MK withdraws from Nationals [Archive]

Schmeck

01-04-2006, 02:50 PM

I'm sure Kwan will have to skate both her programs for a slew of USFSA officials/techs/judges before they decide if she should represent the USA at the Olympics. Unlike Bondo, the USFSA will actually wait and see if she is ready before making a decision :lol: :roll:

It will be interesting to see if Cohen can handle the added pressure of being the favorite now - and if a National title will be as satisfying without a victory over Kwan.

I don't think it's a sure thing that Kwan will get her bye - with Meissner and Cznisy (I'd better learn to spell that, huh?) in the hunt, and with strong skates from them at Nats, it will be a tough call.

What if Cohen comes in third at Nationals? :twisted:

crayonskater

01-04-2006, 03:02 PM

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Michelle should get a bye because Kerrigan did; I doubt she will unless marketing considerations weigh heavily on the US committee, as she hasn't competed all fall.

I suspect if they don't select her for the Olympic team, they'll allow her to withdraw her application rather than reject her plea outright.

But assuming that whatever criteria they use were to prove satisfactory (again, really unlikely, but maybe they'd screen her program to judge if she was healed), which I think is highly unlikely, it would be nice if fans were to refrain from shrieking bias (because a healed Kwan is arguably better than Czisny/Meissner, though probably not Sasha these days) just as it would be nice if Kwan's fans wouldn't deride Sasha's probable victory at Nationals as hollow because she didn't 'take' the crown from Kwan.

elanboy

01-04-2006, 03:16 PM

I don't believe Kwan's bid should be rejected outright, but at the same time she should not be given an automatic bye into the Olympics either. Let us just see how well the other skaters that have "surpassed" Kwan skate at the nationals. The pressure at this nationals will be enormous, and without Kwan there should be even greater incentive to really skate well and show the federation that you deserve to be on the team. A top 3 finish in a "splatfest" would not bode well for the selection committee, because then who would you chose? I hope they make Michelle skate her programs after nationals, to warrant her even being considered this time around...

triple twist

01-04-2006, 03:25 PM

Kwan should retire and help develop young skaters as a coach in my opinion. she's already beenthere and its being proved that she isnt a top skater in the world anymore. Yuo cant go the whole season without training hard and then just expect and olympic spot. What proves to us that she deserves it? cmon girl, just accept it.

Debbie S

01-04-2006, 04:35 PM

OK, here are the USFSA Oly selection procedures (from the article):

The remaining spots will be determined by the U.S. Figure Skating International Committee following the conclusion of each discipline, and are based on placement at the following events: 2006 U.S. Championships, 2005 Grand Prix Final, 2005 World Championships, 2005 Four Continents Championships, 2005 Junior Grand Prix Final and 2005 World Junior Championships.

The article makes it clear that she has a right to make the petition (so she is following the rules) and the USFSA's decision whether to grant her request is within established Oly selection procedures.

And let's review the facts: MK finished 4th at Worlds last year. In contrast, Alissa Czisny finished 6th at this year's GPF (where the 2nd (Sasha) and 3rd (Kostner) place skaters from last year's Worlds did not compete) and Kimmie and Emily have never even competed in a top-level int'l event at the senior level - they were 3rd and 4th at last year's Junior Worlds. MK has 9 national titles and 5 world titles and last year was her first year off the Worlds podium in 10 years, and it was extremely close between her and Kostner. Yes, I know that's her most recent result, and maybe it's part of a downward trend, yada, yada, yada, but let's keep this in perspective. Nancy Kerrigan went into the '94 Oly season ranked 5th in the World, due to a complete meltdown at Worlds the year before (whatever you say about MK at Worlds last year, you can't call it a meltdown), had 1 Nat'l title (with a less than stirring performance) and 1 Oly medal (again, with a less than stirring performance). I'm not trying to take anything away from Nancy (I'm a fan), I'm just making a comparison.

The fact is, no other American woman currently skating has achieved the kind of success and has the reputation for consistency that MK does. Does anyone here think that Czisny, Meissner, and Hughes all would finish higher than Kwan at the Olys? I'm not saying that none of them could, but when the USFSA officials look at the 3rd place skater at Nats (whoever that will be) and compare her results and performance in the comps above to MK, as long as MK is certified to be physically able to compete, the right thing to do would be to name her to the team.

duckies77

01-04-2006, 04:46 PM

Had she been doing well in the recent past and clearly had a chance to nab the gold in Turino, I would say give her the "bye" but I agree with Bondo. She's not competitive, has no chance to medal, and it's time for her to graciously move on and give one of our up and coming skaters a chance to get some international exposure.

What happened to Kwan's earlier quote that she wanted to earn her spot on the OLYMPIC TEAM!! :giveup:

Tapper

01-04-2006, 04:57 PM

So much for breaking the record of most U.S. titles.

She can still do it in 2007, if she wants to.

Tapper

01-04-2006, 05:02 PM

Tapper

01-04-2006, 05:06 PM

What happened to Kwan's earlier quote that she wanted to earn her spot on the OLYMPIC TEAM!! :giveup:

Read the article. A groin injury happened.

Schmeck

01-04-2006, 05:57 PM

3 important dates involved:

January 13 - Kwan's doctor says that's when she should be cleared for full time skating.

January 16 - all athletes must be cleared physically for competing.

January 30 - final date to let TOC know the Olympic team.

So, USFSA has until the 30th (26 days from today) to make a final decision.

edited to add quote from USFSA article on selection process:

Prior to the date of the 2006 U.S. Olympic Team nomination, Jan. 16, 2006, U.S. Figure Skating medical personnel must verify that the athlete(s) will be physically ready to compete at the 2006 Olympic Winter Games. The USOC must then approve the nominations no later than its final required submission date of Jan. 30 to the Torino Organizing Committee.

NoVa Sk8r

01-04-2006, 06:29 PM

I'm sure Kwan will have to skate both her programs for a slew of USFSA officials/techs/judges before they decide if she should represent the USA at the Olympics. Unlike Bondo, the USFSA will actually wait and see if she is ready before making a decision :lol: :roll: Actually, what's been reported is this:
"The organization will not be flying out anyone to observe Kwan's skating. Rather, a physician will verify that Kwan will be ready to compete by Feb. 21st, which is when the ladies' event begins at the Olympics in Turin, Italy."

MusicSkateFan

01-04-2006, 07:23 PM

:evil:

My gut says.." She's had two Olympic opportunities already when she was at 100%..why should the USFSA just bow down to the Almighty Kwan and Give her what SHE wants! Does she really need that PEWTER medal?"

Reality says, "Who else can we send? The ladies pool is shrinking so badly right now...I mean Michelle and Sasha are the only REAL contenders.

UGHHHH!

Alaska

01-04-2006, 08:27 PM

:evil:

My gut says.." She's had two Olympic opportunities already when she was at 100%..why should the USFSA just bow down to the Almighty Kwan and Give her what SHE wants! Does she really need that PEWTER medal?

UGHHHH!

She has a massive amount of fans and a lot of them only want to see her skate so that is why she rules. A perfect example is Marshalls. It is all in Michelle's hands -- if she wants to be there all hell will break loose if they don't send her. But I personally don't think she has any intention of going to the Olympics.

If I'm right, I hope the Olympics don't end up being all about Michelle and Mao and how the gold medalist wouldn't have won if they had been there.

Aimless

01-04-2006, 08:44 PM

. But I personally don't think she has any intention of going to the Olympics.

If I'm right, I hope the Olympics don't end up being all about Michelle and Mao and how the gold medalist wouldn't have won if they had been there.

It's hard to figure what's in her mind, but this is an interesting idea. She can win Olympic gold in a certain sense by not competing, being kept away? It's a little inside out but would be an interesting point on which to end her eligible career. I have to think that that moment isn't far away. She must be thinking very carefully about the end game.

Schmeck

01-04-2006, 08:56 PM

I'd have thought that the USFSA would have liked to have witnessed Kwan's skating in person before making this decision. That they are only sending a physician to evaluate her does not seem enough to me.

To those who are saying that she's had two chances already, well, shouldn't she have had three, seeing as she got bumped off the team during "Knee-Whack-Gate"? :lol:

doubletoe

01-04-2006, 11:06 PM

For the sake of next year's team and the sport in general, we need to send the 3 skaters that are most likely to be competitive in Torino. Since Michelle has not really skated in an international competition this season, the fairest way to judge her eligibility would be to either send her to the 4 Continents competition and see how she does (since she'll be healed by then) or to have her skate her program for a panel of judges.

NoVa Sk8r

01-04-2006, 11:13 PM

Here's an interesting commentary (granted Bondy is not the most informed writer):
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10712242/from/RS.1/

LOL on his clincher graf:
"If Kwan isn’t on that team, NBC will have a coronary and Olympic viewers will be without their touchstone. I don’t care so much about the network, but Kwan gets to say when it’s time to quit."

ETA: I would be remiss if I didn't include the incomparable Phil Hersh!
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-060104hersh,1,140463.column?coll=cs-home-headlines&ctrack=1&cset=true
"To those who think Kwan will get the benefit of the doubt because of her reputation, there is one answer: she should, especially given the alternatives from those who may win medals at the nationals.

Kimmie Meissner? Regressed since an impressive third place at last year's nationals. Alissa Czisny? Fell apart at the Grand Prix Final, the first time she felt any expectations. Emily Hughes or Bebe Liang? Never have made the awards podium in a Grand Prix meet. None of those four ever have competed at the senior world level."

Debbie S

01-04-2006, 11:51 PM

What could end up happening is that the other contenders (other than Sasha, that is) will feel so much pressure to either finish 2nd (b/c of the possibility of the 3rd place skater getting bumped off the team in favor of MK) or to skate so well that even if they finish 3rd they'll impress the int'l committee enough to send them over MK, that the event will turn into a splatfest.

Or, we could see some great programs as everyone tries to outdo each other, but given the lack of top-level competitive experience among the 3rd spot contenders, it doesn't look promising.

I wonder if Jenny Kirk is wondering "what if" right now. Or Angela Nikodinov, for that matter.

Edited to add:
She had one fall but otherwise it was a very good program and it was a travesty that she wasn't third or fourth in the Free. But if the judges are giving her such relatively low CoP marks, that doesn't bode well for her Oly placement, if she goes. Which goes back to my original point of who else besides Sasha has a high probability of placing higher at the Olys than MK would.

Schmeck

01-05-2006, 05:21 AM

One could say the same about Cohen - she'll just fall apart midway through the free program, same old, same old.

Bondo, were you this critical of Cohen during her injuries? :roll: Cohen has missed Nationals because of injuries too, remember? Of course, it was a non-Oly year, and she had only one senior year at Nats at that point, but she's been there as well.

I doubt Kwan would finish last at the Olympics. The hate is peeking out again...

Canadian Chick

01-05-2006, 06:33 AM

I think that if Michelle does a test skate and proves that she's above the level of whoever places 3rd, she should go. If however, she doesn't test or doesn't skate to a higher level than the National medalists, then she shouldn't be given a place. The only reason I think she deserves a chance to prove herself is because without her Worlds placement last year, the 3rd spot wouldn't even be in question.

Plus like it or not, Michelle would be the biggest draw for casual skating fans when the Olys rolls around, and the sport could use some more interest.

and btw, in case anyone finds it relevent, this is all coming from someone who is definitely NOT a Michelle fan.

NoVa Sk8r

01-05-2006, 07:53 AM

And more of the same from Ms. Christine Brennan:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2006-01-05-kwan_x.htm

loveskating

01-05-2006, 08:08 AM

If Michelle skates like she has so far this season in her ONE appearance, she would finish dead last at the Olympics...so I'd say the probability is very high that the others would place higher than MK.

If we assume that MK is relatively healthy and can skate through an empty, boring, 5 triple performance like I've grown accoustomed to the past few years, I certainly don't think all of the other main contenders could beat her but I think they could certainly beat her half the time in terms of probabilities, even with their scoring handicap.

But you leave out the fact that no matter how Kwan skates, because she gets high marks from at least the US judges, and often the former "western bloc" judge, she wins -- remember the absolute farce her first place in the SP at SLC was, with a flip jump underrotated by almost a half viz flawless SP skates by Irina and Sasha, both at a considerably higher level of technical difficulty? Then she frigging falls in the LP on a single jump at SLC, and is still 3rd? HELLO! If I did not believe it prior to then, I fully realized then that Kwan has the political backing.

At the same time, I suspect this is all a set up, a way to focus on Kwan and get sympathy for her from the US public, when she has done nothing in the past 2 years to justify that, yet another manipulation from "Team Kwan." I have become very cynical about skating.

Me, I think the USFSA has to and should give her a bye because of her past accomplishments, and because I don't want to see her go out of the amateur ranks like that, not being given a bye after asking for one, being insulted like that -- but at the same time, I just wish Michelle herself would have the character and courage to not ask for a bye, and would get on with her life, .

crayonskater

01-05-2006, 08:48 AM

Nothing in the past two years? She's off her game, but we're not talking about replacing the 2nd place finisher at Worlds with the 16th place finisher. Sasha's likely going to win Nationals, and from there we have younger skaters who have had the opportunity to prove themselves (unless Mao Asada hasn't proved anything) who simply haven't yet.

Not many of the Americans have done much else this season; there's a lot of potential depth, but it's not like this is the Japanese team.

I looked over the scores from the GPF and while I think that Czisny's presentation scores should have been higher than Ando's, I suspect that her nasty fall caused something else to be missing from her program, like most of the footwork sequence at the end.

Kylen15

01-05-2006, 09:25 AM

A few things here:

1) First of all, Brennan makes a good point. We are talking about an ambassador of the sport here, and it's not without precident for USFSA to take a risk. Kerrigan, Todd Eldredge, etc...

2) I believe Kwan when she says she won't go if she's not ready. If she violates that, then it would be a violation of everything she has established with herself, as a person.

3) Wasn't Kwan going to be age-INeligible for Lillehammer, anyhow?

4) Take a look at the advisory committee, folks. It's truly a collection of Kwan's peers, and her predecesors. On that advisory committee are Punsalan and Swallow - involved in their own debate for the Olympic team, Belbin and Agosto, Todd Eldredge (who has RECEIVED a bye, and knows the dangers of allowing one and conceivably whether or not it is deserved), Tonia Kwiatkowski and Elaine Zayak. Those people, if I understand this correctly, will all have a say, and there are other reliable people in here.

Before the cart goes ahead of the horse, why not let the system work itself out and see what actually HAPPENS?

bryan20tx

01-05-2006, 09:25 AM

She's not competitive, has no chance to medal, and it's time for her to graciously move on and give one of our up and coming skaters a chance to get some international exposure.
As if they are any more likely to win an Olympic medal with their scores and lack of Sr. World/Olympic experience? Give me a break. If they need more international experience, send them to a Sr. Worlds first. While I do not think 2 wrongs make a right for the USFSA, their policy has been, for as long as I can think back, that only the first place finisher at Nats goes to the Olympics. The other two spots, while usually given to second and third place finishers at Nats, are are elected by the USFSA. I don't think either Czisny or Meissner have hit their stride yet. Meissner is still working on her PCS, while Czisny has jump issues to deal with. She did have a great GP series season. You wouldn't think she had 3 not so great showings in competitions this season. Unlike teen Olympic champions Hughes and Lipinski, Czisny and Meissner have no previous Sr. Worlds experience, so we have no idea how they would handle the pressure of the Olympics.

MK definitely could have used competition to gain CoP experience this season, but her injury stopped her from being able to do so. Still, when healthy (not even necessarily 100%), she is one of, if not the best, US' chances for an OGM. The scores are there if you go back to 05 Worlds. Even in her darkest hour, Kwan has scored above Meissner, Czisny and any other up and coming skaters in both SP and LP under CoP.

NoVa Sk8r

01-05-2006, 09:32 AM

3) Wasn't Kwan going to be age-INeligible for Lillehammer, anyhow?I believe the rule of being 15 by July 1 of the preceding competitve year was put into effect in 1996.

bryan20tx

01-05-2006, 09:37 AM

At the same time, I suspect this is all a set up, a way to focus on Kwan and get sympathy for her from the US public, when she has done nothing in the past 2 years to justify that, yet another manipulation from "Team Kwan." I have become very cynical about skating.
Can you clarify what you mean by she has done nothing in the past 2 years to justify sympathy from the US public. She has been injured this past season, so I'm not exactly sure why the US public needs to sympathize with her, especially given that it is a USFSA panel that will decide her readiness, not the public.

Tapper

01-05-2006, 10:05 AM

If Michelle skates like she has so far this season in her ONE appearance, she would finish dead last at the Olympics...so I'd say the probability is very high that the others would place higher than MK.

Dead horse. Please, it's really rather pointless to make a remark like this, except to vent your displeasure. We all know that Michelle would not choose to go to the Olympics if she were not in better condition than she was at Marshalls. You of all people ought to recognize that. She has already said that if she does feel that she is 100%, even if the committee decides that she is ready, she will withdraw. It's that simple.

FrankR

01-05-2006, 10:27 AM

crayonskater

01-05-2006, 10:28 AM

Before the cart goes ahead of the horse, why not let the system work itself out and see what actually HAPPENS?

And this is a really good point; it's going to matter who places where at Nationals, too. If Cohen melts down and finishes third, and it's between her and Kwan for the third spot, one would hope it would go to Cohen, and it's hard to see how they could decide otherwise.

Tapper

01-05-2006, 10:34 AM

but at the same time, I just wish Michelle herself would have the character and courage to not ask for a bye, and would get on with her life, .

So you are wishing that MK would just give up in the face of injury, throw in the towel, and consider her competitive career over. You think that takes character and courage? Bah! She's not the wimp you wish her to be.

Michelle is fighting an injury, pursuing her dream, training for competition, following doctors orders, and is still keeping her eye on the possibility of winning, despite the naysayers. I'd say it takes courage to fight to achieve one's goals. And I would say it is a sign of character to face one's limitations; Michelle has stated that if she feels that she is not 100%, even if she is deemed ready by the committee, she will withdraw. Now THAT is a sign of true character. She thinks she can be ready, and she is going to fight to be ready, and if she is not ready she will withdraw.

It takes character to follow your own dreams rather than bow to the critics. When it is time for her to "move on" she will move on, and not for lack of character or courage.

loveskating

01-05-2006, 11:59 AM

Oh well...some of you continue to put words in people's mouths and accuse and deamonize, I see. But this can be discussed rationally.

I feel as if I am being metaphorically blackmailed -- on one hand, I cannot stand the very thought of the great Michelle Kwan being denied a bye that she asked for, I hate the very idea she would leave the sport on those terms, yet on the other hand, I'm not sure she deserves a bye because she simply has not delivered except at US Nationals for several years so I sympathize with posters like Bondo.

OTOH, while I think that Kimmie can deliver (Sasha is a lock), I have concerns about others as well, so I understand that argument.

Thankfully, that decision is not up to me, or any of you.

I do think it would take courage for Michelle to move on and a lot more character than it would take for her to go to Tornno on a bye. The hardest thing for Michelle to do right now is to move on with her life.

I don't believe I am insulting Kwan at ALL, not one bit. I think I am one of the few "fans" who gives a flying hoot about Michelle Kwan, the person, or who even sees her (and all the skaters) as just people -- and I would caution her that hype only goes so far.

P.S. If she gets a bye, I do hope the 3rd place person keeps in training.

Debbie S

01-05-2006, 12:10 PM

But you leave out the fact that no matter how Kwan skates, because she gets high marks from at least the US judges, and often the former "western bloc" judge, she wins -- remember the absolute farce her first place in the SP at SLC was, with a flip jump underrotated by almost a half viz flawless SP skates by Irina and Sasha, both at a considerably higher level of technical difficulty? Then she frigging falls in the LP on a single jump at SLC, and is still 3rd? HELLO! If I did not believe it prior to then, I fully realized then that Kwan has the political backing.

At the same time, I suspect this is all a set up, a way to focus on Kwan and get sympathy for her from the US public, when she has done nothing in the past 2 years to justify that, yet another manipulation from "Team Kwan." I have become very cynical about skating.
Sure, loveskating, Michelle is skipping Nats solely to gain more sympathy, since she clearly lacks the support of skating fans and the general "public". After all, she's definitely not an overwhelming fan favorite or is held in as high regard as any of the other 20 or so Senior Ladies skaters at Nats. Why try to win your 10th U.S title and break a record held for 70 or so years when you can sit home and rely on others to make a decision to send you to the Olys, which you've been working toward for 4 years? :roll:

Not to get this thread OT, but as for your recollections of SLC, don't forget that Sasha "frigging fell" on a triple jump in her LP as well (I assume your opinion is that Sasha should have beaten Michelle). Sasha also did not have the speed, ice coverage, or edge quality at that point to seriously challenge Michelle (unless Michelle made a major mistake with mandatory deductions, like in the SP at 2000 Nats). If you didn't see both of them compete in person at that time, I can understand your thinking, b/c those qualities don't translate well on TV, but having seen them live, I can attest to Michelle's stronger overall skating. IMO, those have been Sasha's greatest areas of improvement over the past 4 years.

Also, remember that in the SP in SLC, Irina had several small bobbles, including traveling quite a bit on her combo spin, which mandates about the same deduction as Michelle's slightly cheated 3flip. The judges split 5-4 (and I believe at least 1 "Eastern bloc" judge had Michelle 1st). In the LP, Irina nearly fell on 1 jump, had poor posture and presentation, and her speed was off as well. Most people at the time said it could have gone either way bet. her and Michelle. And in fact, the U.S. judge was one of the judges who placed Irina ahead.

LTM

01-05-2006, 12:26 PM

I find it's hard to argue with both sides of this. On one hand, Kwan is a great ambassador for the sport and certainly has a good track record in high pressure competition.
On the other hand, she has not got, so far, the high technical content in her
programs that other elite competitiors from a number of other countries as well as the US and she still comes across to this outsider's eye as a little afraid of CoP.
But none that weighs as much as the increasing number of injuries ( most of them sound like overuse and repetitive stress) this skater has bee dealing with for a couple of years now.
In the end her body is going to tell her what she do and right now it seems it's saying "enough already"

It is not the end of the world if one finishes their competitve career w/o a gold medal. Ask Kurt Browning.

loveskating

01-05-2006, 01:05 PM

[QUOTE=Debbie S]Sure, loveskating, Michelle is skipping Nats solely to gain more sympathy... QUOTE]

Michelle? I don't know about Michelle, or her intentions, but I do know that objectively there are over 400 articles if you google Michelle Kwan and "news" today, which means someone with a lot of power somewhere decided this was big and often Front Page news, when objectively, it is just not by any standard.

Even Beverly Smith wrote a column on it.

This is the very definition of hype.

Tapper

01-05-2006, 01:19 PM

I do think it would take courage for Michelle to move on and a lot more character than it would take for her to go to Tornno on a bye. The hardest thing for Michelle to do right now is to move on with her life.

I disagree with you that it would take more character and courage to move on than to go to Torino. I think that it takes character and courage to do what you think is best for yourself. Neither you nor I know what Kwan is stuggling with here, and really no one but Michelle knows what is in her best interest. I think she is continuing to fight, and that when she recognizes the need to move on she will do it. I don't think that I know better than she does what is right for her. I simply accept that it is her decision to either try to go or to give up. I have tremendous respect for her, obviously.

Indeed, I do respect your right to disagree with Michelle's decision, and I also understand that you interpret her situation and decision differently than I do. I don't agree with your assessment because I think that she knows herself much better than you think she knows herself, but I don't deny the possibility that you may be right in your assumptions. As Bondo said, I am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. However, I think that you are failing to see the possibility that her decision to fight to go to Torino is a perfect example of her sportsmanship, her character and her courage. I guess it's just that we both see things through a different lens.

By the way, I don't really think you are a demon. ;)

Debbie S

01-05-2006, 01:56 PM

there are over 400 articles if you google Michelle Kwan and "news" today, which means someone with a lot of power somewhere decided this was big and often Front Page news, when objectively, it is just not by any standard.So now Michelle Kwan controls the media and has the "power" to determine what they publish? She's a 25-year-old top-ranked figure skater rehabbing an injury, not some overlord who seeks world domination through mind control - sheesh. :roll:

I don't know about Michelle, or her intentionsThen why do you frequently post comments like this:The hardest thing for Michelle to do right now is to move on with her life. Are you her psychologist or something? Do have some sort of inner path to her mind? :??

And this: I feel as if I am being metaphorically blackmailed
Huh?

You know, loveskating, I don't recall you ever making similar comments about Sasha when she withdrew from a comp due to injury (which she's done quite a bit, including this year's SA) or fell apart (I mean really fell apart) in a comp that she was in a position to win, or during her coaching merry-go-round these past few years. People would take you more seriously and have more respect for you if you stopped sounding so paranoid and one-sided and if your posts made more sense.

shadymc

01-05-2006, 02:21 PM

I think all the talk of Michelle skating like she did at Marshalls is pretty moot. Obviously, if she isn't skating well, she isn't going to go. All of this is predicated upon her recovery in time and none of us know if this will happen. She has to be examined by a doctor and it is up to the doctor to make a determination. Michelle said something to the effect that she knows they will be monitoring her skating. So, the only question is if she will be ready and reasonably healthy. If she is, then she has every right to be on the team. The rules for byes were in place and have been used before by other skaters. There is nothing unfair here. Only the national champion is guaranteed a spot. If she is healthy, she should be fine. She placed 4th in the world with a subpar program not skated well. Her programs this year are said to be much better and much more COP friendly (if she can do them as planned--she took things out of the SP at Marshalls due to her injury). As I understand it, the hip has mostly healed, but this new injury is just a small groin pull (maybe from favoring the area from the other injury). Michelle has had them before and gotten back into training pretty well afterwards.

By the way, it is not necessarily the third place finisher that will get bumped if there is a bye. The federation could decide not to take the second place finisher and put Michelle, Sasha and the 3rd place finisher on the team. There is a lot of criteria. Take a look at Japanese nationals. Nakano has been the better skater than Ando all year long and beat Ando at nationals, yet Ando was named to the Olympic team.

NoVa Sk8r

01-05-2006, 02:36 PM

Take a look at Japanese nationals. Nakano has been the better skater than Ando all year long and beat Ando at nationals, yet Ando was named to the Olympic team.Good post, but I have to point out (from what I've read/heard on the Grand Prix circuit/ESPN broadcasts) that the Japanese federation has a much different selection process than the USFSA's.

And of course, every decision is political. Some fedeartions reward perennial favorites, others reward workhorses, others reward those who play squarely by the rules (not missing ISU events, etc.), and others look at the past few years and not just this past fall/last year's Worlds.
Isn't there much ballyhoo over which female was named to the Olympic team in Australia?

On paper (at least), what it comes down to is this: A country's federation wants to name the athlete(s) who can finish the highest at the Olympics.

I imagine in Japan's case, Ando benefited from more than one of the reasons listed here.

loveskating

01-05-2006, 03:12 PM

Debbie, I read your post. I did not say any of the things you said I said.
Therefore, I cannot answer you.

So now Michelle Kwan controls the media and has the "power" to determine what they publish? She's a 25-year-old top-ranked figure skater rehabbing an injury, not some overlord who seeks world domination through mind control - sheesh. :roll:

Then why do you frequently post comments like this:Are you her psychologist or something? Do have some sort of inner path to her mind? :??

And this:
Huh?

You know, loveskating, I don't recall you ever making similar comments about Sasha when she withdrew from a comp due to injury (which she's done quite a bit, including this year's SA) or fell apart (I mean really fell apart) in a comp that she was in a position to win, or during her coaching merry-go-round these past few years. People would take you more seriously and have more respect for you if you stopped sounding so paranoid and one-sided and if your posts made more sense.

Debbie S

01-05-2006, 03:19 PM

Debbie, I read your post. I did not say any of the things you said I said.
Therefore, I cannot answer you.Well, the quotes were pulled directly from your posts. Are you saying that someone hijacked your screen name and password and posted those things without your knowledge? :roll:

loveskating

01-05-2006, 03:26 PM

Well, the quotes were pulled directly from your posts. Are you saying that someone hijacked your screen name and password and posted those things without your knowledge? :roll:

No, dear, I'm saying that you do not remotely understand the meaning of what you quoted me saying. :roll: Try again perhaps?

By the way, your statement (quoted to you above) is such a perfect example of putting sensationalistic words into someone's mouth -- then bashing them for what they never said in the first place!!

On another point and post, "Nakano has been the better skater than Ando all year long and beat Ando at nationals, yet Ando was named to the Olympic team." I would totally disagree. Ando is much better than Nakano.

Debbie S

01-05-2006, 03:35 PM

duckies77

01-05-2006, 03:44 PM

Read the article. A groin injury happened.

Precisely! a groin injury happened,no competitions under her belt, no training time, no COP exposure!!
READ BETWEEN THE LINES!!!

loveskating

01-05-2006, 03:50 PM

You're right , loveskating, I don't understand most of what you post around here, and I imagine I'm not the only one who has found your posts here to be nonsensical, paranoid, and bordering on delusional. And if you read my first post to you, you would see that I never really asked you a "question". What I did was request/suggest that you stop posting bizarre statements that make no sense to anyone. Your response was to tell me you "never said" any of the quotes I called out - the fact is you did say them, you just don't like that someone took issue with them. Instead of making more wild and crazy statements, take responsibility for them and explain them, or else don't respond.

My my! You are very very angry with me, are you not? Why? All I said was that you failed to understand what you quoted me saying. Its very simple, really -- you did not understand a word I said. Now you can legitimately claim that is my fault, but need you do that so viciously? I think not.

It could be that you are so full of bias you cannot understand what I am saying, eh? Think it over. Its possible.

Tapper

01-05-2006, 04:14 PM

Precisely! a groin injury happened,no competitions under her belt, no training time, no COP exposure!!
READ BETWEEN THE LINES!!!

DON'T SHOUT AT ME! :x

I hear you. And I disagree with you.

shadymc

01-05-2006, 04:26 PM

but Sasha landed more quality jumps and her fall was on the hardest jump combo attempted at those games.

Small point, but her jump combo was not near as difficult as either of the combos Sarah did. I often wonder what would have happened if Sasha did not attempt the 3/3. I think she would be the OGM at this point. If they put her before Sarah in the short, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't have given her the GM.

Back to MK, I'm not sure what all the arguments are about. When it comes down to it, there is a process already established, along with the criteria to be judged. They will go through the process and Michelle will get the bye if she deserves it according to the rules. The interesting thing to me is that the deadline would be the date of nationals, but since the US fed pushed back the deadline for Tanith to January 30, Michelle will also benefit from this. She could easily be named to the team conditionally, and then have until 1/30 to skate and be evaluated (if they go this route).

doubletoe

01-05-2006, 06:26 PM

Back to MK, I'm not sure what all the arguments are about. When it comes down to it, there is a process already established, along with the criteria to be judged. They will go through the process and Michelle will get the bye if she deserves it according to the rules. The interesting thing to me is that the deadline would be the date of nationals, but since the US fed pushed back the deadline for Tanith to January 30, Michelle will also benefit from this. She could easily be named to the team conditionally, and then have until 1/30 to skate and be evaluated (if they go this route).

The team selection rules do not require that her skating be evaluated as a condition of her selection for the Olympic team, only that her physical condition be evaluated. My guess is that few people would have an objection to her being named to the team if she first demonstrates to judges (or at a competition like 4 Continents) that she will be able to skate a competitive world-class program in time for the Olympics.

Laetitia_Hubert

01-05-2006, 08:11 PM

All I know is that having MK at the Olympics will make it more exciting no matter what condition she's in! Whether she wins a medal or comes dead last trying she's gonna add some vibrance to what I think has been a rather dull year for skating considering it's an Olympic year (just my personal opinion...I'm sure others will disagree).

loveskating

01-05-2006, 09:21 PM

Small point, but her jump combo was not near as difficult as either of the combos Sarah did. I often wonder what would have happened if Sasha did not attempt the 3/3. I think she would be the OGM at this point. If they put her before Sarah in the short, I have no reason to believe they wouldn't have given her the GM.

Back to MK, I'm not sure what all the arguments are about. When it comes down to it, there is a process already established, along with the criteria to be judged. They will go through the process and Michelle will get the bye if she deserves it according to the rules. The interesting thing to me is that the deadline would be the date of nationals, but since the US fed pushed back the deadline for Tanith to January 30, Michelle will also benefit from this. She could easily be named to the team conditionally, and then have until 1/30 to skate and be evaluated (if they go this route).

I believe you are mistaken. Sasha attempted a 3 lutz/3 toe loop in the LP at SLC, which is under the 6.0 system and also the COP considered a more difficult jump combination than the 3 sal/3 loop, which was the most difficult jump combo Sarah did in her LP at SLC.

As for the arguments, here is how I see it breaking down:

There really is not much argument practically -- most posters think that Kwan should get a bye if she asks for one. I do.

Some posters think Kwan should get anything she wants, no questions asked, no discussions, no consideration of consequences, anyone claiming otherwise is a "hater" etc. etc. evile evile.

Some think she does not deserve a bye.

I'm sort of in the middle, because while I do not want her denied a bye if she seeks one, I wish she would not ask for one, because I also think she actually does not deserve one based on her skating now and for the past few years, but only in honor of the past contributions, which are huge, she has made to the sport.

I do not ever want to see Michelle Kwan make a fool of herself or be publicly humiliated by others and I'm sorry, but this entire situation is just full of risk of that (nor do I wish to see her do anything morally wrong).

For instance, has anyone considered what would happen if a skater who was bumped by Kwan's bye protested openly? Has anyone considered how the public would view all this?

Also, having bumped someone else, whether they protest or not, what kind of pressure would then be on Kwan to deliver at Turin, having bumped a worthy skater?

MQSeries

01-05-2006, 09:30 PM

I do not ever want to see Michelle Kwan make a fool of herself or be publicly humiliated by others and I'm sorry, but this entire situation is just full of risk of that (nor do I wish to see her do anything morally wrong).

Isn't there a quote that goes something like "A life live in fear is a life not worth living"? Instead of being paralyzed by fear because of what may or may not happen and then regretting it later, Michelle would rather take the risk and accept its consequence.

For instance, has anyone considered what would happen if a skater who was bumped by Kwan's bye protested openly? Has anyone considered how the public would view all this?

I'm not sure what's the point of the above statement. If a fellow skater protest Kwan's petition then some of the public will support the skater, some will be against her, and some will refuse to take sides. So what? It's business as usual.

NoVa Sk8r

01-05-2006, 09:52 PM

I believe you are mistaken. Sasha attempted a 3 lutz/3 toe loop in the LP at SLC, which is under the 6.0 system and also the COP considered a more difficult jump combination than the 3 sal/3 loop, which was the most difficult jump combo Sarah did in her LP at SLC.But Sarah did 2 triple-triple combos (albeit underrotated, but hey ...).

For instance, has anyone considered what would happen if a skater who was bumped by Kwan's bye protested openly? Has anyone considered how the public would view all this? But someone intimated that The Kween owns the media, so suppression should be easy. :P (And really, I can't see any skater openly protesting a hypothetical Kwan bye. Look at all the negativity that the maybe-2nd/3rd place finishers in ice dance got for a parent protesting Belbin's bid for becoming a U.S. citizen.)

Yet another article on Kwan, this one from the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/04/AR2006010401214.html
My favorite editorializations:
-"Kwan, though one of the most renowned skaters in the sport's history, has competed infrequently over the last three years and was not considered a lock to finish among the top three skaters and win a spot on the team outright."

-"...Youngsters Alissa Czisny, Kimmie Meissner and Emily Hughes all have been on the rise and would have been figured to challenge Kwan."

Kevin Callahan

01-05-2006, 10:04 PM

You know, giving my two cents about the original post, I find I don't really care. I was never a fan of MK to begin with, and her skating now has been... lackluster at best. I don't have fun watching her, so *shrug*.

Tapper

01-05-2006, 10:52 PM

Schmeck

01-06-2006, 05:21 AM

The 3 positions for ladies are not guaranteed by placing in the top 3 at nationals, it's written in the rules that it's not so to claim it as being 'immoral' is pathetic, in my opinion. It's just another slam against Kwan.

What if Cohen gets another injury, maybe during Nationals? She's not exactly immune from injury herself. (Unless she's been faking them, like some claim Kwan does :roll: ) Would it be immoral for her to petition for a bye? I mean, she's never won an Olympic medal, never placed better than second at any major event.

Not everyone gets what they want - there's no guarantee Kwan will get her bye, there's no guarantee Cohen won't step off a curb the wrong way and twist her ankle, and ask for a bye. The only sure thing is that whoever places first at Nationals will be going to the Olympics. The other two places are appointed. Those are the rules.

I don't think Hughes or Meissner are good enough to represent the USA for the Olympics. If they get to go, good for them, I hope they enjoy the experience, but they don't seem World Class, elite skaters to me.

loveskating

01-06-2006, 08:01 AM

See, that WaPo story basically covers some of the points I was making.

One thing I'd like to state. That third lady from Nats, who would be bumped by Kwan...you can bet it is her dream as well to skate at the Olympics and ideally win. By giving Michelle the spot, you'd essentially be sacrificing the dreams of the one who is bumped at the altar of the Kween. Michelle has skated at the Olympics so that part of her dream has been fulfilled. Her dream of winning gold isn't happening. Thus to me this seems practically immoral to take the chance away from someone who arguably earned it. Sure, maybe they'd have another chance in 2010, but it isn't like Mao where she knew the rules going into it and couldn't have expected it now...whoever the girl is, she will have done everything she could to earn the spot. This is what is especially sick about the whole affair. Whomever would be bumped wasn't given a chance to beat Michelle, Michelle has essentially ducked an opportunity to fail. It simply isn't fair to the other skaters. Again, this is vastly different from Nancy Kerrigan's bye.

I tend to agree. Although by the rules, MK can ask and the USFSA can grant a bye or not, that does not cover all the issues that can and likely will arise from all this. Its like divorce -- the rules are simple, but they do not cover nearly all the issues that arise from divorce or all the things people contemplating one need to consider.

I agree its a different situation than with Kerrigan.

Michelle Kwan is a great champion and seminal, turning point skater (raising the general level of artistry and technically, forcing everyone else to do the lutz combo and second lutz -- who actually dominated skating from 1996 to 2001, IMHO)[although I think her fans greatly exagerate her popularity outside of skating fans]. Kerrigan was good, a very lovely, accomplished skater, but she was never any kind of pathbreaker except for making the costumes more classy.

IMHO, this difference means that if Kwan is given a bye, the pressure will really be on her to deliver because getting a bye means, clearly, that someone of "gravitas" bumped someone in a more or less "lower" position. For instance, its one thing for someone like Kerrigan to bump a tiny, young MIchelle Kwan, its quite another for someone like Michelle Kwan, someone with "gravitas", or "stature" to bump either Sasha, Kimmie, Alissa, BeBe or Emily. Also, there was a huge difference of quality in Kerrigan's skating viz. a very young Michelle, while Michelle's basic skating is questionable under the COP.

Is it worth the risk? Some might think its evil not to be glib but I don't see why it is worth the risk since all Kwan seems to gain from this Olympics is some endorsements. She is already a very rich woman, and her reputation and place in skating history will get her a lot more wealth in the future.

The facts are that a lot of bad things could happen. They probably will not, but they could.

shadymc

01-06-2006, 10:34 AM

One thing I'd like to state. That third lady from Nats, who would be bumped by Kwan...you can bet it is her dream as well to skate at the Olympics and ideally win. By giving Michelle the spot, you'd essentially be sacrificing the dreams of the one who is bumped at the altar of the Kween.

Before I respond I want to make the point that Michelle should not, and probably will not, be at Turino if she is not healed and capable. So I'm going to proceed as though that is a given, for the sake of argument.

To respond to Bondo's post. The second and third spots at nationals do not determine the world and olympic team and this is the case even if there is no bye. Let's say no one is injured. The federation could pick the national champion and the 7th and 8th place nationals finishers, if they choose. So no one is really being denied anything they earned. By the argument you raise here, Irina Slutskaya should not be going to the Olympics, either. She is going on a bye, as well. I'm sure the Russian 3rd lady was also disappointed. Not to mention the third place US ice dance team. Their dreams will be crushed at the altar of Belbin and Agosto, by no less than the intervention of the President of the United States. (I'm pleased about this, by the way). The US Federation also pushed back the deadline to submit the teams to the IOC for the sake of B & A. So, how could they go to this extreme for this team and then deny Michelle? It would be completely unfair.

loveskating

01-06-2006, 10:51 AM

[QUOTE=Schmeck]The 3 positions for ladies are not guaranteed by placing in the top 3 at nationals, it's written in the rules that it's not so to claim it as being 'immoral' is pathetic, in my opinion. It's just another slam against Kwan.QUOTE]

What a vicious accusation because while the USFSA rules may allow for 2 people to be chosen for Worlds or the Olympics of the top 3 at US Nationals, those rules are very rarely invoked! In recent history, there are only several examples.

I agree with Bondo, its generally immoral to ask that someone be bumped for your sake! You are taking something from them, is all, its out of the ordinary, thus very questionable. IMHO its also generally immoral not to grant such a request to someone like Kwan if she wants it, but for different moral reasons, thus IMHO we have a very difficult situation here. In the real world, there are often very difficult situations presented to people where there are no easy answers!

Why are you Kwaniacs always bashing people who simply disagree with you? Why does any disagreement -- and this one is intelligent -- with you result in you bashing others as "haters"?

Sheesh! I just read an article that called this whole Kwan thing a big soap opera -- and claimed that is what skating is. IMHO the writer is correct -- these days skating is about ANYTHING except skating itself, and yet skating is one of the most beautiful and accessible sports there is and should have a very wide audience. I think all this soap opera stuff is ruining US skating! Maybe instead, the US should do what the Japanese are doing, put some money behind kids with talent who want to skate, instead of leaving 80% or more out of the talent pool.

Also, I just have to say that this entire Kwaniac/Kwan hater" idiotic paridgm is just absurd, and since it has lasted so long, basically since 1998, it has become very hateful, and I can only hope that it will soon go away.

crayonskater

01-06-2006, 11:26 AM

What a vicious accusation because while the USFSA rules may allow for 2 people to be chosen for Worlds or the Olympics of the top 3 at US Nationals, those rules are very rarely invoked! In recent history, there are only several examples.

I don't think he said anything vicious. People are acting like this rule was put in place for Michelle; to say someone's career is sacrificed at the altar of Kwan is misleading. It hasn't been invoked very often, that's true. (Although, let's count for fun: 1994, 1998, 2002 were all Olympic years, and in one of them we bumped a skater. So a third of the past three Olympiads?)

But how often is it that the second and third place finishers aren't arguably in the top three? Usually one needs Nationals to prove that one should go to the Olympics, so the difference between 3 & 4 usually is key.

That's not the case with an injured #1 or #2 skater. Kerrigan's case is claimed to be vastly different, but looking at it, it's hard to see how. She hadn't medalled at the previous Worlds, either, and while it was obvious that she was injured in the attack, that's really neither here nor there if the question is will she be healthy in time. (Unless you suspect, as some do, that Kwan is lying about the injury to try to get a free placement.)

But absent that, is there a compelling case that can be made that Michelle is the #3 skater on the American team? Seems to be a reasonably easy case. If we have only to judge by this year, then we've got a hard time because lots of people were injured and we've barely seen anyone's program except for Hughes/Meissner/Czisny, none of whom blew anyone out of the water. If we're allowed to bring in previous years (which we sorta have to do, or Sasha ends up lower than Czisny), Michelle's got an advantage from Worlds over everyone but Sasha.

Switching to the Japanese system is an intriguing suggestion; we'd have skaters who are college grades. But I don't think that would help, as the Japanese selection system seems to count Nationals even less than ours.

loveskating

01-06-2006, 12:32 PM

I don't think he said anything vicious. People are acting like this rule was put in place for Michelle; to say someone's career is sacrificed at the altar of Kwan is misleading. It hasn't been invoked very often, that's true. (Although, let's count for fun: 1994, 1998, 2002 were all Olympic years, and in one of them we bumped a skater. So a third of the past three Olympiads?)

I don't recall anyone saying that the rule was put in place for Michelle, nor did anyone claim that the rule should be changed?

Its plainly obvious that when someone asks for a bye, they are taking the place of someone else who earned that place at US Nationals, where it is usually decided, and vice versa!

How you can contest that basic reality is beyond me.

For instance, when Nicole Bobek asked for a bye to worlds, having skated the SP but injured and unable to skate the LP at US Nats in 1996, she was denied a bye, despite the fact she was the ranking US lady, the current worlds bronze medalist. I don't recall who was third, either Tara Lipinski or Tonia Kwiatkowski (Michelle Kwan was first) but Nicole would have bumped one of the two of them if granted her bye. Yet it was Nicole who was the proven skater as between Tara and Tonia

So clearly, in these situations, someone is denied, no way around that. And clearly, the USFSA was not afraid to bank on untested Tara Lipinski, and previously tested and failed to qualify Tonia Kwiatkowski!

shadymc

01-06-2006, 01:23 PM

US Nationals is not the Olympic trials. It is only one factor. The only reason this has not been an issue often is because we have never had this many contenders at one time.

As for Nicole Bobek being denied, popular knowledge is that it was due to personal problems between her and the federation. They were pissed because Nicole had the potential to be an even greater skater than she was, and much more successful, but she apparently liked to party more than train.

And, I'm sorry, but "sacrificed to the alter of Kwan", certainly implies that this is only being done for Michelle's benefit, when it has clearly been proven that it has been done before and is now being done for Irina, not to mention everything that has gone on for B & A, in addition to the way Michelle, herself, was denied when Kerrigan was given her bye.

crayonskater

01-06-2006, 01:57 PM

Its plainly obvious that when someone asks for a bye, they are taking the place of someone else who earned that place at US Nationals, where it is usually decided, and vice versa

And you'd be totally right if the rules said that whomever finishes 1-2-3 at Nationals earns that place to go. It doesn't say that, though. It only says it for place 1. Spots two and three are selected spots that usually go to the second and third place finisher because of the importance of Nationals in the criteria that allow for the selection of those spots.

But the federation can pick someone else - and a bye for Nationals isn't 'stealing' someone's place; it's a legit exception if someone is too injured to compete. It doesn't mean that if someone is too injured to compete that they should automatically take the third place finisher's spot; it does mean that there's the ability to apply, though. That's an option I suspect Sasha would take if she slipped tomorrow and injured herself.

loveskating

01-06-2006, 02:00 PM

And, I'm sorry, but "sacrificed to the alter of Kwan", certainly implies that this is only being done for Michelle's benefit, when it has clearly been proven that it has been done before and is now being done for Irina, not to mention everything that has gone on for B & A, in addition to the way Michelle, herself, was denied when Kerrigan was given her bye.

No it doesn't, although I wouldn't put it that way -- it means that someone is hurt because Kwan wants something, just like Matt Savoie's career was hurt, maybe stopped, because Todd Eldredge wanted something. You simply cannot deny this is true -- you can discuss and weigh the morals of all the issues, and even decide who gets hurt, but in these situations, someone gets hurt is all, and its very, very different from being defeated on the ice.

"The alter of Kwan" probably refers more to the poster's distaste for some of Kwan's fans than for Michelle Kwan herself. However, one does wonder why in the heck she is "competing" when she does not compete.

Schmeck

01-06-2006, 02:29 PM

The Grand Prix Final is not a major event - it's pool is limited to placements from invitationals. It would be like having a 'Grand Prix' of the cheesesfests...

Please find a post of mine that says that I hate Cohen. I think she's a gifted elite skater who has failed to win a major title. Lots of potential, but hasn't quite 'done it' yet. How many years has she been at the senior level? She needs to get beyond the bridesmaid stage. She's been prom queen, but not the bride.

Kwan, on the other hand, has many titles, two Oly medals, etc. Cohen just hasn't reached that point yet, so I don't see her as the best thing in skating since sliced bread.

I do like to point out the subtle and not so subtle slams some posters here have to make in order to try to boost Cohen above Kwan. Until Cohen gets that National title, that World title, that Olympic medal, I can't understand the justification.

Schmeck

01-06-2006, 06:00 PM

Yes, Cohen may be a bit ahead of Kwan at the moment, using the skating at the last cheesefest as a guide... but Cohen has yet to deliver when it counts, and is known for splatting at least once during an otherwise elite performance, then having a less than elite finish.

As I said before, she has the goods, but hasn't delivered them all yet. Some may do the "she wuz robbed" dance, but I haven't yet seen a competition where Kwan or Cohen was "robbed". Of course others may disagree about results, but if they do, then they should try to become judges themselves :roll:

There's a second article about Kwan's situation on the USFSA site. Down at the bottom of it, it mentions how she'll pull herself off the team if she doesn't feel 100%. She's also had a couple of international judges see her skate her programs, and she's made adjustments from their input. Any more complaints? It seems she's been scanning this board :lol:

shadymc

01-06-2006, 06:10 PM

What you've got to realize is my comments about Michelle are only relevant to Michelle, they have got nothing to do with Sasha. You can't tolerate the fact that someone would have a legitimate criticism of Michelle so in your mind you have to discount it as being in favor of another skater. You are in denial.

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are in denial. I do not consider calling someone's actions in this case immoral a legitimate criticism. It is an absurdity. ITA with the posters that wrote, If this was, God forbid, Sasha that was injured and needed the bye, these same posters would not be calling this action immoral in the slightest. It would suddenly become the right and just thing to do. By the way, Sasha had to be out for the season in '01. If she was physically capable of competing, I'm sure she would have requested the bye.

I'm not referring to the posters on this board specifically, but I have seen this so many times. Michelle will do something, such as fire her coach, change choreographers, etc and the Coheniacs will jump up and bark that she is selfish, greedy, etc. And then Sasha will do the same thing, and the same people will make all kinds of rationalizations that it was o.k. for Sasha to do it. This bro-ha-ha is all because it is Michelle. I have not seen one post calling Irina's actions immoral, nor Tanith Belbin. As a matter of fact, all I have seen is cheers for Tanith, even though her actions not only hurt other people, but also involved going to great lengths to completely bend the rules.

.PS. shady, I'd like to note that I spelled altar correctly, please don't use quote marks if you aren't going to quote exactly. I don't see why it is so hard for so many people here to grasp figurative and metaphoric language. Granted, moving from literal to metaphoric language is an intellectual step up.

Due notice given for the spelling police. I shall do so in the event I make another typo. However, please do not make statements that it difficult for people here to grasp what you are saying. I, and other posters on the thread, felt that the tone here implied that this is all being done only for Michelle. Perhaps that is not the way it was meant, for I can't judge that, but it is not incorrect for people to assume it. There is reasonable justification for this.

elanboy

01-06-2006, 06:18 PM

I missed the news...what happened to Irina at the Russian nationals? Don't tell me she is also injured at this time...

Laetitia_Hubert

01-06-2006, 07:16 PM

I agree with you! :)

Thanks Tapper! I really don't find myself caring that much about the politics behind MK going/not going. If she doesn't go I will be a bit sad but glad as long as she's happy with her decision. If she does go then I think more people will enjoy watching the Ladies Figure Skating Event at the Olympics this year just because it will add some much needed drama to the event. As of right now I think everyone pretty much has Irina slotted as the gold medal winner (then again anything can happen but this is just a pre-Olympics generalization). Although it's great seeing Slutskaya come back from her illness and win everything, it's no fun watching an Olympics where the front-runner is so far ahead from the rest of the pack in terms of scores (considering Mao is not competing). If in most of the GP events this year Irina was circa 20 points ahead of the rest (excluding Mao) then either she really has to fall apart at the Olympics (which is unlikely) or the other skaters not only have to be perfect but have to add more difficult and higher point garnering moves into their programs. I know from MK's last performance at Marshall's everyone has lost faith in her abilities at the present time due to her injuries. But I think the fact that she has beaten Irina so many times before is what I'm holding on to. These two great athletes have had a wonderful rivalry and although MK probably won't beat her this year, I think just putting down 2 solid programs would be a wonderful farewell to the amateur skating world. Just my opinion, I'm sure some wouldn't agree with me but I just like posting my views on this awesome forum!

Lark

01-06-2006, 08:55 PM

...it's no fun watching an Olympics where the front-runner is so far ahead from the rest of the pack in terms of scores (considering Mao is not competing). If in most of the GP events this year Irina was circa 20 points ahead of the rest (excluding Mao) then either she really has to fall apart at the Olympics (which is unlikely) or the other skaters not only have to be perfect but have to add more difficult and higher point garnering moves into their programs.

That is a major slippery slope in that paragraph!

I would have considered Michelle to have been "far ahead" of the pack in 1998, and we see how that played out.

And as for Irina being "unlikely" to fall apart at the Olympics, that is not accurate.
As we saw from the 2002 Games, Irina did choke a bit, on the flip, and was overcome by the 3rd place finisher at U.S. Nationals.

Unlike past Games, I would not mind Irina winning in Turino.
She has proven herself, to me at least, to be a true Champion.

However, she is not unbeatable.

There are a lot of 16-18 year olds who know they have nothing to lose by going all out; and a "perfect" Sasha would, or should, defeat a "clean" Irina, IMO.

As for Kwan, she is still a contender for the Gold, again IMO.

She needs to go balls to the wall, and realize if this dream is going to come true, she has to MAKE it come true.
She has it in her.

If Lu Chen can come from, what was it, 25th at 1997 Worlds, to medaling in the 1998 Games, then Michelle can surely jump from 4th place at 2005 Worlds, to winning Gold at Turino.

I would not be surprised to see Kostner win it.

NoVa Sk8r

01-06-2006, 09:08 PM

I missed the news...what happened to Irina at the Russian nationals? Don't tell me she is also injured at this time...She withdrew because of the flu. (And FYI, Sokolova won, followed by Volchkova; no surprises there.)

Tapper

01-06-2006, 11:02 PM

There's a second article about Kwan's situation on the USFSA site. Down at the bottom of it, it mentions how she'll pull herself off the team if she doesn't feel 100%. She's also had a couple of international judges see her skate her programs, and she's made adjustments from their input. Any more complaints? It seems she's been scanning this board :lol:

Schmeck I read this article, and used some of the information in one of my posts. But it was rebuffed/ignored by those opposed to Kwan. I'm seriously beginning to think that appealing to logic and supporting information here, is an exercise in futility. I fear that the anti-Kwans won't read the article, and they wouldn't believe it even if they did read it. Just look at how many times has it been stated in this thread that "The 3 positions for ladies are not guaranteed by placing in the top 3 at nationals, it's written in the rules" (to quote you!), and still they are arguing with you about it, and about the morality of granting a bye!

Tapper

01-06-2006, 11:07 PM

I've already said that if Michelle was clearly good enough at this point that healthy she would earn the spot without a doubt, I'd have no problem with her getting the bye if she was healed. The problem here, and the difference, is that Michelle, healthy, was by no means a lock for the team and thus to give her a bye is unfair to her competitors.

Bondo, everyone knows that Kwan was not 100% at Marshalls. You know and so does everyone else, so I don't understand how you can say this. Or am I misunderstanding you?

Tapper

01-07-2006, 02:19 AM

More proven consistency, sure, but the level of skating possible is lower for her than someone like Alissa or Kimmie at this point if that is to be based on her programs from the past two years. ...

I fully understand what the rules are. I made a pretty clear point I think about rules vs. conventions. The rules are stated so that they have wiggle room when something unusual comes up, the convention is that the top three go. ....My argument is that in this instance, even though it is fully in the rules to give Michelle the bye, I do not feel it is justified. Again, something can be legal or by the rules and still be wrong/immoral.

Well, Kwan hasn't really had a chance to show us what she has been working on because of the injuries. Since she has worked on making the program COP friendly I don't see how you can count her out or say that Alissa or Kimmie are at a higher level without having seen Michelle's program.

Regarding your argument that breaking the convention is immoral... sorry I just have to disagree with that... indeed, I think it's getting just a tad bit rediculous to say it's "immoral." I could understand someone saying they think it's unfair, or that it "rots" or it "stinks" but to me saying it is "immoral" is just way over the top... even for you! ;)

Let's face it. If Michelle had not been injured and then reinjured she would be coming into Nationals as the reigning National Champion. And there is no reason to assume that a healthy Michelle who has 2 new COP competitive programs would not be on the podium. So I think that there is every good reason to give her the bye.

Oi, Bondo, I'd rather discuss politics with you than Michelle Kwan! At least on that we usually agree! ;)

Laetitia_Hubert

01-07-2006, 03:48 PM

That is a major slippery slope in that paragraph!

I would have considered Michelle to have been "far ahead" of the pack in 1998, and we see how that played out.

Thanks for the reply Lark. But IMO in 1998 Tara and Michelle were the two front-runners and they ended up as 1st and 2nd respectively. Neither of them were way ahead of the other in terms of marks going into the Games that year.

But in 2005, I just noticed that Irina is seriously taking command of the scores, which is great. But it does take some suspense away from the Games, that's all. If she wins I'll be thrilled for her as she clearly deserves it. But taking into account that in terms of points she is totally eclipsing the rest of the field and considering the new point system, even if Irina faces some glitches (which she had during the GP events) her base mark is so high that it will give the others a major run for their money. I agree with you that Irina ia beatable and she may face some hurdles during her programs (as was seen in 2002) but with the new scoring system I don't think we'll see another Sarah Hughes moment....but I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

As for Sasha, I guess Irina just has a cleaner track record as of late than she does but once again Cohen could pull a victory even though she hasn't skated much this year.

Back to MK, just seeing her will make the Games more exciting. I'm not saying MK is a goddess and that she is my fav. etc etc etc...all I'm saying is that if for some reason Shazuka Arawaka had an injury and was on the fence about going to the Olympics I would still love to see her competing even if her chances of winning a medal were slim just so I could see her at the biggest competition of the year. The Games aren't about medals to me, rather they're about just watching as many skaters skate and seeing different programs and enjoying them.

loveskating

01-09-2006, 07:53 AM

"I would have considered Michelle to have been "far ahead" of the pack in 1998, and we see how that played out."

If you thought MK was far ahead of Tara, in particular, then you were a victim of the hype -- including the hype on the Internet by Kwaniac fanatics (as many of us were).

loveskating

01-09-2006, 08:02 AM

Let's face it. If Michelle had not been injured and then reinjured she would be coming into Nationals as the reigning National Champion. And there is no reason to assume that a healthy Michelle who has 2 new COP competitive programs would not be on the podium. So I think that there is every good reason to give her the bye.

The reason to assume that Michelle cannot create a "COP freindly" program is in her actual skating -- and those with a knowledge of what it takes to even change a spin, the hours it takes on the ice, the pain to the body, the way working on one thing causes shifts in your jumps, know very well that this is so. Look at her attempt at the fan spiral last season! It was pathetic, wobbly as all gitout, and she probably did not hold it long enough.

Based on her skating, I very seriously doubt she should be granted a bye -- based on her standing in skating, she should not be denied one.

I'm sorry if you are offended by my remarks, I do not mean to offend you ro anyone else, but I am tired of keeping my mouth shut about what I really think in order not to offend Kwan fans! This whole paradigm is getting to be really hateful.

Schmeck

01-09-2006, 10:36 AM

I believe Kwan has been nursing a bad back for years. I think it all started with trying to better her layback position. Face it, some people are not all that flexible in the back, and some people resemble Gumby. :lol: That's how they were born, and no amount of stretching can make it better. It actually can make it worse, in the back area.

Is a fan spiral the one I call the 'hey look at my crotch' spiral? Nasty position, done well or not . Most times you get a great view of the gusset of the skater's tights. Overshare!

Tapper

01-09-2006, 12:08 PM

I'm sorry if you are offended by my remarks, I do not mean to offend you ro anyone else, but I am tired of keeping my mouth shut about what I really think in order not to offend Kwan fans! This whole paradigm is getting to be really hateful.

I am not "offended" by your remarks about Michelle Kwan. I disagree with them. It is your opinion, not mine. What you think of Michelle Kwan does not offend me. I think it's over the top to use the word "immoral" regarding Michell's asking for a bye, but I am certainly not "offended" by it. I'm not Michelle Kwan. If I were then I'd be offended. If you wrote that I was immoral for hoping she gets the bye, THEN I'd be offended. But you didn't... so I'm not. ;)

I will say, since we are being honest here, that I am offended by remarks that imply that anyone who supports Michelle (of which I am one) is a Kwaniac who is merely sucked in by hype and knows next to nothing about anything... as if Kwan fans are a bunch of Phillistines who have no aesthetic sensibilities. I know what appeals to me, and hype does not overrule my taste. I am always offended when I feel that you are lumping me in with the fans you call "kwaniacs" and dismissing the possibility that I might have legitimate reasons for liking her, and believing in her capabilities.

On the other hand, I can imagine that you have been offended by posts which suggest that because you are critical of Michelle that you are a hater and don't have legitimate reasons for your criticisms. I think I apologized to you more than once for a snippy remark, but I feel that you do not trust that I am sincere.

Regarding the comments about courage and moving on... we evidently just view the world differently. I believe that we are constantly "moving on" in our lives, careers, art forms, and that it is an internal process that is continually at work in the individual artist. Others don't get to make the decision for us, so I found your comment that she should "move on" with her life, to be at odds with my own personal philosophy. Can you consider the possibility that she is actually "moving on" and being courageous by working through the injuries and being determined to compete at Turin? Just consider it. The alternative is for her to just give up what she has been training for all season.

In the meantime... here's another apology for however I may have offended you. I will continue to try to keep my dialogue with you non-sensational, though sometimes my Irish gets the best of me. ;)

For inspiration... check out the lyrics to Sondheim's "Move On" from Sunday In The Park With George

loveskating

01-09-2006, 01:10 PM

I will say, since we are being honest here, that I am offended by remarks that imply that anyone who supports Michelle (of which I am one) is a Kwaniac who is merely sucked in by hype and knows next to nothing about anything... as if Kwan fans are a bunch of Phillistines who have no aesthetic sensibilities. ]

Well, IMHO I support Michelle, but I know what you mean -- and my answer is that only a small number of Michelle's fans can really be called "Kwaniacs" but they are a powerful few, I guess, gumming up the debate with personal attacks and disingenuousness about skating itself, tagging every comment they disagree with as being a product of "hate"!!

Regarding the comments about courage and moving on... we evidently just view the world differently. I believe that we are constantly "moving on" in our lives, careers, art forms, and that it is an internal process that is continually at work in the individual artist. Others don't get to make the decision for us, so I found your comment that she should "move on" with her life, to be at odds with my own personal philosophy. Can you consider the possibility that she is actually "moving on" and being courageous by working through the injuries and being determined to compete at Turin? Just consider it. The alternative is for her to just give up what she has been training for all season.

I have considered that. That may well be her intention. Of course, its her right and its all up to her! I never denied that. However, you forget that I have long considered her staying in a totally unnecessary risk, and what has happened is what I said would happen, a slow and visible decline, and now even I am surprised by these injuries from a skater who has rarely been injured -- I just think the risk is not worth it for her, and she could actually lose everything.

Please remember that I've seen Pavarotti in decline. IMHO if he had not stayed too long at the party, the "ridicule machine" could never have gotten at him -- they simply would not have had the news focus to do it.

As it was, every anti-Pavarotti creature of the past 20 years, even Renata Scotto, who originally had a %*% fit years ago (just because he took a bow after La Gioconda at Chicago Lyric), came out of the woodwork to say awful things about him!! I learned a hard lesson from that is all...what he lost from "staying in" was more than he got from it, IMHO. Now Pavarotti is known and loved the world over -- yet the "establishment" did that to him -- what do you suppose they could do to Michelle if they wanted?

As for the morality of it all, there are moral issues on both sides, this is not an easy, slam dunk situation.

Tapper

01-09-2006, 01:55 PM

As for the morality of it all, there are moral issues on both sides, this is not an easy, slam dunk situation.

Well said on all points.

I remember when Bubbles retired at what, age 50 (?) and she was still at the top of her game, but she knew that she was at the point where her voice was going to start to decline. Once she retired she never sang again. That always amazed me. I heard her discussing it at the time... I think it was on the Johnny Carson show!

I guess it's similar to a painter (artist) destroying all but their best work so that their portfolio is pure.

I do understand where you are coming from. I'm hoping that MK is not in as steady a decline as some are saying, and that she has a few good years left. I didn't want Beverly Sills to retire either... and I was saddened when Amanda McKerrow recently hung up her toe shoes... (I'm just a 'hanger-on-er'... ;) ) But, I fully respect/honor the individual's decision to do what they know/believe to be best for themselves.

Aimless

01-09-2006, 04:08 PM

For what it's worth, my opera fanatic boss says that the diva should time her retirement such that her audience says "So soon?" but many times she waits and waits and when she finally quits we say "At last!"

Could the USFSA possibly offer Michele a bye to worlds but not to the Olys?

loveskating

01-10-2006, 08:15 AM

Well said on all points.

I remember when Bubbles retired at what, age 50 (?) and she was still at the top of her game, but she knew that she was at the point where her voice was going to start to decline. Once she retired she never sang again. That always amazed me. I heard her discussing it at the time... I think it was on the Johnny Carson show!

I guess it's similar to a painter (artist) destroying all but their best work so that their portfolio is pure.

I do understand where you are coming from. I'm hoping that MK is not in as steady a decline as some are saying, and that she has a few good years left. I didn't want Beverly Sills to retire either... and I was saddened when Amanda McKerrow recently hung up her toe shoes... (I'm just a 'hanger-on-er'... ;) ) But, I fully respect/honor the individual's decision to do what they know/believe to be best for themselves.

Speaking of Bubbles, she is still going great guns -- a prime example of how one can have a full, productive and fun life after a primary career is over. She retired from singing opera, but she is now announcing for Lincoln Center on PBS, still looking great, and she was running it (didn't she retire from that?)!

I adore that woman! She is the most down to earth yet totally elegant mixture I've ever seen in anyone, and a prime example of how retiring from one life can open up another one that is also great fun and iimportant.

elanboy

01-12-2006, 10:22 PM

... MK has the 4th at Worlds. I'd say in this situation, both Sasha and Alissa should get in with a top 3 finish regardless.

I'm not so clear on the selection process, but I thought that only the winner of nationals was guaranteed an Olympic spot. Everyone else is still to be determined by the selection committee, if I'm not mistaken. Thus, for either Sasha or Alissa to "get in regardless", either one would have to actually win Nationals. Although, I'd say a 2nd place finish at Nats by Sasha should also allow her on the team, based on her 2nd place finish at Worlds last year...

The case for Alissa is a little more suspect...

... Alissa's 1st and 2nd in GP events and qualification for GPF along with her placement here would be greater than MK's 4th.

This point is wholly debatable. Alissa's placements in the individual GP events were against relatively weak fields. I don't believe any of the current world top 4 were in those events. Her qualification and result in the GP Final would be a greater measure of comparison against Kwan's 4th place finish at Worlds last year. At least at GP Final, Alissa faced more of the best in the World, but unfortunately she did not skate very well there at all. It really is a stretch to say that Alissa's 6th place finish at GPF trumps Kwan's 4th place finish at Worlds. So based on showings since Nats 05, I'd say that provided Kwan is healthy in time for the Olympics, she should be given a spot on the team...

elanboy

01-13-2006, 12:26 AM

Now, to keep in line with my earlier arguments, I'm not saying it should be different than the top three, I'm just saying if you are willing to consider Michelle despite her not skating at Nats, then you shouldn't be afraid to put lower finishers ahead if there are arguments in support of it. It becomes a bit of a slippery slope.

I'd say normally, it should be top 3 that get to go. But we have the unusual circumstance of the reigning national champion (and not just from the year before, but the last 7 or 8 years?) unable to compete due to injury. We are talking about Michelle Kwan here. She is not just another lower ranked, up and coming skater with next to no international experience or results. It is true, that she is not the skater she was pre-2001, but she has more than earned herself the chance to be even considered for the team. Even with her lack of maintenance of technical skills and barely eligible CoP programs, she still finished 4th and missed the podium by mere points. Assuming it will be Sasha and Alissa top two at Nats, third place is wide open. Even so, I have no problems with Michelle being named to the team in place of the 3rd place finisher. If one of the criteria for placement on the team is to have the strongest team possible, a healthy Michelle is a sure bet to finish higher than anyone else, besides Sasha and possibly Alissa. Remember, no one has seen any of Michelle's programs this year, so there is the added mystery and drama of how they will compare to other top ladies programs. But again, none of this will matter anyway, if Michelle is not healed and healthy in time ...

sakk

01-13-2006, 08:14 AM

If the skaters show LP's anything close to what they showed for SP's, there will be no question that MK's petition will be approved (as long as she's healthy and ready to go). What a major disappointment from Alissa last night. And Kimmie was meh.... She'll have to show some more fire if she's going to move up in to consideration. I thought the standings were deserved. Emily Hughes had the bobble, but there were no deductions. I actually like her skating better than her sister's. She's a cute gal. And Bebe did a great job. Sasha needs to fire up a bit more, and if she skates clean, she'll have wrapped it up.

BUT.... to stay on topic.... By how they skated last night, MK should have it locked. I see them sending FOR SURE: Sasha & MK. The third spot will probably come down to how the others do tomorrow.

elanboy

01-13-2006, 08:44 AM

Wow...so Alissa didn't skate so well, eh? That's too bad...will have to wait until the weekend to see the programs. It isn't televised in Canada until Sat, but looking forward to seeing how everyone does in the long. Seems Kwan's chances of making the Olympic team are getting better and better...

sakk

01-13-2006, 09:04 AM

elanboy,
Alissa had a disastrous skate:( She fell twice (on her double axel & triple flip). She was gifted with 5th place after the SP.... She certainly didn't earn that spot with her skating. I felt just awful for her. Everything seemed to fall apart.

Kimmie botched her combination, and just seemed a bit *off* last night. She's in 4th after the SP. She was quoted in an article on AOL.... "Yeah, I think that there's probably only two spots," said Kimmie Meissner, in fourth after a lackluster effort. "Maybe only one because you could almost say Sasha will win."...

Sasha has 65.15 points... Emily is at 59.11, Bebe 58.82, Kimmie 55.03, Alissa 54.51 (gift), Christine 51.01 (nice skate for her overall), Katy 48.69, and Stephanie Rosenthal 47.40 for the top 8. Sasha has herself a pretty good cushion right now.

Spider68

01-13-2006, 03:22 PM

Bill Paschke's column in today's LA Times is very critical of any decision made by the Olympic committee to send Kwan. Basically, he says she will be sent to ensure good TV revenue money. He concludes:

"Entering these games, because folks only pay attention to this stuff once every four years, Kwan is the most recongizable US athlete, the face of the commercials, the darling of all sponsors.

Allowing Kwan to skate might cost them integrity, but to stop her could ultimately cost them millions, so you know what that means.

'She belongs because of what she has proven,' admitted Carroll with a small grin, 'but, also, for financial reasons.'

Appallingly, delightfully, only in figure skating."

So very sad for whoever ends up in 2nd or 3rd.

b-al

01-13-2006, 04:21 PM

I think being so critical of a woman that has done so much for the sport of figure skating, for lack of a better word and one that gets my point across, is is lame. I believe there was a comment at the beginning of the forum that said Michelle Kwan was not competitive anymore. Now that's just silly. Fourth in the world, that's sick. Worlds is comparable to the Olympics, and fourth place is stellar by all means. I think it's safe to say Michelle Kwan may have stuck around competitive skating for another shot at the Olympics and although she hasn't competed this seasn, expect for winning the Marshalls challenge she is still a qualified competitor with the worlds best. Perhaps she can be beaten, can't we all at some point or another in our lives? Sasha Cohen was fourth at the 2002 Olympics, no one is saying that's a bad spot for her, because it's not, it's amazing. I also, wholly my opinion, think Michelle Kwan is a polished and grafeully athletic skater who has years of intense pressure situations under her belt. I think that's something to consider when you are looking at Hughes or Messiner, or even Cziney. I also think Michelle Kwans best performance vs. the above mentioned would see Kwan on top. To those who say she's skated her last great performance, how would you possible know that. No one could ever know when that is, or if it ever comes. To be so harsh in your comments towards someone, I'm guessing, you used to route for is just plain mean.
I think it's obvious I believe she wholly deserves the spot, she has proven herself time and time again to be the best, to count her out when she's down and injured is wrong. I agree that the USOC should review her programs, that's only fair, perhaps take the alternates, (or the other choice) base marks from Nationals and have her (Kwan) compete against those marks for the judges and she how she fares. Michelle Kwan is an icon. She is 25 years old.That's a plus, not a minus. (25 is not old, you are not out of shape at that age unless you want to be.) The last time she was fourth besides Worlds, was 1995 in a team competition, thats 11 years ago. One year ago she defended her National title and she said id she was not healthy she would not take someone else's spot, which is commendable and fully appropriate.
I doubt, if she were to go to the Olympics, the world would see a low placement from her. She is tenacious and a "come-back kid" who would fight for everything if given the opportunity to do so. What I think some people are forgetting is she has the skills, the same as everyone else at Nationals. Messiner said she would not do the 3' axel, to risky under the new system. You aren't going to see a lot of 3's/3's either. Everyone will do the same elements, it's just how they are performed.
To give her (Kwan) a bye- would not be handing her something she hasn't earned, it's something she has worked for and is still working for after so many others quit, she has stuck with it. She loves the sport, she embodies a great athlete and good sportwoman. The fact is, she is still a phenomenal skater, don't strip her of that so quickly.
Enough doting. The process should be done fairly. Kwan's skating should be proven to be better then the other conetender, how the USOC proves and validates that is a baffle to me. Be sure of one thing though, for those who think the media will pay less attention if Kwan is not there you are wrong. The media will latch onto any controvery and blow it up, either way the cookie crumbles, that's what the media does, and they do it because that's what people crave.

Tapper

01-13-2006, 05:22 PM

B-al, nice post.

It doesn't look good for Alissa after the short program. I like her a lot and felt bad for her. Bummer.

That said, how interesting it would be if Kwan gets the bye, Hughes gets the silver, Cohen the gold... and our Olympic team is once again Kwan, Hughes, and Cohen! You never know. Some things never change! :lol:

jazzpants

01-13-2006, 09:00 PM

That said, how interesting it would be if Kwan gets the bye, Hughes gets the silver, Cohen the gold... and our Olympic team is once again Kwan, Hughes, and Cohen! You never know. Some things never change! :lol:I was just thinking about that too!!! LOL!!! :lol: Even more ironic if Emily pulls off with the Olympic Gold, Irina the Silver, Kwan the Bronze, and Sasha in 4th again. Talk about deja vu... :lol: :P

duckies77

01-14-2006, 05:50 PM

[QUOTE=Spider68]Bill Paschke's column in today's LA Times is very critical of any decision made by the Olympic committee to send Kwan. Basically, he says she will be sent to ensure good TV revenue money. He concludes:

"Entering these games, because folks only pay attention to this stuff once every four years, Kwan is the most recongizable US athlete, the face of the commercials, the darling of all sponsors.

Allowing Kwan to skate might cost them integrity, but to stop her could ultimately cost them millions, so you know what that means.

'She belongs because of what she has proven,' admitted Carroll with a small grin, 'but, also, for financial reasons.'

Appallingly, delightfully, only in figure skating."
Mmm, she has consistently proven all year she has been unfit to compete & this continues! right up to the deadline! :?:

Kylen15

01-15-2006, 09:47 AM

Oh, for HEAVEN'S sake...Neither Kimmie NOR Emily skated well enough all year either. Putting Kwan on the team and giving her the chance to remove herself was the only sensible to do.

Had Kimmie and Emily nailed their programs last night, it might have been a different decision. But they didn't. At least Kwan will likely keep her butt off the ice!

I'm sorry, but I came in here hoping people would see the sense of kwan being placed on the team. Even with just the level of skating she showed at Worlds last year, Kwan will be better than Kimmie if she's healthy.

And if Kwan isn't healthy, do you HONESTLY expect her to go and embarass herself?

GEESH.

((Edited to add that I thought the Times article was written AFTER the women's long program. But my commentary on the issue stands.))

loveskating

01-15-2006, 11:35 AM

Schmeck

01-15-2006, 01:50 PM

If you've been around the skating community long enough, you'll notice that Carroll makes some pretty pissy remarks. He was downright whiny and pathetic about Fratiane's placement at the Olympics.

nbct

01-15-2006, 04:07 PM

Thanks, Bondo, for saying what so many of us feel and think. :) Kwan should not have gotten the bye. She is not prepared to go and took the spot of someone who is an up and comer, who needs and deserves (and earned) the right to take the international stage. Kwan is in the twilight of her career, with the sun quickly fading. Time to take that silver and bronze and move on.

In an earlier post, someone said, "The officials at USFSA are mostly type A personalities." The poster thought the committe would not put Kwan through. In fact, the USFSA are mostly type C personalities: Crooks. Of course, they put Kwan through. What she accomplished in the past is the PAST. She is not skating in such a way or with the competitive frequency of an Olympic champ.

On another note, Kwan says she will pull herself out if she deems she is not fit. I sooner see pigs flying.

Best of luck to those ladies who got the spots the old fashioned way; they earned them by being fit and competing.:bow

NoVa Sk8r

01-15-2006, 06:18 PM

I think the committee's decision was made much easier by the splatfest we saw (what, 9 deductions in the top 8 ladies?--pathetic).

The rules dictating the Olympic selection process (http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/olympicprocedures.pdf) take into account:
a) 2006 State Farm U.S. Championships
b) 2005 ISU Senior Grand Prix Final
c) 2005 World Figure Skating Championships
d) 2005 Four Continents Figure Skating Championships
e) 2005 ISU Junior Grand Prix Final
f) 2005 World Junior Figure Skating Championships

Emily finished 3rd at Jr worlds compared to MK's 4th at senior worlds.

And the awarding of the bye (http://www.usfigureskating.org/event_story.asp?id=32534) was conditional:
"U.S. Figure Skating will name a five-person monitoring committee that will have sole discretion and make a final determination on Kwan's status no later than Jan. 27. The petition states she will withdraw from the team if the monitoring committee determines she is not ready to compete. The final submission of the entire 2006 U.S. Olympic Team roster must be made by the USOC no later than Jan. 30."

I don't see what the big deal is.

loveskating

01-15-2006, 06:42 PM

If you've been around the skating community long enough, you'll notice that Carroll makes some pretty pissy remarks. He was downright whiny and pathetic about Fratiane's placement at the Olympics.

Well, I believe his "whiny and pathetic" remarks on behalf of Fratiane got rid of school figures, where lousy skaters who were good at patch could win OGMs.

There have been numrous articles giving credence to his statement, so why deamonize him for it! Even the corporations who have signed deals with Kwan claim that she need not win, that the outcomes are irrelevant to them! They only insist that she go!

Bondo is absolutely correct, when you have corporations and/or government or political parties directly involved in OUTCOMES in sport, you poison the sport, and eventually destroy it totally.

Schmeck

01-15-2006, 07:24 PM

Corporations? Government? Political Parties? :roll: :lol: I needed a good laugh tonight, thanks!

Kylen15

01-15-2006, 10:54 PM

Bondo did not say outright that "Michelle Kwan did not deserve the bye." What he/she said was that the bye should not be awarded for monetary considerations such as revenue.

And if you folks believe, right now, after everything we've seen this season, that Emily Hughes can go in and place in the top 10 at the Olympics - much less MEDAL - with her performances we've seen, then fine. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

I'm entitled to mine, and NO, I AM NOT A BLIND MICHELLE KWAN supporter. But hell, saying there's some sort of crooked behavior behind this instead of simple common sense is just paranoid.

dbny

01-15-2006, 11:53 PM

Bondo did not say outright that "Michelle Kwan did not deserve the bye." What he/she said was that the bye should not be awarded for monetary considerations such as revenue.
...... But hell, saying there's some sort of crooked behavior behind this instead of simple common sense is just paranoid.

Not crooked behavior, just capitalism as usual :roll:.

jazzpants

01-16-2006, 12:49 AM

Emily's points for 2005 Junior Worlds: 165.72
Emily's points for 2006 US Nationals: 165.72
Kimmie's points for 2005 Junior Worlds: 146.63
Kimmie's points for 2006 US Nationals: 171.04

MK's points for 2005 Worlds (taking out the score for the qualifying round since Junior Worlds only has a SP and a Free Skate): 175.2

(This is straight out of the USFSA website...)

Okay, you guys who think that Kwan isn't gonna do well this year while Emily and Kimmie's is a much better skater... the scores speak for themselves!!! And no, I'm not a blind MK supporter either. But I did my homework on the skaters' previous performance. Frankly, based on the scores, I think they've sent the best team out there for the Olympics.

Meanwhile, couldn't we please wait 'til they made a final assessment of Kwan's physical fitness and her chances of doing well at the Olympics? I think it's still pre-mature to assume that Kwan's definitely going. :roll:

nbct

01-16-2006, 07:33 AM

Also, if Kwan was at Nationals, she would have been thrown more bone points. I can't recall a Nationals where Kwan got the scores she deserved. They trip over themsleves to throw her 6.0's---that she didn't deserve. If
she declares herself fit for Olympics (she's running the show, not the governing body) I can only hope that the International panel will give her what she earns, good, bad, or indifferent.

Kylen15

01-16-2006, 12:23 PM

Look, all I'm saying is to give the committee a chance to make the right choice. They are making this selection based on who has the better chance to medal at the Olympics, and they will be evaluating Michelle on Jan. 27.

As for overall fitness, you guys obviously have not be through physical therapy for an injury, have you...conditioning is something you CAN work on, and so is general overall fitness.

I guess my point here is this: NONE of us has seen Michelle Kwan skate healthy this year. Not you, not me, not the committee. That will supposedly happen Jan. 27. Instead of bashing the committee for giving Michelle the bye provisionally, why not concede the provisions make sense and that everything could be handled fairly?

Cripes, I would've hated to see the Michelle vs. Kerrigan debate in 1994 on this board. It's virtually the same exact situation!

NoVa Sk8r

01-16-2006, 01:05 PM

Okay, you guys who think that Kwan isn't gonna do well this year while Emily and Kimmie's is a much better skater... the scores speak for themselves!!! And no, I'm not a blind MK supporter either. But I did my homework on the skaters' previous performance. Frankly, based on the scores, I think they've sent the best team out there for the Olympics.

Meanwhile, couldn't we please wait 'til they made a final assessment of Kwan's physical fitness and her chances of doing well at the Olympics? I think it's still pre-mature to assume that Kwan's definitely going. :roll:Well said, jazzpants.

And someone mentioned MK's 2005 Worlds performance.
CoP does not reward the best skater, just the best points producer (which is not always the best skater, IMHO).
Not only this, but MK did not have a CoP-friendly program at 2005 Worlds.
Part of her bye petition was to show USFSA officials not only that she is healthy to skate but that her program is CoP ready.

peshu

01-16-2006, 01:17 PM

Here is a link to the USFSA's announcement that Kwan has been selected for the Olympic team
http://www.usfsa.org/event_story.asp?id=32534

I understand from this and other news reports that the USFSA is taking Kwan up on her offer to perform her short and long programs for a committee, and that they are to not only assess her physical ability to compete, but if her programs are Olympic level. If the committee finds Michelle is not physically able to compete, or that her programs would not be competitive enough, she will withdraw from the team. CNN reported this morning that the committee would consist of a skater, 3 USFSA officials, and a judge.

Michelle had also been evaluated by a physician appointed by the USFSA prior to the selection committee meeting, who said she was physically able to compete.

Michelle just didn't ask people to trust her, she offered to demonstrate her fitness for the team. I suppose one could argue that with all her 'connections' the evaluation will be a sham, but I hope that both Michelle and the USFSA has more integrity than that. If nothing else, I think the last thing Michelle wants is to compete and skate like crap.

Terri C

01-16-2006, 06:44 PM

Cripes, I would've hated to see the Michelle vs. Kerrigan debate in 1994 on this board. It's virtually the same exact situation!

Not exactly.
Kerrigan showed up with all intention to compete at the 1994 Nationals, and had won a international that previous fall
in France (Pirouten/ Trophee Lalique?) when The Whack happened.
In other words, Michelle has been injured all season, when at that time Nancy was not.

NoVa Sk8r

01-16-2006, 06:47 PM

This ESPN article (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter06/figure/columns/story?id=2294269) has some interesting notes:

"A group of U.S. Figure Skating officials, judges, skaters and coaches voted 20-3 that Kwan, indeed, had earned the right to go to Torino. The group accepted her petition for a medical bye, pending her performance at a special monitoring session Jan. 27.

One committee member, who asked not to be identified for this story, said there was no discussion as to how Emily Hughes, the third-place finisher at nationals and the younger sister of gold medalist Sarah, had performed in St. Louis. The entire focus was on Kwan and what parameters she would need to meet to make the team."

Kylen15

01-16-2006, 07:31 PM

Not exactly.
Kerrigan showed up with all intention to compete at the 1994 Nationals, and had won a international that previous fall
in France (Pirouten/ Trophee Lalique?) when The Whack happened.
In other words, Michelle has been injured all season, when at that time Nancy was not.

Yes, but Nancy Kerrigan had performed far worse than Kwan did in the season previously. However, my comment wasn't referencing performance per se. What I am saying is that you have an unknown versus a proven champion being weighed here. It seemed that no one questioned Kerrigan being placed on the team, but everyone is now questioning Michelle?

Michelle Kwan has been at U.S. Senior Nationals since 1993, and has placed in the top six EVERY TIME. From 93, here are her placings: 93 (6th), 94 (2nd), 95 (2nd), 96 (1st), 97 (2nd), 98 (1st), 99 (1st), 00 (1st), 01 (1st), 02 (1st), 03 (1st), 04 (1st), 05 (1st).

Even more impressive are her Worlds performances: 94 (9th), 95 (4th), 96 (1st), 97 (2nd), 98 (1st), 99 (2nd), 00 (1st), 01 (1st), 02 (2nd?), 03 (1st), 04 (3rd), 05 (4th).

If anyone deserved the benefit of the doubt - at least in terms of being offered a provisional spot, which is all it is at the moment - Kwan is it. The best Hughes has to counter with is a 3rd at junior worlds last year, and a 3rd at nationals this year.

Calling this a conspiracy, AGAIN, is just paranoid. Regardless of what you think of Kwan's scores over the past two years, it is VERY readily apparent she has the respect of the international community, her peers, and the selection committee.

And it's the last that has her fate in its hands.

((Edited to correct my grammar))