Why do people dislike Michelle Kwan

[Jeanmarie]

I consider myself to be a Michelle Kwan fan. Lately I've noticed that those "In the know" of skating don't seem to like her very much, or atleast have some less than kind things to say. Please help explain this to an arm-chair figure skater.

[batikat]

I saw Michelle at Worlds 2004. I skate myself and watch skating whenever I can but that's usually only the big internationals in the UK so hadn't really watched Michelle that much to either like or dislike her.

With all the hype and devotion Michelle engenders I was prepared to be enthralled by her skating. However, instead I was totally disappointed. It seemed a terribly lacklustre performance, lots of plain stroking between elements instead of the interesting moves other skaters had, and no connection with the audience (except for the devoted Michelle fans who were jumping up and down with tears down their faces at the sight of their idol - I could not for the life of me see what they were getting so excited about!). Also I hated to see her in the warm up, lazily toepushing around the ice - it looked so ugly.

Anyway I guess I dont' think she is living up to the hype any more and while I know people who saw her skate years ago when she was a phenomenon at 14 and were thrilled by her, I think skatings moved on and she doesn't appear to have moved with it.
Newer,more exciting skaters have appeared with fresh ideas and while I certainly wouldnt say I dislike Michelle, she certainly doesn't excite me with her skating the way some others do. I admire her past achievements but I can't see her winning another title.

[dewey]

I can't remember the first time I saw Michelle Kwan skate, but I'll never forget her performances at Nationals in Philadelphia in 1998. It was hypnotizing - I think there was a spell cast on those of us lucky enough to see it live. I became a fan and have remained a fan ever since. Michelle's skating is so pure and clean. It never disappoints me. I am a fan of Irina Slutskaya and Sasha Cohen and Alissa Czyzny; but if and when Michelle competes, I'm "all in" for MK.

[Aimless]

I pretty much agree with what everybody says above. Michelle may not be what she once was and that does disappoint me, but she will always be the standard by which others are judged. Okay, Sasha Cohen and some of the Japanese women and others have more technical goods. Sasha may be a more beautiful skater in a purely esthetic sense, but emotionally, she doesn't reach me. Nobody has ever taken me along on the ice, included me in her experience, the way Michelle has at her best. I hope to see her perform like that a few more times, but even if I don't I'll always be grateful to her.

I've always loved her adventurous choices in music and most of her costumes too. She has taste. She knows herself. She inspires me.

[Spider68]

It's time for her to move on. By continuing to keep her "eligible" status and leaving competition organizers dangling (will she compete, won't she, etc.) she's doing a disservice to the up and coming skaters that need exposure and should be skating COMPETITIVELY for the US. She's established herself in skating history...MOVE ON, MICHELLE! Go to school like you said you wanted! Finish UCLA! BTW: I hope they kick those whiny SC players!

[flippet]

It's time for her to move on. By continuing to keep her "eligible" status and leaving competition organizers dangling (will she compete, won't she, etc.) she's doing a disservice to the up and coming skaters that need exposure and should be skating COMPETITIVELY for the US. She's established herself in skating history...MOVE ON, MICHELLE! Go to school like you said you wanted! Finish UCLA!

Well, not to blindly defend Michelle, because I'm on the 'been there, seen that' side, but why should it be up to Michelle to leave? It shouldn't be. If competition organizers are more interested in the money that MK's name brings, versus having some actual 'competition', then they deserve a bit of dangling. I think it's up to the judges to judge accurately and fairly, and not on 'name' basis--and if they do so, then THAT will determine whether MK 'stays' or 'goes'. If, for instance, she were consistently placing out of the top three, or even out of the top flight, period, the media and organizers would eventually put less emphasis on making a broadcast or event 'all about Michelle', and she'd fade away into a 'where are they now' segment like most skaters who are past their prime.

I don't know enough about the new judging system, or Michelle's performances under it, to say whether 'holding up' is still going on, or even possible. I think it did happen to a small degree in the past, from time to time, though not every time.

I will also say that although I've always been on the fence over Michelle, like her, but not a rabid fan, when I saw her on tour a few years back, she did have a 'presence' on the ice that stretched into the nosebleed seats, and no one else matched it, not even Sasha. That presence isn't always apparent through a TV screen--I know it surprised me in person. That may be a large part of why she gets scores that seem inflated at times.

[Sing_Alto]

A lot of people like to go against the grain and they'll dislike anything or anyone who's popular. I have a sister who does this. If the public goes ga-ga over something, she is sure to not be impressed. In fact, she went to the 1995 Tour of Champions with me, and I had been telling her how great this little 14 year old Michelle Kwan was. After the show she had to mention how she didn't care for Michelle's number. She also had to inform me that Brian Boitano (my fave) has a receding hairline-- as if I hadn't noticed. :roll:

[2loop2loop]

The Yankees are loathed by people who have no rational reason to loathe them.

I can't say I follow these threads in any great detail, but this sentence surprised me. It has always seemed to me that all the Kwan-bashing came from Sasha fans from the US (and vice-versa).

From my POV, I can remember Kwan giving some performances back in around 1996-98 that were genuinely ground breaking, exciting and even moving. Since then her skating has declined both artistically and technically and given her previous form I am nearly always disappointed by her skating. Having said that she will always have been responsible for some of my favourite programmes and for that I am still a fan.

Whether she should move on should be a matter for her. If she can still qualify for the Olympic and World teams and she still wants to do it then I wouldn't knock her for it. In some ways I prefer that to the "smash and grab" skaters who turn up for one season, win everything, then turn pro.

John

John

[Jeanmarie]

I think I like the Yankee reasoning

[stardust skies]

It's time for her to move on. By continuing to keep her "eligible" status and leaving competition organizers dangling (will she compete, won't she, etc.) she's doing a disservice to the up and coming skaters that need exposure and should be skating COMPETITIVELY for the US. She's established herself in skating history...MOVE ON, MICHELLE! Go to school like you said you wanted! Finish UCLA! BTW: I hope they kick those whiny SC players!

People change their minds. She tried school and took a big long break- clearly she wasn't too crazy about it. She may not be the best anymore, but...she's not taking up anyone's spot. She put in enough years and money to have earned enjoying the fruits she's sown for as long as she wants. IF she weren't good enough anymore, then she'd place at the bottom of the competition and wouldn't be taking anyone's spot. Case in point: Worlds. She didn't measure up, she didn't podium. Simple as that.

If she's good enough to take someone's spot though, then she belongs there and it's not their spot...it's hers. I really don't see what the problem is if she wants to keep on competing. I love how it actually BOTHERS people that this girl is living her life. It *bothers* people that she doesn't leave to accomodate others. Tell me...how often do you decide to walk home to leave your spot in traffic to someone else? Do you sit and say "hmmm I don't want to make anyone wait longer than they have to before getting home, so instead of driving home I'll walk 50 miles so I don't take up anyone's spot on the road.." Yeah, right. It's nice to think of others, but not if it means screwing yourself and ruining your life and making yourself unhappy in the process.

Michelle wants to skate, she wants to compete, and I don't see how anyone think they are so important in the world that they should feel pissed off that she isn't quitting so she could leave them her spot. If they're better than her, they'll earn it. Truth is, U.S. ladies Senior skating is crap right now. Michelle really doesn't have that much work to do to stay at the top, so can you blame her for sticking around? I'd do it too.

I think that the people who rant about how she should leave the sport already don't realize how many sacrifices and how much money and how many injuries and how much WORK getting to that level takes. You can't blame anyone for trying and enjoying it as long as humanly possible, cause once you walk away...it's all gone, and you can't get it back. People are so selfish. Let her enjoy her life, already.

All this, and I'm not even a Kwan fan at all. I'm just against people who feel entitled to tell other people how to live their lives, especially if they don't even know them. :frus:

[7302005]

2loop^2, I'm not exactly sure I'd agree with your claim about Kwan-bashing Sasha fans. I think you might find, based on the way fan wars have taken place specifically with Michelle fans and any number of skater's fans (though there are other unrelated fanwars, you don't find Sasha fan wars with any other skater), that the problem lies more with overly defensive Kwan fans than overly Kwan-bashing fans of another skater.

It seems that any thread which has Michelle in the title, the other skater's fans turn it into a bashing thread.

I have always contended that if Sasha would just do some finishing things, she would be unbeatable. The person that "beats" Sasha is herself.

related to the "it's time for her to retire, because she has been in the field too long", should anyone who has been on top for years quit? Shaq, Brett F, Trent Green, Joe Paterno, Bobby Bowden, any sports figure?

Or how about me - I have been in the employment arena for 35 years? I guess I have outlived my usefulness too?

[Jeanmarie]

It seems that any thread which has Michelle in the title, the other skater's fans turn it into a bashing thread.

Does anyone think this has been the case with other skaters? Like... did Nancy Kerrigan fans HATE Oksana Biaul or something of the sort?
AND....

Are there any other skaters that are getting the "just let it go" vibe?


On a side note ... it is funny to picture Michelle's fans staging a West Side Story-esque "rumble" against Sasha's fans. Hey! Did I just come up with the next Icecapades? :)

[Tapper]

I consider myself to be a Michelle Kwan fan. Lately I've noticed that those "In the know" of skating don't seem to like her very much, or atleast have some less than kind things to say. Please help explain this to an arm-chair figure skater.

When someone tells me they don't like Michelle Kwan I find it as incomprehensible as hearing the football coach tell me he couldn't sit through an entire play in the theatre. I get that he couldn't do it... but that doesn't mean that I can understand it... well, except that I could never sit through and entire football game myself, but could easily sit through a different play every night of the week (under certain circumstances I could sit through the SAME play everynight of the week). I think that maybe it just comes down to personal taste. ;)

It may not be correct to assume that everyone who expresses a dislike for Kwan is more "in the know" of skating than those who express a liking for her.

[Tapper]

And the thread asks "why do some people dislike Michelle"... the only possible response is to either answer the question and give all the reasons why they don't like Michelle, which in turn would give you a bunch of negative comments about her, or someone saying they haven't got a clue (like me) as to why anyone would dislike her. So... bashing or cynicism.. whatever you want to call it, this thread is begging for it. It didn't turn into anything... it's an open invitation for people to give all the reasons why they don't like Michelle. In any case, it's the most activity I've seen on this board in months.

[TreSk8sAZ]

The reasons that I don't like Kwan are really quite simple. While I admit she had good programs when she was younger, recently they just aren't that attention grabbing.

1. Technically, her programs are extremely boring. While the jumps are there, her spins could be much better and there are very few transitions, other than stroking and crossovers. I have a coach who values the wholeness of programs, meaning artistry, transitions and the elements themselves so I guess I'm biased in that sense.

2. Artistically, and many will disagree with me, Kwan has the poise, posture and maturity, but past that very little expression. I've seen her do programs where her expressions and arm movements do not go with the music, or the sentiment behind the music.

3. I feel that Kwan has been helped along by her name and should not have received as many 6.0s as she has. A 6.0 means perfect, and her artistry and technical skills have rarely been absolutely perfect (very good, yes. 100% perfect, no) yet she still manages to gain more 6.0s than any other U.S. skater by far. While she hasn't had that much competition in the U.S., on the world scene she HAS placed higher than she should have over skaters that she might not have won over if she wasn't Michelle Kwan.

4. This is just a personal feeling, but an elite should just not take out footwork in a program because it's too hard. That's when you train harder on that piece of the program, or change small things to make it easier. Not just delete it entirely.

Note: I claim no favorite U.S. skater, I think many are good. I could easily go down a list for every skater as no skater has ever been or will ever be perfect. This is just what I've noticed about Kwan, since the question was asked.

[Kathy]

[QUOTE=TreSk8sAZ]
A 6.0 means perfect, /QUOTE]

Uh no not really - under the old system numbers are just place holders.

[Sing_Alto]

Does anyone think this has been the case with other skaters? Like... did Nancy Kerrigan fans HATE Oksana Biaul or something of the sort?

Certainly. I believe that in Canada the mere mention of Brian Boitano is punishable by law. Offenders are deported. ;)

[Tigger]

LOL Sing Alto!!

That's not entirely true. While Brian Orser and Kurt Browning have been and always been my favourites, I was blown away by your Brian when I finally saw him live at Kurt's Gotta Skate a couple of years ago. Always suspected the reason Brian B did nothing for me was that he just did not translate well over the TV for me and that was proven in spades.

As for the subject of the thread...

I've been a Michelle fan since the beginnng, but she really is starting to show that she's stayed around a little too long. There's nothing sadder than watching an athlete stay for the wrong reasons. Do I believe she loves skating? Of course I do, but her programs have just been going downhill the last few years. Not only that, but for her to come across as so confused over what happened at Worlds in March. Michelle made a mistake not doing the GP series last year to get used to CoP. I don't remember her ever owning up to that though. At least not in the coverage I saw or read in March.

BTW, whoever did her exhibition number to You Raise Me Up should be fired. I haven't been that disappointed in a number in a very long time. All the big jumps and highlights were in the slow section and any MITF in the place where the big highlights should have been. It was like the choreographer never bothered to listen to the music and what a shame too. Could have been an amazing number if it had been done right. The right skater certainly was there for it, but...Sigh... :(

[tdnuva]

Hard to talk about "people" in general. My opinion: Mostly I don't dislike her, I am just no special fan. In many aspects I think she is a skater like many others, I fail to see something special. Jumps are not very high, spins mediocre, footwork - well, often not there. She is not alone in that, don't get me wrong, there are many like her. The thing I dislike is the disproportion between what I see on the ice and the hype many fans of her foster all the time. For many it seems she is a goddess flying on the ice, and I see no real reason for this image.

Hard to say for me if the reason is that she is around for too long. I'd rather say she is not fighting hard enough. Like someone else said - if you are one of the top skaters (finishing on or just off the podium at worlds qualifies for that) then I would expect to work on the footwork instead of blaming the choreographer and take the content out of the program. Btw - something I saw in a fluff about Plushenko as well. This is not the attitude I like in skaters or skating. I don't mean either doing things over-the-top is better (like trying quads as a female or a quad twist as pair if you can't do those moves solidly), but footwork is kind of the alphabet of a skater and athletes who neglect that are not deserving that much gushing. So you will often see roll-eyes of me when Kwan is mentioned. Not cause she is so bad, only that she is not as good on the ice as the fans suggest. Imho.

(and for the record - I am neither a Cohen or Slutskaia fan, I like good basic skating and fine choreographies, from whoever gives me that)

[Jeanmarie]

And the thread asks "why do some people dislike Michelle"... the only possible response is to either answer the question and give all the reasons why they don't like Michelle, which in turn would give you a bunch of negative comments about her, or someone saying they haven't got a clue (like me) as to why anyone would dislike her. So... bashing or cynicism.. whatever you want to call it, this thread is begging for it. It didn't turn into anything... it's an open invitation for people to give all the reasons why they don't like Michelle.

Such was not my intent (or the title of the thread would have been "I hate Michelle Kwan because....")
As a non-skater I can't see if she is floundering technically. Obviously she tanked last year, but I would put 2004 Nats up there with '96 or '98.
I also don't know anything of skating politics. I was curious if and how much her name was holding her up.
It honestly didn't even occur to me that this might become a bashing thread, but if someone doesn't like her because they think her hair is parted on the wrong side, then VIVA DEBATE!!!

[Tapper]

Such was not my intent (or the title of the thread would have been "I hate Michelle Kwan because....")
I was curious if and how much her name was holding her up.
It honestly didn't even occur to me that this might become a bashing thread...!

I understand, and I believe you. I didn't mean to suggest that you intended it to become a thread that some would call a bash - I just meant that the question begs for critical comments - and that is going to stir up the pro/anti Kwanites. But really there's nothing wrong with an honest question, and I think yours was an honest question.

[nyskatefan]

I will agree that Michelle's programs the past few years have not been as full of choreography as in the past. To some this may be a bad thing, while to others it is just fine. For me it just provided a better opportunity to marvel at her overall wonderful skating skills. But that's just me.
But here's the thing ... for those complaining about her skating over the last 4 years, and about how they think she should have retired by now ... all it would have taken is for someone ... anyone ... to step up to the plate and beat her. After all, with her stripped down choreography, it should have been easier, right? If they had, she might have made the decision to leave already, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. As it stands, no one took advantage of the opportunity she provided ... so why on earth would she leave?

Having said all this, I believe this is her last year. Just think, no more Michelle Kwan to kick around. ;)

[Kevin Callahan]

I have no favorite skaters. I look at all skaters the same way: examples to learn from. Michelle Kwan is not someone I pay attention to, I admit. I find her dull. But honestly, I find Cohen duller than her competitors. I like the Japanese skaters, they intrigue me. Like Mao Asada. They make me want to say "Hey, I want to do that!" But I can't call myself a fan of any particular skater.

I admit Kristi Yamaguchi holds a special place in my heart because she wrote Figure Skating For Dummies, and I'll be very honest, there's a lot of useful, practical, applicable information in that book.

[Kevin Callahan]

What possible motivation could the judges have for such biased behavior? I mean, it's not like Michelle is bribing them. I'm confused as to why her name would suddenly make up for a lacklustre performance when it only takes a look at the monitors to see it.

[stardust skies]

What possible motivation could the judges have for such biased behavior? I mean, it's not like Michelle is bribing them. I'm confused as to why her name would suddenly make up for a lacklustre performance when it only takes a look at the monitors to see it.

So much to learn, young Grasshopper. ;)

[Kevin Callahan]

Teach me, oh wise one.

Actually, I am curious. I mean, are you telling me there's some legal way to tweak the numbers other than by skating?

If so... :twisted:

[Tapper]

All it would have taken would be to have the JUDGES to allow ANYONE to step up to the plate and beat her. She has been outskated in some events in the past few years and still proved victorious. Competitors not quite doing enough is certainly a factor, but judges holding Michelle up is a very significant one as well.

Tara Lapinski beat her. What was that all about? (and I was not a happy camper about it either!)

[Kathy]

I think there are several dynamics involved, including but not limited to:

1) Many who complain about MK on the net do not really dislike her, but dislike her ardent and wildly devoted fans - though they say awful things about MK in the service of arguing with an MK fan.

2) Envy and resentment
1. about her dominance over the US ladies field over the last decade and her relentless domination over US nationals. She has dominated over "favorites" of many other fans.

2. That she is loved by the US general fan now even if she doesn't win or skate the best. Tara and fans found that out. Sarah and fans found that out. Irina and Sasha found that out. Just go to COI and no matter who has won the OLY and/or Worlds it is obvious who the public loves.

3. that in the last three years she has skipped the GP and still won Nationals - many think skaters who "work harder" should get the attention and rewards.

4. She hit the scene at the right time and did the right things and has earned the love of the US public and the endorsements - again even when she doesn't win.

C) Her skating reaches the emotions of many and is totally enthralling to them - those who can't see it don't understand it and keep arguing that she isn't pushing the sport because she isn't doing 3/3's etc.

D) Our fascination with youth and "the next big thing." Our culture is so youth oriented there is always a push for "out with the old in with the new." Michelle has been around so long many want her out just because they are bored of her and want a new face. 6.0 is old it now sucks. COP is new - it now defines the best skater. Michelle only won because it was 6.0 - it sucks its old. GO COP In with a new face.

E) We expect much of our sport stars - near perfection - to stay in good graces you must not falter. Michelle's accomplishments are not enough to those of this mind set - to be worthy of continued admiration she would have to have done everything she has done - AND competed in every grand prix every year of her career, "pushed" the technical side of the sport doing 3/3's etc, and improved on her previous year every current year.

E) "Your only as good as your last skate." in the eyes of the majority. That MK placed 4th at last worlds, for many, erases her previous accomplishments - until she redeems herself with yet another amazing skate. And if she ends her eligible career without a comeback, then in a couple of years she will again be recognized by most as one of the greatest skaters ever.

Legitimate reasons for not liking her are hard to find. She has been gracious in success and failure. I've never read of nor heard her say anything remotely disrespectful about any other skater or the sport. She has contirbuted so much to the sport and the popularity of the sport. Needless to say not "liking" her on the basis on any of this makes my stomach turn.

[Samskate]

Very well said, Kathy. You make many valid points. :bow:

[Tapper]

Kathy, Bravo! Well said.

[tdnuva]

Legitimate reasons for not liking her are hard to find. (..) Needless to say not "liking" her on the basis on any of this makes my stomach turn.
Now - maybe I am misunderstanding this at one point or other. But basically it seems your logic is - she is a great skater and a great person and there are no "legitimate" reasons not to like her. And then if someone still is not her fan it makes your stomach turn. Was this what you meant? If not, maybe I missed the point.

But if I understand you right, then this is exactly what can make me angry in discussions about Kwan. Sorry, but in my eyes it's legitimate to critisize her. As well as any skater. Nobody is beyond that, not even the "kween". And I also think that my critic of her routines being empty lately is a legitimate topic. Whether her fanbase does like that or not.

All this still does not mean I "dislike" her like she is disgusting or what. Of course she is not. She is a world class skater and about her personality, I don't know her well enough to feel I had a right to judge her (or most other skaters) at all. So, no I don't "dislike" her. But neither do I think she is the greatest skater ever. If this makes your stomach turn, sorry, but I can't help it.

[Kathy]

Now - maybe I am misunderstanding this at one point or other. But basically it seems your logic is - she is a great skater and a great person and there are no "legitimate" reasons not to like her. And then if someone still is not her fan it makes your stomach turn. Was this what you meant? If not, maybe I missed the point.

But if I understand you right, then this is exactly what can make me angry in discussions about Kwan. Sorry, but in my eyes it's legitimate to critisize her. As well as any skater. Nobody is beyond that, not even the "kween". And I also think that my critic of her routines being empty lately is a legitimate topic. Whether her fanbase does like that or not.

All this still does not mean I "dislike" her like she is disgusting or what. Of course she is not. She is a world class skater and about her personality, I don't know her well enough to feel I had a right to judge her (or most other skaters) at all. So, no I don't "dislike" her. But neither do I think she is the greatest skater ever. If this makes your stomach turn, sorry, but I can't help it.

Not what I said and not what I meant. It makes my stomach turn if one "dislikes" Michelle based on any of the above reasoning. Those reasons are to me reasons perhaps for some to be frustrated, bored or disappointed, but to bash her on these bases is in my mind ridiculous. To enjoy or not enjoy her skating - that is to each their own. To discuss a skaters strengths and weakness - legitimate - and they all have them. To have our favorite "greatest skater ever" everyone's entitled, and it certainly does not have to be MK. But to be vicious toward a skater that one does not even know, who has done nothing to devalue themselves or the sport and in fact has done the oposite, and to "dislike" them and ridicule them on the basis of the reasoning above well that turns my stomach. So based on what you said, no you do not turn my stomach - your entitled to your favorites as are we all. But if you read many of the posts that are negative about MK on the net which I assume prompted this thread, the hostility thrown at her is not warranted by the reality of her person or her skating. (BTW) she is obviously not the only skater who gets battered on the net and I cannot for the life of me understand the need to be so hostile towads any skater just to explain one's preferences, yet it is more common than not.

[Schmeck]

Yes, it's quite the thing to dislike the skater that places over the one you think should have won. I mean, really, those judges know absolutely nothing about skating, especially the basics of skating, like clean, deep edges, proper back crossovers, etc. :roll: I mean, they're all blind, right?

Kathy, your posts are very well thought out. They have a maturity that tends to be scarce in these kinds of threads. Be prepared...

[Samskate]

I agree Schmeck. Let the games begin. ;)

[loveskating]

I consider myself to be a Michelle Kwan fan. Lately I've noticed that those "In the know" of skating don't seem to like her very much, or atleast have some less than kind things to say. Please help explain this to an arm-chair figure skater.

I don't dislike Michelle at all, its just that when accused of so doing, I find that I like skating and honesty a lot more than I like her.

All Kwan has as to great elements is a great split falling leaf and a great COE spiral sequence; she had one of the best 3/3s in skating as to purity of technique (not big, but really pure) and she was the first woman to consistently do a 3 lutz/2 toe loop and thus get more credit for doing a second lutz. This along with consistency relative to the field and a characteristic of seeming to float on the ice and of appearing vulnerable made her exceptional.

She was a great skater but like every other great skater who came before her, the sport has progressed and she has been surpassed, IMHO since Worlds 2001 she has been going downhill.

If I feel any anger towards Michelle, its because she has failed to maintain her former level of skating, she has let it decline in fact, yet "someone" or "something" or she herself has insisted that she remain "Queen" Kwan, that she be treated by the media and others as if she is entitled to special treatment and to being held up...and she herself speaks in interviews as if she were still the best when she finally shows up for either Nationals or Worlds.

I agree with Bondo, she says she loves to compete, but she does not show up to compete for more than 3 or 4 comps a year (while allowing her fans to claim that if she was not there, the wins of others meant nothing)!

I also fault her for her role in the effort to ridicule and deamonize Sasha Cohen by accusing her of intentionally bumping her at Nationals before SLC. Michelle had a perfect opportunity to defend Sasha on the Leno show, and instead she participated in Leno's ridicule of Sasha. I find that unforgivable.

I do truly despise (and fear) a number of Kwan's fans...hard to believe how they behave on the Net and at competitions.

[loveskating]

I think there are several dynamics involved, including but not limited to:

1) Many who complain about MK on the net do not really dislike her, but dislike her ardent and wildly devoted fans - though they say awful things about MK in the service of arguing with an MK fan.

True.

[QUOTE=Kathy]2) Envy and resentment

1. about her dominance over the US ladies field over the last decade and her relentless domination over US nationals. She has dominated over "favorites" of many other fans..

Hmm. Do most of Roz's fans envy and resent Katrina Witte or vice versa? Do Kerrigan's and Bonaly's fans envy and resent Oksana Baiul? Do Orser's fans envy and resent Boitano? Do Boitano's fans envy and resent Kurt Browning taking over Boitano's place in pro skating? Do Stojko's fans envy and resent Eldredge or do fans of both Eldredge and Stojko envy and resent Kulik?

Seems to me this "envy and resent" thing would have to apply across the board to be considered valid.

I do know one thing, however, if I were Irina after the GP Finals where Irina landed the first lutz ever landed by a woman, and then Frank Carroll implied in the press that Irina won falsely, that Kwan was robbed, because Irina did not have a perfect runout, I'd have been very angry if I were Irina. Poor Irina, she actually looked scared when the marks came up!

If I'd been accused of purposefully bumping Kwan at 2002 Nationals, I'd be pretty angry about it -- and when Jay Leno ridiculed me, and Kwan joined in his fun, I'd be pretty angry -- never mind "envy and resentment".

She is loved by the US general fan now even if she doesn't win or skate the best. Tara and fans found that out. Sarah and fans found that out. Irina and Sasha found that out. Just go to COI and no matter who has won the OLY and/or Worlds it is obvious who the public loves. ..

Not obvious to me -- at Campbells the year of Sasha's Swan Lake, Kwan had only 1/3 of the audience; so did Sasha, and the rest were just enjoying everyone. After SLC everyone I talked to knew of Sarah. Everyone I talk to knows Michelle, Sarah, Sasha, Irina, Plushenko, its ice dancers and pairs they don't know except for the SLC pairs.

However I suspect that name recognition would be true of anyone who stayed in so long with such unconditional support from the USFSA because Eldredge did not win much after 1996, but his fan base remained and even expanded. He barely or did not make the podium most of the time after 1996.

3. that in the last three years she has skipped the GP and still won Nationals - many think skaters who "work harder" should get the attention and rewards. ..

Oh dear -- hard to go along with that when Kwan has finished 3rd or off the podium by doing just that for the past two years at Worlds. Its hard not to suspect her Nationals wins when she made mistakes like finishing after her music that were not noted at Nationals but were at Worlds. .

Maybe its more like working hard and taking risks will get you wins, eh? Myself, I do not like it when any skater devalues the ISU Grand Prix because that is how I get to see great skating on television!

4. She hit the scene at the right time and did the right things and has earned the love of the US public and the endorsements - again even when she doesn't win...

Kwan has perhaps earned some name recognition, but I don't think the love of the American public. Americans loved Oksana for taking their minds off of the ugliness between Harding and Kerrigan and for showing them skating in her SP that they'd never seen the like of; they loved Katya Gordeeva -- it takes a tragedy or heroism of some type to make Americans love most ANY celebrity -- thus they love Scott Hamilton for overcoming cancer. I've never heard anyone at work or otherwise casually a fan of or watching skating say that they love Michelle (or anyone except the above).

C) Her skating reaches the emotions of many and is totally enthralling to them - those who can't see it don't understand it and keep arguing that she isn't pushing the sport because she isn't doing 3/3's etc...

I think she has a characteristic of appearing to float, which is pleasing, and she is vulnerable. That is part of what used to be called presentation, but not all of it...and does not overcome a significantly low tech level in a given field of skaters.

Also, her skating reaches YOUR emotions -- you cannot speak for everyone unless you have serious objective data. There are people who do not like her skating. Her skating no longer reaches my emotions because I am not impressed with how slow and unvaried her spins are, or how she now just strokes and jumps -- my sense of great skating has been expanded considerably as to both quality and content by other skaters, is all! I preferred her to the young Irina, to Kwiatkowski, Bobek and the young Tara, I even preferred her overall to Maria B. -- but now, I cannot prefer her to a mature Irina, Sasha, Miki Ando, even Alissa C, Arakawa etc.

D) Our fascination with youth and "the next big thing." Our culture is so youth oriented there is always a push for "out with the old in with the new." Michelle has been around so long many want her out just because they are bored of her and want a new face. 6.0 is old it now sucks. COP is new - it now defines the best skater. Michelle only won because it was 6.0 - it sucks its old. GO COP In with a new face.....

PC nonsense. Its not about "younger", its about quality of skating.

COP reflects a higher level of skating, by real skaters like Kulik, Yagudin, Plushenko, Sasha, Arakawa, particularly in that the transitions are rewarded and more than jumps are rewarded...spins etc. and quality per element is rewarded. Its not a fad ...however, IMHO the ISU does need to make extension of 75 degrees on a sprial a level 3 and the COE on that a level 4, however, and they need to make the classic layback a level 4.

E) We expect much of our sport stars - near perfection - to stay in good graces you must not falter. Michelle's accomplishments are not enough to those of this mind set - to be worthy of continued admiration she would have to have done everything she has done - AND competed in every grand prix every year of her career, "pushed" the technical side of the sport doing 3/3's etc, and improved on her previous year every current year......

We don't expect our sports stars not to falter, we just expect them to lose when they do, when someone else outdoes them, out performs them -- this is called "competition" I think??? Of course, you can falter if everyone else does, like when Kristi fell at her Ollympics, everyone else fell too so it did not matter.

E) "Your only as good as your last skate." in the eyes of the majority. That MK placed 4th at last worlds, for many, erases her previous accomplishments - until she redeems herself with yet another amazing skate. And if she ends her eligible career without a comeback, then in a couple of years she will again be recognized by most as one of the greatest skaters ever.......

Kwan will always be recognized as a great skater, who made a huge contribution to the sport. I myself cheer for her every time she hits the ice, but I no longer think she deserves to win in this field, any more than I'd think Peggy Fleming, with no 3 jumps at all, would deserve to beat Kwan in a competition between them!!! Kwan has just been surpassed, is all. She might have a lucky night at the Olympics, or be held up by the judges, but her actual skating is surpassed, and anyone who knows skating knows it.

Legitimate reasons for not liking her are hard to find. She has been gracious in success and failure. I've never read of nor heard her say anything remotely disrespectful about any other skater or the sport. She has contirbuted so much to the sport and the popularity of the sport. Needless to say not "liking" her on the basis on any of this makes my stomach turn.

Well, I do not dislike her. But I disagree with most of your points, facially, whether applied to Michelle or any other skater, as I have pointed out specfically. Still, I suspect I will be accused of disliking her.

[Tapper]

[QUOTE=Kathy]Kwan has just been surpassed, is all. She might have a lucky night at the Olympics, or be held up by the judges, but her actual skating is surpassed, and anyone who knows skating knows it.


Tarasova says that Kwan isn't finished yet. Boitano says that this is going to be her year. Evidently they either don't know anything about skating, or not everyone who knows something about skating believes that Kwan has been surpassed.

[loveskating]

[QUOTE=loveskating]

Tarasova says that Kwan isn't finished yet. Boitano says that this is going to be her year. Evidently they either don't know anything about skating, or not everyone who knows something about skating believes that Kwan has been surpassed.

Well, that sure bursts my little bubble, don't it!

[loveskating]

I will agree that Michelle's programs the past few years have not been as full of choreography as in the past. To some this may be a bad thing, while to others it is just fine. For me it just provided a better opportunity to marvel at her overall wonderful skating skills. But that's just me.
But here's the thing ... for those complaining about her skating over the last 4 years, and about how they think she should have retired by now ... all it would have taken is for someone ... anyone ... to step up to the plate and beat her. After all, with her stripped down choreography, it should have been easier, right? If they had, she might have made the decision to leave already, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. As it stands, no one took advantage of the opportunity she provided ... so why on earth would she leave?

Having said all this, I believe this is her last year. Just think, no more Michelle Kwan to kick around. ;)

Are you in denial? People have stepped up to the plate and beat Kwanr, and beat her soundly. This amazing ability to disjoint from reality is, well, peculiar!

[Tapper]

[QUOTE=Tapper]

Well, that sure bursts my little bubble, don't it!

I don't know if it bursts your little bubble or not, but it does suggest that not "everyone who knows anything about skating" agrees with your assessment of Michelle Kwan.

[Kathy]

Loveskating
Why is it necessary for you to be so hostile and demeaning in your attempt to communicate your ideas.

[Schmeck]

Kathy, very good question, but be surprised if you get a polite answer. Some posters here are covered in teflon, or so they think ;)

Bondo, I really wish you'd put your money where your keyboard is and become a judge, since you have posted so many times that the judges are wrong...

[duckies77]

[QUOTE=batikat] her.

With all the hype and devotion Michelle engenders I was prepared to be enthralled by her skating. However, instead I was totally disappointed. It seemed a terribly lacklustre performance, lots of plain stroking between elements instead of the interesting moves other skaters had, and no connection with the audience (except for the devoted Michelle fans who were jumping up and down with tears down their faces at the sight of their idol - I could not for the life of me see what they were getting so excited about!). Also I hated to see her in the warm up, lazily toepushing around the ice - it looked so ugly.

It 's quite simple really and nothing to do with dislike, just from a personal view-point when someones skating has never endeared you for all sorts of reason such as the above quote," lazily toepushing around the ice- it looked so ugly",M y sentiments entirely and we witness it every appearance ! Her movement and line/carriage can never equate to graceful fluidity, and with two flat feet set too wide apart, the long inflexible torso rendering the impossibility of attaining beautiful lay-back spins, does not add up to visual delight. Versatility is lacking too , everything is much the same.
Moreover in interviews she claims she loves competing, yet she rarely competes!! Kwan does not seem to give much back to her fans.
We can only enthuse if it's warranted.

[crayonskater]

Meh.

It's kind of the Yankees phenomenon plus rabid Sasha fans who are convinced that Sasha would have many National Championships if it weren't for Michelle. (That's true; the American field is otherwise somewhat weak, but I think it's also true that no one would give a damn about some figure skater's silver medals unless it could be billed as a close contest. Sasha I think recognizes that she owes a lot to Michelle for sticking around.)

As I've said before, for an American who's already qualified for Nationals, the GP might as well be a fluff competition. Plus, I suspect that if Michelle skated every GP, people would be complaining that she was hogging the spotlight and not giving newbies a chance to get exposure. And yeah, Sasha's GP win, iirc, was in a year without Michelle or Irina. That doesn't make it valueless, but it does dampen it a bit (just as Czisny's win would be more impressive had there been more of a challenge than Elena). You qualify for the Olympics independently of the GP, so it's not taking up anyone's spot.

Judges' opinions are part of it, and perhaps that's the reason for the long string of Nationals wins (though, I can't remember a clean Sasha long program at Nationals, so it's hard to say); but I can't believe that would hold up internationally over the long haul. With the CoP, it's going to be harder to tweak scores, so this should be an interesting year.

I used to like Michelle's skating more, but it's hard to say that she's out of it. She missed the podium at Worlds last year by what, a point? and first by 20? That's a sizable gap, but not an insurmountable one.

[flippet]

It's kind of the Yankees phenomenon plus rabid Sasha fans who are convinced that Sasha would have many National Championships if it weren't for Michelle.

For some, sure, but definitely not all. I, for one, don't have any illusions about Sasha and 'many National championships'...sure, I like Sasha, but if it wasn't Michelle, it would have been someone else...the day I see that girl put together two completely clean programs in the same competition will be when heck freezes over, I'm beginning to believe. She's her own worst enemy, she doesn't need any 'rivalry' to miss the top of the podium.

Seriously, though...part of it is fan wars, sure. But there are a whole lot of us for whom her skating and/or choreography simply doesn't do much. I liked Michelle a lot in the beginning, her programs were innovative and well-executed, sometimes magical. Now, they're just well-executed, most of the time. I haven't felt the magic for years, and most of the choreography just bores me. (But then, I'm pretty hard to please in that realm...most skaters' choreography lately has bored me to tears.)

I'm sure she's a sweet girl, she's pretty amazing just for sticking around for so long at the top levels, and her consistency really has been something. She just doesn't 'wow' me any more. I guess I tend to love programs over skaters--and Michelle's just haven't done it for me lately.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I find it quite risible that international judges would hold Michelle up at Worlds. (National judges at nationals? Sure.)

[7302005]

loveskating, I am not bashing you here, but have a few questions and comments

were you present at the "infamous" event of Sasha and Michelle's "run-in" at 2002 Nationals? I was - from my perspective it was intentional. But then, that was my point of view, I am sure to others it looked differently. At that time, I had been attending Nationals for 3 years going to as many of the practices as possible and was/am always in amazement that the skaters could and did watch out for each other, most of the time checking on each other after a miss or run in. That's why the infamous incident looked different to me - but then I said it was my perception.

I was also present at Skate America that season, when sitting in front of me was the "we was robbed" camp from the Hughes. Those were very close to their words. I would rather the family say, I disagree with the marks than well you know the judges are all in so and so's camp.

I have been present at some "let's get together and watch skating" gatherings where Irina is referred to as Sluts. Now, I really have a hard time with that too. One may not like a skater or the country from which the skater is from, but...that is way over the top for me.

I realize that competitive skating is that - competitive. Which is why I could never be a skater mom.

Personal choice is personal choice. I just object to someone or someone's fans saying - get out of my way because you have been the star too long.

Michelle will have a place in history, just because of what she has accomplished. Is that because I want it to be so - no, it is because of her record.

For kicks and giggles here, let's imagine a forum such as this during the Sonia Henie time period. I can imagine that many would have said it was way past time for her to retire after what...how many years?

Sasha does have excellent positions in spirals. The spins are wonderful, even if I do not like the positions. What is lacking is putting together 3 clean programs. I think that she could be a World champion. However on that note, I prefer other skaters, which does put me in a position that some of the Sasha fans can not understand.

Skating is subjective - we know that...Salt Lake gate proved it to the rest of the non skating fan world. But I do have to say, I can not understand the absolute intense dislike on some fans for ANY, and I MEAN ANY skater. Skating is so beautiful. We should embrace what the skating bring to the ice and to the sport.

[icedancer2]

For kicks and giggles here, let's imagine a forum such as this during the Sonia Henie time period. I can imagine that many would have said it was way past time for her to retire after what...how many years?

LOL -- I bet they did say that!!!!


Skating is subjective - we know that...Salt Lake gate proved it to the rest of the non skating fan world. But I do have to say, I can not understand the absolute intense dislike on some fans for ANY, and I MEAN ANY skater. Skating is so beautiful. We should embrace what the skating bring to the ice and to the sport.

You are so right!!

I am in the "bored with Michelle" camp. This is not to say I dislike her at all. She has excited me on many occassions, both on TV and in person. But she has also put me to sleep at times, especially lately.

I just wish someone could beat her. At Nationals.

Operative word here: could. So far, no one (besides Tara) has beaten her at Nationals in so so many years...

[loveskating]

I've quoted you below after my comments for refernece.

Paul Wylie had nothing but an Olympic silver medal, yet he was one of the finest skaters America ever produced, and except for the 3 axel, he could IMHO skate CIRCLES around Brian Boitano, frankly. So its not the record, its the skating as far as I am concerned.

As for the bump, no, I was not there; I was on numerous occasions, however, standing in the freezing cold at the outdoor rink in our park where my daughter was in the skating club playing program tapes for the skaters and giving them their orange highway vest so everyone could see them and get out of their way while they ran through their competitive program -- so I know precisely what a real bump is and I know that they happen all the time. There is NO WAY you can tell if a bump is intentional unless it ocurs again and again. It is flatly impossible to determine that. I say this as honestly as I can because I was responsible if any child at that rink did anything wrong, and I assure you, without MUCH evidence, I would never have accused ANY child of intentionally bumping anyone else! The bump was NOTHING, hard to prove a bump even happpened. I found it very interesting at the time, however, that that particular warm up was televised.

Not sure what you are referring to -- I thought it was Skate Canada where the USFSA referee said the judges were wrong, that Kwan did not win. I recall her performance being seriously flawed and not at the high level of difficulty of Sarah's. Sarah's spins were remarkable, really first rate, including back catch and layback -- her spiral sequence was probably 4th in the world, although not the best, and her jumps, while sometimes underrotated, were really strong and difficult, much more difficult than anything Kwan tried that season. Sarah's presentation, overall, was somewhat lacking, but she very often brought the house down, so live she must have really been something.


loveskating, I am not bashing you here, but have a few questions and comments

were you present at the "infamous" event of Sasha and Michelle's "run-in" at 2002 Nationals? I was - from my perspective it was intentional. But then, that was my point of view, I am sure to others it looked differently. At that time, I had been attending Nationals for 3 years going to as many of the practices as possible and was/am always in amazement that the skaters could and did watch out for each other, most of the time checking on each other after a miss or run in. That's why the infamous incident looked different to me - but then I said it was my perception.

I was also present at Skate America that season, when sitting in front of me was the "we was robbed" camp from the Hughes. Those were very close to their words. I would rather the family say, I disagree with the marks than well you know the judges are all in so and so's camp.

I have been present at some "let's get together and watch skating" gatherings where Irina is referred to as Sluts. Now, I really have a hard time with that too. One may not like a skater or the country from which the skater is from, but...that is way over the top for me.

I realize that competitive skating is that - competitive. Which is why I could never be a skater mom.

Personal choice is personal choice. I just object to someone or someone's fans saying - get out of my way because you have been the star too long.

Michelle will have a place in history, just because of what she has accomplished. Is that because I want it to be so - no, it is because of her record.

For kicks and giggles here, let's imagine a forum such as this during the Sonia Henie time period. I can imagine that many would have said it was way past time for her to retire after what...how many years?

Sasha does have excellent positions in spirals. The spins are wonderful, even if I do not like the positions. What is lacking is putting together 3 clean programs. I think that she could be a World champion. However on that note, I prefer other skaters, which does put me in a position that some of the Sasha fans can not understand.

Skating is subjective - we know that...Salt Lake gate proved it to the rest of the non skating fan world. But I do have to say, I can not understand the absolute intense dislike on some fans for [B]ANY, and I MEAN ANY skater. Skating is so beautiful. We should embrace what the skating bring to the ice and to the sport.

[Schmeck]

I too have a daughter who skates, and yes, I can tell when a skater deliberately cuts off another skater. It happens all the time at our little rink, when some egos get out of control. One would think that elite skaters have the brains to figure this out - who has the right of way, where the jump corners are, etc. When there are only 6 skaters out on a session, it's pretty pathetically obvious when one cuts another one off. When one gets too close, and contact is made, that's dangerous.

[7302005]

You seem to assume that my view is flavored by what the media portrays.

The "bump" - I never saw the media coverage until weeks later, when I finally got around to watching the tapes my family made for me

The Skate America incident - was not televised or even mentioned on any media blitz. It was being said loud enough for those in my section to hear.

:frus: :frus: :frus: :frus:

[Jaana]

[QUOTE=loveskating]

Tarasova says that Kwan isn't finished yet. Boitano says that this is going to be her year. Evidently they either don't know anything about skating, or not everyone who knows something about skating believes that Kwan has been surpassed.

Yeah, but as how impartial can Boitano and Tarasova be regarded in this matter? Boitano is Kwan´s friend and Tarasova her choreographer this season, LOL.

[crayonskater]

There is NO WAY you can tell if a bump is intentional unless it ocurs again and again.

That just seems silly. I am pretty sure it's possible to skate in front of someone intentionally only once. And from what I saw on TV, it did look intentional. Not that I think Sasha wanted to hurt Michelle, but that she wanted to show off and prove she was 'there'. It's a sort of forgivable offense.

Most warmups for Nationals/Olympics back then were televised; the media made more out of it because it created some controversy, but that's not Michelle's fault, really. She also can't control what her fans think.


I liked Michelle a lot in the beginning, her programs were innovative and well-executed, sometimes magical. Now, they're just well-executed, most of the time. I haven't felt the magic for years, and most of the choreography just bores me.

I agree; I haven't found her programs exciting for a couple years now. But there's a far cry between thinking she's off her A game and thinking that winning Nationals and finishing fourth at Worlds means 'OMG WASHED UP RETIRE SO SASHA CAN WIN' (which is not what you're saying, of course.)

[Tapper]

[QUOTE=Tapper]

Yeah, but as how impartial can Boitano and Tarasova be regarded in this matter? Boitano is Kwan´s friend and Tarasova her choreographer this season, LOL.

Impartial, maybe not. But they are both know something about skating, which was my point, intended to counter loveskating's comment that "anyone who knows anything about skating" knows that MK has been surpassed.

[loveskating]

I too have a daughter who skates, and yes, I can tell when a skater deliberately cuts off another skater. It happens all the time at our little rink, when some egos get out of control. One would think that elite skaters have the brains to figure this out - who has the right of way, where the jump corners are, etc. When there are only 6 skaters out on a session, it's pretty pathetically obvious when one cuts another one off. When one gets too close, and contact is made, that's dangerous.

Bumps etc. happen all the time, so listen, Mr. Schmeck, if you accused MY daughter of intentionally cutting off or bumping anyone in a freestyle or other session, I'd get right up in your lieing face, and what's more, I'd take you to court for slander and attempting to fraudulently destroy someone's reputation so fast it would make your arrogant little head swim -- how the heck do you know the intentions of anyone other than perhaps those of your own child?

Cutting someone off happens not out of intention, but out of lack of skill or not paying attention. VERY RARELY does a child do something like that on purpose, and partly because it is just as dangerous for the angry child as it is for her or his target!

On another subject, that warm up was televised, on LIfe channel or something -- I forget the exact name. It was a wierd telecast where neither ABC nor ESPN could do it, so LIfetime or some channel on cable like that televised it. I saw no bump but I was not really watching. I'm sure this could be corrborated in the TV Guide archives, for instance.

[flippet]

Bumps etc. happen all the time, so listen, Mr. Schmeck, if you accused MY daughter of intentionally cutting off or bumping anyone in a freestyle or other session, I'd get right up in your lieing face, and what's more, I'd take you to court for slander and attempting to fraudulently destroy someone's reputation so fast it would make your arrogant little head swim -- how the heck do you know the intentions of anyone other than perhaps those of your own child?

This is way out of line. Attacking other posters like this is against the rules. Consider this your warning.

~flippet

[sk8er1964]

I too have a daughter who skates, and yes, I can tell when a skater deliberately cuts off another skater. It happens all the time at our little rink, when some egos get out of control. One would think that elite skaters have the brains to figure this out - who has the right of way, where the jump corners are, etc. When there are only 6 skaters out on a session, it's pretty pathetically obvious when one cuts another one off. When one gets too close, and contact is made, that's dangerous.

I have skated many busy freestyle sessions, and very rarely does a collision or a cut-off happen due to "attitude". There are a lot of opportunities for mistakes to happen when one or more skaters have to make split second decisions.

I have also found that the kids who compete at the national level are the ones who are the most courteous, the most conscious, and the most careful of the other skaters.

As for the "bump", I can't comment on that because I didn't see it.

[Scarlett21]

She is so dull on ice now. I think that all her programmes are very much alike. And it's symbolic that she has never been the Olimpic champion. She is not worth. Her level of technique is not high at all. And the main thing to my mind is that her programmes are not interesting, there is no contents in them. The second Kwan is Sasha Kohen

[sk8er6]

People dislike Michelle because in her last years of competition she became a self-absorbed prime donna. She withdrew from Nationals in an Olympic year, tarnishing Sasha's well deserved gold (she would've won even if Michelle had been there) and even had the nerve to begin whining about the judges after they had saved her so many times. Michelle brought it on herself

[Tessie]

People dislike Michelle because in her last years of competition she became a self-absorbed prime donna. She withdrew from Nationals in an Olympic year, tarnishing Sasha's well deserved gold (she would've won even if Michelle had been there) and even had the nerve to begin whining about the judges after they had saved her so many times. Michelle brought it on herself

She w/drew because hwe was injured and was trying to heal for Olys. Let it go. Splasha pulled through and won gold and was given an admitted gift at the Olys.

Will this thread still continue when MK is a member of AARP?