Mark Lund Discussion

[Isk8NYC]

These are posts discussing Mark Lund's comments on the Nancy Kerrigan special.

[momjudi]

I want to share with you a letter I got from Mark Lund. I wrote to him telling him (very politely) that I felt his comments about Johnny Weir's personal life had no bearing on whether or not he deserved to be national champion again this year. This is the reply I got back.

STATEMENT OF MARK LUND

REFLECTIONS OFF THE ICE - APPEARANCE



It has unfortunately become typical that journalists and members of the media who dare to comment about a celebrity or public figure that acts outrageously often come under attack. I see I am now one of those unfortunate targets. This is in reference to remarks I made during the television show Reflections on Ice regarding the reigning U.S. Men's Figure Skating Champion Johnny Weir.



My credentials in the sport and art of figure skating are well known, as is my orientation as an out gay man. I stand by my statement "overly out without being out" 100%. I say to Mr. Weir, "You enjoy being outspoken and a free spirit. You have said frequently that you have been brought up to speak your mind. However, you refuse to support the very community that paved the way for you." I say to all those that believe my comments about Mr. Weir were homophobic to take a step back and realize the beliefs you are actually expressing. Mr. Weir is an individual who enjoys all the rights of the gay community without coming out to support the gay community. Now who is the hypocrite here? Most certainly not me.



With Mr. Weir posing for photos wearing heels and elaborate makeup in the pages of BlackBook magazine, I say, "Please don't insult the grand drag queens of yesterday and today, unless you thank them for their tireless efforts of days past and present by acknowledging them publicly."



My comments regarding his costuming were nothing more than what you see in the newsmagazines and on TV when journalists critique celebrities on the red carpet. I have never liked his costumes and they have become more and more elaborate in recent seasons. They do not represent the sport of figure skating that I love. Why don't we take a look at the competitive costumes of skaters like Robin Cousins and John Curry. They understood classical elegance. Without a slight to great ballet dancers, my comment that Mr. Weir looks like a prima ballerina on the ice was meant to illustrate what I feel is his outrageous presentation of the sport and art of figure skating. I know I am not alone in my comments.



As a gay man who grew up in a small town in the 1970's, I was able to look up to those in the sport of figure skating—gay and straight—who earned my admiration through character, dedication and sportsmanship. I am glad to say some of them are great friends of mine today.



Mr. Weir is free to wear what he wants, but he should back it up with actions. No one denies his enormous talent, but my comments were meant to reflect my feeling that he prefers drawing attention for being outrageous to drawing attention for being a great figure skater. The subject of the show on which I made my comments was a preview of the U.S. Figure Skating Championships, which is a competitive sporting event.



To Mr. Weir, and his apparent legions of fans, to quote the old scoring system, there has been no 6.0 in your collective performances.

[Nicki]

Thanks for sharing your letter momjudi. I take offense with Mark Lund's statement that Johnny needs to be more supportive of the Gay community. Unless he is in Johhny's shoes, he really has no idea what Johnny's involvement with the Gay community is. It's great that Mark is comfortable being a gay man, and is involved with helping to shed a more positive light on homosexuals, but this doesn't mean that everyone else has to behave exactly as he does.

My opinion of this situation has not changed since reading Mark Lund's letter. I still believe that he was out of line to make such personal statements about Johnny, and they had nothing to do with the theme of the show, which was discussing which skaters have the best chance of medaling at this year's U.S. Nationals.

[Mel On Ice]

I agree with this statement:

"No one denies his enormous talent, but my comments were meant to reflect my feeling that he prefers drawing attention for being outrageous to drawing attention for being a great figure skater. The subject of the show on which I made my comments was a preview of the U.S. Figure Skating Championships, which is a competitive sporting event."

I disagree with him trying to force Johnny to out himself. That's something very personal that has to be done on John's own timeframe, if at all; essentially, his orientation is not my business unless he is willing to speak publicly, since I do not know John personally.

I would actually prefer some exhibitions of privacy from the skaters regarding their personal lives, there's way too many rumors out there about bed-hopping, skater-coach dailances and scandal. It detracts from the sport.

[WeirFan06]

I didn't see the show, nor do I remember who Mark Lund is offhand, but it sounds like his issue with Weir is far more personal than it is professional. It sounds like it really has nothing to do with skating talent or ability to win competitions. There are plenty of people in the skating world who are rumored to be gay but not officially out, and I don't recall that they were ever treated in this sort of manner. Brian Orser was outed against his will in 98 (or maybe earlier) after a legal issue surrounding a former boyfriend, and Brian Boitano (whatever we think, or choose to think is obvious) is gay only by rumor. Perhaps Mr. Lund would like to start a crusade against Brian Boitano. Somehow I think not.

Weir obviously rubs him the wrong way, as he tends to do sometimes, but shouldn't skating just be about skating? Weir makes excuses, wears funky costumes, and gets photographed in high heels... but he's a beautiful skater. For pure entertainment value and enjoyment of the sport, I would rather watch him than pretty much anybody else on the scene right now. Issues as personal as one's orientation have no place on national tv... that should be saved for the skating. :)

[Isk8NYC]

For the record, Mark Lund was formerly from International Figure Skating magazine. He was also the sardonic judge on the US version of "Skating with Celebrities."

The Johnny Weir diversion wasn't even a story, it was just a tangent they went off on while discussing their picks for the Nationals.
It was over quickly, so don't think they dwelled on Johnny's orientation. It was a silly tangent that added nothing to the program. Who was it who said that even bad PR is good PR?

The discussion on Scoring vs. Judging was interesting and pointed out that Ice Dancing has truly benefited from the new scoring system.

I did enjoy the overall program, although it could have used more solid information. I think there's hope for deeper reporting/discussion in the future.

[JFG]

For the record Mark Lund is in NO WAY ASSOCIATED WITH IFS MAGAZINE.

He was years ago, and left amongst various lawsuits and other problems that he incurred. Again, he is in no way associated with International Figure Skating magazine. He has since created a gay magazine that folded in approximately one year. Creepy guy.

[Isk8NYC]

I'll take your word for it, JFG. I've already deleted the recording, but I remember his introduction mentioned "International Figure Skating." It seemed awkward at the time, I guess they were carefully wording it to reference his past relationship.

My apologies.

Does IFS still send those nasty renewal notices waaaay in advance? I used to subscribe (when Lund was on staff) and I actually refused to renew because I didn't like the tone of the notices.

[Mel On Ice]

oh, don't get me going on an IFS rant...

I never, ever recieved promised skating calendars with renewal, was plastered with more renewals than magazines, and they had a no-forward rule for people who moved, so even though I paid for a full subscription, informed them of my move, I would still miss an issue.

The content was abysmal. The photo spreads were all high-fashion and had nothing to do with skating except that a figure skater happened to be photographed. News was old or irrelevant. And Mark appeared between the pages of his own magazine more than any other editor I have ever encountered. After they refused to send me the DOrothy Hamill mag I paid for but they didn't send me, I told them to cancel my subscription.

Haven't missed it.

[Lark]

Mr. Weir is an individual who enjoys all the rights of the gay community without coming out to support the gay community.....

With Mr. Weir posing for photos wearing heels and elaborate makeup.....

I have never liked his costumes and they have become more and more elaborate in recent seasons...

Uhm, WHAT RIGHTS do the gay community enjoy? Laws made against them on a weekly basis? Treated like diseased pariahs and pedophiles by a large section of the population? Especially the current government?

And why wait until now to pick on Johnny for not carrying a big old gay Pride flag in his luggage? Is Brian Boitano too big a public figure to attack? So you pick on an "up-and-comer"?

Brad Pitt recently posed for, what was it, Vanity Fair, wearing dresses? Uhm, go girl?

As for Johnny's costumes, how do they differ in the LEAST from some of the greatest male skaters the sport has ever seen: Yagudin and Plushenko? Joubert is looking awful "flashy" of late. Why not go after him?

I am not too sure who Mark Lund is, he obviously is not someone who made it big enough in I sport I love to rate a mental note. He sounds like a fat loser, and I wish I could type all of the cusswords I am feeling in my mind about such a bitter, angry man. He sounds quite homophobic for a gay man... :giveup:

[Lark]

I looked back through after my tangent, and so I know a bit about Mark Lund. Could care less about him though.

And it is nice to see that Weirfan06 and I see eye to eye. :P

[rickysk8]

saw this posted over on "stars on ice" and thought it was pretty funny....




He just needs to be removed from the sport....PERIOD!!!



http://www.365gay.com/health/fitness/sports/011207sports.htm

[sunjoy]

You can find a youTube of the segment, as well as more (as if it's needed :p) commentary at http://blogcritics.org/archives/2007/01/11/130124.php

I watched the segment twice and I feel even less charitable towards it the second time. At first I thought that Kerrigan was taken aback when Lund started-in on the "out without being out" comment, but now I'm not so sure.

Worse though, I'm starting to feel Lund's written response is disengenuous. He alludes to the "grand drag queens of old" in that response, seemingly trying to be open-minded about gender. But his remarks on the show are at odds with that -- prasing Evan's so-called masculinity, and saying we "don't need a prima-ballerina on the ice". Does he even know what a prima-ballerina is? That's a huge honor for a dancer (ok female, but it's not an insult).

This stuff is *soo* tired. It's an insult to gay, straight and genderqueer alike. What? Because I'm straight I'm not supposed to relate to Weir or move like him? Sorry, but I find his so-called "effeminate" movement to be empowering. In the written response, Lund is confusing gender identity and sexual orientation so badly that you have to wonder exactly what he knows about his "community". Cross-dressers? -- not always or even usually gay.

More on disengenuity: they seem to twist Dick Button's comments around as well. Button always likes to go off on the COP, and he may have been refering to that when he said that creative idividuals can find it hard to abide by the rulebook. However based on both his comments there about Johnny's talent, and the gushing praise he gave Johnny at Skate Idol, I hardly think he was trying to find a polite way to label Johnny a loose cannon, which is how the host spins it.

Later, Kerrigan nods when told that "the swan was a mistake". Hrm. Can she really believe that?

Did Johnny ever compare himself to Jesus? No. In fact he said he was trying some *more* masculine programs one of which is "loosely based" on Jesus.

And that is the sad irony of it all. In a season that Johnny's choreography, especially in King of Chess, uses decidedly masculine gestures, Lund decides to criticize how faggy (sarcasm intended) Johnny is.

Seriously, as a straight male, I'm wounded by Lund's attempt to queerify anything that is beautiful without conforming to stereotpical male strength and power. And I *do* mean wounded. Why should *only* gays be allowed the freedom to behave in and enjoy both butch and femme ways? Someone please pluck Lund & company out of the 1950s.

My only question is whether all that was the product of ignorance, misplaced anger, and perhaps substance abuse, or whether some focus group showed that pissing-off the core figure skating audience (who AFAICT seem to think that Johnny's sexuality should be kept private) might in fact boost ratings and draw-in more viewers by generating controversy. hmph.

[Nicki]

There is already a discussion of this in the General Skating Section. I haven't heard from anyone yet, who felt that Mark Lund was right in making those comments the way he did.

[rickysk8]

saw this posted in a few places.............interesting........was writen by someone named les........i checked out their accusations of mark lund and they are true......mark :twisted: lund just likes or enjoys bashing people.......


Mark Lund is nothing but an angry person who loves to get into controversy and cut down others. I saw him do it last year with "Skating with Celebrities". He was quoted on tabloid TV shows and in tabloid magazines talking trash about Lloyd Eisler and Kristy Swanson and their relationship, like he had anything to do with it??? I don't think so. He even went on "Good Day LA" with Jillian Barberi and discussed how FAT Kristy Swanson was and that Lloyd needed a fork lift to lift her up in the air. He is an angry individual and needs to be removed from the sport. He does not handle himself right at all. I worked on "Skating with Celebrities" as a PA (production assistant) and he was nothing but rude to the PA's all the time...like he was better than us, would talk about the celebs behind their backs. Then goes to "Star Magazine" or "enquirer" and says that Kristy Swanson was diffacult to work with. Absolutely NOT true. She was wonderful to work with and a very funny girl. She worked her but off on that show. I can not stand Mark Lund. I am glad to see carma getting him back!!! I am glad to see he is being called out on his crap talk!!!.
les

[rickysk8]

saw this posted in a few places.............interesting........was writen by someone named les........i checked out their accusations of mark lund and they are true......mark lund just likes or enjoys bashing people.......


Mark Lund is nothing but an angry person who loves to get into controversy and cut down others. I saw him do it last year with "Skating with Celebrities". He was quoted on tabloid TV shows and in tabloid magazines talking trash about Lloyd Eisler and Kristy Swanson and their relationship, like he had anything to do with it??? I don't think so. He even went on "Good Day LA" with Jillian Barberi and discussed how FAT Kristy Swanson was and that Lloyd needed a fork lift to lift her up in the air. He is an angry individual and needs to be removed from the sport. He does not handle himself right at all. I worked on "Skating with Celebrities" as a PA (production assistant) and he was nothing but rude to the PA's all the time...like he was better than us, would talk about the celebs behind their backs. Then goes to "Star Magazine" or "enquirer" and says that Kristy Swanson was diffacult to work with. Absolutely NOT true. She was wonderful to work with and a very funny girl. She worked her but off on that show. I can not stand Mark Lund. I am glad to see carma getting him back!!! I am glad to see he is being called out on his crap talk!!!.
les

[Lark]

Yes, please check the Nancy Kerrigan Countdown Thread. It is rocking!

I have e-mailed Mark Lund already. I kept it short and sweet, and nice. Just told him I thought he was way off base.

[rickysk8]

what an idiot.....mark lund has got the biggest mouth and is so stupid. mean person.

[Mskimberlyclark]

Mark Lund brilliantly articulated why Johnny Weir won't come out of the closet, there is such hatred of gays, especially effeminate men, that he could only hurt his chances of winning by coming out. Did Mark Lund come out while he was still skating competitively? Ice Skating is an art and Mr. Weir should be allowed to express himself however he sees fit, that's how geniuses are born. Don't try to hold him down to your level Mr. Lund, and by the way, I don't know whose community you represent but it's not mind. Kerrigan is twice as butch as he pal Lund, maybe she should give Weir lessons. I wonder if she would hire a feminine man for her show?

[flippet]

I didn't see the show, nor do I remember who Mark Lund is offhand, but it sounds like his issue with Weir is far more personal than it is professional.

You know, I think I agree with you. I didn't see the original tiff, just heard about it, but this letter is interesting.

I wonder if Lund made a pass at Johnny or something, and was rebuffed.


Whatever--I laugh at this:
Mr. Weir is free to wear what he wants, but he should back it up with actions. No one denies his enormous talent, but my comments were meant to reflect my feeling that he prefers drawing attention for being outrageous to drawing attention for being a great figure skater.I think that Johnny *does* back it up with actions...most of the time. Is he a drama queen? Most definitely. But he's also an excellent skater. So what if he 'prefers' the attention for being outrageous? If he were a crap skater, it would be ridiculous. But he's not, so....let him get attention for whatever floats his boat.

[Mskimberlyclark]

In response to board moderator Isk8NYC who seems to think this was just a little tangent and not an important part of the show I would ask any inquiring minds to check it out on www.youtube.com. Type Mark Lund in search and you can see the whole thing. I'm baffled why Isk8NYC doesn't see that these were extremely significant and telling comments. Yes, Isk8NYC, it is a big deal, and Kerrigan is just as guilty as Lund for not disagreeing. She said Weir was not the kind of artist American wants to see. Note to Nancy re: Art - you don't know it until you see it. If all artists stopped expressing themselves and went towards second-guessing what American's want to see then American Art would look a lot like Fox TV. Hmm, wasn't that Lund's employer? (Sorry Peg Bundy, you were America's first MILF and I love some Fox shows, just being #####y because I'm gay gay gay and more gay!::bow:

[Isk8NYC]

On the contrary; I thought the Mark Lund Board discussion was significant enough to merit its own thread, separate from the original show thread.

I think Mr. Lund's remarks were not planned and Kerrigan simply didn't know what to say. (Watch the YouTube segment again and you can see the panic in her eyes.) I take it, MKC, you only saw the clip, not the whole show? You didn't miss anything, but it would give you a different perspective. In watching it again, I wonder if those comments had been discussed between them before filming, and she was more shocked that he would actually say it on camera?

While the actual show was about two hours long, including many commercials, Lund's diatribe was at most 8 minutes. It was obviously ad-libbed, which is why I (personally) felt the discussion was a diversion from the show's script. The amount of time spent on Boards discussing the controversy is significantly longer than the actual segment! LOL

The rest of show WAS NOT spent gay-bashing, it was a disjointed, choppy mishmosh of hearsay leading up to the Nationals.
In fact, it was only the Men's predictions that went off on a tangent; the other three disciplines were discussed badly, but without any offensive comments.

[Careygram]

Did Mark Lund ever skate? Competitively at that? What did he acheive competitively? Nothing....oh, I see. He should get out of the public eye and go back to hanging out with Lois Elfman. They deserve each other. He has an overinflated ego compared to his accomplishments and why they keep putting him out there for all the world to see is beyond me. I just ignore him at this point or better yet, laugh at him. The less we discuss, the sooner (hopefully) he'll go away....:frus:

[doubletoe]

Hmm. . . Just sounds like sour grapes to me! He wants Johnny to be "out" and yet he goes on to imply that he would not be proud to have Johnny representing the gay community. I guess you just can't win with someone who only wants you to lose!

Besides, why the heck should Johnny become a registered member of the "gay community" and why should he say anything about his sexual preferences to the world? What business is his sex life of ours and what does it have to do with skating? Johnny is not a poster child for the gay community or any other group. He is an individual and an artist and represents nobody but his very unique self. So if you love him you love him, and if you hate him you hate him. As it should be.

[jazzpants]

Ummm... who's Mark Lund anyway? The only time I remember hearing his name is on "Skating w/Celebrities." 8O :lol: :P :twisted:

Okay, so I finally watch that video with Nancy Kerrigan and all I keep thinking is "what did Johnny ever done to YOU??? Sheesh!!!" 8O :roll:

MsKimberlyClark: Do I know you??? (I see you're in San Francisco.)

[Lark]

Has anyone who wrote Lund get a response? I never did.

[DreamSkates]

Johnny Weir does not owe any community anything. He has worked hard for what he has earned as a figure skater. Period. If he chooses to support one group of people, or a cause, or whatever, that's all it is - his choice.
I really get bugged when people start mixing causes with figure skating. I don't know about anyone else, but I like to watch and follow skating and skaters for the joy, beauty, strength and excitement of figure skating competitions. That's all.
If skaters support causes outside of the rink, great. Again, that's their choice.