE! On one of my Gold MIF test tries - I warmed up, and then waited for *55* minutes to test (I was last in a large group). I did NOT pass - needless to say, the warmup was pretty useless for "warming up".

I passed easily the next time - it was a much more reasonable warm up to test time.

Sara

[techskater]

The figures tests were not direct prerequisites. However, if you wanted to compete at Regionals, you had to have passed the corresponding figure test because it was part of the competition. (That is if I am remembering this correctly... anyone? anyone?).


If you are talking about in the mid to late 80's, that is correct because I was in a similar boat to you. Before about 1983, I can't really say from personal experience, but my coach tell me stories about the 60s and figure tests.

[Debbie S]

Good stuff to know. I want to test pre-bronze moves in a month, and I'm kindof casting about on my own. Group classes do some of the moves (right now they're from the bronze test), but nothing whatsoever about starting and ending.

My private lesson coach is used to kids, so again I think she might be unsure of how much to say or not say outside of the techniques themselves. I'll be sure to ask next time.Well, it's good to hear that you have a coach - I got worried when you said you were "on your own". Group classes do not cover the moves at anywhere near the level that you would need to skate them to pass a USFSA MIF test. The idea behind teaching moves in the group lesson sequence is to introduce skaters to the moves and lead them into MIF testing, but that is not intended to replace private instruction on the moves.

As far as starting and ending, your coach should be instructing you to do the same things she would instruct her kids to do for each move. Except for the 3-turn pattern, which is a new move and is only on the Adult track, all of the other moves are on the standard track and there's no reason an adult would be expected to do them differently. (Yes, everyone, I realize that in some cases, the passing standard is different, etc, but I'm talking about the execution of the patterns.) Definitely ask your coach how you should start and stop each move (if you're testing in a month, I would hope that she would have already gone over this), but don't accept a "I'm not sure what adults are supposed to do so I don't know what to tell you" answer. You should do the moves the way anyone else would do them on the Pre-Prelim or Prelim tests.

Don't get hung up, though, on the intro and ending steps. As has already been noted, different coaches have different opinions, and as long as you don't break the rules (ex: having too many introductory steps or starting patterns on the wrong foot or direction if one is specified, or not finishing a pattern properly - like not doing at least 3 crossovers around both ends on the forward perimeter stroking), anything you do will be fine. I've seen test sessions where there were multiple versions of the "optional steps" on a particular move.

[techskater]

Each coach has a different requirement for where to start and how to end a pattern. As long as you don't go over your alotment of intro step (7 for all moves except the power circles (Gold, Int, Jr) which must commence from a stop) and it doesn't look sloppy, I wouldn't be too concerned. A nice stop is good. I've seen nice snow plows on PB moves tests, T stops, forward T stop, etc. Usually the judges are already looking down furiously scribbling notes when you come to a stop.

[Isk8NYC]

Each coach has a different requirement for where to start and how to end a pattern.ITA I had another coach tell me my skater was doing a pattern "totally wrong" because the kid made a mistake and did TWO crossovers instead of one on her introduction. (It was her first lesson on MITF.) "Everyone has to do it L/R/L/XO/L/R spiral!" So the kid did two crossovers instead of the extra two pushes - still <= 7 steps, right? Not to some people. :roll:

Seriously, I know coaches that will "tweak" their stock entrance for a skater. For example, there's a girl who can't do good mohawks, so they'll put a three turn in her intro steps for the BO crossover circles. (Prel)

[miraclegro]

I enjoyed reading your observations.

I will admit, that on my bronze test, no one was with me, not even my coach, but i had someone stand at the door to tell me what was next.

On my Silver MIF i brought my husband with me, but made him walk around outside the rink. He came in the last few minutes of the test. I'm definitely not superstitious, but i act like it when it comes to this crazy stuff. Don't know what it is. It's like "I want you here," but "don't watch." ridiculous, isn't it?

Warm ups are something i definitely think adults need about double the time. Heck, we are more than 2x these kids' ages, but i know that will never change!

[techskater]

When I passed my Intermediate MIF, I had NO ONE there, not even my coach, due to a conflict and I found out about 24 hours in advance that I was testing.

[Isk8NYC]

I will admit, that on my bronze test, no one was with me, not even my coach, but i had someone stand at the door to tell me what was next.Something dawns on me: kids (usually) can't get to the rink themselves, right? That's probably why each had family with them - chauffeurs! LOL Adult can drive themselves, and we don't really need a cheering section.

[Mrs Redboots]

No, but isn't it nice when we do!!!

[Isk8NYC]

Absolutely, Mrs Redboots. ITA

Went to a different rink for a test session and saw a few things that I thought were food for thought. No adults testing - only kids. (I knew no one, so don't ask if I saw your daughter/son. Hahaha)

There were four judges at the session. They tested from high-level MITF tests down to lower-level MITF tests. I thought that was interesting - what if you had registered to take two MITF tests? I guess they would have scheduled the other way around.

Since Pre-Prel only requires one judge, they split up the skaters 1:1 and ran three tests at once. When they reached the Waltz Eight, one skater worked from the middle circle; the other two used the double hockey circles at the end. I usually teach/practice on the center circle or the center of a hockey circle, so this is going into next week's lesson plan for my students and myself.

On the Prel MITF, the judges tested the skaters at the same time. On the Power 3's, two of the skaters ended up almost colliding because they were so close. It messed up their patterns, but the judges didn't ask for a retest. (Both passed.) Food for thought: if you're asked to test at the same time as someone else, make sure you leave enough room (give the skater before a good head start) so that you don't "catch up" with him/her.

Same notes as before about clean pushes, stopping properly, stopping completely, and heading off for your next pattern.

One skater kept doing a weak little t-stop (probably learned it for the test) that never quite stopped. Once she sort of stopped, she then moved a few feet off that spot to get where she wanted to be for the next pattern. It was very fidget-ey to me, not sure if the judges noticed.

One new thing I noted was that some of the skaters made sure to look at the judges (or their coach) before beginning the next pattern. Others just went to the next "START" and skated off. I think the "check the judges" approach was much better.

Only reskate I saw was on a PreJuv MITF test. The kid was 'jumping' the forward threes on the Threes in the Field pattern, but only on one side. The judges had her reskate the one side only and she passed.

[Thin-Ice]

Went to a different rink for a test session and saw a few things that I thought were food for thought.

One new thing I noted was that some of the skaters made sure to look at the judges (or their coach) before beginning the next pattern. Others just went to the next "START" and skated off. I think the "check the judges" approach was much better.

The judges like it better too. It gives us time to finish writing our comments so they can be read easily, instead of trying to write while watching the skater. I was at a long test session this week, and apparently towards the end, some of the kids had the idea they wouldn't be allowed to test if we ran behind (which was not true and we actually finished 15 minutes early -- on a FIVE hour session!). So on the Pre-Juve and Juvenile moves we had skaters leave the ice after the warm-up and the first skater start milliseconds later. One of the judges missed the first part of the first move. The skaters would finish the element, then take one breath and start on the next element. The Pre-Juve test usually takes about 10-12 minutes.. and two of these kids did it in less than seven! Needless to say, the comments were not as helpful as they might otherwise have been.

At test sessions in the SF Bay area, where I've tested and judged, usually the judges prefer the skater to come over before the start of the test. The Judge in Charge usually says the skater's name, to make sure we have the right person taking the right test, and then the JIC asks "Are you ready and do you know the order of the moves?" The skater nods or says yes and then the JIC says "When you finish each element, please look over at us to make sure we're finished writing our comments for you. Good luck (or have fun or something with a smile to let the skater know the judges are probably not going to eat the skater alive) and the test starts. It helps the judges relax knowing they will have time to watch the ENTIRE test and then have time to write comments... rather than watching the first part and rushing to write comments while kind of watching the second half of that element.

On a side note, we had one girl (about 9 years old) taking Juvenile Moves who skated over to the panel and said "Do you want me to tell you the order of the moves?". The judges smiled and declined her offer.. although what made it even funnier was she skated the first move, then the FOURTH move. The JIC called her over afterwards and said "Your order seems different than the one we have on our sheets. Could you skate what we have second, the Forward and Back Cross Strokes now?". The girl looked so embarassed that she looked like she might cry and said "But this is the order my coach taught me!" and the JIC (who is a wonderfully kind woman) said "Oh that's OK, you don't have to do that one again, it's fine.. just do the Cross Strokes now". The girl looked reassured then went out and was fine. She was probably the strongest skater we had at that level all day. And she even skated all her moves with a beautiful smile! But I think the test chair did talk to the girl's coach afterwards to explain the test order. So maybe the girl SHOULD have given us the order of the elements before she skated that test!

[Team Arthritis]

But I think the test chair did talk to the girl's coach afterwards to explain the test order. So maybe the girl SHOULD have given us the order of the elements before she skated that test!

Can I put in a little off topic warning-> NEVER trust your coach to get the details and or requirements of a test or competition correct. Stupid mistakes happen all the time eg. Michelle Kwan skating to a program that was 2 secs too long, coaches getting confused about which elemenst are in which test, etc etc. If its your test/ program or your childs test/program then it really is up to you to check out the rules each time. I catch errors frequently as I cut lots of music so I always double check program length.
FWIW, speaking from experience
Lyle

[jenlyon60]

At my club's test sessions, the test chair annouces for the skaters and tells them which element (by name) and when to start the next element in each MIF test. This helps keep things moving along and ensures that the judges are all ready to watch the next element.

Our MIF/FS test sessions are normally 6-8 hours long. Our standard schedule is to start with the Pre-Prelim MIF/FS, since those can be single-paneled with Silver or higher judges (last test session we had something like 24 Pre-Prelim tests, some MIF, some FS). Then since the high test judges are there, the normal schedule generally continues with the higher MIF tests (Novice/Intermediate) and maybe some PreJuv/Juv depending on how much of what there is. Then there will be some freestyle tests, followed by an ice make.

Often the Junior and Senior MIF tests will be put after the ice make to give them "fresh" ice. Then maybe some mid-level tests, or often the lower level Juv, then Pre-Juv then Prelim MIF tests, and finally more FS tests.

We double-panel almost everything (or at the higher levels, "double-panel but each skater goes separately"). On our Pre-Prelim tests, there will be up to 6 or more kids testing at a time. Our test chair has it down to a fine art, I think.

Across the whole day, our test chair will have used 12-14 judges (basically it splits into a "morning crew" and an "afternoon crew.")

[Thin-Ice]

Here in the Bay Area each club seems to have its own format for conducting tests;sometimes test schedules are dependent on which kids are pulled out of school on test day. We had a four-hour test session yesterday that started with Novice Moves and ended with an Intermediate FS... because that's when those kids could be there. We had a full sprinkling of Pre-Pre through Juvenile Moves, FS and about 8 lower-level dance tests through the rest of it.

And don't worry about depriving the young skaters of their educations. Not all our clubs have tests during school hours. One has early Sunday mornings (7am), another has Thursday nights, another has three test sessions a year (beginning of summer, end of summer and just before the qualifying deadline).. while others conduct 3-4 tests per month at different rinks.

All the system seems to work for the various clubs. And I find it fascinating that each has developed its own "test culture" -- which I get to see first-hand since I'm willing to drive around to the various club test sessions when I'm asked to judge or when I find a test I need to trial judge for my next appointment.

Silly me, I can't seem to stay away from ice rinks.. I skate 4-5 times a week, and this month I will have judged or trial-judged at 5 test sessions all at different rinks.. and I may go watch/support a friend test at another rink. I must be addicted to ice-fumes!:lol:

[jenlyon60]

Silly me, I can't seem to stay away from ice rinks.. I skate 4-5 times a week, and this month I will have judged or trial-judged at 5 test sessions all at different rinks.. and I may go watch/support a friend test at another rink. I must be addicted to ice-fumes!:lol:

Know what you mean...

We've just got such a volume of testers month after month that the way we do things is the only way for us to get things done. And even then our test chair still has to wait-list skaters or scramble to try and get extra ice time or overflow ice time at a different time/rink.

It's a trial judge's dream club. Other than the pairs requirement I was able to get all my requirements for my Bronze at home club with no problem.