Gibbons & Pekarek

[NAdancefan]

The USFSA has just announced that Justin Pekarek and his girlfriend, Hilary Gibbons, will compete in Senior Dance at Midwesterns and at Nationals this year.

http://www.usfsa.org/news/2002-03/gibbpeka-newteam.htm

With the return of both Pekarek and his former partner Jamie Silverstein, plus the return of Emilie Nussear and Matthew Gates and the forming of other new teams, his season is definitely shaping up to be an exciting one in U.S. dance!

[legjumper]

Thanks for posting, NAdancefan! Senior dance is going to be a great event at Nationals in January! So many good teams...so many getting chacked by ABC..... ;)

[AxelAnnie22]

But why aren't Silverstein and Parek skating together? They had such magic.

[Scott]

Glad to see Justin back inaction.It willdefinately be curious to see how he and his new partner go up against Jamie and Brandon.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Scott
It willdefinately be curious to see how he and his new partner go up against Jamie and Brandon.

Definitely. I'm inclined to think that Jamie and Brandon would have the initial advantage since both of them have so much experience in dance competition (while only one half of Justin's new team has that experience), but you really can never tell--look how well Brandon and Emilie Nussear did in Emilie's first year of dance competition. It may turn out that Hilary is a natural dancer and they make a splash right away. At least there should be no doubt that Justin will be able to hold up his end of the partnership. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.

[Aaron W]

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing the senior dance competition at Mids this November.

So who will be competing there?
Silverstein & Forsyth
Gibbons & Pekarek
Navarro & Schmalo
Beckerdite & Kelling

Any junior teams that have moved up on the National level?

-Aaron (who's praying that he doesn't have any Midterms scheduled on that Thursday and Friday)8O

[Jack]

Junior teams moving up:

Loren Rabinowitz-Galler and David Mitchell
Kendra Goodwin and Chris Obzansky
I'd heard a rumor that Metzger and Russell were thinking about moving up, but they were down for junior dance at Placid, so I think I heard worng.

plus this new team of Zhulins who looked like they had some potential at Placid, I can not remeber their names of course...

Senoir dance may actually be more exciting than junior dance this year! When is the last time that happened?? :roll:

Silverstein and Pekarak.. ahh, those were the days, man were they amazing. They just felt so much pressure to succeed at such a young age, Jamie burned out with stress and Justin just couldn't take it anymore. So they sort of self-destructed.

[kar5162]

I would think Navarro & Schmalo would compete at Easterns since they're both in NY...if not, I think the other club is within Pacific Coasts...I could be wrong though.

For Zhulin's team, I think you mean Moliver & Nouvikov (well, however you spell it anyway). They should be senior out of Easterns.

[Aaron W]

Originally posted by kar5162
I would think Navarro & Schmalo would compete at Easterns since they're both in NY...if not, I think the other club is within Pacific Coasts...I could be wrong though.

Robert actually represents the Queen City FSC in Cincinnati, OH, while Kimberly represents the Santa Rosa FSC in Santa Rosa, CA. So they have the option of competing at either Mids or Pac Coasts. They won't be competing at Easterns unless one of them have changed their club representation. The last time they competed in a qualifying event for the US Nationals, they competed at Midwestern Sectionals. So I'm hoping they stick with the Midwest and not go all the way out west. :)

[copythat]

It's great to see Pekarek back in action. In fact, as a former ice dancer (tested novice level) I went over to the Laurel rink Wednesday just to show my daughter the rink, facilities, etc. And there Justin was, skating with Hilary. Also on the ice was Kristin Fraser and Igor Lukaninn (sp), and Lydia Manon and Vitaly ??? plus another novice level team.

But I was most impressed with Gibbons & Pekarek. WoW!!! IMO, they looked better that Fraser/Lukanin who were what, 15th at worlds last year. And Justin is such a strong, smooth skater, handling Hilary very well. She is a strong skater as I noticed their speed in stroking and as they practiced compulsories. Both had great edges, nice lines, excellent speed and what came across to me was the attitude. They seemed really "together" in all their moves, encouraged each other, and just seem to like what they are doing. It was great to watch.

I don't know how they'll do at nationals, as Trillian mentioned in a post, but this team made me want to watch and then delivered. Mostly, their on-ice attitude was very positive and that was nice. It will be fun to watch their progress. Again, from what I know, they look like a top five team now, and I wouldn't be surprised if they would be 3rd or 4th. Just have to wait and see.

I'll check back on them in another month.

Lisa

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Aaron W
Robert actually represents the Queen City FSC in Cincinnati, OH, while Kimberly represents the Santa Rosa FSC in Santa Rosa, CA. So they have the option of competing at either Mids or Pac Coasts.

Yep, and though they competed out of Mids last time they did sectionals, I've heard they've chosen to go with Coasts this year. Not completely sure about that, but it would make sense because it would be an easier sectional.

Aaron, you mentioned Beckerdite & Kelling--I assume you meant Beckerdite & Traxler? :) I think there were rumors after Lake Placid that they've already split, but I don't remember for sure. There also seems to be the possibility of Zepeda & Hart having moved up from juniors, though I'm not sure what's up with them since I don't believe they actually competed at Lake Placid. Silverstein & Forsyth and Gibbons & Pekarek seem to be the only givens.

Lisa, you mentioned that you saw Manon and her new partner (I think his last name is Shalin)--what did you think, out of curiosity? Also, does anyone know if this team plans to compete this season, or if they'll wait until next year? If they do compete this year, they're a potential Mids team too since Manon was representing the Detroit SC last time she competed. And for that matter, what club is Matt Gates representing these days? I would expect Nussear & Gates to go to Easterns, but you never know.

[copythat]

Trillian,

I saw Lydia and Vitally skate for about 30 min. They were working on the choreography for their OD so a lot of stops and starts. They look good together size wise, he seems to be a stronger skater than her i.e. edges, back position, extension but it was hard to tell since they really never did any run thrus. I do know that they were working hard with Genrick Strentenski and alot of Russian was being spoken. :) I did overhear that they plan to compete this fall at Easterns so they will be busy for the next two months.

Lisa

[Amy L]

At Lake Placid, Mat Gates competed for Dallas FSC and Emilie was called "an independent member of the USFSA".

[haribobo]

I think their names are Lydia Manon and Vitaly Shalin.

Both Zepeda/Hart and Beckerdite/Traxler competed at Lake Placid as senior, though not in the same events. What they are up to since then, I have no idea. If these two teams are still together, there might actually be some teams that get cut at Sectionals this year!!

Also, don't expect a team competing at their first nationals to grab a gold, silver, or bronze. It might happen to some strong teams in an especially weak field, but don't expect it to happen this year. Unless one of these teams is injured the medalists will be L/T, B/A, and G/Petukhov. At the very earliest, N/G, S/F, and G/Pekarek will have a chance to medal at 2004 Nationals. But our top 3 are very strong and I don't think it's right to underestimate any of these teams.

Thanks for posting your observations of Gibbons/Pekarek, though! Sounds like they are having fun and are in for a bright future!

[A.H.Black]

I'm not familiar with Hilary Gibbons' background. Could someone please educate me. I did read the article but I'm sure someone else could flesh out the story a little bit. Thanks

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Amy L
At Lake Placid, Mat Gates competed for Dallas FSC and Emilie was called "an independent member of the USFSA".

That's right, Emilie's status as an independent member would probably date back to her move to Newington, since it seems most of the skaters who left Simsbury for Newington also left the Charter Oak FSC (Colette Appel, for example, who is also an independent member now). I'm not sure exactly how that works as far as competing at regionals, but skaters with that designation do tend to compete in the region where they train--which in Emilie's case would be New England. However, since Matt is a member of the Dallas FSC they do have the option of Southwesterns/Mids as well. I'd be surprised if they did that, but you never know.

Lisa, thanks for filling us in on Manon & Shalin. Interesting to hear that they'll be competing this season--I can't wait to see how they do!

[Jack]

Independent members still represent regions. Emilie is probably an ind. member of the Eastern Region. (You can be Eastern, Midwest and Pacific) It would be easier for them to skate at Easterns, location wise. Who's competing at Easterns this year? I know Goodwin and Obzansky have a bye because of thier international, does anyone else have a bye?

Glad to hear that about Justin and Hillary looking so good! Can't wait to see them compete this year.

[haribobo]

The Eastern teams I can think of:

Nussear/Gates (maybe)
Moxley/Kirsanov (maybe)
Goodwin/Obzansky (bye)
Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell
Moliver/Novikov
Manon/Shalin
Heisler/Palluel (?)

[haribobo]

Just thought I'd add...

Pacific Teams:

Young/Young
Munana/Munana
Navarro/Shmalo (maybe)

Did I forget any?

[legjumper]

LOL, IF Nussear & Gates decided to compete at Mids and not Easterns, it would definitely be quite the drama in TN! :)

[Impromptu]

Christine Zepeda and Nick Hart were at Lake Placid. I saw them compete in the Midnight Blues (they were 3rd of 3). They were on the list to compete in senior free dance and senior compulsory dance (all of which took place later in the competition), but withdrew. I don't know why (didn't really think anything about it at the time, as there were a couple other teams listed to compete who didn't either).

And yes, if Nussear and Gates decide to compete in the Midwestern Section (and for purely selfish reasons, I hope they do, because I would love to see them skate again, they're extremely enjoyable to watch), that's going to make for an exciting competition.

Of course with my luck, most of the dance events at Mids will end up opposite senior men, which is also going to be a pretty exciting competition.

[Leela]

Zepeda/Hart (if they're still skating) could possibly go to the West Coast Sectional, as I believe she is originally from the Seattle area.
What if the Midwest Sectional competition was Gregory/Petukov, Nussear/Gates, Silverstein/Forsyth, Gibbons/Pekarek----wouldn't that be a good one!!!

[Impromptu]

Originally posted by Leela
What if the Midwest Sectional competition was Gregory/Petukov, Nussear/Gates, Silverstein/Forsyth, Gibbons/Pekarek----wouldn't that be a good one!!!

Unless the rules about byes have changed, Gregory and Petukhov ought to have a bye straight to Nationals because they won a medal last year.

[CanAmSk8ter]

When is Vienna Cup? I assume it's early enough that Emilie and Matt still have to do Sectionals?

[Amy L]

Vienna Cup is in Oct 16-19

[Jack]

Originally posted by Leela
Zepeda/Hart (if they're still skating) could possibly go to the West Coast Sectional, as I believe she is originally from the Seattle area.


They are still skating, they didnt' finish the comp. in Placid because of injury. She is from the Seattle area but now represents the same Texas club as Nick so they have to go to Mids this year.

Man, mids is going to rock! :D Of course I'm stuck out here on the boring east coast, guess I"ll have to settle for a stellar mens field, yawn... lol

[viv64]

lets make a list of each team in which section they are competing. the novice team mentioned that was in laural was mathew and catlin dail

[legjumper]

Originally posted by haribobo
The Eastern teams I can think of:

Nussear/Gates (maybe)
Moxley/Kirsanov (maybe)
Goodwin/Obzansky (bye)
Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell
Moliver/Novikov
Manon/Shalin
Heisler/Palluel (?)

According to their websites, Nussear/Gates are competing at Easterns.

Also, I didn't see any Sectionals listed on Navarro/Shmalo's website, so is it possible that they have a bye?

[viv64]

Interesting, does that mean that some of these teams will not be at nationals? That would be too bad because they are all good/strong teams, except I am not sure who the last team you mentioned is:D

[Artistic Skaters]

All the Senior teams usually go to Nationals as long as there are open slots available. If their sectional is full, they can take an available space in another one.

Best wishes to Gibbons & Pekarek!

[Artistic Skaters]

* In 2002 there were 14 senior dance teams
* In 2001 there were 7 senior dance teams

I haven't totaled them up for this year, but looks like everyone will get to go & it should be a good year for dance.

[icedancer2285]

Can more than 4 teams go to Nationals from Sectionals if there are slots available from another section? Can someone explain this please. Are there any rules on this? Where can I find them please.
Thank you.
:?:

[what?meworry?]

wow---great thread. i, too, am really excited about the seniors this year. i can't remember when senior was as exciting as junior since i got to see gorsha sur compete!

some points. young/young have been removed from the "c" envelope and i believe that indicates they are not competing this year.

i really look forward to seeing silverstein/forsythe. i think, based on my memory of their physical appearance, they may have a fantastic team "look" in addition to both being great skaters. jamie is also a really nice kid and i really, really want to see her shine again.

pekarek abandoned her. since he's a class human being too, i'm torn between upset and acceptance. oh well, angst is hell, but i kinda wish s/f beat p/and his girlfriend this season.

gregory/petukov's coach has worked a miracle! he is the coach of the future! i think they will place 3rd easily. they have the drive and resourses to do what is needed to do.

l/t need a miracle and some serious work ethic to hold position, and actually, i think they should end up behind belbin/agosto at nationals.

i like shmalo/navarro because they're clearly having so much fun doing this when they compete. but they are not of the same caliber as the others in pure dance technique. so what. they're having a great time and i'll cheer and clap loudly.

bekerdite/kelling/traxler are no longer any team(s), last i heard from my friends in colorado. (and contrary to popular belief, according to that and other sources there, gregory and her pet. haven't worked with hess since before sectionals last year.)

question! do any of you know really for sure if g-r/m are competing senior this season. i am asking because the field is really full and it looks as though the top half spots are already taken.

neusser/gates looked really fine at lake placid, but their od music was not proper according to the isu definitions of required music. they must have been heavily deducted, because they skated it well, i hope they have changed the music or they will handicap themselves at nationals.

i have no clue about mannon/vitali, she won juniors with a different partner, she's showy but....

z/hart are really nice folk, i hope they skate well, but with the number of big guns in senior this year, they are not likely to make the top half.

goodwin/obzansky were robbed last year. i really like them and hope they will get fair judging this year. that said, it will be difficult for them to make the top 6. in fact, i think the big battle will be for the middle rank.

and so, after all our collective whining and complaints over the past few years, senior ice dance lives! and it's gonna be great fun at nationals!

junior, too, is going to be great to watch. i wouldn't miss this nationals for anything this year!

[BootyDancer]

I hope I don't get flamed for saying this. But I think it is unfair to say that Justin "abandoned" Jamie. It was a very private matter, and I believe any story you would hear would be from either one side or the other. I think both of them are great people and part of growing up is learning about yourself, and especially in skating, things happen. I think that the situation came from both sides of the matter, and they are both good people and great skaters. Best of luck to them both.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
pekarek abandoned her.
I disagree. But by all means give us examples to support such an unsubstantiated negative assertion now that you have posted it on a public message board. :( :(

[Mazurka Girl]

Good luck to Justin with the development of his new team!!! I hope he has a terrific season. :D

[AxelAnnie22]

I don't have a problem with things being private...........BUT I WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED! LOL!

And, what is the comment about L/T and their work ethic? I think they are gorgeous skaters, and one of the many things I don't understand about ice dance is why they don't place higher. 8O

[CanAmSk8ter]

Originally posted by what?meworry?


neusser/gates looked really fine at lake placid, but their od music was not proper according to the isu definitions of required music. they must have been heavily deducted, because they skated it well, i hope they have changed the music or they will handicap themselves at nationals.



They have changed their music. I haven't been able to identify the new music yet, but they did lose middle section.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by what?meworry?

pekarek abandoned her. since he's a class human being too, i'm torn between upset and acceptance. oh well, angst is hell, but i kinda wish s/f beat p/and his girlfriend this season.

That's quite an extreme statement. One could argue the opposite: she took a lot of time off and left him wondering what was next, if I recall correctly.

But you know, people grow, things change, dance/pair couples get together and break up all the time. Their partnership didn't work so they both moved on and both have found good partners. So it seems to have worked out for the best. I wish them all good luck and hope that all the fans/media can keep the so-called Pekarek-Silverstien animosity to themselves and not force it on S/F and P/G.

[Mazurka Girl]

I agree manleywoman. It's inappropriate, not to mention it's low class to post one's own personal opinion as derogatory fact without any supporting information. I really question the motives when someone is sniping like this & in addition wants a skater to lose a competition based on the reason shared rather than the quality of the actual skating.

[Trillian]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
some points. young/young have been removed from the "c" envelope and i believe that indicates they are not competing this year.

That would have to be the reason. Add the fact that they weren't at Lake Placid--I was wondering about that, but I hadn't noticed that they were no longer on the national team. I wonder what's happened.

[what?meworry?]

1) jamie went through a really rough time both mentally and physically, for a while; justin left dsc and did other things; jamie is an incredibly strong human being, recovered and popped back but justin didn't return to give it another season, he could have chosen to do so. they were a brilliant, promising team, so much so that it would have been worth an attempt for another season. yes, i'm deeply disappointed that they are no longer a team, she had the rough time of it, not him. he is a really nice guy, but the fact of a new partner during a season jamie also is competing, clearly demonstrates why i feel he abandoned the opportunity to attempt another season, ie, her.

2) when l/t left dsc, the detroit free press published a detailed article very specifically discussing the matter of work ethic. it was an issue of the amount of time and efficiency of practice. folks i know and trust have observed that they have not modified practice much.

p.s. it's not that i want justin and his girlfriend to "loose", but that i really want to see jamie and brandon to rank right up there. i admire jamie's spunk and want to see her rewarded for her great comeback. (this is after all, a very competitive sport and by its very nature requires a ranking. teams don't "loose" it's just that someone "wins" and others rank after them in some order or another.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
...she had the rough time of it, not him.


That's completely up for debate, and it seems you heard one side of the story and are therefore passing a whole lot of judgement. I can't imagine it was at all easy for him to see his partnership break up right before the Olympics when that's what he'd been training for his whole life. I imagine he was quite upset in his own right.

he is a really nice guy, but the fact of a new partner during a season jamie also is competing, clearly demonstrates why i feel he abandoned the opportunity to attempt another season, ie, her.

No, it may just mean he missed skating and wanted to get back into the sport that he's trained for his whole life, but needed another partner. That's hardly abandoning her at all, considering she publicly announced her new partnership long before he did. So it seems she wanted another opportunity to skate regardless of Justin. They both want to skate, just not with each other, and what's so wrong with that?

I think Mazurka Girl is dead on: I have to question your motives as to why you want to make him look bad and hope that he loses because of anything other than how he skates at competition.

[adrianchew]

I was asked to look into the topic - so far it seems to have stayed to a discussion, albeit with speculation - but I'll let it continue for a bit - I'm interested to see what all this is leading up to. Perhaps someone might post the other side of the coin/story/perspective for us, and everyone can make up their own minds? ~adrianchew~

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
1) jamie went through a really rough time both mentally and physically, for a while; justin left dsc and did other things; jamie is an incredibly strong human being, recovered and popped back but justin didn't return to give it another season, he could have chosen to do so. they were a brilliant, promising team, so much so that it would have been worth an attempt for another season. yes, i'm deeply disappointed that they are no longer a team, she had the rough time of it, not him. he is a really nice guy, but the fact of a new partner during a season jamie also is competing, clearly demonstrates why i feel he abandoned the opportunity to attempt another season, ie, her.
S/P officially split before the 2001 Nationals. Here is the press release to confirm the sequence of events for anyone who needs a review:
http://www.usfsa.org/news/2000-01/silvpeka-end.htm

I don't believe this meets the average reasonable person's definition of "abandonment". :roll:

S/P split, despite any delusions, desires, or perceived commitments some fans may have had about them coming back for another season. The suggestion that "she had a rough time of it, not him" is also inaccurate & incredibly biased & doesn't even come close to acknowledging the serious problems both partners had to deal with.

It seems to me like Pekarek is competing this year based on the fortunate timing of his new partner passing her required dance tests, not because of someone's paranoid beliefs that he's somehow purposely doing it because Jamie decided to compete this year. I'm all for critiquing skaters & skating, but accuracy is always a good approach.

[BootyDancer]

I think that it would be unfair for Justin to have to wait around to see if Jamie would recover/skate again. I don't think that Justin ever had intentions to even skate again. He and his girlfriend started skating together just for fun. I think she was just interested in trying dance. But I think that both partnerships seem great, Nationals is going to be fun, and Mids for that matter. I am looking forward to seeing all of them.

I think that sometimes male skaters get a bad reputation, and in return skaters/parents feel personally hurt when a male skater chooses to move on. I remember being a young girl, and I certainly didn't make it easy for coaches/parents/partners! :) And it isn't always emotions that are the cause of a skater moving on. There are so many issues in skating.....body type, matching height, money...so many things. It's too hard to speculate in these circumstances or truly understand.

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by Mazurka Girl

It seems to me like Pekarek is competing this year based on the fortunate timing of his new partner passing her required dance tests, not because of someone's paranoid beliefs that he's somehow purposely doing it because Jamie decided to compete this year. I'm all for critiquing skaters & skating, but accuracy is always a good approach.

Right on, Mazurka Girl. I meant to address that in my previous post. It's ludicrous to think Pekarek's going through all this training and hard work every day with his new partner just to spite Silverstein in her "come-back" year. Rediculous.

[Skatewind]

I like the guy. what?meworry? evidently has an axe to grind. I give credit to Hilary Gibbons (aka "his girlfriend"- do you refer to other teams as "Punsalen & her husband" or "Grinkov & wife"?- probably not) for passing all those tests & taking a chance with dance. According to the press release, they are being realistic about the work cut out for them. This is going to be a good year for dance, I look forward to seeing all the new teams.

[what?meworry?]

the conclusions and logic of the last several posts aren't representing the statement's meaning correctly. i reread what i posted and can't figure out how that conclusion was reached.

that sentence was to illustrate that: 1) both justin and jamie are currently skating and 2) they could have returned together as a team since neither quit---both are skating, now, as seniors, and justin could have chosen to enter this season with jamie. it does not mean that justin jumped into competition to spite jamie! justin has been skating with his girlfriend for quite a while, it's only the official press release that is new. and, it carries no commentary plus or minus about his new partner.

i have an opinion, not an ax. and, my opinion is related to the stated usfsa goal of usa skaters/teams winning international medals, which jamie/justin were clearly destined to do. it also relates to the probability that they would have been strong world and olympic contenders sooner rather than later. as it stands, both new teams are unknown as teams internationally. and, right now among the top 3 usa senior teams, only l/t are both citizens, b/a as of last report won't have citizenship by the olympics and g/p might, but no guarantee.

among the up-and-coming teams are these two new teams, but this situation just begs for "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush" comment. maybe each will be as great as the original team, but only time will tell and they will need to build new reputations internationally, whereas jamie/justin already were extremely well received. remember, the focus is on international medals at worlds and olympics.:roll:

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
...and my opinion is relate to the goal of winning international medals for the usa, which jamie/justin were doing well. it also relates to the probability that they would have been strong world and olympic contenders sooner rather than later. as it stands, both new teams are unknown as teams. and right now among the top 3 usa senior teams, only l/t are both citizens, b/a as of last report won't have citizenship by the olympics and g/p might, but no guarantee.

Yes, S/P were more experienced and tested among the international crowd, but they were also visibly miserable. So what's the point? Justin's happier now with a new partner, even if she is completely inexperienced, and Jamie's in a better place now than she was in her life a few years ago. Seems to me everyone is better off where they are now.

I think their collective happiness is way more important than winning medals. Why can enjoy a medal if all you remember when you see it was the misery you went through to earn it?

[what?meworry?]

they were not visibly miserable with one another in competition. they were brilliant and successful.

they were fine with one another until outside circumstances precipitated emotional/physical distress. the distress affected the relationship. once that stuff was overcome, the opening existed to reinstate the team, and start anew.

again, this is my opinion of what i would have liked to see.

[Artistic Skaters]

LOL. Confused logic? I tend to think your message has come across loud & clear. Skaters are human beings, not medal machines for the U.S. It's their decision & it might be better to simply let it go, since many of the remarks sound awfully petty at this point. As you indicate in your own signature line, "life's not fair".

[NiceIce]

As far as I am concerned 99% of the posts here are opinions, sometimes based on fact, rumours, gossip, but still, just opinions.

If all the posts were "I love every skater, and every team, and I can only say sugary things about all of them" then I wouldnt bother to look at any of the topics listed.

Why some people get so outraged if a poster voices criticism of a skater or team is beyond my understanding.
I cant imagine that any of the previous posts on this topic offended someone sooooooooooooooo much that they ran and "told on" a poster to Adrian!! thats hysterical

Try not to take yourself and your opinions too seriously reagarding skating, and learn to enjoy the challenge of differing views.

As for Jamie and Justin....it WAS a big dramatic split surrounded by gossip that we all still obviously enjoy contemplating. It is like a soap opera. She became sickly thin, and he left town, and tongues are still wagging about it and always will. Nobody was an innocent victim so I am not "upset" about it at all; just glad to see we have many new teams this year for a change.

:lol:

[Jack]

Originally posted by NiceIce

Try not to take yourself and your opinions too seriously reagarding skating, and learn to enjoy the challenge of differing views.

As for Jamie and Justin....it WAS a big dramatic split surrounded by gossip that we all still obviously enjoy contemplating. It is like a soap opera. She became sickly thin, and he left town, and tongues are still wagging about it and always will. Nobody was an innocent victim so I am not "upset" about it at all; just glad to see we have many new teams this year for a change.

:lol:

Thank you NiceIce!! I was jsut about to post the exact same thing, but I couldn't have said it better.

I only have one thing to add, just because someone has an opinion about a certain team or a certain skater does not mean that they have an agenda. For example, I can't stand teams from Boston. Why?? well, I could go on forever, but perhaps it's only constipation!! who knows. :D My point is, there's no need to jump all over a poster just becuase you don't happned to agree with them. I know we all get a bit heated and passionate when it comes to our favorite skaters, especially dance for some reason. But I think if we keep our cool, and a VERY good sense of humor, we could have some GREAT discussions this season!! We obviously have some intelligent and skating-educated people posting here... yes, there will be gossip, but that's the fun of the boards!! Let's have fun!!

::Edited to add that I woke up this morning thinking, oh no!! someone is going ot read this and think I"m saying that I think Boston teams look constipated!! :oops: What I meant (my, er, feeble attempt at a joke) to say is that you never know why a poster doesn't like a certain team, I coul dbe sitting here typing rotten things about L/T, but maybe what I"m relly upset about is my lack of bowel movements....:lol: Please excuse my "potty" humor!

[what?meworry?]

thank you nice'n'jack! i was begining to feel that i was being nibbled to death by ducks. i don't expect everyone to agree, but i expect (and respect others') right to express educated opinions.

fyi, i recieved some high quality, competent pm's from the counter-debators and responded in kind. i appreciated their opinions and shared additional information. even though we disagreed on the basic idea, we shared some additional information upon which their and my feelings were based. so, thanks to them too (manley....and booty, too).

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Jack
Thank you NiceIce!! I was jsut about to post the exact same thing, but I couldn't have said it better.

I only have one thing to add, just because someone has an opinion about a certain team or a certain skater does not mean that they have an agenda. For example, I can't stand teams from Boston. Why?? well, I could go on forever, but perhaps it's only constipation!! who knows. :D look constipated!! :oops: What I meant (my, er, feeble attempt at a joke) to say is that you never know why a poster doesn't like a certain team, I coul dbe sitting here typing rotten things about L/T, but maybe what I"m relly upset about is my lack of bowel movements....:lol: Please excuse my "potty" humor! With all those baked beans......how could you be constipated? Also, I always thought skaters in Boston skated really fast.......they have that "after-burner" thing going :P

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by adrianchew
I was asked to look into the topic - so far it seems to have stayed to a discussion, albeit with speculation - but I'll let it continue for a bit - I'm interested to see what all this is leading up to. Perhaps someone might post the other side of the coin/story/perspective for us, and everyone can make up their own minds? ~adrianchew~

I wish somebody would just say WHAT HAPPENED. It is not like it is such a big deal. Whatever it was, was probably less of a hoo-haa than all the specultation.

Also, I want to add that it is so important to keep our discussion about SKATING, and not about POSTERS. Because someone doesn't share our particular opinion, of "love" of a particular skater, doesn't mean they are bad, horrible, or out to get someone. Just means they see things differently. It is not personal. As Irina says "it is just sport".

As to Jamie and Justin, they were so spectacular. They were the first team I ever watched, that I wanted to watch again. The world of ice dance is so mysterious, and emotional----with all those Russians emoting all over the place----I could never figure it out. Jamie and Justin brought a joy and a spark that was totally brilliant and infectious. I still don't understand how they could even THINK of splitting up. I know they had their reasons, and all that stuff. But, didn't they realize it isn't about them? It is all about me! :D

I wish them both well. And, who knows, maybe now we will have two spectular Jamie and Justin teams, and not just one.

[Jack]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
[COLOR=royalblue]I wish somebody would just say WHAT HAPPENED. It is not like it is such a big deal. Whatever it was, was probably less of a hoo-haa than all the specultation.



You know when two friends break-up, or go through a divorce, and you get both sides of the story from the couple, you get stories from the other friends, co-workers, etc? And you try to piece together exactly "what" happened? Well, everyone who pieces that story together will do it a little bit differently and come up with thier own versions. This is what has happened with Jamie and Justin. So it's kind of impossible to say "This is why they broke up and this is what happened" I don't think even Jamie or Justin could do that. So we're left with nothing but speculation about what went wrong. :(

[legjumper]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
[BI wish them both well. And, who knows, maybe now we will have two spectular Jamie and David teams, and not just one. [/B]
Except neither Justin Pekarek nor Brandon Forsyth is named David. ;)

[what?meworry?]

good comment, jack. seeing so much of the drama was so sad. you're articulation of the process is better than i was able to express. thanks.

neither was at fault, both suffered loss.

unfortunately, brandon and hillary are sort of victims too in that they have the shadow of the previous team over the new partnerships. we all will have our hopes and opinions about who should place where, but the current new partners should understand that they are respected. i hope each new team will skate the best they are at the moment. but also. that we observers also have our own personal preferances and hopes for the success of teams.

i.e., don't let the turkeys get you down!

[quark]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
1) jamie went through a really rough time both mentally and physically, for a while; justin left dsc and did other things; ....

2) when l/t left dsc, the detroit free press published a detailed article very specifically discussing the matter of work ethic. ....

p.s. it's not that i want justin and his girlfriend to "loose", but that i really want to see jamie and brandon to rank right up there. i admire jamie's spunk and want to see her rewarded for her great comeback. ....


I'm amazed at the way false statements and half truths are put forward as the basis for opinions. I'm equally amazed at the way public announcements and newspaper articles are quoted as facts. Statements made by and for these skaters were meant to satisfy many criteria, the least of which was to describe the true reasons for their breakup.

During the time period in question, the last few months of their partnership, I spent a lot of time at the DSC. Although dance practice is restricted, I was able to "sneak" in once in a while. It was very clear that there were significant problems with their practices, just as L/T had shown significant problems before they left Detroit.

First, L/T. I'ts always difficult to know how much personal problems between partners affect a skating partnership. But, in the case of L/T, it was obvious that their off-ice relationship caused problems with their on-ice training. I won't discuss this subject any further other than to say what Paul Duchesnay once told me, essentially....."Hope that dance partners don't date off the ice. Any problems will be brought onto the ice." I don't believe work ethics of L/T were their main problem. Their practices were disruptive, and according to my information, led to a "mutual" agreement with the coaching staff that they should train elsewhere. At the time it seemed like a good decision. After all, Jaime Silverstein and Justin Pekarek were on the way up.

Jaime and Justin are both unbelievably talented skaters, and continued success in the world of ice dancing was almost a sure thing. Grabbing the brass ring of the first USA World Championship in ice dance within a few years seemed possible. They were certainly going to compete at the 2000 Olympics! Their skating partnership was fine, at least within the norm. Justin didn't cause their breakup, didn't want it, and didn't know why it was happening. Jaime was the one who had difficulties. And, it wasn't with Justin.

The problem was coaching. Very few of you are aware of the brutal methods used by Russian coaches who honestly believe that's the only way to train a world class, competitive skater. Believe me, skating under such coaches is a job, not fun at the rink. Unless you're willing to give up almost everything to achieve success, you'll never make it under some of these coaches. Personal weight, work ethic, body motion, flexibility, weight lifting, ballroom dancing, ballet, expression, music, and costumes are all managed. You have to survive belittlement and not lose your self-confidence. How many of you think you could handle this kind of situation? Without deep family support, it's very, very difficult. And, I'm not even talking about the financial costs, including $1,000 dance costumes. Regardless of the physical and mental fallout of such training, coaching methods are where it all starts. Some skaters handle pressures differently than others, and age is a factor. I'm very confident that the mental and physical stress created by come coaching and public pressures would cause any reasonable, intelligent, person to question why they're subjecting themselves to such abuse.

Fact: Jaime decided to stop skating. Justin did not.
Fact: Jaime decided months later to return to ice dance.
Fact: Justin didn't want to renew their partnership.
Fact: Jaime began to look for a new partner.
Fact: Justin decided to skate with his girlfriend, not at Detroit.

You can argue all you want about who should have done what. I don't believe either party bears any fault. Coaching led to this breakup, even though there was no intent to do so. Once the breakup occured, IMO, Justin was justifiably upset at losing his chance at the 2000 Olympics, and I can see why he wouln't want to risk that partnership again. I hope Justin finds a new love for skating, and I don't care whether it's with a girlfriend or not.

Jaime is a wonderful, intelligent woman. I agree that she's had a remarkable comeback from both mental and physical stresses that most of us would buckle under. I wish her the best. Unfortunately, I don't have confidence that the new partnership with Brandon will work out.

[Jack]

Thanks Quark, for that point of view, but don't forget that it's simply the way you saw the situation, so it's really only your opinion. Yes, you got a few things right, but you also got a few things wrong, but of course that's only MY opinion. :P

[Artistic Skaters]

Saying "he deserted her" is taking a factual stance. Saying "I felt he deserted her because I wanted them to stay together" or whatever was said a page later is expressing an opinion. Big difference between the two. That's what I see as the thing causing discord on this thread, not that anyone is saying no one can have an opposite view or has to like or dislike anyone's skating.

[Anjelica]

quark: Thank you for an insightful and objective post about the situations at DSC in those days. You are right on in your assessments of everything that was going on. Put the blame where it belongs and you did!

[Leela]

Quark says "The problem was coaching."

Can't take such a complex human situation and reduce it to only one element.
And why then, if the coaches at Detroit were so culpable, would Jamie choose to continue training there with her new partner? :?:

[Mazurka Girl]

My objection, apparently shared by others and which I indicated in my earlier posts, was with what?meworry? presenting things as fact with no supporting information. If you don't want anyone challenging your viewpoint, then support assertions when made and write them as your own opinion, as was done in later posts.

The issue, at least to me, is clearly not "I love every skater, and every team, and I can only say sugary things about all of them" (which might be a good topic for another thread on another day), but the issue is effective writing, communication and expressing opinion as opinion.

[JS]

Originally posted by quark

The problem was coaching. Very few of you are aware of the brutal methods used by Russian coaches who honestly believe that's the only way to train a world class, competitive skater. Believe me, skating under such coaches is a job, not fun at the rink. Unless you're willing to give up almost everything to achieve success, you'll never make it under some of these coaches. Personal weight, work ethic, body motion, flexibility, weight lifting, ballroom dancing, ballet, expression, music, and costumes are all managed. You have to survive belittlement and not lose your self-confidence.


This is very interesting observation since everybody thinks Russian coaches are so great.

I personally encounted a couple of extremely snobish former-semi-famous-Russian-skates-turned-into-not-so-famous-coaches. They hardly say "Hi" to anybody at the rink. I heard them make nasty remarks about chubby girls skating. Sort of "Oh, look at this - how disgusting - such fat girls should not be allowed nowhere near close to the ice because that's how things are in Russia " (by the way, those girls were not fat at all) Ditto for the skating adults. BTW, In Russia, adults don't skate and Russian coaches basically think adults should be kept away from the ice too.

Luckily, most Americans don't alway understand what those coaches say to each other ...

By the way, last I heard Pekarek is now training with Liz Coats and Genrich (sp?) Sretenski. Liz used to work at DSC. And Sretenski is of course Russian. Do you think they employ the same brutal Russian methods? Or do you think they are somehow different ?

[manleywoman]

Well, I don't speak russian and I'm an adult skater, but I take lessons from Gingrich's wife Julia (also russian) and she is one of the most supportive coaches of kids and adults alike. And Gingrich teaches many adult skaters ice dance at our rink. So from my experience they do not employ the same brutal methods as others have documented with other russian coaches.

Plus all their students...Justin and Hilary, Vitaly and Lydia, and Igor Lukanin and Kristin all teach other adults plus help out with Learn to Skate classes.

[quark]

Originally posted by Leela
Quark says "The problem was coaching."

Can't take such a complex human situation and reduce it to only one element.
And why then, if the coaches at Detroit were so culpable, would Jamie choose to continue training there with her new partner? :?:

Coaching is not just one element. Elite skaters spend 4-6 hours a day doing what coaches have programmed. School may take another 4 hours. Homework may take another 2-4 hours. Put it all together and you have a routine that leaves little room for "fun". I agree that specific personalities will react differently. But, the pressure cooker atmosphere can lead to exactly what happened to Jaime. In some professions, we call it "burnout".

Your question about Jamie returning to the DSC is a cvery valid observation. I have two observations:

1)

[quark]

Originally posted by quark
Coaching is not just one element. Elite skaters spend 4-6 hours a day doing what coaches have programmed. School may take another 4 hours. Homework may take another 2-4 hours. Put it all together and you have a routine that leaves little room for "fun". I agree that specific personalities will react differently. But, the pressure cooker atmosphere can lead to exactly what happened to Jaime. In some professions, we call it "burnout".

Your question about Jamie returning to the DSC is very valid. I have two observations:

1)

OOPs. Hit the wrong button. Continuing:

1) The fallout rate for dance teams at the DSC over the years is very well known. The coaching staff has been unable to keep good Junior teams together for longer-term competition in the Senior division. I believe the only four teams that have survived the last 10 years training at the DSC are Punsalan/Swallow, Lang/Tchernyshev, Belbin/Agosto, and Wing/Lowe, three teams of which are made up of much older team members when they started at the DSC. I'd like to point out that Justin is no longer training at the DSC, and the relatively new team of Ralph/Omeara, with great potential, have just split up.

2) There's no question that the DSC has one of the most successful records at developing winning teams in competition in the Junior division, both Nationally, and Internationally. IMO, I'm sure Jaime believes Shpilband is the best coach in the country at creating a winning team. She's one of the best he's ever had. If you decided to give "skating" another try, where would you go? As long as you can stand the pressures again, you'd probably go right back to where you were most successful.

That's my two bits worth.

[speedy]

OK, obviously the coach being alluded to here by previous posters is Shpilband. I have heard these things before and question why a parent would subject their child to such methods, no matter what the increased chances are of attaining their goal of medals and acclaim in the world of dance. Jamie in particular had a serious battle with something that has killed other women (and even men). Was this condition brought on by the coaches' strict methods? Or was she genetically subject to such a condition without the coaching pressure? Who knows...but once the condition is apparent (whether it be bulimia or anorexia) I'm sure most of us would be appalled if the parents did not step in and immediately have the condition treated and if necessary, end the training, if the skater herself didn't do it on her own. It appears that Jamie is now healthy and ready to try again...good for her, she's amazing. But I too wonder why go back to the same club and same coach and risk these issues again? I am no DSC insider so obviously she knows what she's doing and thinks she can handle it, more power to her. The issues with L&T leaving DSC also seem to go back to this coach and their work ethic...so Quark, if I understand you correctly, their work ethic was not good enough for this coach and they agreed it would be better to leave for Zhulin? When you say their practices were disruptive does that mean disruptive to DSC or just to the team itself? Now that L&T have also left Zhulin, will there now be a "work ethic" problem with Tarasova since she seems to also have a reputation for working her skaters hard (at least harder than Zhulin)? I suppose we'll find out soon enough. U.S. ice dance is certainly not boring this year! Nationals should be quite a scene.

[quark]

Originally posted by speedy
... Who knows...but once the condition is apparent (whether it be bulimia or anorexia).... It appears that Jamie is now healthy and ready to try again...good for her, she's amazing. But I too wonder why go back to the same club and same coach and risk these issues again?

The issues with L&T leaving DSC also seem to go back to this coach and their work ethic...so Quark, if I understand you correctly, their work ethic was not good enough for this coach and they agreed it would be better to leave for Zhulin? When you say their practices were disruptive does that mean disruptive to DSC or just to the team itself? Now that L&T have also left Zhulin, will there now be a "work ethic" problem with Tarasova since she seems to also have a reputation for working her skaters hard (at least harder than Zhulin)? I suppose we'll find out soon enough. U.S. ice dance is certainly not boring this year! Nationals should be quite a scene. To the best of my knowledge, bulimia or anorexia were never illnesses that applied, or should apply, to Jaime. She was unsually thin the last few months before quitting. But, there are other reasons for going a little too far in not eating properly, other than an illiness. I know a number of skaters who primarily eat "junk food", and don't get enough protein to replace the tremendous loss of energy when skating. I used the term "burnout", which I believe is more appropriate for us lay people to describe the condition of no longer wanting to do what you loved to do, for whatever set of reasons. In this case, returning to a situation that led to problems is using your intelligence to understand what happened, and deciding whether you can protect yourself in the future. I assume Jaime made that determination in the positive.

No, I didn't say that L/T had a bad work ethic. I applied the term disruptive to the team itself. There were many practices where a loud disagreement between the two resulted in their skating off the ice for the rest of a session. You can't coach a team that behaves in this fashion, and it has absolutely nothing to do with coaching technique. Maybe, by the time they worked with Zhulin, these squabbles were no longer an issue. I don't know. I sincerely wish they could have kept their disputes off the ice. They might still be at the DSC where, IMO, they had one of the best choreographers in the United States for ice dance. They both have so much talent, I hope they find what they're looking for before Peter gets past the age of being able to do all those fantastic lifts.

[quark]

Originally posted by manleywoman
Well, I don't speak russian and I'm an adult skater, but I take lessons from Gingrich's wife Julia (also russian) and she is one of the most supportive coaches of kids and adults alike. And Gingrich teaches many adult skaters ice dance at our rink. So from my experience they do not employ the same brutal methods as others have documented with other russian coaches.

Plus all their students...Justin and Hilary, Vitaly and Lydia, and Igor Lukanin and Kristin all teach other adults plus help out with Learn to Skate classes. I stand corrected. I shouldn't have implied that ALL Russian coaches have brutal coaching techniques. However, I contend that a number of Russian coaches with the greatest reputations for achieving success with their teams are steeped in the Russian traditions of "all work and no play, makes Ivan a winner". This was part of the way poor Russian skaters got themselves, and their families, into the top social strata in the Soviet Union. It worked for the few who had the talent, and who could get through the system. Other skaters who couldn't make it just didn't matter.

I'm sure there are a few coaches from the old Soviet Union who just didn't feel the need to follow difficult and unfair rules of a system, who really want to work with their students, not just tell them what to do. I hope they are successful in this country. I firmly believe it's not necessary to teach with a "stick". Unfortunately, in ice dance, we haven't had a really successful American coach, either born here, or emigrated here, who knows how to do coach this way. Until then, every elite skater and their family have to decide how much they will sacrifice their mental comfort in order to follow a difficult system that has been successful at making medal winners throughout International competition. You decide.

[Mayra]

Originally posted by quark
OOPs. Hit the wrong button. Continuing:

1) The fallout rate for dance teams at the DSC over the years is very well known. The coaching staff has been unable to keep good Junior teams together for longer-term competition in the Senior division. I believe the only four teams that have survived the last 10 years training at the DSC are Punsalan/Swallow, Lang/Tchernyshev, Belbin/Agosto, and Wing/Lowe, three teams of which are made up of much older team members when they started at the DSC. I'd like to point out that Justin is no longer training at the DSC, and the relatively new team of Ralph/Omeara, with great potential, have just split up.



The fallout rate for dance teams in the USA in general is very well known,junior as well as senior. This isn't just a DSC /Shpilband phenomenon.

[Anjelica]

No, it isn't JUST a DSC/Shpilband phenomenon; but it IS/has been a real problem there. Again, quark, you sound like you were there and I do appreciate your realistic and knowledgeable assessment of the situation there. Unlike 'what?me? worry?' who consistently states things as facts that are in reality half-truths.

[Miss.Issippi]

What I find intresting is Jaime and Brandon being comfortable
training at the same facility with the same coach as Tanith and Ben. At one time (not too long ago) Jaime with Justin were the top Jr. team at DSC and now Tanith and Ben are the top Sr. team. Maybe that's a good thing to bring out the best in everyone. I hope so, because I like both of these teams and can't wait to see them compete at Nationals.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by Anjelica
No, it isn't JUST a DSC/Shpilband phenomenon; but it IS/has been a real problem there. Again, quark, you sound like you were there and I do appreciate your realistic and knowledgeable assessment of the situation there. Unlike 'what?me? worry?' who consistently states things as facts that are in reality half-truths.

Angie, dearie, regarding l/t, may 18,2000 detroit freepress ..."what they were missing is hard work." that translates into "work ethic" and anyone who could see and hear could tell they weren't functioning at an effective work level for their status. look it up.

quark give the real down'n'dirty details. they argued a lot. and that further diminshed the effectiveness of the time they spent on the ice (and yes, it disrupted the other skaters efforts). naomi would get off the ice and just sit. there are enough folk who observed the reality so that just sputtering and fuming and tossing out snotty commentary won't make any difference. tsk, tsk.

while is isn't just an igor phenomon (what other coach(es) have had the same problem?), it has been concentrated at dsc and most noticable because of the degree of promise his teams have displayed. so far b/a are the only survivors. (this doesn't include the teams who came to him as adults and experienced seniors).

[Skatewind]

Originally posted by what?meworry?
there are enough folk who observed the reality so that just sputtering and fuming and tossing out snotty commentary won't make any difference. tsk, tsk.
Perhaps it would have been a good idea to take your own advice before you typed out all the "Justin abandoned Jamie" commentary. Because it sounded like the same thing you now find deplorable. :P

[Anjelica]

Ummmmmmm.....well for one if you check the FP article which I am quite familiar with btw; you will find that the statement about L/T's work ethic is none other than a quote from Igor. Perhaps a little subjective and biased. After all I don't believe anyone can become a 4X US champion and 8th in the World and an Olympic athlete without quite a bit of hard work. But I know you what?me?worry?; you do enjoy being the Devil's advocate, don't you dear?

[Jim D]

This thread is degenerating into a personal argument as opposed to a reasonable discussion. If the trend continues this thread will be locked. ~~ Jim D

[what?meworry?]

yes.

particularly with folk who wish to rewrite history, the "myth" creators.

nonetheless, discussions, opinions, and exchange of information remains the strength of this and other such boards.:D

a lock might very well be in order here.

[what?meworry?]

Originally posted by quark
I'm sure there are a few coaches from the old Soviet Union who just didn't feel the need to follow difficult and unfair rules of a system, who really want to work with their students, not just tell them what to do. I hope they are successful in this country. I firmly believe it's not necessary to teach with a "stick".

from what i hear around the country there are two such positive coaching situations: klimova/ponomarenko and the coach who is training gregory/petukhov (not hess). this is not to assume all other russian coaches are "brutal" but i have heard only glowingly positive things about these two so far.

[Jack]

I've never seen a Russian coach training American skaters in a "brutal" fashion. It's more of a "you can't skate, but your parents are loaded so I'll teach you anyway" kind of philosohpy. Take the money and run.

[quark]

Originally posted by Jack
I've never seen a Russian coach training American skaters in a "brutal" fashion. It's more of a "you can't skate, but your parents are loaded so I'll teach you anyway" kind of philosohpy. Take the money and run. THAT'S CAPITALISM!

[Jim D]

This thread has strayed to far off topic. Stick a fork in it folks, it's done. ~~ Jim D