Sasha's jumps - please enlighten me...

[Anita18]

I read so many reports of how Sasha has such big jumps, but I was watching my skating tapes recently with my skating-clueless sister, and when Sasha went up for a lutz, she gasped, "OMG! That was so tiny!" (IThis is the same person who asked, "Why does he go up so high???" after seeing Yagudin's triple axel, so she knows whose jumps are big and whose are not, LOL...)

Now, I really do respect the opinions of others, and sometimes I take them to be my own as well, LOL (for instance I didn't look at Sasha's jumps very carefully before because I just assumed they were okay from reports). However, after hearing that comment from my sister and seeing Sasha jump some more, I really do think her jumps are tiny. To those who think Sasha's jumps are big - enlighten me, LOL, because I just don't see it...

Anita

[Lars]

I agree with you, they are quite 'tiny' - reminiscent of Tara's jumps IMO anyway.

[serpentine]

Both of you are right, Sasha's jumps are tiny (even for her size) and do not have a lot of flow coming out of them, nor do they cover a lot of distance. These are 'quality' details--if she is completing all the harder jumps *cleanly* and has one or two triple/triple combinations, then it doesn't matter as much to fix these quality details because the technical difficulty will compensate. Yet, IMO, these are the essential shortcomings she will have to overcome to really crack those top spots in the more difficult competitions.
I have to add a disclaimer here: I have only seen her skating on tape, so it is possible that the videos do not do her jumping ability justice. Maybe when seen live, Sasha jumps appear larger? Maybe someone who has seen both can even better enlighten us!

[JDC1]

Actually her jumps are not tiny and 3 salchow is GORGEOUS!!! She points her toes when she's jumping and that gives the illusion of less height. I think her flow out of her jumps has greatly improved. If you have slo mo on your next watching of her slow mo through her jumps, her position in the air, to quote Dick Button, is "esquisite". Her jumps are nowhere near Irina's or Angela's but she certainly is competitive with the rest of the ladies. I think the tiniest jumps probably belong to Jenny Kirk or Bebe Liang.

I have seen her live and that's when her 3 Salchow blew me away, just huge. Her speed and ice coverage should definitely improve and you can always have more flow coming out of jumps but everything else about her jumps is mahvelous, I think that's why when she's clean she usually beats Sarah Hughes. Unfortunately Sasha has not gotten in the habit of having clean 7 triple LP's when she does, she'll start being on the top of the podium.

[Marco]

I think Sasha gets great height and distance on her edge jumps. She doesn't get a lot of absolute height, but her jumps are decently high for her own body size, with a strong sense of spring. I agree that since she points her toes, there would appear to have less space between her toes and the ice in the air. And since she rotates quickly in the air, her jumps are usually more fully rotated anyway, and I think this is the most important.

One problem I noticed with her jumps though, is that more often than not she can't really control her landing positions and her landings are always kinda forward or jerky (esp 3lutz and 2axel). Although she has improved on this somehow, I would love to see her land more smoothly still.

[PauAbd]

Originally posted by Marco
I think Sasha gets great height and distance on her edge jumps. She doesn't get a lot of absolute height, but her jumps are decently high for her own body size, with a strong sense of spring. \

I agree with this analysis. Her edge jumps tend to be larger than her toe jumps. Her double axel is always quite huge, and thus frequently not landed with much control.

[loveskating]

Sasha's jumps are rather large...not as much height and ice coverage as Irina's, much less Volchkova's, but very powerful and her salchow, 2 axel and flip are really big. Relative to body size, neither Kwan, Sarah nor Angela have more powerful jumps, and certainly not Jenny Kirk.

Additionally, she has the best air position of any lady I've seen in a long time...talk about a "proper backspin position" (which, incidentally, is one of the ways judges are supposed to differentiate when skaters land the same jumps). One leg is supposed to be rather straight, the other slightly bent...and as little air between the legs as possible and the body is supposed to be straight in the air at the apex of the jump. That's Sasha Cohen...she is in the same league as Irina as to this aspect, IMHO.

Her rotations (spins in the air) are very fast, right up there very close to Lipinski's IMHO.

Addtionally, Sasha has a lot of natural spring, which is why she could, like Irina, do back to back triples in her Carmen LP -- she did this early last season, then changed the choreography.

Her technique is extremely outstanding on the 2 axel and the flip, in particular and also the salchow...and her loop by the end of last season was great as well.

She sometimes digs the pick in to slow the momentum of a whip her runouts because IMHO she tends to overrotate some of her jumps.

[lisabelle]

i dont notice any problem with the height of sasha's jumps, i wouldn't call them especially high, but sasha has very good spring. her air position is very nice, as is her posture on her entrance and takeoff (with the occasional exception of her double axel, she sometimes lands a little foward and grinds her toe pick on her landing.)

if sasha has any real problems with her jumps, it's that she has little or no flow coming out of them. she very often comes to almost a complete stop and generally will step foward very quickly. i was watching a tape of her recently (from this year although i dont know if it was worlds, olys or an ex but i digress) and she did a 3flip/2toe combo and i was just very surprised she was able to pull it off because she had NO runout on her 3flip. that would be sasha's natural spring that allows her to compensate. but still, i think getting some runout would actually help her consistency, i find that its far easier to land jumps when you're skating out of them on a good edge rather than grinding your toepick into the ice.

[Dustin]

They aren't Irina or Viktoria Volchkova size, but I think they are plenty high - higher than a very big amount of skaters. The spring is great, but the flow on some landings could use some help (although the flip and lutz combos usually have good flow, the salchow and toe loop could use a lot more).

[manleywoman]

Originally posted by Lars
I agree with you, they are quite 'tiny' - reminiscent of Tara's jumps IMO anyway.

I have to completely disagree...I have never seen a double axel as low as Tara's was. Sasha's jumps are much higher.

Though I agree with the posters who said she needs more flow out of all her jumps.

[Spinner]

Either way, Sasha has one of the best danged double Axels I've ever seen! The lift and take-off are textbook perfect!

Spinner

[lisabelle]

sasha's double axel, i think, is only ok. the takeoff and the jump itself are good, but i find her landings to be awkward and scratchy, and even TOO low in the knee sometimes. i think sasha's triple sal from an ina bauer is excellent though, that shows a LOT of control.

[Chico]

I've been told, coach to skater, that your landing is only as good as your takeoff. Rotation should take place off the ice and thus your "ready" to open up and flow on the landing. The knee/hunch thing comes from not finishing rotation off the ice. Balance thing too. Good height comes from the spring at takeoff. Here's my two cents from observation of skating peers...coaches too. Fast rotation will accomplish a jump, but proper technique is needed for landing and consistency. Sasha is very talented and has guts, but proper technique is needed to get those landings and consistency. I also think she needs edge control and moves. There's skating and then SKATING. Dorthy H. and Michelle K. are both examples of SKATERS. I'm not being unkind to Sasha. I see her talent, but she does need to work with her technique and edges/moves.

Just my opinion.

Chico

[rack]

Okay- here's a quick rundown. Three posters say Sasha has big jumps, three say she has small jumps, and three say she has average jumps. Three posters cite her edge jumps as having greater height.

Five posters comment on her flow problems, and one poster says she has good flow. Two posters say she has a great double axel, two say she has a fair double axel, and two specifically mention problems with the double axel landing.

And this is just one aspect of one skater. No wonder it's so hard to judge skating.

[loveskating]

Well, people with an open mind can look at their video recordings and compare what people are saying.

I agree that to the limited extent Sasha has any problems now with her jumps, its on the landings...but IMHO there are two reasons:

(1) I already said I think when she makes a mistake (which is increasingly rare), she tends to overrotate...while MOST skaters tend to underrotate, or lean out of the circle in the air, not check out of the jump, etc.

(2) Its also because she has such natural spring, and can just step up into the jumps, that the landings appear a bit different.

This was also true for Kulik and its true for Irina....they simply do not need the speed that skaters with less natural spring need going into most of their jumps, nor do they need all that speed coming out of some of them.

IMHO one reason Kulik developed very difficult jump entries was (!) because he could, and certainly, not everyone can (2) because he was getting dinged on the speed into and out of differential rule.

Sasha's axel, IMHO is TEXTBOOK perfect, and its HUGE...she does not HURL her body across the ice, she has a textbook perfect entry, she steps UP into the jump, its HUGE (both across and up), and she usually lands it solidly. Its Jenny Kirk who has a tiny axel like Tara's...ACROSS the ice, no step up into the jump...of course, the jump counts, but judges should ding the skater for the height differential. No top American lady has an axel anywhere near as correct or huge as Sasha Cohen's!!!

Sasha's Russian Split shows her natural spring as well...she gets more height on it that either Todd Eldredge or Ilia Kulik, and her air position is considerably better too, and she does it right out of footwork, no backward crossovers needed at all...that shows natural spring.

[tidesong]

Hmmm I think that video recordings are not good for comparision because alot of information is lost when viewing a program in 2D. In any case, I used to think that sasha had small jumps until some ppl here said no and explained why. Now, I cannot just go on what I see in the videos.

BTW, how can the absolute height be measured? Is it directly related to air time? If so, then timing a jump could measure the height the skater reaches.

As for speed in and out of a jump, isn't the extra speed just for show? To sort of decorate the jump? I'm sure most jumps can be accomplished at very slow speeds.

Apart from that, if you don't see the exact tracing left in the ice by the skater how sure can you be that he/she over or underrotated? Is it possible to tell that just by looking at the video or even watching a skater live? How do you ppl tell? Thanks :)

Maybe we could start a page with ppl ranking skaters in term of jump height and speed.

[Anita18]

I was looking at more skating tapes, LOL...I still think Sasha's jumps are relatively small (not Tara Lipinski small but on the smaller side).

I think it's because she is pulled in so tightly - it gives the illusion that her jumps are small. Irina Slutskaya's jumps are look huge because she delays the rotation, then neatly tucks her ankles together for the rest of the jump. Sasha positively squishes her legs together right after she gets off the ice, and her free foot ends up lower than her landing foot. (It can't be a perfect backspin position, LOL, cause she'd be digging her left toepick into the ice if she were spinning on the ice like that ;) ) I think sometimes she has trouble unwrapping her legs, and that's why her landings are so unstable. Overrotation may also be a problem with that, but it's hard to see overrotation sometimes - it's easier to see underrotation IMHO, because the skater's boot/blade makes a very sharp curve on the landing.

I was looking at tapes early in the season, so I don't know if she corrected this eventually, but Sasha had a pretty bad flutz. She picks in beside her skating foot instead of directly behind, which is what I do on my single lutz (which I am still desperately learning, LOL..). That causes you to flutz almost automatically. She also picks to the side on her flip, and doesn't get up so high on that jump either. Sasha's double axel has an excellent example of "stepup" and it's neat and precise, but I think that Sarah Hughes's axel is better. It's more airy.

I don't know if we all have the same definition for "spring," LOL. IMHO, Sasha's Russian split has good spring, but her lutz and flip jumps do not. I think Irina Slutskaya and Viktoria Volchkova have excellent spring - they just get up into the air so easily. I don't get that same feeling with Sasha.

Jump height is hard to measure accurately, but I think we can get a good gauge by looking at tapes. For example, we all agree that as a eligible, Tara's jumps were tiny. Relatively speaking, Alexei Yagudin's triple axel is higher than Timothy Goebel's triple axel. Stuff like that. Air time can mean that either a jump is high or a jump is far, but having either is nice, so that can be a measurement too, LOL.

As a skater, I can say that speed can help or hinder you on a jump, depending on what the jump is, LOL. I'm still very much a beginner (learning singles) but from my experience, waltz jumps, loops and salchows are a lot easier with speed. The edge jumps, incidentally: the edge just snaps up easier when you're going fast. The toe jumps are harder with speed, I think, but that's probably because I'm still figuring out exactly where to pick in, LOL. Personally, I have trouble with the jumps that follow a 3turn (toe loop and flip, salchow less so) since I can't do the 3turn properly, but that's just me.

Speed coming out of a jump proves the technical prowess of a skater - loss of speed can result from toepick scratching (which shows a loss of balance) or an over/underrotation. Also, t does look nice. :)

Yikes, this was a long post, LOL...

Anita

[lisabelle]

toe jumps can be harder from speed because you have to check harder to make sure you pick in the right place. although, many many skaters do not place the pick in the right place and it's not stopping them.

also, i think overrotation does have to do with sasha's problems on her jumps, but that its not an excuse. it just means that she can't control the power of her own jumping and get out when she has to. i overrotate my jumps too, simply because i cant control the rotation. of course, i'm only doing doubles...but still.

[Dustin]

Another thing to think about - a reason her jumps could look smaller is because of her toes pointed down in the air.

I would say Sasha has the best, or near the best height (not runout) of the top 5 ladies in the USA. If anyone wants me to, I can take a screencapture of her takeoff and maximum air position in a jump which could help make more accurate judgement.

About Sasha picking to the side on the flip - different styles for different people. One of my coaches taught me to stretch the leg, make it straight and pick to the side, but a little back (like Sasha) and then another told me (Russian coach) pick to the back with a bent leg (like Irina and VV).

[loveskating]

Overall, I don't think there is much problem with Sasha's jumps, and to the extent there is, EVERY skater has problems with one jump or another...Kulik, the flip; Boitano, the salchow; Kwan, flip and 2 axel...etc. etc. etc.

I agree, Sasha has the best height of the top 5 USA ladies...and also, the fact that her toes are pointed in the air adds a few inches down so it appears her feet are not as far from the ice...her backspin position in the air is also the best and consistently (its truly amazing and beautiful), and her rotations are so fast! Her jumps are extremely powerful.

On speed into and out of, its a differential by which judges mark skaters who have landed the same jumps...its listed as such on the Canadian Fed's web site, for instance: specifically, 1. speed into and out of; 2. height; 3. ice coverage, 4. proper backspin position in the air, 5. takeoff and landing on correct edge and 6. clean runout. Those are apparently the rules by which judges are trained to differentiate between skaters who land the same jumps in a program...

Hey, Dustin, your explanation seems right...that is what my kid has been telling me, that using the toepick a bit longer makes no difference at all, no deduction, just a different method...its not as if Sasha is wonky on the runouts or even that she "whips" like, say, Kulik on his quad at Nagano (and those "errors" are very, very small problems in any case).

In sum, the only real problem with Sasha's jumps are that so far she does not have a consistent 3/3 and she very slightly flutzes sometimes, but other times she takes off from the flat on her lutz.

[Skatingsarah]

Sasha's jumps are amazing!! They may not be Irina's height! But she is definetly one of the most technically right in her jumps! She has beautiful jumps! Her toes are pointed going up and then on the way down, at the top she's soo streched! Some of the girls get height but not an arc in the jump. Height isn't everything! In Sasha jumps YOU CAN SEE THE ARC you can almost follow it with you finger. She covers distance and height. Shes straight she extending every part of her leg to her toe. She is on of the most elegant skaters in the air. Shes amazing, be a cridict but she is awesome! I love her she flys effortless across the ice. I don't see how you people can't see that!
:o SARH

[Lilia]

Sasha has great flexibility, and oftentimes, people with extreme flexibility and long leg muscles do not spring very high because of their muscle structure. This is the case with Sasha. Only rarely do people have both extreme flexibility and great spring (ex. many rhythmic gymnasts)

[lrng to skt]

Yess Lilia - those muscles still need to have that fast twitch fiber - and she seems to have it. I can't think of another skater whose has had that level of ability in BOTH. Perhaps Denise Bielman comes close, but of course she's a totally different type, actually maybe not so different when you take her entire career into consideration...Rory Burghart Flack also comes to mind...g

[loveskating]

It would seem that Sasha has both extreme flexibility and unusual natural spring...her body shape is also perfect for jumping...broad shoulders and narrow hips.

There is just so much evidence...the extreme height of her Russian split, and out of footwork, her ability to do back to back jumps (see GWG and early 2002 LPs).

When you do back to back triples like that, you have virtually no speed other than that of the runout...ergo, you MUST have natural spring to pull that off.


Bielman, for sure, and also Irina has both extreme flexibility and natural spring as well...

[Ellyn]

Also Nicole Bobek.

[lrng to skt]

Volchkova - how could we forget her - that Gorgeous Lutz ...g

[Ellyn]

Originally posted by lrng to skt
Volchkova - how could we forget her - that Gorgeous Lutz ...g

But she's not particularly flexible.

[danibellerika]

Originally posted by loveskating
There is just so much evidence...the extreme height of her Russian split, and out of footwork, her ability to do back to back jumps (see GWG and early 2002 LPs).

When you do back to back triples like that, you have virtually no speed other than that of the runout...ergo, you MUST have natural spring to pull that off.


That is very true. Also, people shouldn't forget the fact the she used to be a gymnast. They have to have good spring as well to flip like that.

[lrng to skt]

Ellyn - absolutely true as is evident in the layback/spiral. I got caught up with the lean body type that usually doesn't go with "spring"...g

[Lilia]

Sorry, what I meant by 'extreme' flexibility

a clarification: link (http://fly.to/yana)
this is getting off topic, but look at the picture gallery.

As a figure skater, Sasha is very flexible, but compared to rhythmic gymnastics, it is nothing.

[GreekGoddess85]

I think Sasha has average jumps. Her pointed toes make her jumps look tiny but they aren't. Liang's jumps are so tiny.
I think if Volchova develops consistency she will be a true force.

[Rachel]

Originally posted by Lilia
Sorry, what I meant by 'extreme' flexibility

a clarification: link (http://fly.to/yana)
this is getting off topic, but look at the picture gallery.

As a figure skater, Sasha is very flexible, but compared to rhythmic gymnastics, it is nothing.

YIKES! I feel like I need to be put in traction just from looking at those pictures.

[loveskating]

Well, I'd say that Volchkova and Irina would exceed Sasha on the differentiating factors of height and ice coverage, and certainly Volchkova has a true lutz, and its huge...but otherwise, except for the lutz, Sasha's technique is really good, and her jumps are bigger than any other U.S. lady's...leaving out A.P. as I really haven't checked her out that much.

Sasha's air position is among the best, IMHO, a true "proper backspin position" in the air...her jumps have the quality that one finds in skaters like Kulik...and those things count...proper backspin position in the air is one of the differentiating factors the judges are supposed to look at when skaters land the same jumps.

[duane]

Originally posted by Lilia
As a figure skater, Sasha is very flexible, but compared to rhythmic gymnastics, it is nothing.

i dont think anyone is flexible when compared to rhythmic gymnasts! they are human pretzels! :)

[hoptoad]

Originally posted by loveskating
Well, I'd say that Volchkova and Irina would exceed Sasha on the differentiating factors of height and ice coverage, and certainly Volchkova has a true lutz, and its huge...but otherwise, except for the lutz, Sasha's technique is really good, and her jumps are bigger than any other U.S. lady's...leaving out A.P. as I really haven't checked her out that much.

Sasha's air position is among the best, IMHO, a true "proper backspin position" in the air...her jumps have the quality that one finds in skaters like Kulik...and those things count...proper backspin position in the air is one of the differentiating factors the judges are supposed to look at when skaters land the same jumps.


(oops, I didn't mean to quote the whole post) Sasha's jumps are bigger than any other US lady?! Does anyone else agree? Perhaps on some jumps, but not others? In fact, let's take a quick poll: of US women competing in the last few seasons, who has the biggest: lutz, flip, loop, toe-loop, salcow, axle?

[JDC1]

That's a good question. I'll have to rewatch my tapes and get back to you. I seem to recall Angela N getting good height on some jumps. For the 2 axel I'd go with Sarah H., it's normally big and beautiful. For the salchow I am torn between Michelle and Sasha, they both have big salchows. I have to watch Anne Patrice again to see where she factors in as far as height and distance. MIchelle's 2nd lutz not in combination is often huge but I still need to re-watch Angela's lutz.

[Excidra]

I would say Sasha has one of the best Salchow's in the ladies field. Her double axel is not bad as well, she gets a lot of height with that jump. I'm not a fan of her lutz and loop though.
Her the ice-coverage, it will get here in time.

[Dustin]

Sasha's flip is huge. Her lutz isnt the biggest but is bigger than many of the other ladies, as is her toe loop. The loop definately could be higher though.

[JDC1]

I don't have this years Nats on tape!! But I did look at my 2001 Nats last night and had a couple of surprises. First of all, I haven't really paid alot of attention to AP McDonough and was really surprised to see she had the best double axel, she and Sarah might be close in height but AP's was GORGEOUS. Also surprised that most of them had relatively "low" lutzs, Sarah's look the biggest but since I don't really count her lutz as a lutz :-) I'd have to say Michelle's was biggest but not by much. I thought Michelle's flip was gorgeous as was Angela's. I think of the competitors I saw the best jumper (when landed) was AP McD which suprised me because I never gave her much attention, then 2nd I'd go with Michelle because she had consistent height and good technique, then I'd go with Sarah then Angela as a virtual tie. I am going to try and get a copy of this years Nats because I think it was really well skated, I really thought I had a copy!! I do think that Sasha has the biggest salchow and possibly lutz but I think AP's double axel is bigger. Anyway, it was interesting, now I am even more interested in seeing AP Mc this season, since she's graduated school and now spends more time on skating than she used to!! I would love it if this was her break out year.

[loveskating]

Well, to me it seems that Sarah gets a lot of coverage ACROSS the ice on her flip and her axel, but not that much height...she has a lot of speed going in and a lot of her own kind of control, but not a lot of natural spring, IMHO.

It counts, coverage across, I'm not saying it doesn't, but to me, the lack of height means she is not in a league with Irina or Volchkova, or even Fumie, IMHO. Also, her position in the air leaves a lot to be desired as to the "proper backspin position" rule (and there, Irina is really steller too, as is Sasha).

[rjblue]

Annie Bellemare has beautiful spring in her lutz. It is one of those WOW jumps.

Sasha has never wowed me with her jumps, with her it is more of an overall effect, similar to Oksana. (I'm just talking about my reaction :) )

[nits]

Sasha's jumps have never "wowed" me, either. I saw her in COI, and I was amazed she landed several jumps because her landings were very scary. She has awkward landings , and I also noticed this at Worlds '02. Maybe she'll improve with her new coach.

[loveskating]

My first reaction to Sasha was all about her innovations...which I thought were very difficult and beautiful and also her overall presentation.

But once I took a closer look at Sasha, first I noticed her 2 axel...her speed into it, how she stepped up into it and how big it was...then her salchow, and when I saw her take a 3 sal right out of a beautiful Ina Bauer held over half the length of the rink at Keri in early 2001, I sat up and took notice. Then at GWG, when she did those back to back jumps in her LP, I realized she had the natural spring to do that and do it well, just like Irina (although Sasha's jumps are not as big as Irina's, most of them are as good as to proper technique).

BTW, as for Oksana, when she won Worlds, the first thing I noticed about her were her jumps...how huge they were and how correct her lutz was, and that delayed 2 axle of hers blew me away. Later,I thought more about her presentation, but even there, for instance, her catch spiral remains the most beautiful and difficult I have ever seen...what a lean she had into that, and how beaitufully she went into it and out of it. I've never seen a catch spiral done better by anyone.