Marie-Reine Le Gougne is back...but in a good way

[Ivan W]

Story from ESPN

French skating judge takes credit for new scoring (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter06/figure/news/story?id=2295452&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines)

[elanboy]

meh...she got off easy...at least after the 3 year ban, she is eligible to judge in Turino again. The true heroes and scapegoats are the British judge and American referee at Salt Lake. I believe they have both been banned for life from the ISU for speaking out. As well, I think they were both partly responsible for the ill-fated attempt at setting up a new figure skating union...

[Schmeck]

My goodness, she must be smoking something... Do we thank the mass murderer for gun control laws?

[Moto Guzzi]

meh...she got off easy...at least after the 3 year ban, she is eligible to judge in Turino again. No, she was also excluded from participating in any capacity within the ISU in the 2006 Winter Olympics. Personally, I think judges who cheat should be suspended for life. A three-year suspension is a joke. And don't forget about the Russian and Ukranian judges who cheated at 1999 Worlds; their respective 3 and 2 year suspensions were cut in half after they appealed. :roll:

[loveskating]

No, she was also excluded from participating in any capacity within the ISU in the 2006 Winter Olympics. Personally, I think judges who cheat should be suspended for life. A three-year suspension is a joke. And don't forget about the Russian and Ukranian judges who cheated at 1999 Worlds; their respective 3 and 2 year suspensions were cut in half after they appealed. :roll:

She denies she cheated, and claims she was forced to sign the affidavit after verbal abuse for hours and hours.

I go with the skating, and there was no reason to claim that any of those judges cheated, because those pair skates were very close. Therefore, I do not believe she did anything wrong and I believe her.

Look at the ladies SP in SLC and do the math if you want to see real corruption.

[crayonskater]

It's ice skating. To say the corruption ended with one French judge is a bit.... credulous. I am pretty sure she was a scapegoat.

[NoVa Sk8r]

My goodness, she must be smoking something... Do we thank the mass murderer for gun control laws?Agreed!

Also, then, thank you for a million Beillmann postions/spins in each and every competition! :evil: :P

[Moto Guzzi]

She denies she cheated, and claims she was forced to sign the affidavit after verbal abuse for hours and hours.

I go with the skating, and there was no reason to claim that any of those judges cheated, because those pair skates were very close. Therefore, I do not believe she did anything wrong and I believe her.

Look at the ladies SP in SLC and do the math if you want to see real corruption.The only judge on the pairs panel at Salt Lake City who was accused of cheating was Marie Reine Le Gougne and that was because she herself admitted to the referee immediately after the event's completion that Didier Gailhaguet had pressured her to vote for the Russians even though she felt the Canadians deserved to win.

According to numerous news sources, after the pairs competition she told the referee "You don't understand! You don't understand! The pressure is enormous! There is so much pressure that my federation, that the president, Didier, put on me to put the Russians first! You've got to help! You've got to help!" Had she not said this to the referee in the first place, there would have been no accusations of cheating. The competition was very close and a strong case could be made for going with either team. The cheating accusation came about not because she voted for the Russians but because, if Gailhaguet did indeed put pressure on her as she claimed, she had an obligation to report it to the ISU and did not do so.

In the words of the decision of the Council of the ISU in the disciplinary matter of Ms. Marie Reine Le Gougne and Mr. Didier Gailhaguet, she was suspended:

"a) for misconduct committed on February 11, 2002, in violation of ISU rule 426, paragraphs 4 and 5, by giving the pair Berezhnaya/Sikharaulidze from Russia first place in the free program of the pairs event of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games upon the instruction of Mr. Didier Gailhaguet, the President of the Federation Francaise des Sports de Glace, although in her own opinion the pair Sale/Pelletier from Canada presented a better performance, and

b) for violation of ISU rule 125, paragraph 3 by not reporting immediately and before the end of the pairs event of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games that Mr. Didier Gailhaguet, the President of the Federation Francaise des Sports de Glace and an ISU Council member, had instructed her to give the first place in the pairs event of the 2002 Olympic Winter Games to the pair Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze from Russia."

[loveskating]

Whatever, I've heard all this...I was on every word for weeks!

I feel very bad for her because the skating was SO close, it was going to be a very tight thing, everyone knew that, so there is no reason to think that anyone cheated. I think she was scapegoated, used. I see scapegoating a lot "down by the river", where people do not have the power to fight back!

I'll say one thing: never has so much been made of a bad runout on a SECOND 2 axel in a pairs program, or a very tiny forward lean on a throw! It was amazing to watch all that again and again on television! Course the small lack of unison on Jamie and David's SBS spins and her being slightly forward on one throw was not replayed again and again, and not mentioned by the commentators!

OTOH, I had been wishing there was some way to award two gold medals because I so loved both those pairs and still do.

Maybe there should be such a thing, eh? Two gold medals some time, in a tie? Couldn't that be fun? I've always hated it when two skaters were so evenly matched, like the two Brians, yet only one got the gold.

Hurry! Someone send a memo to the ISU!

[LTM]

Boy you never hear swimming fans whining (or maybe you do) because swimmer A out touched swimmer B at the wall by 1/100.000th of a second.
Figure skating has now become as precise so it will come down to a bad
runout on the second triple axle, and other tiny tiny little errors. Too darn
bad. That's the nature of sport.
This particular judge fried herself the minute she opened her mouth to say
she was being pressured but had not reported it.
Athletes get suspensions and lifetime bans for doping. Well any judged sport
has to be "pure as the driven snow" for results to accepted and even hints
of cheating cheapen the outcome.
That woman shouldn't be judging, period.

[loveskating]

She is not judging.

I don't think she should judge either. Judging has hurt her enough, as being humiliated on the world stage is no small thing to deal with.

Judges volunteer you know. I wouldn't myself -- I'd be afraid.

[Schmeck]

Why would you be afraid to be a judge? If you were honest and unbiased, what would the problem be?

She admitted to cheating, even though she felt she was 'under enormous pressure" (maybe she should have just farted, she sounds so full of gas now...) and people say she was a scapegoat? She's either lying now, or lying then. I don't think anyone has come up to her to thank her at all!

[LTM]

I don't give a rat's behind if they volunteer or whatever. The rules are in place, passed by the ISU. It states that attempts to pressure judges are to
be reported. She didn't do it.
Now I actually think this lady did get a bit of a raw deal. I think the investigation into this stopped with the French as if no one else would involved. I mean come on, it's a pretty one sided fix if it's only the French.
However, to have her act
as all of this is someone else fault, forget it.
She is not the first judge to have to stand up to pressure. If we wind up with a marking system less susceptable to political interference great,
but I am not thanking this woman for helping to make the sport of figure skating look fixed and foolish.

[Ivan W]

Unfortunately, even with the success of the new system (and I am reminded by these very words from another person in this forum years ago), the only way to make sure that judging is fair is to have the wrath of God laid on any judge who does cheat.

I don't think that we have seen any real laws or orders from Speedy on this regard.

[loveskating]

Unfortunately, even with the success of the new system (and I am reminded by these very words from another person in this forum years ago), the only way to make sure that judging is fair is to have the wrath of God laid on any judge who does cheat.

I don't think that we have seen any real laws or orders from Speedy on this regard.

Well, perhaps he shoud start with the American judges in the ladies SP who cheated beyond belief.

[kermit]

Well, perhaps he shoud start with the American judges in the ladies SP who cheated beyond belief.

What are you referring to?

If you're going to make a statement like that, please back it up and explain.

[Ivan W]

Well, perhaps he shoud start with the American judges in the ladies SP who cheated beyond belief.

Let it go...

[Moto Guzzi]

Well, perhaps he shoud start with the American judges in the ladies SP who cheated beyond belief.Well, first of all, there was one American judge in the ladies' SP, not "judges", and that judge was Joseph Inman. Joe is a man of integrity and absolutely would not cheat, nor have there been any accusations that he has ever cheated--not in the 2002 Olympics, not in Worlds, not at Nationals, and not at any competition he has ever judged. It would be totally out of character for him.

Joe was one of five judges who had Michelle Kwan in 1st place; the other four judges had her in second. Had he been a person who "cheated beyond belief" he would have placed her higher in the freestyle, and she would have won the gold medal.

Your accusations are ridiculous.

[loveskating]

Well, first of all, there was one American judge in the ladies' SP, not "judges", and that judge was Joseph Inman. Joe is a man of integrity and absolutely would not cheat, nor have there been any accusations that he has ever cheated--not in the 2002 Olympics, not in Worlds, not at Nationals, and not at any competition he has ever judged. It would be totally out of character for him.

Joe was one of five judges who had Michelle Kwan in 1st place; the other four judges had her in second. Had he been a person who "cheated beyond belief" he would have placed her higher in the freestyle, and she would have won the gold medal.

Your accusations are ridiculous.

Oh puhleeze! Inaman's job was to keep Sarah within striking distance, in case Kwan faltered.

Jane Torvil (of Torvil and Dean) and numerous other skaters, said that Irina should have won that SP. IMHO it should have been Irina, Sasha, Kwan, maybe Butereskaya and maybe Sarah Hughes!

If the SP had been judged fairly, then the outcome of the LPs would have been different.

Its as plain as day.

[crayonskater]

I kind of doubt it was judge fixing. Partisan, perhaps. But to claim that the American judge (singular, not plural, which strains this further) had a plan in SLC to first give the gold to Kwan, and then, if that failed, give it to Sarah strains credulity.

I mean, imagine going into this. "Okay, Joe. We're sending Michelle, Sasha, and Sarah. Michelle and Sasha are our top contenders after Nationals, but instead of fixating on them, I want you to concentrate on Sarah. Make sure she's in fourth after the SP. No, no, I realize putting her in third would make it easier to pull off this fix solo. Wait. Put Sasha third? And then give Sasha the gold? No? Instead we're going to pull a complicated fix so the fourth place person jumps to first while Michelle gets the bronze?"

I mean, really. If you wanted to fix the medal so it stayed in American hands no matter what, I doubt you'd do that by hoping the person in fourth skated well enough that you could fake it. And I don't think you'd be able to predict before the SP started that Sarah would have the skate of her life and Irina would bauble AND Michelle would fall. (And that you'd do all this while ignoring that all you have to do to keep the gold American is vote for Sasha.)

And it's really hard to argue that Irina was definitely better than Michelle. It depends quite a lot on who you talk to, and in any case, it was a 5-4 vote.

That makes it pretty close and gives them a nearly equal chance to win. In most plausible scenarios, then whomever wins the LP wins the gold; there's not much difference between 1, 2, 3. To say that the whole master plan depended on giving Michelle first so she could mess up on the free skate, finish third, and allow Sarah to win by having a flawless free skate really requires nearly divine foreknowledge. If you really wanted to cheat, all you would have had to do was have Michelle finish second in the LP and Irina third.

(Wouldn't a far more likely outcome if you were trying to manipulate this is that if Michelle falls, Irina wins, so put Irina in fourth during the short? If you had to bet ahead of time?)

[loveskating]

And it's really hard to argue that Irina was definitely better than Michelle. It depends quite a lot on who you talk to, and in any case, it was a 5-4 vote.

Not hard at all -- Irina was flawless, and had much harder footwork, and also did a 3 lutz/2 loop combo, as well as doing a huge 2 axel and a perfect, huge flip. WHen it comes to edging, the basics, Irina is clearly superior to Kwan (or Sasha, for that matter, generally) and Irina's spins are considerably higher quality than Kwan's. Irina is not as fluid and her spiral sequence probably did not get as high presentation marks.

Kwan was tight, tentative, and also she underrotated her flip, almost fell on it in fact. Her jumps are considerably smaller than Irina's, her spins are inferior.

All you have to do is look, open your eyes, get rid of the hype and the pressure being put on you, and SEE.

[crayonskater]

So... the other four judges that voted for Michelle... were they part of this conspiracy? Or did they maybe have a different opinion? Figure skating is largely subjective, but that doesn't automatically mean exceptionable bias.

Without COP, Irina's superiority in spins didn't count as highly (though we can certainly argue it should have), and many don't care for Irina's artistry (I happen to love it). Fluidity often matters more than it should, but I'm hard pressed to see that it was so clear that it should have been unanimous (in any case, the rest of the conspiracy theory is even more farfetched.)

[loveskating]

So... the other four judges that voted for Michelle... were they part of this conspiracy? Or did they maybe have a different opinion? Figure skating is largely subjective, but that doesn't automatically mean exceptionable bias.

Without COP, Irina's superiority in spins didn't count as highly (though we can certainly argue it should have), and many don't care for Irina's artistry (I happen to love it). Fluidity often matters more than it should, but I'm hard pressed to see that it was so clear that it should have been unanimous (in any case, the rest of the conspiracy theory is even more farfetched.)

You draw conclusions I never did, then argue with what you said I said, not what I said!

Did I once use the word "conspiracy"? I don't believe there is a conspiracy. Corruption does not imply conspiracy!

I don't care why Inman marked as he did, he did is all, but I do believe he intended the outcome he got.

[crayonskater]

No, you didn't use the word 'conspiracy.' Let's look at logic, though. Again, it's hard for one judge to throw the whole competition when he's one vote of nine. To say that it was his job to get Michelle the gold or to make Sarah get it, like I said, either implies a conspiracy, or strains credulity.

If you disagree with his personal vote, and find it to be objectionable, surely you find the same of the other four judges? If it was so obvious, then what of the other four?

If they need to 'start with the judging at the ladies short program', then you're either in the awkward position of arguing that the only person at fault is the lone American judge, and the other judges were right in preferring to vote for Michelle (which seems not to be your position), or you're arguing that anyone that voted for Michelle was favoring her unjustifiedly over Irina, presumably because they wanted Michelle to get the gold. (What's stopping the other judges from SEEing?)

If it wasn't fixed, and you didn't mean to imply it was fixed (since one American judge does not a fix make)... then what's the problem here? That one judge didn't SEE but the others did? All you wanted to say is that the American judge hoped an American skater would win?

[loveskating]

No, you didn't use the word 'conspiracy.' Let's look at logic, though. ...

You must be projecting.

Mathwise, I don't think it takes 4 judges, it only takes one in both the SP and LP...which is probably why, when I never mentioned him, someone else mentioned Joe Inman. As I said, his job was to keep Sarah, who should not have been 4th in the SP, in striking distance if Kwan failed.

Personally, I don't care much about the medals so I don't focus on such things much -- I know perfectly well who I like whether they get medals or not.

I just dispise the massive insults to our intelligence and the coercive behavior of enforcing the self serving preferences of some elite cabal on the work a day American people, of which I am one.
eople.

[sadya]

I agree with that one, Slutskaya should have won the short, in the short, the emphasize lies on technique. She should have been in first place. Kwan second. In reality, she should have had the gold, because if she would have been in first place after the short, where she in reality belonged, then Hughes could never have overtaken her.

(saying this, I am a fan of Kwan, Slutskaya and Hughes, even a little more fan of Kwan actually)

[loveskating]

In the SP imho it should have been Irina, Sasha and MK, then if I recall, Maria, and then maybe Sarah.

I agree, the outcomes would have been different if the SP had been marked fairly. After the LPs as skated (which is pure specualtion since we don't know how they would have skated with different pressures or lack of pressures) I'd have marked it Irina, Michelle and Sasha because Sasha fell on her lutz combo, which cost her a lot by the rules, while MK fell on her flip but got the lutz combo and second lutz.

[elanboy]

I thought Irina was way overmarked technically in the LP as compared to Sarah. She basically had the same technical marks that Sarah scored, and even had one judge score her higher. Michelle was overmarked technically in the LP as well, with mostly 5.7s, but the judges kind of pigeon-holed themselves with the scoring when they held Sarah's tech scores at mostly 5.8s. Since Irina deserved higher tech marks than Michelle did, they had no choice but to give her mostly 5.8s as well. Sarah really should have had tech scores in the 5.9 range, but the judges held their marks because she was the earliest of the contenders to skate in the final flight. Anyway, it worked out right in the end with Sarah winning the LP. She definitely had the best skate of the night and deserved her win. She skated with such abandon and seemingly no pressure, and it showed. It was definitely reminiscent of Tara's skate back in '98, when she deserved the win over Michelle, even if just barely... ;)

[elanboy]

Oh puhleeze! Inaman's job was to keep Sarah within striking distance, in case Kwan faltered.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you implying that there was a conspiracy to keep Irina from winning the gold medal, and give Michelle some breathing room to finally win that elusive gold medal? If so, this is the first I've heard of this, and if it's as "plain as day" as you seem to intimate, wouldn't there have been some sort of investigation into the judging of this event too, in light of the scandal in the judging of the pairs event? Or is more than one scandal per Olympics too much for the organizers to take? ;)
As well, nevermind Sarah, where is Sasha in this whole scenario?


Jane Torvil (of Torvil and Dean) and numerous other skaters, said that Irina should have won that SP...If the SP had been judged fairly, then the outcome of the LPs would have been different.

While this point may be true, and again, I'm guessing that you're suggesting a supposed win by Irina. She more than had her chance to win, but just couldn't skate well enough to do so. She already had Kwan and Cohen beat, and only had to skate better than Hughes, but with no 3/3 combo and some iffy landings on a few other jumps just didn't cut it. Just as Kwan only had to stay ahead of Slutskaya to win, and she couldn't do it either. Bottom line is, the best skater won that night and Hughes deserved it. Ever since they got rid of the school figures after Calgary 88, whoever skated the best LP has won the Olympics as it should be...save Albertville 92 when Petrenko won over Wylie and Lillehammer 94 when Baiul won over Kerrigan, but don't get me started on these travesties...lol

[loveskating]

google news and then type in "figure skating".

There are lots of articles (with POV all over the map) on SLC "scandal" today.

I do hope they don't focus on this because in the US, its only going to keep people away from skating and especially, parents will not allow thier kids in a sport they know to be corrupt -- and they are not going to change anyone's opinion -- not mine, that's for sure.

I see ESPN is already building for some "controversy" in ice dance, eh? How pathetic.

I have no idea what their goals are, except that it seems to me they seek to win off the ice what they cannot win on it. Tanith and Ben do not need to be degraded with this stuff, because they can very well win on their own, thank you very much, you sicko bureaucrats with nothing better to do than foment conflict and war like actions!