What do you consider "bad behavior" by a skater?

[manleywoman]

I thought of this when reading another thread:

I DON"T think it's bad behavior to cry because you didn't skate well or place well (not a temper tantrum screaming fit, just tears). Even if you have a bad practice day, and are frustrated because you're trying really hard and just aren't getting something, I think it's okay to feel your feelings. We all have bad days, or are affected by personal events off the ice, and need to let it out the disappointment. And again, I stress that I mean crying without the fits and screaming. People can cry in a dignified manner!

(Of course, if a student cries every day in practice, I can see how a coach would get extremely irritated)

I DO think it's bad behavior to:

1) have a tantrum
2) kick the ice
3) curse
4) project any unsportsman-like behavior towards other competitors, both in practice and competition (skating too close on purpose, bumping music in line, etc)
5) show disrespect to a coach or partner

I'm sure there are others I could list, but can't think of right now.

What do you all think? Do you think that crying is totally unacceptable in all forms? It's hard to tell a kid to hold back their tears, and there aren't many private places during a competition to go cry on someone's shoulder. So I think tears without the other outbursts are fine. JMHO

[Trillian]

I don't see why crying should be considered unacceptable, but I'm sure there are people who view it that way. Some people just react that way in a high pressure situation, whether they skated well or not; it's a way of relieving tension. There's nothing unsportsmanlike about it. I saw one young lady at several events last year who could invariably be spotted crying and looking very upset after every performance; I always felt sorry for her. (Especially since I frankly thought her coach's reaction to her less-than-stellar performances was at least partially causing it--I'd probably crumble under that glare myself.) It's a natural reaction, not something that people usually do intentionally.

Tantrums of various kinds, poor behavior in general (rudeness, foul language, etc.), and that sort of thing are more obviously unacceptable, although the prima donna sort who happens to have some talent will often get away with it. It also depends on their company--if they want to behave a certain way in front of their family and friends, fine, but when they're in a public area (such as at a competition), they should be able to behave with more class. I've sat at club events and regionals listening to people I don't even know trash the competition (not critique, trash; there is a difference), behave rudely toward other skaters or behave childishly in general, etc. I don't have any interest in hearing that kind of thing, so if they're doing it blatantly enough that I notice it, they're not behaving maturely as far as I'm concerned. If you want to have a temper tantrum, even a verbal one--and I can definitely understand the urge--do it more privately than in the middle of a big crowd of strangers. There are few isolated places at competitions, but you can always find a corner or go outside.

[Lee]

manleywoman, I would agree with your definitions of 'bad' behavior. In no way, shape or form do I believe crying is 'bad' behavior. Tears are just not always controllable, y'know? Foul language, kicking the ice, rudeness -- those are all controllable. I also don't care if it's a male or female shedding the tears -- tears are tears.

[duane]

i'm curious...does anyone consider surya's backflip at the 98 Olympics--a knowing illegal move--as "bad behavior"? (personally, i yelled "YOU GO GIRL!")

or what about katarina's supposed "psyche" tactics (which included skating to a rival's music)?

[Ellyn]

[quote:d0fba2d5fe="duane"]i'm curious...does anyone consider surya's backflip at the 98 Olympics--a knowing illegal move--as "bad behavior"? (personally, i yelled "YOU GO GIRL!")[/quote:d0fba2d5fe]

No. I figured she knew she wasn't going to medal anyway, or land the triple lutz, so she might as well go for crowd-pleasing move that was going to help her in the pro career she was obviously heading for.

[quote:d0fba2d5fe]or what about katarina's supposed "psyche" tactics (which included skating to a rival's music)?[/quote:d0fba2d5fe]

Well, if she was deliberately trying to psych them out, especially if she was deliberately trying to get in their way during their runthroughs, yes, I would consider it somewhat nasty. If, as she said in a recent interview, she was just enjoying improvising to the music and oblivious to the effect on the other skaters, I wouldn't hold it against her.

[Mazurka Girl]

I'm one of the posters from the other thread who was discussing the bad sportsmanship. I don't think crying is bad per se, but there is a time & place for it. After the performance, if you are disappointed, sure. Who hasn't cried about it at one time or another? However, I tend to think it's inappropriate behavior on the ice during the competition (unless of course there's an injury) & skaters should learn the lessons of competition just like they learn the lessons of skating. When I see skaters crying on the ice during competitions or FS sessions, I usually think they should get off the ice & go calm themselves elsewhere & it's better for them to not be skating while in that state. Especially when others are involved. Do people think it's fine for athletes to cry when they're in the middle of a soccer or lacrosse game? Generally not-it's discouraged & the sportsmanship of the game is encouraged. I feel the same way about crying on the ice during a competition & would not do it myself unless I was hurt.

Some bad behavior I have seen includes yelling & screaming (including profanities) at coaches, judges & officials in public, skaters calling competitors names & encouraging other skaters from their club to join in, demanding that music be started over because the skater wasn't ready for the first few seconds (no error on the part of the music person or referee), having a meltdown tantrum in the middle of the ice at the end of a program to the point they have to be carried off by skating officials, leaving a competition that the skater has started unresolved (such as walking off the ice while the music is still playing because someone had a bad skate & I have seen this many times at different competitions), loudly blaming judges for being blind, stupid, whatever even when all the ordinals are in the same range. Also things like Trillian mentioned as far as parents & other skaters in the stands loudly trashing the competition goes on quite a bit. Off ice tactics like skaters & parents telling other skaters things like "Are you sure you want to eat that? You're going to get as big as a house if you keep eating like that" or "That's the dress you're going to wear?? Do you think it fits you okay & it's not too tight?" along with some other assorted things that happen once in awhle like hiding skates or skate bags. Believe me, they don't make those remarks out of concern for any skaters, I have heard people say things like that to size 0 skaters just to mess with their heads. Not nice, not to mention if any of the skaters & parents doing these things would spend half as much time focusing on their own skating instead, they would probably be much happier with the results. :roll: :roll:

P.S. The Surya thing didn't really bother me, because she chose to do it anyway knowing she would get marked down. But it would have if she did the backflip & then openly whined about her scores, while knowing the choice was totally hers to get marked down for it.

[Mazurka Girl]

I forgot one other bad sportsmanship example: the "I Wuz Robbed You Couldn't Possibly Have Ever in a Million Years Outskated Me" speeches, especially when they step up on the soapbox in front of everyone in the lobby & stands at the competition to make their speech.

[AxelAnnie22]

[color=indigo:20b2c47135]My pet peeve is skaters leaving the kiss and cry before the marks are finished. Suck it up!

As to Surya's backflip - that was definitely RUDE. That backflip was a communication of two words, and they were not "happy birthday", I assure you.[/color:20b2c47135]

[Patsy]

I always thought Surya's backflip was the skating equivalent of what was called in my day "The Finger" or "Flipping the Bird". Very effective, I might add--seems to me she made her point more than adequately. :lol:

[Artistic Skaters]

I will add to the list:

Skaters who refuse to participate in the medal ceremony because they got 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place & thought they should have won.

I have seen this happen probably 7 or 8 times. It it so sad to see young skaters behave this way, & even worse when their parents actively encourage them to do it. One of the times the girl was going to take the medal & when she started to step on the stand, her mother started yelling at her right in front of everyone. It's not surprising to see them grow up & do some of the other things noted here when this is the kind of leadership they experience as children, even though it doesn't make it right. :(

[mikey]

I've got one:

Hiring a Russian mobster to help ensure that you win an Olympic gold medal, possibly at someone else's expense... (okay, "allegedly").

In the evolving scheme of things, I guess a temper tantrum is not such a bad thing after all. But I agree, if you are good enough to actually GET on tv, PLEASE stay in the Kiss and Cry until your scores are completely posted. After all, it's mainly your TV fans that generate the funds that make it possible in the first place...

[lrng to skt]

I LOVED Surya's backflip - it wasn't personal rudeness it was a statement towards rules of an organization she no longer needed to please

I LOVE Kati Witt's displaying her artistry in improvization - they all keep skating anyway, why can't it be to the music; she just always had better rhythm and style

I consider rude (and stupid) - nasty words about other skaters in interviews, even if it is just a refusal to acknowledge them; nastiness towards interviewers in public; whining that anyone wuzzzzzz robbed (it dismisses the winners); deliberately physically intimidating other skaters, as in potentially causing injury to.

I think showing off and onupsmanship is fine and fun.

The only two serious rudeness instances I can think of at the moment are Llyod Eissler and Oksana Baiul. The rest that come to mind were merely annoying...g

[loveskating]

I thought Surya's backflip was a cheap appeal to the casual fan. Of course, underlying my view is the fact that I do not admire the backflip on skates...its a gymnastic thing, and the landings are virtually 100%, which cannot be said of Surya's jumps (or anyone else's). [color=blue:c6f94ee0de]I consider the backflip an enjoyable, but very cheap, crowd pleasing trick that belongs in either an exhibition, or pro skating. [/color:c6f94ee0de], its not hard, and for Surya to metaphorically claim it was and to imply that it ought to be included in the elements of competition seemed another example of appealing to prejudice and ignorance about skating itself.

There is a lot of that: Skaters know their accomplishments...they know the standards, kids who have not yet taken USFSA tests know very well what a proper lutz is, for instance. They KNOW they ought to step up into their axel. They know when the patterns on the ice show an underrotated jump, whether their spins are centered. They know very well what the rules are.

Therefore, I dispise when they claim they wuz robbed when they wasn't...because by so doing, they actually seem to me to be objectively attacking those standards and for utterly selfish, personal reasons. Yet they all have done it to some extent.

I don't mind diva type behavior on the elite level...its a thin atmosphere up there, hard, full of both positive and negative consequences -- and they are all "candles in the wind". However, I utterly dispise off ice Nixonian dirty tricks, like Punsalen & Swallow blocking Gorsha Sur's appeal for a fast track citizenship process; the dirtier the trick, the more I dispise the skater(s) involved.

[Josef]

"Bad behavior".. see AP McDonough's temper tantrum and shouting match with coach following her free skate at Midwesterns this past November. Good thing the event wasn't televised otherwise AP would probably have lost many fans from it. 8O

[Sina]

I can never understand the yelling at your coach thing unless your coach puts on his invisible cape, goes out on the ice and trips you while your skating! :lol:

[lrng to skt]

So reading [b:8cf2c14587]lovesk8tg's[/b:8cf2c14587] post would present the question - is it RUDE to do an "easy, cheap, appealing to only the casual fan , etc." and illegal trick when you are leaving the venue in which it is legal.

Afterall, easy, cheap and appealing is not necessarily rude :lol: ...g

[Scott]

It has always bothered me when a skater leaves the ice and fials to acknowledge then audience. No matter what you shold always do that....

[Bosco]

participating in international intrigue (alleged) has to be right up there. :wink:

[Lark]

Spitting on the ice, whether it be water or saliva, is disgusting. Please grab a tissue, or swallow it. You were not raised in a barn.

[manleywoman]

[quote:da6beccd50="Lark"]Spitting on the ice, whether it be water or saliva, is disgusting. Please grab a tissue, or swallow it. You were not raised in a barn.[/quote:da6beccd50]

AAAGGHH! Yes! I hate that! Alexei Yagudin did it at the Olys. drove me crazy.

[NancyNC]

The classic example of bad behavior to me is Surya's behavior during the medal ceremony at 1994 Worlds. That was what turned me off of her for a very long time.

[lrng to skt]

[b:718f773cc5] 8O Nancy[/b:718f773cc5] - I was thinking about that the other day (do I have a life or what :D ).

I've always really like Surya's personality in interviews (although I admit I really hate her skating) but that one was very very bad...g

[duane]

i'm in the minority regarding surya removing her medal during the ceremony. i see it as the ultimate (and legitimate) protest over what a skater considers bad/improper judging.

i actually thought nancy's behavior during the 94 Olympic ceremony was worst. she was actually [b:84d579307b]scowling[/b:84d579307b] at oksana while the gold medal was placed around her neck!

[Sing_Alto]

In fairness to Nancy, she claimed that the reason she was scowling on the medal stand was because her feet were cramping in her boots, and her sour expression was in no way directed toward Oksana. I really don't think Nancy was the sore loser that some of the skating community, press, and fans assume she was. I think she's gotten a raw deal, actually. The media tried to make her out to be a princess, and when she acted like an actual human being, they turned on her.

[lrng to skt]

Oh Boy - another one I forgot.

Nancy Kerrigan at the pro competition where she made a comment something to the extent of we all get the same amount of money so there is no incentive to care that much, when questioned about a really bad performance.

Actually, I also agree about Nancy's attitude about the silver medal...g

[icenut84]

[quote:a5e7adf2c7="Sing_Alto"]In fairness to Nancy, she claimed that the reason she was scowling on the medal stand was because her feet were cramping in her boots, and her sour expression was in no way directed toward Oksana.[/quote:a5e7adf2c7]

I have the medal ceremony on video. Duane was right - Nancy was quite obviously scowling at Oksana when the gold medal was placed round her neck. I don't know about the boot thing, but as the medal was put on, Nancy was frowning at her with her eyes narrowed and then she stopped and started smiling at the audience. (Plus of course there were Nancy's comments about Oksana)

[Trillian]

You know, one thing does occur to me while reading through this thread: whether or not someone considers a skater's behavior "bad" will often be related to whether a person [i:0cb9e98aec]wants[/i:0cb9e98aec] to think that. If you like Skater A and can't stand Skater B, something Skater B does which totally irritates you may be something that Skater A could do without bothering you at all. I know a lot of people will claim they don't have that kind of bias, but please--it exists in pretty much everyone. (Of course, there is behavior so blatantly offensive that it'll upset someone no matter what, but I'm talking about gray areas here.)

And you also have to consider the fact that the general public's perception of a skater's overall behavior will often influence the way a certain action or incident is viewed. It's similar to something a psych professor I had once discussed--if you're warned before meeting someone, "That person is a real jerk," then upon meeting that person, you're inclined to interpret everything they do negatively. Similarly, if a person isn't really familiar with a skater's behavior but has heard a lot of people saying bad things about it, they'll tend to interpret things more negatively than they might otherwise. This can lead to a snowball effect, with skaters gaining reputations for being rude, arrogant, etc., without much basis in reality. I'd name a couple of examples, but I'd imagine that would start arguments. :)

At any rate, my point is--when "what really happened" is clearly open to interpretation (as is Kerrigan's facial expression on the podium in Norway, for example), it's not really fair to label their behavior as being "good" or "bad." First of all, you don't know for sure what they were thinking, and second, a lot of things besides the actual incident in question will probably be influencing the way you perceive things.

[duane]

i also have the ceremony on tape, and it's obvious that nancy's sour expression while the medal is placed on oksana is not because of her boots! :)

still, even tho i thought nancy's behavior was worst than surya's, i dont consider either as "bad behavior". surya was devastated at being robbed for a consecutive time at worlds (in her mind. i know many dont think she should have won gold); nancy was outraged that the greatest performance of her life wasnt rewarded with the proper medal. later, nancy gave interviews where she claimed the judges were supposed to deduct for mistakes, and in oksana's case, she doesnt feel that they did so. some may consider this "bad behavior", but i think a majority of FS fans agree with nancy (based on the many times the "nancy or oksana" question has been asked on the "other" website over the years, i think nancy always received the majority opinion).

i actually love it when skaters are honest. i wish they were all open in their opinions. i see nothing wrong with voicing disagreement with skating results, or with one skater discussing the faults of another skater, or with a skater removing her medal during a ceremony. when it comes to "bad behavior" displayed by skaters, i cant think of any examples (especially in comparison to the bad behavior often displayed by athletes of other sports). I agree with these expressed examples of bad behavior:

1) not attending a medal ceremony
2) purposely skating too close to another skater during warmup, or skating during another skater's practice time.
3) profanity
4) any activity to "fix" a competition. :wink:

i havent seen any of the top skaters display this type of behavior (tho some have "allegedly" done so).

[lrng to skt]

[b:834a75cd0e]Duane[/b:834a75cd0e] - something you said hit a sort of off topic ???

You mentioned skating during another skaters practice time. When I attended practices at World '91 - EVERY skater was skating the whole time. Seriously, half the time you couldn't tell whose music was on because there were so many people out there doing what looked to be on the music routines (I might add that Surya looked better in practice than I've ever seen her in front of an audience and this was ten years ago).

So what I'm getting at is what's the deal?? Why is skating during someone else's music not OK??

As to the "bad behaviour"; unlike Ms. Manners sometimes I don't think rude is Bad :twisted:

And sure we do tend to be more forgiving of our favs and influenced by things we haven't actually seen for ourselves.

Must say though that there are many skaters whose personality I like and skating I don't and vice versa, but then I realize fully that I am rather contrary at times...

Oh yea, cheating is definitely bad behaviour that is not necessarily rude - you can definitely cheat politely :lol: ...g

[duane]

hey G! :)

perhaps my understanding of the rules isnt correct. i thought that each skater was assigned a specific time to practice, and during that time, they have privilege of the rink.

[Trillian]

[quote:2090634a96="lrng to skt"]So what I'm getting at is what's the deal?? Why is skating during someone else's music not OK??[/quote:2090634a96]

It is OK. There are usually 5-7 skaters on a practice session at events like nationals, and I've never seen them stop skating when someone's music was playing. However, in my experience you could always tell whose music was playing; they'd be going through sections of their program if not skating the whole thing, and other skaters would be more specifically working on jumps and things with many pauses to confer with coaches. If another skater were to skate around improvising to the music it would be pretty obvious on any session I've seen.

Even improvising to someone else's music isn't necessarily a bad thing (although I don't see how it's a particularly good use of practice time). The key is staying out of the way of the skater who's doing their program. The skater who's music is playing unquestionably has the right of way. A few years ago while watching some skaters at a competition practice, I saw one girl [i:2090634a96]accidentally[/i:2090634a96] cut off another whose music was playing. I saw her confer with her coaches, and then skate over to the other girl and apologize after the music had stopped. Even when it happens unintentionally, which it will sometimes, it's still considered something that calls for an apology. (Incidentally, I did witness some bad behavior in the situation--from the girl who got cut off, who only acknowledged the apology with a dirty look. Even a couple of years later, that's still the first thing I remember about that skater.)

[Ellyn]

Huh, on a freestyle session last week, I accidentally got in the way of a skater doing a program runthrough. She was skating backward quite fast and not looking where she was going, I saw her first and said "sorry" as I tried to get out of the way, she then noticed me and shrieked, I said "sorry" again, and then she got past me and continued her program. Afterward *she* came over to *me* to apologize and ask if I was all right. (There was no collision or anything, so why wouldn't I be?) Anyway, that seemed to me an example of "good behavior" beyond the call of duty.

[lrng to skt]

[b:d5a9fc5668]Hi yourself Duane[/b:d5a9fc5668] - it's fun to be posting with you again :D

It's possible that there have been changes in the last ten years, so maybe someone can shed light on that.

Everyone was doing there own thing out there - if they hadn't announced whose music it was in the case of skaters we didn't recognize we often wouldn't have known who was "on" because often others did very nice improvisations while the designated skater chose to practice jumps and such without doing a run through.

Didn't see any rude behaviour either (that's for on topic) :lol:

Since you like her so much though I did want you to know that Surya was one of the ones who improvised and stayed on the ice and she blew us away with the musicality she showed there; we were definitely thinking "now just go do that in the program". Alas, she just tended to get too tight in the competition. Some friends of ours got to talk to her and said she was very nice. Just some tidbits for ya...g

[CherylS]

[quote:802b040c5f="lrng to skt"][b:802b040c5f]Duane[/b:802b040c5f] - something you said hit a sort of off topic ???

You mentioned skating during another skaters practice time. When I attended practices at World '91 - EVERY skater was skating the whole time. Seriously, half the time you couldn't tell whose music was on because there were so many people out there doing what looked to be on the music routines (I might add that Surya looked better in practice than I've ever seen her in front of an audience and this was ten years ago).

[/quote:802b040c5f]

Yeah, they can all skate during someone else's music in practice but if they are polite they are supposed to stay out of the way as much as possible of the one whose music is playing (kind of giving the right of way) so getting in the way on purpose would be bad behavior.

[lrng to skt]

Got it! Thanks...g

[Kruss]

[quote:1936ba8376="duane"]i'm curious...does anyone consider surya's backflip at the 98 Olympics--a knowing illegal move--as "bad behavior"? (personally, i yelled "YOU GO GIRL!")[/quote:1936ba8376]


Personally, I thought it was bad - I didn't applaud it one bit. Surya got the placements she deserved throughout her eligible career, and then some. The way I view it, if she'd learned her basic skating skills and applied them instead of trying to do it her way all the time, she'd have had a better chance of success. Her attitude at times that she felt she should have won was misplaced, and in the end, her backflip at the Olympics was to me as bad as if she'd flipped the judges off (which is in effect what she did).

So no, I didn't applaud it one bit. I thought it was the height of non-sportsmanship.

[ILoveAllSkaters]

I consider 1994's Skategate to be a skater's bad behavior. :twisted:

[Xiaoxue]

Man, i am so bored.

This is a funny thread, though. Before opening it, i was expecting a lot of bashing and feuding between groups of fans. Gladly found out that i was wrong. :)

Okay, spitting in public is definitely the grossest ickiest thing! I can't believe Alexei does that! Ew!!!

I do consider a skater's refusal to stand on the podium and taking off a medal around her neck is very bad behaviour. It is disrespectful to the other skaters on the podium, esp. those above her. There are other ways to express you disagreement with the judges' results, and showing disrespect to your fellow competitors is not the way to go.

I don't find anything wrong with weeping in the K n' C as long as he/she is not bawling uncontrollably. Excersise self-control!

Of all these things everyone has listed, deliberately doing things on the ice that put your fellow competitors' safety at risk is the most unsportsmanlike conduct of all, at any time. I don't see it as being any different from a hockey player high sticking during a game. And such a hockey player would get thrown into the penalty box as punishment!

x.x.

[Chico]

I skate, so I think in terms of folks I skate with.

a bad attitude
actig like you have private ice on a group session
giving unasked for corrections
not being responsible
not being respectuful of your students, coaches, or peers
not being responsible for your ice time or coaches fee
being unkind to your rinkmates

Chico

[Lois]

I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Surya Bonaly's most egregious example of horrible behavior, at the '92 Olympics, when she repeatedly and deliberately did back flips in Midori Ito's way during practice for the short program, ruining Midori's jump practice and quite possibly leading to Midori's loss of the gold medal in Albertville (though we'll never know what might have happened otherwise). The referee admonished Bonaly for her behavior and stopped her after repeated incidents, but according to reports at the time poor, polite Midori was badly affected and Midori had been jumping well before Bonaly's intimidation tactics but lost her triple lutz afterwards and made uncharacteristic mistakes in the competition. Since back flips are illegal in competition, Bonaly's *only* reason for repeatedly doing them in Midori's way was to interfere with and psyche out her competition, and it could also have resulted in injury if they'd collided or Midori had hurt herself aborting a jump to avoid a collision.

Of all the bad skater behavior I've seen or heard about, that's one of my top ones, though Bonaly's behavior at '94 Worlds would also be right up there. I always thought that she was grossly overmarked and that she didn't deserve the medals she did get, due to her grossly deficient basic skating skills, lack of musicality, choreography, line, footwork, good jump and spin technique, etc.. Oddly enough, the one and only thing that I do think she does well are her back flip variations, which really are very well done, but they were never a part of amateur competition.

Lois

[duane]

hi lois.

actually, i was going to mention surya's backflip during the 92 olympics. i wasnt a fan of FS at the time, but happen to find an old Sports Illustrated article on the matter. according to the article, it happened only once, and surya was immediately admonished for it. the article didnt at all indicate that there was a near-collision, and indicated that the move was purely a psyche move ("look what i can do!") on surya's part.

actually, i've never understood why a backflip would intimidate midori. as stated, the move is illegal in competition, so why would surya landing an illegal move rattle midori? IMO, after surya's "look what i can do" illegal backflip, midori should have landed a "well, look what I can do" 3axel in front of surya--which is more impressive, more difficult, and legal! :D

[Lois]

I remember some other coverage of '92 that indicated that Bonaly had interfered with Midori's jump approaches (probably always the lutz approach) multiple times, not just once, and had come close to hitting Midori. I seem to recall that she also did it again even after being warned by the referee. But I don't have the TV coverage or old magazines or newspapers handy to look that up right now. In any case, given that Bonaly could have no legitimate reason for doing even *one* back flip in Midori's way during Olympic *short program* practice, I don't think that there can be any argument that Bonaly was using hostile intimidation tactics against Midori, with all that implies about bad behavior. Bonaly had been on the scene for a while, and there was certainly no question that Midori would be aware that Bonaly could do a back flip in exhibition.

As far as the intimidation factor, I guess you either don't skate or are one of those skaters who barrel around obliviously and expect all the other skaters to avoid you. Personally, I get very nervous jumping with people around me, especially for lutz approaches because of the way those work. Not all skaters would necessarily be intimidated by Bonaly's tactics--I'd guess that Katarina Witt would have just tried to intimidate Bonaly in return--but Midori was always the epitome of the Japanese-style extreme politeness and, despite her amazing athleticism, seems to have had a very non-aggressive approach to her competitors personally and a shy and modest and retiring personality, kind of the opposite of Bonaly. Reports I saw or heard at the time did say that Midori was shaken up and intimidated, and I believe it, because Bonaly's tactics would have done that to me too (not that I'd ever be in Olympic short program practice, but it's a personality thing to some degree). Midori skated with *great* speed (I saw her in person, and her speed was exceptional), and colliding on a lutz approach is really dangerous--I think that's what happened when Oksana Baiul and Tanja S. collided in practice in the '94 Olympics, and Oksana was rather badly hurt. Bonaly's repeated interference with Midori's lutz approaches (and I'm sure it was repeated, even if the interference wasn't always in the form of a back flip) would easily have affected Midori's concentration and practice, and apparently that is indeed what occurred, sadly.

Lois

[loveskating]

Well, collisions happen all the time, at club sessions, freestyle sessions, in warm ups, etc. and mostly they are accidental. I used to stand in the cold and play the music for the competitors going through their programs in practice, one after the other, and put the orange vest on the one whose music was playing, and I did see collisions and most were totally accidental.

I also saw a few elite skaters come into freestyle sessions on an emergency basis and blow the kids off the ice...others complained, but I always said that the kids got a free lesson, LOL!

What I want to know is, why was Surya doing a backflip in the warm up for the SHORT PROGRAM! If that is what she was doing, it was outrageous to begin with, and very possibly what Lois describes!

No one in their right mind would work on a backflip during warm up for the SP since its illegal! The only legitimate place for Surya to do that would have been for her exhibition.

I didn't know about this...really bad behavior!

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by loveskating
What I want to know is, why was Surya doing a backflip in the warm up for the SHORT PROGRAM! If that is what she was doing, it was outrageous to begin with, and very possibly what Lois describes!

No one in their right mind would work on a backflip during warm up for the SP since its illegal! The only legitimate place for Surya to do that would have been for her exhibition.

Well, the explanation I had heard somewhere was that, since the 1992 Olympics were in France and Bonaly was the French medal hopeful, she had a lot of crowd support and was playing to the crowd. I'm prepared to believe that she was oblivious to the effect on the other skaters rather than deliberately trying to psych anyone out.

A few years later, at 1994 Skate America, Bonaly was the second skater in the SP, so she had a long wait (longer than usual -- at least five minutes) while the referee came up with the median mark. (This was the first major competition in which senior ladies were allowed to do a triple jump out of steps so the judges may have been on very different pages, so to speak, in setting the base mark for the first skater -- I can't remember offhand who it was.) She skated around doing various tricks to stay warm and also to entertain the crowd, including doing a couple backflips. One would think that immediately before skating your SP would be an even more inappropriate time to be practicing non-SP elements, but hey, that was Surya. She paid for it, too, by falling on one of her triples in the program and only placing second in the short when she would have been expected to win it.

Which brings up a trivia question -- who was the first lady to land two triple jumps in a short program? :-)

[bunghodog]

i think having a bad attitude towards other skaters and bumping them during practices are bad.

[Lois]

OK, I found a couple skating magazines from 1992, and they back me up on Bonaly's despicable behavior, though I was off on a few of the details on jumps etc.. She did indeed do multiple back flips, Duane, and I know that the overwhelming majority of near-misses and collisions in practice are accidents, loveskating, but I've heard other horror stories of Bonaly's unsportsmanlike and unethical behavior, and I believe that CBS did show a bit of this in 1992, as well, since Katarina's commentary is mentioned (interesting observation from one of the queens of psyching out her competitors!). Ellyn, I have no problem with Bonaly doing back flips when she's alone on the ice waiting to start her program, but in Olympic short program practice with 5 of her top competitors on the ice, including the co-favorite for the gold, under the circumstances described, I don't buy her excuse for a second. Anyway, here are some quotes from 1992 articles:

Tracings magazine, April/May 1992: From the Snowpile.

"One of the most telling moments of Olympic coverage from the point-of-view of skating officials as well as the competitors, must have been the confrontation between Ladies event referee, Ben Wright, and Surya Bonaly's mother.

Bonaly had been doing back flips on a practice session. From the approach, it is difficult if not impossible to tell what is coming. She did one very close to Midori Ito and so unnerved Midori that she spent the rest of the practice looking around before she did anything. Spectators felt that Bonaly, who had done the same thing at a previous competition, was psyching Midori out.

Wright told Bonaly's mother in no uncertain terms that she was to cut it out. (he could have expelled her from the competition and perhaps started an international incident). When Mrs. Bonaly started to protest, he cut her off, saying, "Don't do it.""

Same issue, Sandra Stevenson's Olympic coverage of the short program:

"The shock of the event came in the next group, when Midori Ito fell on the triple lutz. He coach...nearly went into cardiac arrest. She had not seen her pupil fall on that jump in competition for many years. The trouble was that Midori had been planning a triple axel. She practiced all week with it in her program, but had been having a great deal of trouble which was accentuated by Surya Bonaly's questionable behavior.

As Midori would approach the triple axel in her runthrough of the program, Surya would do a somersault, which drove the home audience wild. It looked to be a psyching game which Katarina Witt, in Albertville commentating for CBS, described as unfair. Kati said, "It was almost cheating. This is not playing a fair game, and it is actually really rude. She can't use this move in competition so why is she doing it right before Ito does her combination? It is not a good attitude."

Referee Ben Wright obviously agreed and told Surya to desist from doing the move in practice. Surya's coach, Didier Gailhauget, denied that Surya was doing it on purpose and explained that she was doing it because, "It gives her strength and gives her courage because it gets the audience with her. Also, the others cannot do it, and it is always nice to do what the others can't do." [Lois' comment: We've all seen this year how much credibility Didier has, and he was also the one who admitted that he had come up with the Reunion Island lie about Bonaly's birth as a publicity stunt (she was really born in Nice, France, but he liked the sound of Reunion Island...). And Bonaly was never able to do Midori's triple axel combinations, nor the triple axel in competition...]

From Blades on Ice Spring 1992 by Gerri Walbert:

"I can't believe Ito fell on her triple Lutz and that she didn't try the triple Axel. She was doing the Axel so well when she arrived here. I have to think that Bonaly doing the back somersault at critical times when Midori was going through her routine may have psyched her out."

I'm sure that I could find other coverage if I looked, but I hope that this answers the Bonaly defenders. Re-reading the coverage, I'm even more disgusted at Bonaly's unsportsmanlike sabotage of Midori, who was an absolutely amazing and very gracious skater.

Lois

[Black Sheep]

At some competitons, I've tried to introduce myself to other skaters and strike up a friendly conversation only to have them turn up their noses at me, not wanting because they placed 'way higher and I placed 'way lower. I'm NOT making this up!
:roll:

[NiceIce]

At local competitions I can see why some skaters dont care about doing the little podium scene, not out of disrespect, but simply because it doesnt mean much to them. At first, its a big deal, but after awhile its no big deal to hop up there in front of just a few parents for a medal "ceremony" and I see why some of the teenagers skip it.
When you are 9 years old though, you want any ribbon, any medal, any photo op and attention you can get!
So thats not bad behavior at all to me.
I think loudly protesting the marks that are posted is rude, and should be done in private.
I think leaving the ice without finishing your program and crying during your program is a bit much at a competition , but anger during practices is ok because it is a normal part of sport to be frustrated and upset.
To me the public aspect is during the competition, and thats when I would judge bad behavior, not after a program or during a practice.

[Imo]

Originally posted by NiceIce
At local competitions I can see why some skaters dont care about doing the little podium scene, not out of disrespect, but simply because it doesnt mean much to them. At first, its a big deal, but after awhile its no big deal to hop up there in front of just a few parents for a medal "ceremony" and I see why some of the teenagers skip it.


Also, for local competitions, often skaters have to leave before the ceremony is held - this happens to me sometimes when I'm competing in NY/VT (I live in Montreal) and I'm getting a lift with other skaters or it's getting late - or they are busy competing in another event that has been scheduled at the same time. Or, sometimes, they don't know what time the ceremony is at and miss it...

[duane]

well, whether surya did the backflip "multiple" times or just one time, i dont at all buy this theory that surya's backflip was the reason midori fell on the 3lutz in the short program. i just hate it when someone attempts to blame soneone's mistake on another. IMO, midori's mistake in the short program was nerves...not because of surya's backflip, but because she was considered the favorite to win gold, and because her country expected nothing less but gold from her. that is a LOT of pressure, and when it came down to deliver, midori faltered.

unlike midori, surya has always been a lightning rod for bad press, and i think all those who state surya was the blame for midori's mistake in the SP are just looking for another reason to be critical of surya. and, i question Tracings magazine's claim that surya landed a backflip "very close" to midori. it seems unlikely to me that she would land a backflip so close to another skater that it might cause a collision--which could not only cause serious injury to the other skater, but to herself. i think the magazine's obvious disdain for surya played a role in their portrayal of surya as the evil villain, and in their attempt to place everything that went wrong in midori's performance on surya.

[Lois]

Duane, no one will ever know how Midori would have skated without the additional stress and unsportsmanlike interference by Surya in practice. She might indeed have collapsed under the Olympic pressure anyway, of course, but the bad practice situation certainly did not help. But it isn't just one magazine that has it in for Bonaly, and no one says definitively that her behavior was the *only* reason for Midori's problems.

If you look at the quotes that I was able to find easily, the people publicly criticizing Bonaly's behavior as illegal, unsportsmanlike, and/or harmful to Midori include not just two skating journalists but also both the Olympic referee and two-time Olympic champion Katarina Witt. I am sure that there were other writers who criticized her behavior too, but I don't think the newspaper coverage from 1992 is available online, and I don't have my old clippings handy. And I think that CBS did show a back flip that was too close to Midori in their Olympic coverage, but I am not 100% sure of that.

Anyway, it bothers me when someone tries to make excuses for inexcusable behavior, but I've seen too many bad Bonaly examples over the years to cut her any slack. She got a lot of bad press because she did a number of things that *deserved* bad press, IMHO (and the press practically ignored one of the most disgusting examples, the fake Reunion Island story, although given her age at the time I blame that one on her coach and mother, not Surya personally, plus I've heard of other incidents that got no press at all). If you had been following skating back then and seen the coverage (and Midori's career up to and including that point), you might feel differently.

Lois

[Mazurka Girl]

I agree with Lois - Surya shouldn't have been doing it on practice sessions that close to any other skaters. When even Katarina Witt, who was a master of the game in her time, says you can't play win the warm up that way & it's unfair, it's time to heed everyone's advice & instructions! Arguing with the official about your right to do it after you've been told not to do it & why is a bad idea & could be considered unsportsmanlike in & of itself. Surya's camp caused their own bad press over the years.

[duane]

earlier, i stated that i consider it bad behavior to "purposely skate too close to another skater during warmups". so, if surya purposely performed a move (any move, whether an illegal backflip or a legal lutz) "too close" to midori, i consider it bad behavior. however, if surya and midori both just happen to set up for their moves at the same time, and midori was "psyched out" because she thought surya was going to land a triple jump but she instead landed a backflip, well, i see that differently.

and to emphasize, i totally understand why many consider surya's backflip as bad behavior, and have no problem with that. however, i do have a problem with the articles' attempt to blame midori's mistake on surya.

[loveskating]

If its true, as Ellyn says, that Surya often did backflips in the warm ups, then its possible that her intentions were honest (but not too smart, IMHO, especially in the warm up for the SP). Even if the refereee called her on it, that does not mean that her intentions were evil...it just means that she was put on notice that she should curb it.

Those who have never skated don't seem to realize that bumps, collisions and near collisions are a constant in skating. They happen all the time, from the very beginning. Therefore, for any skater to be rattled by a collision which did not injure them is absurd on the face of it, IMHO...collisions, bumps, and near misses just simply happen all the time in skating and no skater should be rattled by it...they are trained and know how to deal with all of this.

The ONLY time there is no danger of a collision is when you have the ice to yourself...

[Mazurka Girl]

I skate & a lot of incidents deemed accidental are actually preventable. Frequently even though someone didn't do it on purpose situations could have been prevented in the first place by following standard ice etiquette.

If Surya wanted to put a backflip in her competition program, than I may not agree with it myself, but that's her option. Put in in the program, take the mandatory deduction & don't whine about it. But skaters at elite level know the rules of the road. It's still rude & selfish when they keep cutting into everyone's space even when it's unintentional. There are always a few who develop a reputation for it while the rest of their competitors (including skaters who are just as aggressive & assertive with their skating) don't seem to have problems in that area.

[Marco]

So what is the Reunion Island story?

Anyway Ellyn, is the answer to your question Lu Chen?

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by Marco
Anyway Ellyn, is the answer to your question Lu Chen?

No, Lu Chen was not at 1994 Skate America, which was the first "major" event to allow two triples in the ladies' short program.

The winner of the short program there, and the only skater to complete both of the planned triple jumps, was Irina Slutskaya.

I can't speak to what happened at Nebelhorn or St. Gervais or any other senior events that took place earlier in that season, but Slutskaya did win Nebelhorn that year.

[duane]

i think i have this competition on tape. isnt this the one where practically everyone but irina fell in the SP, and where irina had the disasterous LP, with 4-5 falls?

[Ellyn]

In answer to Duane's question . . . Yes, that's the one.

[Lois]

Originally posted by duane
earlier, i stated that i consider it bad behavior to "purposely skate too close to another skater during warmups". so, if surya purposely performed a move (any move, whether an illegal backflip or a legal lutz) "too close" to midori, i consider it bad behavior. however, if surya and midori both just happen to set up for their moves at the same time, and midori was "psyched out" because she thought surya was going to land a triple jump but she instead landed a backflip, well, i see that differently.

But Duane, if you read all the reports, they consistently say that Surya *repeatedly* did a back flip whenever Midori was setting up for her triple axel combination in the practice session--once might be an accident, perhaps even twice, but from these reports I don't think there's any real question that this was a deliberate pattern designed to interfere with Midori's triple axel combination practice. And apparently this had happened before in practice (I think both skaters were in the Lalique Trophy that season).

Originally posted by loveskating
If its true, as Ellyn says, that Surya often did backflips in the warm ups, then its possible that her intentions were honest (but not too smart, IMHO, especially in the warm up for the SP).

As a clarification, the Olympic incident was not during a warm-up, it was an official practice session for the short program, where the music is played and the skaters take turns skating their complete programs (with the skater with music playing having the right-of-way). For those who don't know the difference, the warm-ups are the 6 minutes or so before a group of skaters do their programs in competition where they are out on the ice with no music, doing whatever they feel like doing to warm up before the competition. And as I said above, I have no problem with Bonaly doing her back flip before a competition if she was the *only* skater on the ice, but when she was interfering with other skaters, that's a whole different ball game.

Originally posted by loveskating
Those who have never skated don't seem to realize that bumps, collisions and near collisions are a constant in skating. They happen all the time, from the very beginning. Therefore, for any skater to be rattled by a collision which did not injure them is absurd on the face of it, IMHO...collisions, bumps, and near misses just simply happen all the time in skating and no skater should be rattled by it...they are trained and know how to deal with all of this.

Well, I skate myself, and I disagree strongly with this. Part of it is personality, where some people will be shaken up or rattled by collisions or near-collisions that others will ignore (often the ones who aren't rattled are the ice hogs/ice hazards). Another difference is that skaters who train in rinks with plenty of top skaters and shared ice will be more used to near-collisions than those who train on private ice or with no other top skaters around most of the time, and since Midori was sort of alone among top Japanese women at the time, my suspicion is that she probably was used to private or uncrowded ice and not used to being harassed or intimidated. There's also the Japanese culture of extreme politeness, which would have ill prepared Midori for Surya's intimidation tactics. And then it wasn't just a casual practice, it was the Olympics, with all the extra stress that entails.

About the Reunion Island scandal that the press largely chose not to cover, when Bonaly first appeared on the scene, she got an *enormous* amount of publicity and press coverage, totally out of proportion to her skating while she was still way down in the standings, because of a "human interest" story about her having this wild, exotic background of being born on Reunion Island and adopted by caucasian French parents, with all sorts of other side PR stunts, like stories about her never having cut her hair (there were rumors that she wore a wig and that this was also a PR stunt, but I don't know if that's true). That got her a great deal of TV coverage in the US, and apparently around the world as well.

Anyway, after her mother fired her coach, Didier Gailhauget (the current French skating president who's now suspended by the ISU for the SLC Olympic judging scandal), he went to the press to expose the fact that Bonaly had been born in Nice, France, with no exotic background at all, and that he had made up the Reunion Island story as a PR stunt (very successful, unfortunately) and had chosen Reunion Island because he liked the sound of it. CBS mentioned this briefly once, as I recall, but overall the media reaction was to cover up the way they'd been successfully fooled and manipulated by DG and the Bonalys and not correct the story or publicize what should have been a scandal, IMHO. If not for DG's anger at being fired, and his obvious lack of any shame or remorse for his own part in the lies, I'm sure that we'd *still* be seeing PR puff pieces on Bonaly's amazing exotic origins on Reunion Island...

Lois

[duane]

Originally posted by Lois
if you read all the reports, they consistently say that Surya *repeatedly* did a back flip whenever Midori was setting up for her triple axel combination in the practice session--once might be an accident, perhaps even twice, but from these reports I don't think there's any real question that this was a deliberate pattern designed to interfere with Midori's triple axel combination practice. And apparently this had happened before in practice (I think both skaters were in the Lalique Trophy that season).

well, if that's the case, one would think that midori would have been used to surya's tactics, and that surya's backflip during practice would not have been so surprising to midori that it would "rattle" her--so much so that she would fall in the SP. a person's psyche is often rattled if something unusual happens--something that takes them by total surprise, and causes them to lose their composure (and takes some time for them to regain it). this wouldnt be the case if surya "repeatedly" did a backflip in the practice session. also, one must ask that if surya "repeatedly" did a backflip in the practice session, why did it take so long for the referee to tell her to stop? wouldnt the referee have told surya when she first landed a backflip to stop doing so?

again, i think we both just feel differently on the issue. even if midori had skated a perfect SP at the 92 Olympics, i'm sure that you would still consider surya's backflip as bad behavior. many consider surya's backflip in the LP at the 98 olympics to be bad behavior, even tho no one was affected negatively by it but surya. again, we just feel differently on the issue.

[Lois]

Originally posted by duane


well, if that's the case, one would think that midori would have been used to surya's tactics, and that surya's backflip during practice would not have been so surprising to midori that it would "rattle" her--so much so that she would fall in the SP. a person's psyche is often rattled if something unusual happens--something that takes them by total surprise, and causes them to lose their composure (and takes some time for them to regain it). this wouldnt be the case if surya "repeatedly" did a backflip in the practice session. also, one must ask that if surya "repeatedly" did a backflip in the practice session, why did it take so long for the referee to tell her to stop? wouldnt the referee have told surya when she first landed a backflip to stop doing so?

again, i think we both just feel differently on the issue. even if midori had skated a perfect SP at the 92 Olympics, i'm sure that you would still consider surya's backflip as bad behavior. many consider surya's backflip in the LP at the 98 olympics to be bad behavior, even tho no one was affected negatively by it but surya. again, we just feel differently on the issue.

In the first place, I am not at all sure that Midori had the same practice intimidation experience at Lalique or somewhere else--the reference to an earlier competition wasn't specific, and even if they were both at that event it could have been a different skater who was the target or in the same practice group (was Kristi at '91 Lalique?). Secondly, in the Olympic practice Surya came very close to hitting Midori, according to Tracings, which may not have been the case in the previous competition (whoever the targeted skater was there). Thirdly, it was the Olympics, with all the extra pressure that entails.

As far as the referee is concerned, he should indeed have told Surya to stop the first time, but he may have wanted to give her the benefit of a doubt at first, he may not have seen the first incident or two (after all, there are 6 skaters on the ice, plus possible distractions), he may have hesitated to interfere in Olympic practice, as I expect that there would be some disruption and delay involved in first getting hold of Madame Bonaly and then getting Surya's attention to stop her, or maybe the referee did try to act promptly but required some time to get hold of her mother, argue with her, etc. while practice was going on. I don't know enough of the details to judge the referee's promptness.

Finally, although I expect that we will never agree on '92 or '94 (and yes, I *would* feel the same about Surya's rude and unsportsmanlike practice behavior if Midori had skated a perfect Olympic short), I actually agree with you on '98. As you say, that time no skater was affected by her behavior except Surya, and so long as she didn't complain about her scoring deduction after the long I have absolutely no problem with her doing whatever she liked out there. In fact, I think her back flips are her best move, and so long as she isn't hurting other skaters I'd rather see her do those than anything else in her repertoire.

Lois

[loveskating]

We will never know Surya's intentions, but it seems the evidence that she purposefully attempted to thwart Midori, while possible, and legitimate to raise as a possiblity, IHMO, is just not conclusive. It can be said with relative certainty that Surya did not always have the best attitude, LOL!

On the other issue, some amount of bumping etc. is built into skating, just as catching a toepick is built in. Quite often, mistakes are simply built into a system.

Is there a USFSA database as to how many near misses, bumps and collisions there are in competition warm ups? If the referee calls them, one could subtract from that in a given time period and determine the precentages and rate of increase or decrease?

If so, then if someone accused my daughter of intentionally bumping, and that was put forward as the truth by the media, I would certainly take them to court in a slander suit and subpoena those records.

Even though the referee is responsible to call such things...given the fact that at least one big deal was made last season when the referee called absolutely nothing, I will say one thing: if my daughter were skating at the elite level, I would now videotape all competition practices and the ENTIRE warm up in order to protect her from charges like this...and I'd pay for it personally if necessary. Therefore, if anyone wanted to charge her with this sort of thing, then they would know they might have to prove it. You can't really sue the media, but you sure can sue the charging skater(s)...and presumably, even a federation referee.

[Mazurka Girl]

Originally posted by loveskating
If so, then if someone accused my daughter of intentionally bumping, and that was put forward as the truth by the media, I would certainly take them to court in a slander suit and subpoena those records.
Sounds like it would be a lot of wasted legal fees to me, but have fun with your slander suit if you ever decide to pursue it.

Media has access to videotape & photographs like everyone else & are usually recording it themselves. Plus they have reporters covering events live, a few who might even be experienced in skating. They are permitted to report about what they see, even though we may disagree with their assessment.

Unintentional 'bumping' is often negligent & preventable. It may not be just as often, but I disagree that it's always accidental & skaters don't need to be responsible simply because they say they're not doing it intentionally. Comments are going to be made when skaters overlook or disregard ice etiquette.

Surya got bad press for many different reasons over the years, although her mother probably got more, LOL. But it was not only one thing here or there & she brought it on herself. If she had spent as much energy analyzing her skating as she spent complaining & doing these other things, she would be remembered as a much better skater who made more of a positive impact.

[LilRedRidingHood]

loveskating wrote:

"If so, then if someone accused my daughter of intentionally bumping, and that was put forward as the truth by the media, I would certainly take them to court in a slander suit and subpoena those records.

Even though the referee is responsible to call such things...given the fact that at least one big deal was made last season when the referee called absolutely nothing, I will say one thing: if my daughter were skating at the elite level, I would now videotape all competition practices and the ENTIRE warm up in order to protect her from charges like this...and I'd pay for it personally if necessary. Therefore, if anyone wanted to charge her with this sort of thing, then they would know they might have to prove it. You can't really sue the media, but you sure can sue the charging skater(s)...and presumably, even a federation referee."


Understanding what you are saying is hypothetical "If someone accused my daughter..." I just have to ask why you would sue someone for saying your daughter bumped into them? I understand that you may want to "clear her name" of false allegations, but if what you assert is true ( bumps are a part of skating as much as cathcing a toepick is ), why would you go to court to "prove" your daughter didn't bump into someone else? Especially if bumps and collisions just come with the territory?

I don't undertand what your daughter would have suffered by the allegation, even if it were false? Would you do it simply so others wouldn't think she was a "bully"? I don't understand where you're coming from on that statement.

[loveskating]

In answer, and quoting myself:

"If so, then if someone accused my daughter of intentionally bumping, and [B]that was put forward as the truth by the media[/], I would certainly take them to court in a slander suit and subpoena those records."

Again, after what happened last season, where all sorts of accusations were made via the media and from it, without ANY referee calling anything, I would very seriously suggest to any elite level skater that they videotape the entire practices and warm ups...its not expensive if not done at high artistic quality, once you have bought the camera (probably about $1,000 for a really good wide angle lens package -- about one week of training cost for an elite level skater) and I wouldn't really rely on the network. What does a 3 hour tape cost, $1.99 in NYC is all. Practices are no more than an hour or so, warm ups a few minutes.

[AxelAnnie22]

I'm with loveskating on this one!

The problem is not that one skater bumped into another. That happens. The problem is that many people in the media, who had access to tapes of the "BUMP", went on to say that Sasha INTENTIONALLY bumped into Michelle. When someone makes an unsubstantiated, and false accusation, in writing, that is slander. The media has a responsibility to NOT make accusations they cannot back up, and they could not back this one up!

Reporting the bump is not the problem. Making a false accusation of intentional bumping is quite another.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by loveskating
The ONLY time there is no danger of a collision is when you have the ice to yourself...

Unless you crash into the boards! 8)

[LilRedRidingHood]

AxelAnnie and loveskating-

I understand what you are saying - that slander was committed if it was provable the bump was unintentional. Maybe my question was not clear.

What I want to know is what "damage" was caused? Did someone suffer other than being accussed of bumping into someone in a skating practice? That may be legally construed as "slander", but I don't understand why loveskating would take someone to court over it - since we have agreed bumps and catching a toepick are a part of skating?

Maybe I am not seeing the terrible "damage" being associated with the unintentional bump would cause the skater in question... At least not enough damage to warrant a lawsuit.

[nits]

Actually, it wasn't just the incident with Michelle Kwan that was reported on. If I remember correctly, there were also reports of Sasha bumping skaters during Skate America practice sessions and other skaters besides Michelle Kwan at Nationals.

[Badams]

well...maybe the reason sasha and michelle didn't make a big deal out if the whole "bumping" is because there isn't a big deal to be made. they obviously didn't let it bother them to the point of fighting it out over and over again. i think that their fans are silly to do so. i'm sure that these two ELITE skaters have had to deal with collisions MANY times!

i think that bad behavior skaters have is bad mouthing other skaters and judges when they think they were entitled to the gold. i understand being disappointed...but sometimes they go too farr!

[Rachel]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
I'm with loveskating on this one!

The problem is not that one skater bumped into another. That happens. The problem is that many people in the media, who had access to tapes of the "BUMP", went on to say that Sasha INTENTIONALLY bumped into Michelle. When someone makes an unsubstantiated, and false accusation, in writing, that is slander. The media has a responsibility to NOT make accusations they cannot back up, and they could not back this one up!

Reporting the bump is not the problem. Making a false accusation of intentional bumping is quite another.



Hmmm. Did someone in the media say that Sasha INTENTIONALLY bumped into Michelle?

I believe that several reporters wrote that Sasha had been skating very close to Michelle and while I believe they IMPLIED that the bump was either intentional or the result of bird-dogging-gone-wrong, I don't remember any of them openly saying so. I can't believe any of them would be foolish enough to do that. If all they said was that Sasha was skating too close and/or cutting Michelle off on the ice and that there was a collision or two as a result, then it would be pretty hard to prove slander. It's hard to sue a journalist for slander, especially if you are a public figure.

[loveskating]

You can sue the media, but you won't be successful because of the case law...so its a waste of time and money.

However, you can certainly sue the skaters accusing you -- for slander, which is a civil matter and the remedies are money damages, and I don't know, but I bet one could win. If you win, whether the media covers that would be their business...but some of these skaters have very deep pockets, and I bet a jury would award high money damages.

The irreparable harm is loss of reputation. When skaters accuse another skater of intentionally bumping or colliding with them for the purpose of affecting the outcome, then that goes to the issue of character, ergo, its a slander issue.

Of course, if you accuse a skater of this sort of thing, and the media picks it up, then subsequently, they have to be so careful in the warm ups that they can't get their jumps in...so such accusations have a huge affect on the skater accused as well; its not as if the accusations are neutral, to the contrary, they are clearly extremely hostile, and especially if made to the media.

Once a case is in court, you could then be entitled to subpoena the network tapings of warm ups, but I personally would not rely on that...with tapes, you can prove that (1) nothing happened at all and someone is outright lieing; (2) whatever happened was trivial; (3) what happened happens all the time; (4) as compared to other collisions, this one or these was so egregious it could have only been intentional.

Even if it is claimed that more bumps/collisions happen when "this" skater is around, that also could be proved or disproved.

Its very, very hard to prove intent when something happens all the time (again, I would expect there to be some kind of record in the federations since the referee can call skaters on this so it could be proved how often this happens. Medical records cited as resulting from bumps and collisions in skating could also be assembled. I know that the USFSA rinks have insurance on the rinks...so this would be available, although perhaps not assembled.) Seems to me a lot of facts could be assembled.

Therefore, to put everyone at ease, it would just be better to tape the warm ups, etc. If those accusing are righteous, then they have nothing to fear from that.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Badams
well...maybe the reason sasha and michelle didn't make a big deal out if the whole "bumping" is because there isn't a big deal to be made. they obviously didn't let it bother them to the point of fighting it out over and over again. i think that their fans are silly to do so. i'm sure that these two ELITE skaters have had to deal with collisions MANY times!

i think that bad behavior skaters have is bad mouthing other skaters and judges when they think they were entitled to the gold. i understand being disappointed...but sometimes they go too farr! Not so quick about that. Sasha was quickly getting the "bad girl of skating" lable. And, Michelle thought it was enough of an "issue" that she did NOT put an end to the whole thing, as she could so easily by simply sying: "No big deal. I am sure it was an accident. Happens all the time in a crowded rink". Don't you remember Michelle's interview in TV Guide? Remember when Anton crashed into Jamie, knocking her down? That did not become a big deal because all the parties involved, when interviewed, said "It was a simple accident". That is all it takes to stop things from taking on a life of their own. Jamie's crash was much bigger than any bump Michelle got, yet Sasha bumping into Michelle was reported as though she was skating around with a baton in her hand, looking for knees to wack! LOL!

[icenut84]

Originally posted by AxelAnnie22
Remember when Anton crashed into Jamie, knocking her down? That did not become a big deal because all the parties involved, when interviewed, said "It was a simple accident". That is all it takes to stop things from taking on a life of their own.

Not to be nitpicky at all ;) but it was actually Jamie that crashed into Anton, not the other way around. Anton and Elena were setting up for a throw and Jamie collided with him forwards. It was a simple accident though.

[Rachel]

Yes, it was Jamie who crashed into Anton. But no one accused Jamie of following Anton too closely before it happened. And you can bet that if it HAD been Anton who had run into Jamie instead of it being very obvious that it was the other way around, the boards would have been full of rants about Eville Anton trying to sabotage the competition, regardless of what was said by the parties involved. I remember seeing a bit of that as it was.

If Michelle said that Sasha didn't run into her on purpose, wouldn't she be reading Sasha's mind, just as a reporter would be if that reporter accused Sasha of doing it on purpose? Michelle didn't write any of the articles about Sasha; Michelle has never, to my knowledge, accused Sasha of running into her deliberately. It is ridiculous to blame Michelle for the brouhaha. And to say that the media had some sort of plot going against Sasha is just silly. Why would the media care? If they wanted to attack someone for being a threat to the great MK's reign at Nationals, they would have descended on Sarah Hughes like a pack of bloodhounds after Skate America where the threat became obvious. Instead, Phil Hersh and Christine Brennan, the two most widely read of the SashaGate reporters, declared Sarah the rightful winner of that competition over Kween Kwan. Sasha has never beaten MK; Sarah has and had before Nationals. They would have to have been blind, deaf and dumb not to see Sarah as a huge threat, yet Sarah has always escaped unscathed in all these conspiracies.

The whole thing would have died months ago if people didn't keep bringing it up. Most of the people who bring it up are people who seem to feel the need to clear Sasha's name. If it was obviously an accident, then let it be. You'll never convince anyone who believes it wasn't that it was. And you sure as heck aren't going to convince anyone that there is some kind of great media conspiracy against her because it simply doesn't make any sense. It's not as if they made it up--Sasha DID run into Michelle twice during the warmup. That IS news. You don't see a lot of collisions in senior level figure skating warmups, particularly not among the top contenders, especially not twice. Whether she meant to do it or not, she did it, the reporters saw it, they wrote about what they saw and it got published. That's not slander; it's sports coverage.

[Hannahclear]

ITA Rachel, and as a big fan of BOTH skaters (yes it is possible), I think that it's time to let this die. Neither skater did anything wrong.

[adrianchew]

Originally posted by Hannahclear

ITA Rachel, and as a big fan of BOTH skaters (yes it is possible), I think that it's time to let this die. Neither skater did anything wrong.

Done. ~adrianchew~