Michelle *IS* a goddess!

[Lark]

After seeing the way Michelle handled herself in Turin, with all of her problems, I have to say that my respect for her has grown enormously.

She has shown kindness, maturity and compassion, depite all of her physical, and emotional, pain.

You rock, Michelle!!! :bow:

[dbny]

After seeing the way Michelle handled herself in Turin, with all of her problems, I have to say that my respect for her has grown enormously.

She has shown kindness, maturity and compassion, depite all of her physical, and emotional, pain.

You rock, Michelle!!! :bow:

I would most certainly not go that far. She simply did the right thing. I don't think that takes any more kindness, maturity, or compassion than would be expected of any ordinary decent person. That said, I do feel for her.

[duckies77]

Michelle!----Tenacious, with a capital T!

[phoenix]

Actually I think she showed tremendous class because she could very well have waited until the day of, hoping to be feeling better, & then pull out at the last moment. Instead, she pulled out a week beforehand, which will give Emily a chance to get acclimated to the ice / arena / atmosphere before competing. Major class, all the way.

[flippet]

Major class, all the way.


Ennh...minor class, imo. Major class would have been realizing before flying to Italy that is just wasn't going to work, and letting Emily have the entire Olympic experience. Because a groin injury doesn't heal like magic--and if it's bad enough now to pull out, you can bet it was bad enough 3, 4, 5 days ago. Walking into a stadium and standing in the cold does not make the injury worse. (It won't make it better, sure, but it doesn't make it worse.) She knew. She just hoped she was wrong, and was betting on the outside chance.

Don't get me wrong, I like Michelle. But it's not like she couldn't see this coming, if she'd had her eyes open.

[EastonSkater]

[Moeller said Sunday he does not believe the current injury is related to the groin problem Kwan had during the national championships. - yahoo news - link By NANCY ARMOUR, AP National Writer]

Stop jumping to conclusions for those that are jumping to conclusions.

[flippet]

TURIN, Italy Feb 12, 2006 (AP)— Michelle Kwan dropped out of the Olympics on Sunday morning, one day after she cut short a practice because of a recurring groin injury.

From the ABC News site.

What part of 'recurring' tells you it is unrelated??

:roll:

[Kevin Callahan]

Even so, perhaps this comes as a surprise to you, Easton. It comes as no suprise to me. I was expecting worse. I was expecting a injury on the ice during the events for Kwan, which would have prevented Emily from performing at all. Although I wish injury on no one, I am glad in a way that Kwan was injured this early, so that Emily does indeed have a chance at olympic glory.

[EastonSkater]

Kevin... not sure. I didn't show any signs of being surprised about anything. I only mentioned what the doc said. Perhaps you were thinking of a post from a different online member?

[EastonSkater]

From the ABC News site.
What part of 'recurring' tells you it is unrelated??
:roll:

ABC news said this....
[After examining her, Moeller said Sunday he does not believe the current injury is related to the groin problem Kwan had during the national championships.]

The doc...Jim Moeller said he doesn't believe the current injury is related. So have a good think about that too.

[Kevin Callahan]

Kevin... not sure. I didn't show any signs of being surprised about anything. I only mentioned what the doc said. Perhaps you were thinking of a post from a different online member?

I said perhaps, I wasn't claiming you were or were not, merely that perhaps you were.

You did say to stop jumping conclusions. I am merely saying the conclusion that she was bound to injure herself was a reasonable inductive conclusion, and that any "jump" was really more like a logical step.

[flippet]

You did say to stop jumping conclusions. I am merely saying the conclusion that she was bound to injure herself was a reasonable inductive conclusion, and that any "jump" was really more like a logical step.

Yep. And I'd add that when one requests a bye due to a groin injury, and then withdraws due to --wait for it-- a groin injury, it's not unreasonable to believe that they're related, no matter what a doctor says. It's not like she withdrew due to a stress fracture.

[EastonSkater]

But on the other hand, it is not unreasonable to take into account of what the doc says. So that's why it's better to not jump to conclusions.....for those that reckon that MK should have pulled out before, and stuff like that. Because those that are doing it are on the speculation bandwagon.....putting things in her mouth.

[Kevin Callahan]

Perhaps.

But this is definitely an example of "I told you so!" I predicted that Kwan would hurt herself, some way some how, related or not to the injury that kep her out of Nats. If you don't come into the Olympics 100%, as we've seen time and tme again, then the chances of you getting further hurt are high. And this is exactly what has happened.

Now, I will admit bias. I was angry with Kwan for taking the spot from Emily Hughes. If you can't make it to Nats, you can't make it past Nats. Now, I realize this is not the way the committee works, and I'm talking about my own sense of sportswomanship. In my opinion, Kwan had a obligation to back out before Torino, and I am not alone in this opinion.

[EastonSkater]

If you can't make it to Nats, you can't make it past Nats.

I've never heard of that one before. Who made that principle?

[Kevin Callahan]

I've never heard of that one before. Who made that principle?

You took me out of context. Recall I said:

Now, I realize this is not the way the committee works, and I'm talking about my own sense of sportswomanship.

[EastonSkater]

You took me out of context. Recall I said:

Oh I see. So it was your own principle.

[EastonSkater]

But it doesn't necessarily mean that is related.

[Kevin Callahan]

Oh I see. So it was your own principle.

I believe I made that abundantly clear, yes, and also made clear I was not saying otherwise.

As far as I am concerned, Kwan's private demonstration was not the same as US Nats. It was unfair to subject the others to a the atmopshere of US Nats and yet allow Kwan to avoid it. The pressure of public competition, with the audience, and the viewers, and the goal adds a different dynamic than a private demonstration.

While this is indeed my own principle, I do not feel it to be an unreasoned one.

[EastonSkater]

ahh..yes, well....I don't think MK needs any lessons or anything about differences between a demonstration and a real competition, right? Especially since she's been like a world champion a heap of times, and US nat champion a heap of times. Being a world champion many times counts for at least something....right?

[Kevin Callahan]

ahh..yes, well....I don't think MK needs any lessons or anything about differences between a demonstration and a real competition, right? Especially since she's been like a world champion a heap of times, and US nat champion a heap of times. Being a world champion many times counts for at least something....right?

I don't know what Kwan knows. I'm just giving my opinion on what I consider fair. As for the world champion comment, are you telling me or asking me? If the latter, I can guarantee you will not like my answer.

[flippet]

But it doesn't necessarily mean that is related.

I don't know what your definition of 'related' is (obviously not what's in the dictionary :roll: ), but you go ahead and believe that. Those of us who know skating and skating injuries (and, y'know, have common sense) understand that groin injuries are nagging and lingering--just ask Elvis. A second 'groin injury' this close to the first is certain to be an aggravation of the original injury--as many news outlets have pointed out.

Just goes to show how blind to reason some fans can be. :frus:

[Kevin Callahan]

I want to be clear: I have nothing against Michelle Kwan personally. How could I? I don't know her personally. Furthermore, I have a great deal of respect for her. Much of the hype is correct: she's been a fixture of 12 years, and most of it was her own doing. We can debate how much influence her being KWAN has helped her out, but I won't denigrate her massive contributions to the sport.

All I am saying is that when you have an injury so serious that it knocks you out of competition before an Olympic qualifying event like Nationals, which she has taken NINE TIMES, and that event really is not that far from the Olympics, precedent has shown that there is a good chance you will be injured either in practice, or worse yet, at one of the events you are competing in.

I believe, and I believe flippet believes, that Michelle should have predicted what us mere figure skating mortals have: that she would injure herself. And furthermore, that it was her moral obligation to give the chance to Emily. Right now, Michelle breaks even with me as far as "doing the right thing." If she had injured herself at competition so that Emily couldn't compete, I would have been... annoyed.

[EastonSkater]

The fact is.... MK believed that she would have been fine for the olympics, and so did a lot of other people. So what was good enough for her to believe, was good enough for other people to believe as well. She passed the testing. She had no moral obligation to give her spot away. Lots of sports people get injured and are back competing again after a few weeks or so of physiotherapy. It's their nature.....it's their competitiveness.

MK is probably smarter and more intelligent than both of you put together. So it's kind of funny how people speak about her as if she's some child that doesn't know how to think etc.

[Kevin Callahan]

The fact is.... MK believed that she would have been fine for the olympics, and so did a lot of other people. So what was good enough for her to believe, was good enough for other people to believe as well. She passed the testing. She had no moral obligation to give her spot away. Lots of sports people get injured and are back competing again after a few weeks or so of physiotherapy. It's their nature.....it's their competitiveness.

I question the fairness of that testing. That's my whole point. Of course you will disagree with my conclusion if you disagree with my premises, but I think your viewpoint was already quite clear. I was simply trying to make sure mine was as clear, not attempting to persuade you of its validity.

MK is probably smarter and more intelligent than both of you put together. So it's kind of funny how people speak about her as if she's some child that doesn't know how to think etc.

Surely you know by now that avoiding personally attacking your opponent is a mainstay of civil debate. I was very clear to make sure it was known I was not personally attacking Michelle Kwan. Furthermore, I certainly didn't attack you personally. Neither did flippet, as far as I am aware.

And neither of spoke of Kwan as if she was a child. She's older than I am by a few years. That's why I'm so surprised she did not come to the same conclusion we did. And I'm sure Kwan is very intelligent, yet I think you would find it hard to back up your claim she is smarter than both flippet and me combined. I don't know flippet's IQ, but I know mine, and knowing flippet's level of rhetoric, I doubt it's low. Kwan is certainly smart, but not that smart.

[flippet]

Kevin, you're funny. :D

The fact is.... MK believed that she would have been fine for the olympics, and so did a lot of other people.

Belief and hope are different. Michelle hoped she would be fine--and so did a lot of other people. The 'what-ifs' were so great...what if she could heal in time? What if she could turn in a good performance, even injured? But it wasn't well-grounded in reality. Like Scotty said this morning, he asked her if she was sure she couldn't give it a few more days--and now that she's thinking realistically, she told him that she couldn't. She wanted this SO badly, and I understand that, but sometimes wanting something as badly as that can make you overlook or 'wish away' things that you really, really need to take into account.

[crayonskater]

So the team doctor says it is unrelated...is anyone else cynical?

You see, if her groin injury was the reason for pulling out, the IOC would have less reason for allowing the substitute to fill in because the USOC knew about Michelle's groin injury. Medically speaking, injuries of this sort are rarely unrelated. One injury causes physical adjustments which can cause other injuries of disparate body parts.

ITA. I will believe they were two separate injuries, in that Michelle wasn't in that much pain in practice and probably was feeling reasonably well. She did land a triple loop before crashing on that flip.

But of course they're related. Injuries have a way of stacking up, and it strains credulity to believe that they're just three separate accidents. Especially with the short timetable. As a former competitive athlete, this sort of thing happens all the time. Someone strains an ankle, forces it back to practice as soon as its nominally healed, and winds up with a knee injury because it's changed her stride or stance. This is pretty much biomechanics, and this is why we invented physical therapy.

That said, if she wasn't injured before she stepped on the ice in Torino, and was afterwards, that's all the committee needs. Most athletes are dealing with recovered and recurring injuries, so if the standard was 'never injured ever', it would be a really bad standard. The doc sounds like he was engaging in a bit of hyperbole so it would be clear that she wasn't injured ahead of time.

I don't know whether the USFSA cleared her even though she was injured. I kind of doubt it, as its starting to strain believability to think all of this was planned.

[nbct]

It's so refreshig to see voices of reason. Thank you, Kevin and flippet.

Look, when Uberroth said something to the effect that Kwan was the most important athlete to the USOC (meaning of all time), the stench of politics found its way all the way to the US. With that being the head of the USOC's opinion (note the word opinion and not FACT), is it any wonder that, that sham of a skating session at her rink in Cally granted her the magic ticket??? And any wonder that in-the-pocket docs are willing to parse words when discussing injuries.

My take is that Kwan knew she wasn't ready for Nats. "Asked" for the bye--a foregone conclusion with Petey in her pocket--and used the high-jacked time to try to land a few jumps. If she is this "goddess" and this incredible good will ambassador, she would have known it was time to hang up the blades and accept that a gold medal at the Big O simply wasn't part of her destiny. She didn't do that. She tried to bask in old glory for a few more moments, and in the process nearly cost a young skater a chance at an Olypmpic berth. So, she finally gave in after she was recorded mopping the ice with her rear. Some hero.

I'll take the young Chinese pair as heroes. Kwan suffers from belief in her own press and the old athlete syndrome...not knowing when to call it a day.

I hope she has a wonderful post-Olympic life.

[EastonSkater]

nbct ... you should submit that to a fictional creative writing competition. Amazing how wild the imagination can go when somebody hates somebody or is so incredibly jealous of somebody.

[Bothcoasts]

...and I'm talking about my own sense of sportswomanship. In my opinion, Kwan had a obligation to back out before Torino, and I am not alone in this opinion.

On a completely unrelated and hopefully much lighter note, Kevin, I read your above sentences way too quickly. For a minute there, I was confused as to why your screenname is "Kevin!" :P

[Careygram]

Two things--

Michelle herself was bumped from an olympic games so i guess she'd know how it feels. And she left time for Emily to get there.

Hongbo Zhao--how glad is he that he didn't read this thread before he competed? Good god, he might have gotten another "related" injury.

We don't know anything. All I know is that I've met Michelle and had a lunch with her sister and her sisters husband and they are nothing but polite and gracious. So what if she stuck around? She was hopeful. I'm sure it's something that goes around.

That said, she will be sorely missed.

[Kevin Callahan]

On a completely unrelated and hopefully much lighter note, Kevin, I read your above sentences way too quickly. For a minute there, I was confused as to why your screenname is "Kevin!" :P

Heh. Well, I'm egaltarian and a feminist. So, in this case, since the issue is between two female skaters, I felt sportwomanship was a better word choice. Inclusive language for the win.

Amazing how wild the imagination can go when somebody hates somebody or is so incredibly jealous of somebody.

While nbct's words are harsher than mine, and I'm not sure I disagree, but harsh or not, your words are even less relevant. I don't think that anyone has claimed they hate Michelle Kwan or are spitefully jealous of her.

Now I don't claim to know who had who in who's pockets. I'm not going to claim that Kwan bribed anyone, or that she controlled the politics of the USOC or the IOC. In fact, I want to believe that isn't the case at all. What I do want to believe, and what I think happened, is rather that Kwan's KWANNESS overshadowed reasonable doubts that should have entered her mind and the minds of the coaches, doctors, and committeepeople in question. Where there were warning signs we could see, they missed, because wouldn't it be wonderful if Kwan took the gold? Classic case of getting carried away under pressure. Kwan and her compatriots are human. They make mistakes. This is why I assure you I am leveling no attacks against Kwan. I've made plenty of mistakes in my life, so this is not a "he who is without sin" situation. I do not hate Michelle Kwan. Once again, I ask, how could I? I don't know her.

As for jealousy, certainly. She is a great figure skater with a history to be proud of. What figure skater ouldn't be jealous of that? But that is different from the spiteful jealousy you seem to suggest that all her critics must for some reason be exhibiting whenever they critique her actions and decisions. I certainly do not warrant such a claim. I don't believe flippit does either. I don't know nbct, but I'd hazard to guess that no such claim is warranted there either. When you make a mistake, people call you on it. This is not hatred or spiteful jealousy or even meanspirted. Sure, you can make it that way, and I'm sure many people already are, but none of them have yet shown themselves on this board, and if they did, they would find themselves rebuffed for their inappropriate behavior.

Criticism is not inherently mean. It is there to grow you, push you, make you better. In case you require refreshing on this concept, I know a very stoic Russian Coach that exemplifies this quality.

[phoenix]

My very stoic Russian coach manages to criticize me without being cruel.

No one here really knows all the details, so all this is speculation, water under the bridge, blah blah blah. No one knows how Michelle felt. She was obviously healthy enough to skate a back to back short & long program for the committee a couple weeks ago. Everyone probably knew it was tenuous, but had it held up, she would have been fine.

There were questions about Hongbo Zhao's ability to make it through his competition, but I don't see anyone shouting about how he should have known better & stayed home & given someone else the spot on the team.

And didn't Peter O. recuse himself from the vote?

[nbct]

Unfortunately, the only retort some of the rabbid Kwan fans have is to call people trolls, hateful, or jealous. Jealously is a wasted emotion. If someone has something I admire, I make it a point to learn from them. Why waste time being jelaous when I can cultivate a talent or learn a new skill. And I've found that anyone with something worth admiring is more than happy to share their talents or gifts with you.

Hateful...if expressing my opinion when it differs from another is hateful, so be it. I call it truthful. I don't even know the girl to hate her.

Troll...aren't they from fairy tales? :lol:

But, Easonskater, the one thing I will do is consider submitting some of my writing for publication. I will take your suggestion as a compliment and not as a sign of sarcastic jealousy. 8-)