Judges "cheating" to benefit Russian skaters a myth?

[Lark]

I have only been a true fan of figure skating since the 1994 Olympics, but I was only into the Ladies skaters then.

But, for the whole time I have watched skating, I have heard commentators and fans talk about the "deceitful" judges awarding the undeserving Russian skaters over the "true" winners.

Well, enter Youtube! I just got DSL last week, and I have been watching a lot of skating from the earlier Olympics and Worlds online.

Just to name a couple of judgings that I have heard questioned millions of times that I need to offer an opinion on:

1992 Olympics - Ice Dance - I keep hearing that the Duschenays were robbed blind, but I do not see it. Issabelle, I think is her name, is very sloppy in the FS. Klimove and Ponomarenko, the Gold medalists, were very good, and reminded me of modern day ice dancers. Very fluid and European. The judging was correct, in my eyes.

1994 Olympics - Ice Dance - I know I am not the only one who has heard how much of a travesty the FS scoring was, with Torvill and Dean being just robbed robbed robbed. I agree that T&D had one of the most innovative routines I have ever seen, but they placed 3rd due to deductions. I agree that Grishuk and Platov did not deserve to win, she was awful, but neither did T&D. Usova and Zhulin (?) were the rightful winners. Still Russians.

I am too tired to get too much more into it tonight, but does anyone else think the image of every Gold medal being awarded to a Russian ice skater as "scandelous" as being a bit off.

Does anyone else see any contests where a Russian won, there was a huge outcry, yet you did not understand why there was?

[Joe Ryder]

I am for all practical purposes a complete newb to skating. By no stretch of the imagination could I be considered knowledgable but I can share a couple observations.

It seems from where I stand that skating is a game where you go out on the ice with a perfect score and it's the little mistakes that reduce your score. There are however a huge number of variables. You MAY get points for doing something spectacular but you will definitely lose big time if you botch it. I know this is wrong but I believe music has a huge effect on the final score. My exposure to the sport has only been a short time but it seems that every time a skater chooses a "bad" piece of music, they don't win no matter how flawless their performance may be. I have also seen skaters do faceplants on the ice to the beat of a soul stirring piece and end up on the podium or even as winners. From my perspective it seems judging is quite subjective and I really don't have a clue which way the judges will swing or exactly what motivates them. I'm sure they are not conciously biased toward Russians but there may some other subtle thing(s) that may make them slightly biased that they themselves are not even aware of. I'm certain there is politics at least to some extent because that seems to be true in every sport. I dunno.

[loveskating]

Does anyone else see any contests where a Russian won, there was a huge outcry, yet you did not understand why there was?

Almost constantly. Certainly in 1994 regarding the huge bashing of Grishuk and Platov; they deserved to win, hands down in my opinion, even with bobble, although I liked Krylova and Ovsiannikov better overall at the time. Frankly, I have not seen a free skate that was more difficult technicaly before or since. Those pull through spreadeagles were amazing and so well choreographed.

I disagree as to 94, it was all very close; G&P went by the new rules, and had much greater speed and a lot more technical difficulty; after all that dying on the ice, the juduges wanted to see some raw dancing and they got it from G&P is all.

[Lark]

The only time that I can think of right off hand would be the 1998 Olympics Pairs podium.

Can someone with a vast knowledge of skating please explain to me how a team, and a fairly new team at that, makes 3 HUGE mistakes in the SP and LP and STILL finishes in 2nd place!?!?!?! I need an answer! :frus:

I love Ber and Sik, I truly think they are now a classic, beautiful, strong Pair, but they WERE NOT In 1998. Period. :giveup:

[Kay]

I must say, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Without getting into specifics, because there are several cases where everyone has their own opinion of who should have won, USSR/Russia simply turned out better skaters.

I think a lot of people look at it as political judging but they don't seem to consider the concept of political skating. USSR/Russia implemented programs to train world-class skaters. Period. They invested enormous amounts of time and money in development programs, training camps, athletics incentives, etc, that trained and motivated their athletes to have technical skills, impeccable health, and good mental focus. If you're interested at a peek in the behind-the-scenes look of a USSR/Russia skater, the book My Sergei by Ekaterina Gordeeva is a good glimpse. Her memories of growing up demonstrate the level of commitment that the USSR made to their athletes - they provided training camps, doctors, housing, education, funding, specific foods etc. all designed to place their skaters on top.

You need to consider as well that during the Cold War, Russia needed to make a statement. They wanted to demonstrate that their ways were superior, and winning Olympic medals was a way to do it. They focused their resources on hockey, figure skating and gymnastics, and a few other select sports and the result? You guessed it, they continually turned out apex competitors.

By comparison, if you look at Canadian athletes, the current statistics is that two-thirds of Canadian athletes live below the poverty line. (As a Canadian, I feel I should stick to discussing Canadian athletes because I don't know a lot about US programs). How many of us have known talented skaters that either a.) had to drop out because they could no longer afford to figure skate or b.) had their performance suffer because they were working two jobs, couldn't afford lessons, didn't eat or sleep enough, etc. ?? Head to any rink and there will be tons of them around or no longer around because they dropped out. So where does that leave Canadian competitors? Frankly, sometimes it seems amazing that we've done as well as we have given what world class competitors must go through to get there.

The bottom for me is that people like to criticise judging for the success of Russian skaters and to some extent, block judging will always be influential (excepting the Sale/Pelletier ordeal). But you know what? Russia simply turns out better skaters. They are trained to have superior jumps and impeccable consistency but on top of that, they all seem to have that uniquely Russian artistry that captures the audience entirely. And it's not just one skater, it seems to be every single one that appears at Worlds and Olympics.

Russia has won medals because Russia produced superior skaters.

[Samskate]

This is just my humble opinion, for what it's worth. I'd like to point out that the bottom line is that for years, Russia's athletes were subsidized by their government almost to the point where they could have been considered professionals. Their sole purpose was to be an athlete. That is one of the reasons why (at least in the USA) athletes are now allowed to earn money and maintain their amateur status. It was the only way our athletes could even begin to maintain the same level of training.

[Schmeck]

Before you dismiss it all as a 'myth' research the foot-tapping scandal, and the bloc judging...

[Samskate]

Schmeck, I agree with you. Also, thank you for spelling it "bloc"!8-)

[trishelle]

There are definitely some well-documented and proven cases where judges were caught or admitted to back room deals or pressure from their skating federations to vote a certain way ... as you pointed out, the foot tapping incident, plus the Bourne and Kraatz debacle at the Olympics where the top four placements were decided before any of the skaters took to the ice. Interesting that the Canadian judge who blew the lid on that little incident was kicked out (they said it was against the rules for her to talk to the other judges before the event, but she only did so to get evidence of what was going on), whereas the "alleged" perpetrators are (I believe) still judging ... go figure.:roll:

That said, the posters who pointed out that the former system in the USSR bred many amazing athletes who could perform at their very best when it counted, are right on the money. Much like the Romanian gymnastics program, the government of the time felt that having these top level athletes in the spotlight winning medals in some strange way proved that their Communist system was working. I think that's why it's so hard for many of us in North America to understand why there was a need to 'fix' anything ... their athletes, IMHO, were doing just fine on their own, without the help of so-called 'fixes'.

Since the breakup of the USSR and the fall of communism, however, there has been a drastic change in the state of the sport in what is now Russia. I watched a documentary a few years back on the current state of things(rundown ice rinks with no heat, difficulty getting ice time, equipment, funding, etc., many of the best coaches moving to North America to coach) has really changed the situation there.

Since there were still skaters in the ranks who were raised through the old system, we didn't see the results of the change right away. However, I believe that we are just starting to see the results now.

No longer are Russian skaters dominating events ... instead we're seeing a mixture of Chinese, American, Canadian, German, Bulgarian, Korean, Japanese, etc. etc. etc. skaters standing on the podiums. Yes, there are still Russian skaters up there too, but it's now a much more even field.

I will be very interested to see how the Russians perform at this year's World Championships. Given who they're sending (check out the results of the Russian nationals), there are quite a few relatively 'unknown' names. My prediction is that we won't be seeing Russian skaters walk away with the majority of the medals this year and that instead, we will see a wonderful mix of many different nationalities on the podium.

I understand the Chinese program is very similar to the old USSR program (skaters living in dormatories, working all day at skating, ballet, conditioning, etc.), which could explain the dominance of the country in the pairs discipline.

Simply put ... as a country, you get out of it exactly what you put into it.

[loveskating]

The only time that I can think of right off hand would be the 1998 Olympics Pairs podium.

Can someone with a vast knowledge of skating please explain to me how a team, and a fairly new team at that, makes 3 HUGE mistakes in the SP and LP and STILL finishes in 2nd place!?!?!?! I need an answer! :frus:

I love Ber and Sik, I truly think they are now a classic, beautiful, strong Pair, but they WERE NOT In 1998. Period. :giveup:


Really? I disagree. In the SP Anton fell on the 3 toe loops; otherwise they were flawless; in the LP, flawless except for very slight forward on second trhow, and they fell on a DISMOUNT, not on the lift (frankly, if they had fallen on that incredible lift, one of them would likely be dead now)

Bareshnaya and Sik's LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE4OIC2Z_50

Here is their SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI4478bPGD0
SBS jumps

I believe Woetzel and Steuer won bronze;

Here is their LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHq7PrtDfZ0

Did Mandy not two foot a 2 axel, much more serious than falling on a DISMOUNT from a lift, which is not worth a lot under any circumstances?

Did she not two foot landing on their first throw? Not great landing on second either, but ok. Generally not as much speed, flow, edges or transitions, I'd say by comparison to one of the truly great pairs teams.

I could not find the SP for Woetzel and Steuer.

[loveskating]

Here is LP from 2001 Worlds for B&S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd4jqXPeB0Q&mode=related&search=

This win was taken from them because Yelena had taken cough syrup.

Nice, eh? Really fair? I think not.

[Lark]

Really? I disagree. In the SP Anton fell on the 3 toe loops; otherwise they were flawless;
Here is their SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zI4478bPGD0
SBS jumps

.

Actually, B&S were NOT flawless in the SP other than the fall (if any other team were to fall in the SP, they would be out of medal contention, period!). Elena also had a jacked-up landing in the throw twist (is that what it is called?). 2 MAJOR mistakes in the SP should have put them in 5th or lower going into the LP. They ARE called "required elements" for a reason. :frus:

[NoVa Sk8r]

This win was taken from them because Yelena had taken cough syrup.
Nice, eh? Really fair? I think not.She was found guilty of doping at 2000 Europeans, which meant she could not compete for 3 months (hence missing Worlds that year).
She and Anton won silver in 2001, behind Sale & Pelletier.

And I might add, what is unfair about that doping incident? The ISU has a list of banned substances, and she tested positive for one (albeit cough syrup). Her coach should have been more vigilant.

[loveskating]

Actually, B&S were NOT flawless in the SP other than the fall (if any other team were to fall in the SP, they would be out of medal contention, period!). Elena also had a jacked-up landing in the throw twist (is that what it is called?). 2 MAJOR mistakes in the SP should have put them in 5th or lower going into the LP. They ARE called "required elements" for a reason. :frus:

Well, now you are changing the terms of the debate, which previously was about two falls. Course, people winning GOLD with two falls occurs occasionally as you well know, like Kwan with a splat in the SP and an omission and a splat in the LP at 2000 Nationals, so its all relative to the competition, is it not? There is nothing in the fact of two falls that means one will not win.

However, if I recall, the rule on the catch on the twist was not in effect then, was it? But even if it was, that is hardly a major mistake.

Anton's fall on the 3 jump in the SP was a major mistake, but at that time, no one came close to them as to overall qulaity, and that includes the gold medalists, Demietriev and Kazakova, at that time.

So you think that Steur and WOetzel should have won the silver or what? Who do you think should have won silver?

[loveskating]

She was found guilty of doping at 2000 Europeans, which meant she could not compete for 3 months (hence missing Worlds that year).
She and Anton won silver in 2001, behind Sale & Pelletier.

And I might add, what is unfair about that doping incident? The ISU has a list of banned substances, and she tested positive for one (albeit cough syrup). Her coach should have been more vigilant.

Technically, yes, but in the country I grew up in, America, in the past, people were never punished on a technicality if a jury could stop it -- when there is real justice, technicalities are NEVEr used to punish innocent people.

[Lark]

So you think that Steur and WOetzel should have won the silver or what? Who do you think should have won silver?
The Germans should have won Silver, Ina and Dunjgen should have won Bronze.

[loveskating]

The Germans should have won Silver, Ina and Dunjgen should have won Bronze.

Anyone have a video? I couldn't find one. I have it at home but no time to go through the tapes in that storage box.

Its certainly debatable, not an unreasonable assertion, but I recall that at the time, I thought I&D were of pretty low quality, on their flats a lot, even, whereas B&S are up there next to G&G as to quality, including transitions, IMHO.

[Sessy]

In Russia there's also still a huge outcry about Slutskaya being robbed of her 2002 and 2006 medals (silver resp. bronze instead of gold resp. silver) in favour of American skaters...

I think, with all the opposition between the two countries and given their history, this sort of outcries are no more than normal.

Besides, frankly? 1994 was a HUNGER winter in Russia according to my Dutch history- and geography schoolbooks (although, having lived there, it's more like 1993 was, 1994 was better already) and some Russian skaters were literally digging through the trash to find things of value to sell. Things didn't improve till after 1998.

Even IF the results were rigged, don't you think it was more *necessary* for Russians to win good places and collect the money in order to support themselves and continue skating than it was for American skaters, who got enough to support themselves from sponsor money (a concept unknown in the Russian skating world back then) and other competitions?

Kind of like Slutskaya stated before the 2006 olympics that she came for the money because she needed it for her sick mother. I'm still really pissed Cohen placed over Slutskaya, cuz Cohen doesn't *need* the money, strictly speaking.

[NickB]

Kind of like Slutskaya stated before the 2006 olympics that she came for the money because she needed it for her sick mother. I'm still really pissed Cohen placed over Slutskaya, cuz Cohen doesn't *need* the money, strictly speaking.

:roll: Figure skating judges are there to judge figure skating, not a contest as to who needs money the most.

[Lark]

Well, now you are changing the terms of the debate, which previously was about two falls.

However, if I recall, the rule on the catch on the twist was not in effect then, was it? But even if it was, that is hardly a major mistake.


The original argument was about 3 mistakes, not 2 falls.

As for the catch on the twist, I believe it was still a "required" element, which means it was, uhm, required!

[Lark]

I'm still really pissed Cohen placed over Slutskaya, cuz Cohen doesn't *need* the money, strictly speaking.

If we went by need, then most likely none of the National medalists would ever be able to compete again.

Once you medal at Nationals, you are touring, getting sponsorship money, etc.

Should all skaters bring their previous years taxes to competitions to determine who has the financial need to skate?

I understand the desire to see the underdog prevail, but this is a sport. If you are looking through the trash to sell things to make ends meet, then you need to be WORKING at a call center, fast food restaurant, etc.

Skating costs are the least of your problems! :giveup:

[loveskating]

The original argument was about 3 mistakes, not 2 falls.

As for the catch on the twist, I believe it was still a "required" element, which means it was, uhm, required!

Uhm, yes, the twist was required; however, LATER, a rule was made by the ISU on the catch part of the twist to require a clean catch, no collapse on the body. Ergo, since the ISU had not yet made that rule, there was no mistake on the catch on the twist by B&S, thus there were not 3 mistakes.

[loveskating]

Even IF the results were rigged, don't you think it was more *necessary* for Russians to win good places and collect the money in order to support themselves and continue skating than it was for American skaters, who got enough to support themselves from sponsor money (a concept unknown in the Russian skating world back then) and other competitions?

I think I understand what you are saying: IF the game is rigged, as many think, then you believe the purpose of the rigging should be to help those in need?? This sounds moral, but I dunno because by that logic (helping those in need), we would ultimately get some fat skater who cannot hold an edge, much less do a single axel.

What I detest about rigged judging is precisely that the best skaters do not win, and we, the public, do not get to see the best skaters!

[Sessy]

I think I understand what you are saying: IF the game is rigged, as many think, then you believe the purpose of the rigging should be to help those in need?? This sounds moral, but I dunno because by that logic (helping those in need), we would ultimately get some fat skater who cannot hold an edge, much less do a single axel.

What I detest about rigged judging is precisely that the best skaters do not win, and we, the public, do not get to see the best skaters!

No, not quite... I'm saying if two people are equally good but in very different styles (like slutskaya and weir have styles that differ much from those of their opponents), incompareable styles, there's no harm in letting the one who really needs it win by 0.1 points in artistic merit or whatever

[Sessy]

If we went by need, then most likely none of the National medalists would ever be able to compete again.

Once you medal at Nationals, you are touring, getting sponsorship money, etc.

Should all skaters bring their previous years taxes to competitions to determine who has the financial need to skate?

I understand the desire to see the underdog prevail, but this is a sport. If you are looking through the trash to sell things to make ends meet, then you need to be WORKING at a call center, fast food restaurant, etc.

Skating costs are the least of your problems! :giveup:

We're talking about RUSSIAN skaters. There was NO work in Russia at that time. You could get work paying about 50 dollar a month, but you'd need to get there, and the bus & metro tickets would be already 25 a month!

You've no idea what you're talking about, you weren't there. I was there. The European union dumped all their excess milk and butter and meat in Russia as "humanitary help" for free (they needed to get rid of it because Europe overproduced, and still does), which bankrupted all the farmers in the soviet union, and a subsequent collapse of the entire society followed. You've NO idea what you're talking about dear. There WAS no work, except the kind which wouldn't even give you enough to pay your electricity bill - let alone anything else.

Not for people with university degrees in mathematics, not for computer specialists, not even for hookers. There just wasn't any work.

And let's not forget the inflation. It went over 1500% in 1994, which is the top of the measuring scale, so nobody knows exactly how much it was worth. But I'll give you an estimate, my great-grandmother sold her house just before the inflation started. After the inflation, the money was worth less than a US dollar.

But in reality, this meant that the day you got your salary - in rubles, worth 50 dollar, by the end of the month, it would be worth less than 25 dollars (over 1500% a year, is over a 100% a month). And you can't spend it all on the day you get it, because there's nothing to buy in the stores!

Rinks were run by the state and the skating federation, as long as you were good, really good, you'd get ice time and if you were lucky like Evgeni, you'd even get skates from the skating federation and some coaching. But then you'd have to live somewhere. Eat something. Y'know, the normal stuff.
Evgeni Plushenko lived in an 8 square metres (like, 12 yards? less) room with his mom in an apartment filled with alcoholics... Makes ya go hmm eh?

[Lark]

I truly understand your argument, I really do.

BUT, if you cannot afford to eat, then participating in an elite sport is kind of weird to me.

I would love to go backpacking through Europe, or take singing lessons. I cannot afford to.

I live in a 1 bedroom, 400 square foot house with a disabled parent.

Participating in a sport as expensive as skating is not a necessity. It is a benefit of wealth. I might be jaded, but I cannot feel sorry for a person that cannot afford $50,000.00-$100,000.00 a year to skate when I am having trouble finding a job myself.

I am not trying to sound bitter. But maybe some skaters need to get sponsors.

[loveskating]

No, not quite... I'm saying if two people are equally good but in very different styles (like slutskaya and weir have styles that differ much from those of their opponents), incompareable styles, there's no harm in letting the one who really needs it win by 0.1 points in artistic merit or whatever

The harm is in doing anything that deviates from the accomplishment (merit) of the skaters, who should ALL skate to the same rules and be judged by the same rules. Where does that sort of accommodation stop? What is the result when a judge gives some skater who is suffering hardship .1 unearned points or gives some skater who is American .1 unearned points -- both thngs attack the integrity of the actual skating.

However, if there must be accommodations, then yours is preferable to the kind of blatant corporate product support that skating has apparently become...in the US.

P.S. You describe a crisis, much like the Great Depression in the USA in the 1930s -- but in the normal course of life, the way to attack inequalities in skating is at the entry level, supporting the training of all children who show talent as skaters. This gives everyone a shot at learning and excelling in a sport, but also protects the integrity of the sport and produces the best skating, as it draws on 100% of the talent pool.

P.S.S. I am deeply sorry for any role my own country and my own taxes might have played in the suffering you describe.

[Lark]

but in the normal course of life, the way to attack inequalities in skating is at the entry level, supporting the training of all children who show talent as skaters. This gives everyone a shot at learning and excelling in a sport, but also protects the integrity of the sport and produces the best skating, as it draws on 100% of the talent pool.

I am not sure I agree with this.

Where is the money coming from for training "all children who show talent as skaters"?

I adore the sport and artistry of figure skating. I am a huge fan.

BUT, I can think of a lot better ways to spend my taxes then allowing every child who has delusions of grandeur to partake in an elitist sport.

America is not a communist country that puts their children into "training camps" to find the strongest participants for a sport. To make their country number 1.

I am of the midset that if you are not able to support your extra-carricular activities, you need to find one that you can afford.

No one is entitled to have the chance to be a National, World or Olympic athlete. Sorry. :giveup:

[loveskating]

Oh, it doesn't have to be taxes, it can be a lottery fund. I think Italy has one now for its sports, and skating is included..which is probably why they are showing up great in international competition. Kids in the US go to training camps, for goodness sakes, so that cannot be the problem???

Funds of all kinds are VERY capitalist, couldn't be more capitalist, and there is no reason funds can only go to individuals!

No one is entitled to much, I agree, certainly not to being a skating champ -- however, in the real world the fact is that IF an entity, a country, does not draw on its talent pool, if your talent pool is constrained by finances, like in the US down to less than 40%, or constrained by anything else, you simply will not be able to compete with people who find ways to draw from their entire talent pool.

Again, its about skating, not about "rights" or "entitlements". In fact, anything that supports people's productive power helps everyone, not just them.

[Lark]

Oh, it doesn't have to be taxes, it can be a lottery fund.

I like the lottery idea. See, I am not so rigid! :halo:

[Sessy]

I am not trying to sound bitter. But maybe some skaters need to get sponsors.

Yeah they're now in Russia at a point that they reached the conclusion that hey yeah let's get sponsors. 10 years ago, the idea didn't occur to people for some reason... It takes a full new generation to grow up to be able to live in a market economy; people who grew up under communism simply can't switch to market economics like that, a few exceptions excluded. The majority of people are just "lost" once they're no longer sent from school to this and this place to work and to this and this club; once they're no longer taken by the hand.

As for skating... I dunno, I agree skating isn't necessarily a necessity, but some sport is and the Dutch bureau for statistics has come to the conclusion that 1 in 10 children's parents don't have the money to give them breakfast. Of course the parents don't have money to pay for any sport either... And what happens when those kids grow up? Poor people live in tiny apartments so they end up hanging out on the street and becoming criminals. And then you have to spend a heckload of tax dollars (euros, whatever) for police officers, prisons, teenage mothers, restoring the effects of vandalism, etc... If that money can be spend on paying for a simple hobby for a child - whether that's arts or a simple sport - our entire society will be far better off.

And back when I was dancing... You know what happens to old dancing shoes? They just get thrown away, most of them perfectly useable, just with discoloured spots around the edges and on the toes... Meanwhile there's some people who seriously don't excel - on a medium level at least - only for the reason that dancing shoes cost as much as taking lessons for a half a year and they dance in sneakers, and you just can't dance in sneakers the way you can dance in dancing shoes and because competitions don't allow anything with plastic or rubber soles.
We throw so much away in our society...

[loveskating]

Well, back to the topic of extenuating circumstances in judging.

Your point, that in a close race, give it to the needy skater, while morally superior to corporate product support, is moot since the proceeds of any one competiton are not sustaining and since in the US it matters little who wins anyway when it comes to future financial gain.

Winning Worlds and Olympics used to be a ticket at least to a professional skating career, but now someone like Jennifer Robbins, who never made the podium internationally, is on TELEVISION even, making the big bucks, apparently because she has friends in high places. Meantime, truly great skaters cannot get work and some are deamonized or just ignored.

Me, I don't make enough money to pay to see someone's freinds skate. I pay to see great skating.

[Emanfan]

Demonized?

[loveskating]

Demonized?

I refer to Pasha Grishuk, who was humiliated on national television (NBC I believe) as a home wrecker...during a competition where she skated. THe media also seized on something she was tricked into saying or doing about Marilyn Monroe, I forget.

She was a two time olympic gold medalist, but we almost never got to see her skate after that.

[Lark]

I refer to Pasha Grishuk, who was humiliated on national television (NBC I believe) as a home wrecker...

loveskating, do you think NBC was doing this to create the Next Big Scandal to pump up ratings?

I agree that she has been demonized unfairly...

[loveskating]

loveskating, do you think NBC was doing this to create the Next Big Scandal to pump up ratings?

I agree that she has been demonized unfairly...

Who knows why. If so, this attempt was a dismal failure.

However, factually insulting her began at Nagano Olympics relative to Bourne and Kratz, for a minor slip in a program that was televised, when in fact it was A&P who were vying with B&K, so that was very very wierd; she was degraded fluff wise at Nagano based on some film made when she was just playing around (trusting soul) backstage. Then, aside from a lot of mean and inaccurate comments by commentators about G&P's skating, the public humiliation as a home wrecker was made months after Nagano...which pretty much finished her off.

I know factually she and Tarasova had a falling out over money and Pasha's independence, but that was after Nagano where the deamonization started.

Whatever the intentions, the fact is that now a lot of sub par skaters who are North American or British or somone's best friend or relative are making the big bucks.

OGMs or even making the podium mean NOTHING any more as to future earning power, although they mean something currently for the prize money.

[Kay]

I am not sure I agree with this.

Where is the money coming from for training "all children who show talent as skaters"?

I adore the sport and artistry of figure skating. I am a huge fan.

BUT, I can think of a lot better ways to spend my taxes then allowing every child who has delusions of grandeur to partake in an elitist sport.

America is not a communist country that puts their children into "training camps" to find the strongest participants for a sport. To make their country number 1.

I am of the midset that if you are not able to support your extra-carricular activities, you need to find one that you can afford.

No one is entitled to have the chance to be a National, World or Olympic athlete. Sorry. :giveup:


Hey Lark,

I can totally see where you are coming from with a North American standpoint. In our society at the moment, skating is a luxury sport and there are a lot of financial needs that are a priority waay ahead of lesson bills.

However, the piece that seems to be missing here is that for Russian skaters at the time, skating was not a luxury sport - it was a way to a better life. Under the communist regime, skaters who performed well were given "gifts" and there was a comparatively huuuuuge financial gain for skaters and their families. At a time when the people of Russia were experiencing severe hardship and famine as previously mentioned, skaters on the National team were being fed. Ekaterina Gordeeva discusses is her book "My Sergei" how their federation of sports fed them caviar during training because it has an extremely high protein content to help them with their training. At the time, you couldn't just go out and pick an apartment and buy/rent it. You had to apply for one and be put on a list, and there were long waits to be "assigned" apartments.... yet if you were a national team member, apartments miraculously became available to you.

Being on the national team meant you were given monetary allowances, special treatments, access to doctors and trainers, flown to training camps and taken care of, which brought health and wealth benefits to not only you, but your family as well. Figure Skating became a paid job, and a great job at that, a way to claw you and your family out of debt. Evgeni Plushenko in interviews has stated how the first thing he did when he was given money was to apply for an apartment for his family, because they were sharing a one bedroom, one window apartment with another family.

Parents continued to push their children into sports because there was so much potential for a better life, and also the impression i have been given is that skating at a local rink hoping to get picked up by the federation of sports wasn't as comparatively costly as North American ice fees are today.

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion about why, despite the poverty, so many children were entered into figure skating in Russia/USSR during the time!! To those of you that were there or can shed some more light than what I have on this, feel free to add it.

[loveskating]

Hey Lark,

I can totally see where you are coming from with a North American standpoint. In our society at the moment, skating is a luxury sport and there are a lot of financial needs that are a priority waay ahead of lesson bills. ...

However, the piece that seems to be missing here is that for Russian skaters at the time, skating was not a luxury sport - it was a way to a better life.

Yes, here, in the US, these days skating is a luxury for rich people with happy lives who have nothing better to do with their time and who love to display themselves all over the place and prove how superior they are!

Yech.

[Kristin]

Yes, here, in the US, these days skating is a luxury for rich people with happy lives who have nothing better to do with their time and who love to display themselves all over the place and prove how superior they are!

Yech.

All I can say as an American skater is WOW. 8O

I'm certainly not rich, I don't ever feel superior to anyone around me because I have to work very hard at what I do, and I certainly do have other things I could be doing besides skating. I skate because I actually love to skate. If all I wanted to do was to "display myself all over the place", I would have stayed in modeling....it would have been cheaper....! :P

[Lark]

I thought loveskating was being sarcastic. I am not sure.

[Mel On Ice]

Yes, here, in the US, these days skating is a luxury for rich people with happy lives who have nothing better to do with their time and who love to display themselves all over the place and prove how superior they are!

Yech.

I don't know what rinks you're hanging out in, but I know I am surrounded by hard-working parents, their kids, and adult skaters who participate in this sport for a variety of reasons, the least of which is claiming to be superior to others.

That sounds really bitter, are you sure you really love skating?

[techskater]

I am in a similar situation to Mel in terms of what I see in our rinks here in Chicago. Many working class/middle class families with one kid who skates and one who does something else (tennis, soccer, etc.). We have a number of high level kids here (2 went to Nationals as Seniors and have been to JGP events and 1 even medalled at JGPF this year, 1 Junior, 3 Novice, 2 Intermediate, 1 Juvenile) this year, and none of them are particularly rich or have a sense of entitlement. As for me, I work for a living along with skating for fun and the love of the sport. When I was a kid, I was given a budget for skating and so didn't make it very far in the sport. I will tell you, that every element and skating skill I have, I have worked my butt off for.

[loveskating]

I thought loveskating was being sarcastic. I am not sure.

Bingo. Certainly provoked discussion, did it not?

[Scarlett21]

Well, who in your opinion was better? Ber and Sik are something special and great and nobody can perfofm like they did. Maybe you like the Asian paires?8O :?:
Than i should tell you that technique is not everything!
:!: :!: :!:
I love Ber and Sik, I truly think they are now a classic, beautiful, strong Pair, but they WERE NOT In 1998. Period. :giveup:[/QUOTE]