Why do we get so stressed about the sport/art form issue in relation to skating?

[TashaKat]

Having read the thread regarding the debate about 'is figure skating a sport' I came to wonder why we get so stressed about it!

Let me say here that I firmly believe that figue skating (all aspects) is a unique combination of a sport and an art form. I can quite see why people get upset about it not being recognised as a sport but I, personally, would be more upset if it were not considered an art! The very things that I love about it are the things that make up the artistry, the things that aren't 'required' for the sports element - the grace, the flow, the interpretation. Don't get me wrong, I love to see great jumps, great lifts etc but wouldn't be as addicted if it didn't have the other elements. Some skaters are great jumpers but bore me rigid, I once saw a programme by Dorothy Hamill which didn't have a single jump in it and it was, to me, pure magic.

People compare ballet to skating, whilst I feel that there are lots of similarities I DON'T believe that they can be categorised together as ballet tends more to performances ('exhibitions') whereas skating is based around the competitive element. Of course there are dance competitions and there are skating performances but IMHO the emphasis for the two disciplines is totally different.

I look forward to hearing your views :D

L x

[anital]

I voted that all aspects are sports. I think it bothers me that some people think that skating isn't a sport because I know, as a skater, how hard it is, how much energy it consumes....and also because I have yet to hear an arguement that I can't counter-argue. I think that (for some reason) I feel like it being put down if it's said to not be a sport. And how dare anyone put down skating to me!!

[loveskating]

IMHO skating is a sport because it has been socially defined as such, i.e., there are competitions with pre-defined rules that all the skaters are (or should be) subject to and on a national and international basis, and the rules flow from standards created by the skaters themselves in accomplishment.

If those were taken away, then skating would be merely an art form, and the shows we now see would be the norm...then it could not be called a sport.

In opera, and opera singing is a very, very athletic art, there are "competitions" but these are basically to get the attention of agents, to get a slot, a job in a real opera, to be considered for a job with an opera company, for the agents and opera companies to discover new talent, etc. -- and there are no national, much less international rules, or if there are by some kind of rare consensus, they certainly are not written down.

I see figure skating as "the artist of all sports" and that artistry is just a function of skaters who, having mastered the technical aspects, wanted to do more, wanted to add another layer -- this has simply evolved...and I am very, very grateful for it, because I so love to see great skating.

[AxelAnnie22]

SPORT as defined by Merriam Webster.

a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c
(1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a
particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in
2 a : PLEASANTRY, JEST b : often mean-spirited jesting :

So, technically, figure skating is sport

However, in the common venacular, SKATING IS NOT SPORT - it is a particular subset of sport: JUDGED SPORT.

I think where it gets confused is that people think that because it is athletic and demanding, it is a sport. Not so. It is athletic and demanding, requires enormous skill, but it is not a regular sport, like all the other things we consider sport: Football, baseball, speed skating, etc., because its competitors do not compete solely in the objective world, but in the subjective world of presentation, artistry, etc. Thus, skating moves from the SPORT category into a different place. Doesn't mean it is less than, or better than, it simply means it is different than. Trying to argue it is a Sport just like all other sports, is just silly, because it isn't. Try telling one of those big basketball players that not only do they have to run all over the court, holding their arms in beautiful positions, jump up, slam the ball in the basket, but rotate twice in the air, land on one foot, and then smile for the camera!! Those guys play sport. We Skate!!

BTW - have you noticed that sports that are judged are never played?

[loveskating]

But basketball is partially "judged"...the referee is there to judge whether or not you:

1. While dribbling (bouncing the ball with ONE hand) you cannot scoop it and carry it; you cannot even accidentally pull the ball over with your hand;
2. You cannot bounce the ball with TWO hands, ONLY one;
3. Traveling, you cannot even slightly run carrying the ball, you have to dribble it at all times.
4. In a free throw, if you step over the free throw line, your shot is invalidated.
5. If you step over the court boundary lines, you are out of bounds and you have to forfeit possession of the ball to the other side.
6. If the ball is loose, and a player from one side grabs it at the same time you do, there is a "tie" and the ball has to be tossed; if you step over the line during a toss, the ref can give the ball to the other side; if both players kind of jump up and hold the ball for too long, the ref can re-toss (after YOUR teammate got the frigging toss);
7. You cannot stop dribbling and then start up again, once you stop, you have to pass off.
8. When going for a loose ball, if your feet are inside the court boundary lines, and yet the ball is beyond the line, if you save it that way, pull it out in the direction of a teammate, that's ok...and VERY hard to call for a ref...they will usually call you out of bounds unless they happened to be standing directly parallel to you. This was my specialty, a big crowd pleaser, and I got called out of bounds plenty of times when I wasn't, I was in the air.
9. Fouls are very, very tricky to call...if you are both moving, a slap on the wrist can be a foul; going up into the air for a loose ball can disguise a body hit; and much more

All these things are "judged" by the referees all the time, throughout the game, and can be decisive, especially in a closely fought game.

Is basketball therefore "partially judged" while skating is "entirely judged"? I don't see the real qualitative difference myself!

Did she two foot the lutz or not? Judgment call.

[AxelAnnie22]

Loveskating,

Basketball is not judged, it is referred. There is a difference. You make my point with your examples.

2. You cannot bounce the ball with TWO hands, ONLY one;

The referee decides if the rules are being followed. Thus, the decision is: Did the player use one hand or two hands? The referee does not decide who bounced the ball with the best style, the most rhythm, or using the best position. The referee simply decides if the bounce is legal or not.

The figure skating judge not only decides if the rule, regarding the execution of a triple lutz, for example, is being followed, but also decides how he liked it. The judge decides if, for example, the jump take off is from the correct edge, making it "legal". But then judges also decides how that skater's jump ranks in and amongst the other jumps. Was it as high, as beautiful, as meaningful with regards to where it was placed in the music, etc.

The basketball referee does NOT decide which team wins. He simply evaluates (within the best of his human ability) how the players follow the rules, one play at a time, and calls them legal or illegal. They are either in, or out. It was either two hands or one. The ball went through the hoop, or it didn't.

The figure skating referee oversees the judges. The judges evaluate the legality of the move - i.e. was the correct take off edge used? However, the figure skating judge can then apply a range of "credit" for a move. It is not simply legal or not legal. Even an incomplete move can get partial credit. And then, the judge also adds his/her opinion of the performance of the moves.
Sure, there are guidelines, but guidelines (when it comes to presentation)are very different than rules.

Now, back to the original question. I don't know why people defend, so strongly that Figure Skating is a sport. I don't understand what difference it makes.

[RobinA]

Good question. I have no idea why people get so stressed about whether figure skating is art or a sport. Personally, I don't care if it's labeled a laundry detergent, it is what it is no matter what you call it, and I love it, always have and always will.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by RobinA
Good question. I have no idea why people get so stressed about whether figure skating is art or a sport. Personally, I don't care if it's labeled a laundry detergent, it is what it is no matter what you call it, and I love it, always have and always will. Thanks for the belly laugh! Perhaps if it were a laundry detergent, the judging would be "cleaner"! :lol:

[pilgrimsoul]

Figure skating is both art and a sport. I don't understand why some think of art and sport as mutually exclusive when it comes to skating. Art is the creation and/or performance of something original which elevates the soul. Sport is a competitive activity measured by physical strength and/or prowess. Figure skating fans get the best of both worlds!

[loveskating]

Hello AxelAnnie:

Respectfully, and because this is interesting (and of interest) I'd say that because the quantity of human judgment by the referees is less than in figure skating does not change the qualitative fact that the game of basketball involves the judgment of OTHERS besides the players.

Think of it this way: there is absolutely no chance that any game of basketball could be played WITHOUT referees and be considered valid as to its outcome. That goes to an issue of quality, not quantity, in the sense that the very nature of the game requires the judgment of others besides the players themselves.

Now take long jumps in track and field...there you have the jump, the footprints are in the sand, and the length is measured...so the judgment of others is absolutely not involved in any sort of qualitative manner...likewise as to throwing a discus or javelin, or hitting the target with a bow and arrow.

I could put it this way as well: If human judgment is necessarily subjective -- which is, afterall, the underlying claim made by those who contend that figure skating is not a sport -- then the involvement of these human referees, umpires etc. in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, etc. is certainly equally a matter of human judgment -- and the only difference is that the quantity of the human judgment is less.

[AxelAnnie22]

Hi Loveskating

Because we know we adore each other, and value what the other has to say, we can continue to explore this conversation, and remain, tho' alas on opposite ends of the country, close "posting friends". !

I would not agree with your distinction of qualitative and quantitative. Basketball is played all the time without referees, on courts and backyard lots. My son - an attorney, and quite competitive and argumentative, plays every Saturday Morning. They track the winnings and loosings, and have no referee, and still consider their outcomes valid - as applied to the context within which they are playing.

As to the long jump. There is, I am sure, a qualitative element. Someone is watching the toes of the jumper to see from whence he leaves the ground. There are probably other elements taken into consideration also.

In a sport, the referee decides (and yes, he uses his judgement) if a rule has been broken. In figure skating, the judge decides not only whether the rules have been complied with, but to what degree they have been followed, (Back to the lutz edge.) The referee decides if the ball was bounced with two hands. He doesn't judge how close the second hand was to the ball. If all fingers were on it. Was the palm touching, were the two hands equi distance. The judge simply says the second hand was on or off. Now, the referee can be wrong, it can decide a championship, but that is a different conversation.

The figure skating judge is judging nuance, not just absolute. He/She is taking both the quantitative (how many revolutions) into consideration, as well as the qualitative into consideration (entrance, exit speed, edge control, placement of hands, balance, take off edge) and then decides how much credit to give (or how much of a deduction). This aspect moves firure skating from the "sport" category, and into a different groove IMO. It is what causes people to say it is not a sport. It really isn't a sport. It is so much more than just sport, because it has the whole other side to it. It is more difficult both to execute and to understand.

I am more familiar with football and the penalties. But can you imagine there being a 5-15 yard penality for being off sides. Can you imagine one ref giving a 5yd penality, another a 10 yd, a third a 7 yd., and so on. It would be a joke! Once the call is made - wammo! the penalty is given. They can debate the call, review the play, but they don't decide the degree to which the penalty should be applied. 5 Yards. End of discussion. It isn't a close offsides, a wobbly offsides, a "hand-down" offsides or a partial credit offsides. It is just offsides.

I think the reason people get so upset about the "label" (I can't ever spell that darned word!) is that when people say it is not sport, they are dismissing figure skating as a silly game. I think it is not sport because it is so much more.

I love the nuances of figure skating. But then I am a little twisted. I also count the ballerina's revolutions in her fueute turns before I applaud them!
:lol:

NOTE: I love these kinds of discussions. Please don't anybody think that either loveskating or I am "het up" about this at all.

PS I spent last week with the grandchildren. We watched a lot of figure skating. We watched the Mens SP at the OLYS. Anna (age 5) really liked the men. She thought they were exciting to watch because they go so fast and jump so high. Also, she says, boys are much better at yo-yo's! Cracked me up. So all you boys out there, brush up!

[loveskating]

Hi AxelAnnie:

I love discussions which explore tough issues in a respectful way too...I learn so much...and I totaly respect you!

I think you make a mistake when you mix up the issue of incompetent and/or "corrupt" judging in skating with the qualitative issue of the judgment of others besides the skaters playing a big role in the sport.

And while I do grant you that judges play a larger role in figure skating than they do in basketball or football, etc....in boxing (historically, a notoriously corrupt sport) judges play a huge role also unless there is a knockout. No one would claim that boxing is not a sport.

There should be little or no difference between the judges as to correct takeoff, height, air position, distance covered, landing on the correct edge and clean runout (or not) (despite Kristi's advice in her book about how to hide a flutz from the judges). I could be wrong, but its my perception that the judges are closer on the technical marks than they are on the presentation marks). IF there are, then the sport is corrupt, or its judges are incompetent...but that does not mean that figure skating is not a sport.

The presentation mark is FAR less subjective than you indicate, IMHO, but there is an element of subjectivity...I mean, if someone can love a hyped tenor who cannot sing a B, when the opera composers wrote so many Bs, I'm certain that subjectivity can play a role, LOL!

In short, figure skating is IMHO a sport...its officials may be corrupt and/or incompetent, but its a sport nonetheless.

P.S. I agree that on the sandlots folks play basketball and respect the outcomes, but that would never do in any offical competition of the NBA or the college leagues. It didn't even do in our little Class "B" level of competition in Texas when I was a kid playing front guard in the days when the court was divided for women.