"Figure Skating is not a sport." Help me come up with counter arguments!

[Luce]

Hello everyone! Well, here's the deal: I'm in a club called JSA (Junior State of America), and it's basically a debate/political&social issues discussion organization. I'm the the Cabinet, and all the officers are working on debate resolutions/topics and briefs to go with them. The point of a brief is to give a quick summary of the topic and provide points for and against the topic. One of the "fun" resolutions I have to do this year is:

Resolved: Figure Skating is not a sport.

Can you believe how indignant I was when I read that? Granted, this debate topic is supposed to be a "fun" one, and not to be taken seriously, but darn it if I'm going to let it go! I could definitely fire off several counter points to that topic right now, but I figured I would ask you smart people for your thoughts too. Any arguments--for OR against--this debate topic would be greatly appreciated. In fact, if some of you could try to think of some arguments FOR the topic, I'd be very grateful too! I just thought it'd be fun to get everyone's opinions and piece them together for the debate brief. So if you could please please please help me out in any way, thanks!

Take care, all,
Luce

p.s. Facts are good. Very good. :)

[Dustin]

Hey, Im in JSA too.

Thousands of hours and dollars are spent to send skaters into a competitions. Also it is in the Olympics - so how can it not be considered a sport.

Skating has a governing body, such as the NFL (which is not really an international sport to say the least) and NBA.

Want facts? Here is a website where you can find sport history:
http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/history.shtml

Another fact - during the Olympic controversy, I believe the results of the pairs LP were brought to an organization called something like the Council of Arbitration of sport (something someone else could give the proper name for). Therefore, it is considered a sport.

There aren't really many counter arguements for saying it is not a sport. :roll: The only one I can think of is it doesnt have a bunch of big guys chasing after a ball. :P :roll: ;)

[mikey]

Originally posted by Dustin
There aren't really many counter arguements for saying it is not a sport.

I think you could easily make an argument that skating is a competition and not a sport. Things to consider might include: Are there other sports that include things like "artistry" or "presentation" in the score? Or where so much emphasis is placed on costumes and makeup?

To help outline your argument, I would start with the definition of an athlete, and then consider whether skaters are athletes. If skaters are athletes, and athletes make up sports, then skating is a sport...

[Artistic Skaters]

Probably one of the main points as to why it's not considered a sport is going to be that it is a subjectively judged activity, vs. an athletic activity that can be measured objectively strictly in terms of speed, distance etc. So you should prepare for that argument.

[Luce]

Thanks so much for helping, everyone! :) I think I've got quite a couple arguments FOR the resolution; now--how about some more against it? Or countering the pro arguments that you guys presented (which, by the way, were very helpful)? I was initially going to use the Merriam Webster dictionary definition of "sport" and use it to pertain to figure skating, but then I realized that that one is rather old-fashioned, and doesn't quite have the same meaning it takes on today. So...scratch the definition idea. I also couldn't use the defining athlete idea because a sport is not necesarily defined as being composed of athletes ( I would need a source stating this).

Any more ideas, please? :)

Thank you again to everyone who is taking their time to help me out with this--I really appreciate it!

~Luce

[Artistic Skaters]

When they argue it's a subjectively judged sport, you should reference the USFSA rulebook regarding required elements, mandatory deductions, qualifying competition rules to counteract their argument.

Another good argument would be how much harder it is to master some of the skills in sports like skating & gymnastics as opposed to sports like long distance running or even some of the ball sports like volleyball. Look up some technical information or check with a master rated coach for some good details to include.

[Orable]

wrt it being a subjective and judged sport--so are diving and gymnastics. for some reason, they are considered 'real' sports while FS is not.

Also, why don't we compare the body fat of a figure skater, with say a baseball player or even a golfer...gee, I wonder who has more?

Also the amount of training and physical exertion on skaters' bodies has to be the same if not more than other sportsplayers, isn't it?

I don't know...is this the kind of stuff you're looking for?

[duane]

i would just challenge those who claim that FS is not a sport to put on a pair of ice skates, jump, complete three revolutions, and land without falling on their rear ends! :)

[rjblue]

One argument to counter the "sujective, judged" sports versus "pure, unequivocal" sports like figure skating, is that all sports have subjective judges. I remember when the british sprinter was disqualified for false starts at the olympics. He was furious at the referee! I've seen weightlifters argue when it has been judged they didn't hold long enough. I've seen swimmers disqualified for improper turns. When collisions occur in many sports, a judgement is made. And athletes, and commentators often say the judges were mistaken.

About the makeup and costume thing- well baseball teams are certainly fussy about their uniforms, many athletes wear jewelry, and look at the outfits that freestyle skiers and snowboarders wear.

also- I don't think this question can be debated without defining "sport". If sport is team a against team b, with the most goals winning then figure skating is not a sport. If sport is striving to meet or exceed a physical challenge then it unquestionablly has many elements to it that are sport. (It also has many that are art, but that isn't the issue)

[Sing_Alto]

ITA, Duane! Skating is not only a sport, but I believe it is probably the most difficult sport to master.

Another argument I use when defending whether it's a sport or not: I ask the person (always of the male persuasion, of course): "Do you think golf is a sport?" If they answer "yes", I ask, "Have you ever seen a tubby golfer?" "Yes." Then I ask, "Have you ever seen a fat elite skater?" "No." "I rest my case!" :)

[rjblue]

About the fat versus fit proof- many athletes have body fat to help them- judo, weightlifting, sumo wrestling :) An athlete might not be challenging his fitness, they perhaps are challenging their reflexes, or fine motor control(shooting, curling, archery) Figure skating is a MORE difficult sport because it requires so many aspects of sport- fine motor control and timing, reflexes to recover from bad ice, fitness to perform straight out for 4 minute, strength to perform those triple jumps, flexibility and agility to have the right positions. The skaters body requires so much training that the sport cannot be learned in adulthood to a competitve level, unlike sports such as running, biking, rowing.

(Do you want us to argue that it isn't a sport :D )

[Imo]

This is similar to topics that I've discussed in a couple of classes (I'm in Leisure Science). I believe skating is a sport.

First, you have to have a clear definition of what is a sport - is ballet a sport? It's definitely athletic and ballet dancers are in great shape... Is chess a sport? It's a head-to-head competition... What about cheerleading? NASCAR? Golf?

Here's my definition of a sport:
A sport must
- be athletic (require physical exertion, aerobic)
- be competitive (goal is to win, not just presentation)
- organized competitions (not just pick-up games)
- be nationally organized (have a national/international governing body)
- has rules guiding participation

Other possible attributes that have been brought up in my classes:
- have an unambiguous result (subjective sports like skating would be disqualified)
- must have a coach
- level of risk (possibility of injury)
- has a defined season
- must be a team activity
- uses in-competition strategy
- ... there were many others, but I can't think of them off the top of my head...

So, using my definition, it is a sport (it's athletic, the goal is to win, it has organized competitions, many national governing bodies and rules regarding participation.) In comparison to the rest of my class, my definition is pretty broad - many in my class would not include figure skating (it is subjective, not on a team, no playbook to follow...). Some didn't even include tennis, cycling or running (not a team)...

[melanieuk]

You buy expensive equipment.
You train hard all year round.
You spend loads of money - and need much more.
You need strength, stamina, mental strength and plenty practice.
You break sweat every time.


If that's not sport, what is?

[loveskating]

Without a knockout, boxing is a judged sport. Baseball has an element of "judgment" in it because it has an umpire. Basketball, football all have refs, and speaking as a former competitive basketball player, I can assure everyone that refs call it entirely wrong some times...and just like in skating, always when its a very tough call!

IMHO, on the Net, what feeds the view that skating is not a sport is the way some fans play fast and loose with the rules on behalf of their favorites.

Skating is complex, and a lot of sports writers don't seem to want to take the time to really learn it, much less to research even.

[Dustin]

Well, if they bring up the whole judging aspect, my school's baseball team (District Champs 2 years ago) lost in the finals for another District title and it was later found that the umpire had been paid off (I was there and I dont know much about baseball and he must have been blind to called outs when they clearly were not).... So it happens in all sports, not just skating.

[Lark]

I once had a "conversation" with someone who said that Figure Skating was not a sport.
His argument was that skaters become skaters for lack of talent to do anything else, such as basketball or baseball.
Yes, he was completely serious.
I brought up the ability to do 3 or more rotations in the air.
He said that if he had the ability to simply skate fast and throw himself in the air, he would rotate too. (Which actually is true to an extent. The rotation is going to happen naturally in the air, from what I understand.).
His argument is that a skater does not learn how to ROTATE but to LAND. Landing is not a sport. 8O LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
My final argument was that any beer bellied man or woman can play baseball, as long as you can swing a stick and run.
You HAVE to be in some form of optimum shape to compete in Elite Figure Skating.
It was a very exhausting "conversation", to say the least. :?

[garyc254]

A high school American football coach told my son that "soccer is not a sport. That although it required teamwork, coaching, a ball, and game schedules, it's an athletic activity".

Hmmmm... an athletic activity? Isn't a sport an athletic activity?

I see no way you're going to be able to argue your point without utilizing the full definition of "sport". Anything else would be strictly opinion.

[CMc]

ITA with all of you.
I just reside myself to the fact that the people that say skating isn't a sport are much more content watching a football game in a cold, snowy stadium in painted, shirtless bodies screaming obscenities at athletes 100 feet away from them.:roll:

[speedy]

I am a fan of many sports (college football, basketball and NASCAR being my favorites) and have had this argument myself with co-workers. I can see both sides...but incidents like what happened to Jamie and David and the Mr. T fix bring a lot of this "figure skating is not a sport" stuff up in the first place. I think people have a hard time seeing something as a sport when outside influences and corrupt (or incompetent) judging determines the ultimate winner. I think the sport closest to skating as far as it being a judged sport is gymnastics...does it get the same stigma from the public as being a non-sport? It certainly has a lot of the same characteristics as skating, including the bad things such as young athletes with eating disorders. As far as the "presentation" side of skating...if you took all that away and made everybody skate the same program to the same music and the same moves, it would still be a sport but it would be pretty boring...oh wait, that's compulsory dance. ;)

[habanero]

Here is a definition of a "sport" from Websters:

sport n.
ME sporte, aphetic for DISPORT
1 any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion
2 such an activity, esp. when competitive, requiring more or less vigorous bodily exertion and carried on, sometimes as a profession, according to some traditional form or set of rules, whether outdoors, as football, golf, etc., or indoors, as basketball, bowling, etc.

I would assume the operant definition desired is definition 2.
Figure skating defenitely meets the criteria of 1 and 2 combined. An argument that it isn't because skating uses Judges is silly, all sports use Judges (also known as referees). In some, the Judges are quite active (like skating and gymnastics), in others moderatively active (like ski-jumping, long-jumping), and in others much less active (like hockey, football, baseball and basketball).

And yes, Judges (referees) in football also create scores -- such as when they determine a player is in or out of the end zone. It's hard enough that instant replay is often used professionally. But not at the high school level.... FYI -- photo finishes are used in lots of races (track) too. And guess who looks at the photos? A Judge. Sometimes it isn't 100% clear who won. The Judge makes the call.

[icenut84]

I have a book called "Ice Stars" that had photos and mini-biographies of skaters. In it, it explains that, because of the music, costuming and glamour, many people don't recognise the true physical demands. Elite skaters need the stamina of a long distance runner, the power of a high jumper, the mental focus of a top tennis player, the balance of a dancer and the flexibility of a gymnast. Couple this with the ability to interpret music through movement.

Figure skaters have to perform flat out, mostly at top speed, for up to four and a half minutes. Ice hockey players rest after 45 seconds. I think I read something about oxygen uptake capacity (?) too, which is a definite measure of athleticism, and how it is higher for skaters than most other sports.

You could bring up the subject of injury, if people still refuse to believe in the athleticism. You could talk about Tara Lipinski, and all the trouble she's had with her hip. Have you read the article she wrote about it, where she also lived with the threat of DVT (deep vein thrombosis)? If not I can find it for you. Her doctor took one look at the triple loop/triple loop and said "never do that again". You could also talk about Elvis Stojko, and what his 98 LP did to him. I forgot the details (maybe someone else knows?) but I believe at the end of the program, he had torn muscles and a pinched nerve among other things. Injuries have affected him a lot in his career. You could also mention Isabelle Brasseur, who I heard suffered smashed ribs on a pairs throw, Sasha Cohen, who had a stress fracture in her back, and Shae Lynn Bourne's knee injury that meant they had to miss the whole of the 2000 season (and Irina Lobacheva's knee injury too).

One of the strongest arguments people will make will probably be the judging, the controversy etc. I agree that the answer to that is to point out that there is subjectivity in every sport. Judges, referees, umpires all have to make decisions in close contests. There have been plenty of controversial instances in every sport. Remember John McEnroe (?)'s famous outburst about the ball being on the line and not out, as the umpire had called it? :) Plenty of decisions come under fire, not just in skating.

[Dustin]

If you want to talk about serious injuries, look up that of Paul Binnebose who had a very serious pairs injury (I forget the exact details). Elena Berezhnaya also had serious pairs injuries, but again I forget the details.

Here is a good source for info on Elena:
http://www.elena-anton.com/theirstory.php

[bellyflop]

Is there any doubt that snowboarding (ie the style events, 1/2pipe,1/4 pipe and slopestyle) are sports? These events are judged in much the same way skating is. Snowboarders are judged with respect to speed, amplitude and presentation or style, much like skaters! As in skating, strength,speed,agility and plyometric training are required to be at the elite level. :)

[rjblue]

:D Snowboarding is a sport?? Oh, man, I'm really stoked now.

[meli]

K, for those of you who know me, you've heard these two little tidbits before. But I'll give you my two favorite things I remember about figure skating.

1. I got this out of Sports Illustrated several years ago and it's stayed with me ever since: The Triple Axel generates enough torque to shatter the human femur if it is landed incorrectly. Not many "legit" sports can lay claim to a move that can cause such extensive injuries.

2. The reason the Triple Axel is (still) so hard to master has to do with a brain illusion. When you jump backward and spin (like most jumps) nothing happens, but if you jump forward and spin your eyes do register the movement with your brain. Your brain suddenly gets the message that they eyes can't see anything, which leads the brain to think you've jumped out into nothing. When your brain perceives that you've jumped into a void, your body goes into survival mode, which means muscles tense and all that. A skater learns to override the problem by intense concentration during the jump, which is why so many say they think about technical things. Most athletes in all sports have to rely on their intense mental fitness to be successful.

[Gaela]

Well, it is a sport but some would say it is a silly sport and should not be classified as sport.

Horror of horrors I came across the US National Cheerleading Championships on TV one day; cheerleading could be considered a sport by some. Say ballroom dancing competitions--is dancing a sport? It could be.

There are all kinds of silly sports; lawn bowling, for example. Darts. Is throwing darts a sport? Could be.

It is impossible to successfully argue that figure skating is NOT a sport; you can only argue that it makes a mockery of sport because of both subjectivity and scandal.

Don't forget a lot of these sentiments about skating are generated by homophobia--many North American guys are very uncomfortable with the topic because they truly believe all the guys who do it are guy.

And, it IS possible for a figure skater to be fat--anyone see Artur Dmitriev at the Sears Open last year? (still sexy though). Liz Manley had her chubby moment on ice too. However most skaters are very active and would watch what they eat because fat is not cool in skating. Even 'normal' weight is not cool. I can never figure out how these female athletes, who have way more muscle than the average person, weigh so little.

[duane]

Originally posted by Gaela
And, it IS possible for a figure skater to be fat--anyone see Artur Dmitriev at the Sears Open last year?

WHAT??? dmitriev is now overweight? is this overweight in the manner of, say, 90's william shatner bulging out all over in his star trek uniform?

[Lark]

Originally posted by Gaela
And, it IS possible for a figure skater to be fat--anyone see Artur Dmitriev at the Sears Open last year? It is possible to skate while being out of shape, but it is NOT possible to compete and win as an Elite figure skater and be out of shape. You have to have a very good semblance of great physical condition.
Artur in Nagano was still in kicking shape.

[icenut84]

Originally posted by Gaela
I can never figure out how these female athletes, who have way more muscle than the average person, weigh so little.

Remember the height thing though - most skaters are actually very small. Female pairs skaters are smallest (usually under about 5ft2 I think), ladies are small too, and dancers can be a little taller but are still usually small in person. Height makes a big difference in weight.