World Champion or Olympic medalist (not Gold)?

[Lark]

Which do you think most skaters would rather be?

Johnny Weir recently made a comment along the lines that he would rather be World Champion than be remembered as someone who got "lucky" on one night and won the Olympic Gold. Somewhere along those lines.

Yuka Sato seemed very satisfied to be World Champion.

Todd Eldredge and Maria Butyrskaya seemed like they would have given their first born to have had ANY Olympic medal toward the end.

But if you took Olympic Gold out of the equation, do you think most skaters would rather be a World Champion, or have an Olympic Silver or Bronze medal?

It seems to me that being World Champion holds more esteem in the skating world, while the "real" world only recognizes Olympic acheivements.

[sunshine_sk8er]

this discussion seems to relate to Sarah Hughes's Olympic Gold..aside from the fact that she skated the most beautiful program ever, she did need some luck in how the top three placed..however i suppose it comes down to what a skater wants and their goals in their careers..perhaps they worked rlly hard to "get lucky" on their Olympic or World nite, IMO

[lotusland]

I think it depends very much on the individual skater.

Canada's Brian Orser has said several times (he being a World Champion) he feels as though he lost the Gold not like he won the Silver at the Olympics in Calgary. His lamenting over falling short of the Gold could be interpreted to say he felt the Olympic Gold was more significant than the World Gold medal (at least in his eyes).

Kurt Browning has also made somewhat similar comments (as a 4 time World Champion). He has expressed his huge disappointment at not winning the Olympic Gold medal, or indeed any Olympic medal at all.

Rob McCall on the other hand, was absolutely thrilled to have cracked the top three in ice dance and won 4 Bronze medals in total, 3 World Bronze medals (1986, '87 and '88) and 1 at the '88 Olympics.

Heck, I would bet $$$ there are some skaters who are thrilled beyond their wildest dreams just to have been competing at the World Championships or the Olympics ... period ... let alone win a medal. :D

[loveskating]

I don't think what a skater SUBJECTIVELY wants is relevant to any discussion of the objective value of being a world champ or an olympic gold medalist.

First of all, the main value of skating is to the skater, its their passion, their work, their avocation and as to that, every grown up and fully educated skater knows who is the best at some element and overall, they know if they are it, or if they are not, unless, of course, they are mentally ill.

Ask Pasha Grishuk, Alexei Urmanov, Ilia Kulik, Krylova & Ovsiannikov about the value of world championships OR an OGM.

[jpeach]

hmmmm, interesting question. I believe one would rather be World Champ than silver/bronze at the Olys.

There are a few people who genuinely appeared happy with the silver: Paul Wylie and Liz Manley come to mind.

I believe there are few skaters for whom it would be ok NOT to get the gold at Olys, Michele Kwan among them. I truly feel that, if she doesn't win the gold at Turin (and it isn't looking likely right now), it will not affect her ala Orser, Rosalyn Summers, etc.

[stardust skies]

Hmm, I'd rather be Olympic Bronze than World champ, and that's for a couple of reasons: number one, the stigma of the Olympics, and number two, you get to keep your title for 4 whole years! Haha. Seriously though, anything with the word "Olympic" on it is what I would want. It's just a dream you have when you are little...you don't think about Worlds so much, just the great big Olympic games. They're legendary, they have so much amazing history. To have a medal from that would just be the most amazing thing in the world, I'd think.

[jazzpants]

Heck, I have a former Olympian as a secondary coach and he's making a decent living for himself... and I also just met a coach (another Olympian figure skater) at my competition who's putting out like 30 students for competition... in ONE DAY!!! 8O :bow: (Nice guy!)

And the point is... you don't always end up making tons of money from being an Olympian. MK "made it" w/o the Olympic Gold! So... if she doesn't get an Olympic gold medal, big friggin deal!!! She has all the benefits that comes out of being a world famous figure skater. ;)

[pondskater]

it's refreshing that Johnny is willing to speak his mind, but I thought his comment about "getting lucky" at the Olympics was interesting, considering it might be him who gets lucky this year! Also, any comments on why he would choose to continue skating on an injured ankle in an Olympic year? Anyone heard how he is doing?

[stardust skies]

it's refreshing that Johnny is willing to speak his mind, but I thought his comment about "getting lucky" at the Olympics was interesting, considering it might be him who gets lucky this year! Also, any comments on why he would choose to continue skating on an injured ankle in an Olympic year? Anyone heard how he is doing?

I would guess he is doing it because there are no guarantees he'll be physically able to do it again in four years (he could injure himself permanently in the four years leading up to 2010, you never know), and because he doesn't know how his skating will be in four years compared to everyone else's at the time, and there's no certainty he'll even have the opportunity to get sent to the Olympics again by then. He didn't work on this sport for ten years just to let an ankle sprain stop him. Sure, he said he'd rather be world champion than Olympic medalist, but he didn't say he would mind being both. ;)

[Schmeck]

It's just 'as lucky' to win a World championship as it is to win an Olympic gold medal. It's all about one skating competition, and who can keep it all together for a few days. Now, if one were to win two Oly golds in a row, and a bunch of World championships to boot, then that would be something!

[Sk8pdx]

And the point is... you don't always end up making tons of money from being an Olympian. MK "made it" w/o the Olympic Gold! So... if she doesn't get an Olympic gold medal, big friggin deal!!! She has all the benefits that comes out of being a world famous figure skater. ;)

Nicely said, Jazzpants. I agree :)

[WildRose]

There's an article out today with some great quotes from Kurt Browning that kind of fits with this discussion. Kurt is serving as a mentor for Jeff Buttle as he prepares for his first Olympics:

"Buttle getting help from Browning"
http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/FigureSkating/2005/11/10/1301357-cp.html

[likes2skate]

You are very generous to her...many of us think she's only hung around this long out of lust for the Olympic Gold Medal.

I certainly think someone, generally, would prefer to be a World Champion than Olympic silver medalist. But they'd rather be an Olympic Gold Medalist than a World Champion. I think it is obvious enough why so I won't try to defend it.

I think what Jpeach was saying is that if MK doesn't win the Olympics this year, it will not affect her popularity as a skaing icon. I don't think she was saing Michelle is just competing because she has nothing else to do.

On another note, maybe she is also hanging around to break both records for the most Nat/World titles for an american lady, along with the Olympic Gold? OR maybe she is trying to be one of the only american women to have 3 olympic medals? Maybe she is trying to break her own record of most national titles won in a row won by a US lady?

Michelle has a lot of options as far as accomplishments this year, not only winning olympic gold. I can see why she does not want to give up!

[Saundy]

You are very generous to her...many of us think she's only hung around this long out of lust for the Olympic Gold Medal.

I certainly think someone, generally, would prefer to be a World Champion than Olympic silver medalist. But they'd rather be an Olympic Gold Medalist than a World Champion. I think it is obvious enough why so I won't try to defend it.

I agree, watching her teary-eyed at both the '98 and '02 olympics as she stood to get her silver and bronze medals respectively, made me realize that in her mind she was thinking she has the gold snatched from her. You could tell she was fighting back the tears. So I'd say that the only reason she's hanging around is so she can have another shot at the gold.

I know if it were me, I'd be happy just to win ANY medal or even just be thankful to be there!

[7302005]

I think that generally, the Olympic medals are considered in high regard because those are the names (with some exceptions) that the general public remembers.

Some of my co-workers claim to be fans, but really only watch during an Olympic year. And are greatly influenced by the announcers' knowledge (or lack thereof) of the skater's abilities.

my s-i-l is a great example of what the non-skating fan public knows of skating. I was in her home city for Nationals. My brother picked me up for dinner. S-i-l wanted to know if I would be watching Tara and Sarah. Fortunately my brother gently explained to her what competition meant. And she did seem pleased that I would see Michelle skate. I think the comment was "Oh good then you get to see someone famous" (Good thing I was in the back seat).

So, actually I think that skaters want the Olympic medals just because it does jar some memory in the public's minds

[7302005]

I didn't say it was noble, I said it was at least in my mind why some treasure the Olympic medals over Worlds.

[stardust skies]

That doesn't seem very noble to me. I hope there aren't any skaters with that as a driving motivation in elevating the Olympics.

I think the Olympics, moreso than Worlds, DOES have the best competition, so it truly is the hardest to win.


It has the exact same competition...

[angelskates]

It has the exact same competition...

Actually maybe even less (esp. for skating), due to citizen requirements (think possibly Tanith and Ben) and age requirements (think Mao Asado).

[crayonskater]

The Olympics is pure visibility; it's the only thing that the casual fan is likely to remember, and while I doubt that the top skaters are skating just to become famous, it's certainly probably the most hyped event in their minds from the time they were little. There's also fewer Olympic champions than world champions.

Someone like Michelle Kwan didn't need the gold for visibility, as a string of World and National Championships did that for her. But one World championship versus one Olympic championship? Who won the World senior ladies championship in 1989? No Googling! Think the average fan can get that without Googling?

Weir really comes across as sour grapes in that spot, though. No idea what he's normally like, but it really sounded like, "Hey, I'm different, I'm edgy, and if you don't like me so what, I think an Olympic gold is stupid anyway because I'm unlikely to contend for it."

[Tapper]

Which do you think most skaters would rather be?....It seems to me that being World Champion holds more esteem in the skating world, while the "real" world only recognizes Olympic acheivements.

I really haven't a clue as to what I should think about this. BUT, I was thinking the other day how totally impressed I was to learn that an acquaintance was an "Olympian" - that is he was on the US Olympic swim team. Then I thought about the figure skaters who won silver and bronze and began to think about what an incredible accomplishment it is to win a medal... not just gold, but any color medal. And then I began to wonder why we disparage those who win silver or bronze, when really, just to make it to the Olympics is a remarkable achievement. An Olympian is an Olympian is an Olympian. I think that being announced as "Olympic Champion" is a BIG deal, but I also think that to be announced as an "Olympian" is also a BIG deal... Really, to make it to the Olympics, to make it to Worlds... it's a great achievement... and I'm wondering who the heck am I to disparage anyone who gets that far? I :bow: to all those who are good enough to get that far. I think that the Olympics have been hyped as being THE BIG event, but really, being World Champion is also a big deal... there can only be ONE World Champion in any given event in any given year. The accomplishment is a pretty big deal, IMHO. On the other hand, who knows what is going on in the minds of any given skater regarding the Nationals, Worlds, or Olympic competitions? I think it's a pretty subjective thing, as Loveskating was saying.

[Oracle]

I don't think it is the medals that motivate the skaters to "go for the gold" whether it is their Nationals or Worlds or the Olympics. I think seeing their name in the record books & knowing that so long as there is a sport of ice skating their names will still be recorded & their accomplishments remembered long after they have died. It's not the only thing that motivates them, financial rewards & careers are important, too. However, for the North American elite skaters Olympic gold is no longer a prerequisite for success after they end their eligible careers. Popularity is a big factor along with their personal medal counts.

[stardust skies]

Well I just caught the rerun of Skate Canada which is where Johnny said the thing about holding Worlds in higher regard...but what he said was that he'd rather win a few Worlds than just win Olympics once and appear as if he might get lucky. That's a totally different thing. Winning a few Worlds IS better than one Olympic, no doubt about it. As to one Olympic vs one World, it's pretty much the same. Worlds can be tougher in a non-Olympic year because people who can't get to the Olys with citizenship issues CAN go to Worlds, so they do (as someone mentioned, Tanith and Ben are a great example..). But really, it's the same competition, IMO. Olympics just has added visibility, interest and prestige. As far as the competitors it's the same thing. And the Olys don't have a qualifying round, which also makes it easier.

[soogar]

Olympics is the tougher competition because of the visibility and the pressure. Also most (if not all skaters) dream of the Olympics. As a result, skaters work extra hard for the Olympics and pressure tends to affect the top dogs. Look at Michelle. She has won 5 World titles but can't win the big title. If Olympics wasn't a tough competition, based on her track record, she should be a two time OGM. Todd who medaled in almost every World comp he entered in couldn't even squeeze out an Olympic bronze medal.

[loveskating]

Well, IMHO the more valuable medal used to be the OGM, or any Olympic medal, but not any more.

I agree with those who say that the level of competition is highest at the Olympics, if only because that is the "peak" athletes go for.

I love Johnney, he is currently the skater I most enjoy seeing skate among the men, perhaps along with Plushenko, but I think he was basically wrong. For one thing, he has been rewarded highly under the COP when he has not made serious mistakes! For another, its a mistake to claim that anyone in the top 5 "got lucky"! The real truth, despite the utter hype approach of ABC, is that on any given day, anyone in the top 5 could win.

[Mel On Ice]

The real truth, despite the utter hype approach of ABC, is that on any given day, anyone in the top 5 could win.

Or, in case of Sandu, the top 7.

[loveskating]

Or, in case of Sandu, the top 7.


ROFL, yes! COP has changed the odds. Not a bad result, either, IMHO. Sandhu is a wonderful skater, does everything well.

[diagetus]

As one of the posters suggested, can you remember who won men's at Worlds in 1970? This is a reasonable point. I think the Olympics is more visible than Worlds. To be fair though, most people only recognize the names of champions, not necessarily what year they won the gold, whether that be Olympics or Worlds. They are just able to make a better guess because the Olympics is every four years. Personally, a Worlds gold and an Olympic gold would be the same to me. Any athlete who wins a Worlds gold/Olympic gold should be considered the best skater in the world for his/her particular discipline.

As far as the quality and intensity of competition, I think it's about the same. It's the adept atheletes that attend the competitions that make a competition high level. Coaches build athletes, not judges. Of course, the athelete plays a part in the development process. The competition is merely a confirmation/verification of that development. The reality is that an athlete is tested EVERY time they go to practice to do the necessary elements and routines. Yes, focus under pressure is a new added element, but it doesn't seem to have a fatal affect on the bulk of top tier competitors.

A competition suffers when only a few of the elite athletes attend. An example of this would be the 1980 Olympics. The United States boycotted the event. As a result some of the best athletes in the world did not compete. In that case, Worlds was probably better than the Olympics.

I can see what Johnny Weir is saying about being lucky on an Olympic year. Remember that the Olympics are every four years. That's a long time when it comes to high level competitors. When you're competing on an extremely high level within really tight performance boundaries, even the slightest changes move a person from bronze to gold. Ice skating isn't so bad, but other sports like gymnastics are very dependant on timing. A female gymnast may fall out of the running for gold because she happened to peak one year before the Olympics. Puberty hits and knocks things off calibration. Age does play into a lot of the Olympic competitions. Worlds is a much better gauge of the change in the competition pool. It's also showing you which skaters are consistently strong. It's easy to have a lucky win in black jack once. If you're winning black jack eight games out of ten, that's not luck. That's skill.

[babyballerina]

A competition suffers when only a few of the elite athletes attend. An example of this would be the 1980 Olympics. The United States boycotted the event. As a result some of the best athletes in the world did not compete. In that case, Worlds was probably better than the Olympics.


I agree but this doesn't apply to skating. The winter Olympics wasn't boycotted (since it was in Lake Placid). Has it ever been?

[Oracle]

For those of you who don't know...Tim Wood of the US was the mens World Champion in 1970 (1969, too).

[diagetus]

babyballerina- I agree but this doesn't apply to skating. The winter Olympics wasn't boycotted (since it was in Lake Placid). Has it ever been?

To my knowledge, I don't think the US has ever boycotted the Winter Olympics, but I could be wrong. As far as anyone else boycotting the Winter Games, there seem to be two countries that boycotted. Here's info taken from the Wikipedia:

The Bavarian twin towns of Garmisch and Partenkirchen joined to organise the 1936 edition of the Winter Games, held from February 6 to 16. Alpine skiing made its Olympic debut in Germany, but skiing teachers were barred from entering, as they were considered to be professionals. This decision caused the Swiss and Austrian skiers to boycott the Olympics.

and also,

The People's Republic of China made its debut at the (1980) Winter Olympics. Because of this, the Republic of China (Taiwan) was forced by the IOC to compete under the name of Chinese Taipei. The Taiwanese refused, and thus became the only nation to boycott the Olympic Winter Games.

Granted, the first case was limited to skiing, but it was still a boycott.

[loveskating]

I don't think that the medals for either Worlds or the Olympics are any more a strong indication of who is "best".

Several things are working to make this so -- one is the takeover by corporations, who are the biggest control freaks in the universe, and who have corrupted the sport, IMHO for the sake of their control and investment to profit ratio.

Second, I think there are now a LOT of great skaters -- its the same problem baseball has run into -- it is perceived that the Babe Ruth players are few and far between, but in actuality, the number of Babe Ruth level players has increased enormously (the great players were essentially innovators, and their demonstrations are then popularized).

In that scenario, being the best is a lot harder, and being the best is not to be all that better than one's closest competitor.

So, we tend to look at elements, as in Lucinda Rue, for the miraculous, outstanding.

[Jaana]

I believe that every skater that is really honest about the matter, would rather win an Olympic gold medal than a gold medal at Worlds. After all, the Olympic gold medal definetely is the most prestigious medal a skater can win in the sport of figure skating. And the figure skating being the kind of sport it is, an unknown skater cannot win the Olympic gold. It always is one of the top skaters. In my opinion it is not a lucky night for some skater, it is a question of whose nerves can handle a really big competition and who will crumble under the pressure. Also it is a question of many years hard work with a goal to bring an athlete into top condition (= all difficult jumps mastered) at the time of the Olympic season and Olympics. It is not a question of some chance.