Should skaters be required to train for SOME time in their home country?

[Lark]

This was brought to my attention on another thread by miracleglo (I hope I got this right! :) )!

It has been a weird thing with me for years. I am not tooooo angry about it, but up in the air.

Does anyone feel that a skater/team should be required to live/reside/train for some amount of time in the country they represent to be eligible to represent that country?

I would say "yes" if I had a say.

If you live in America, train in America, and visit Russia for 3 weeks out of the year, you are essentially "American", in resources, training, sub-culture, etc.

I think, and again this is my opinion, that foreign teams should be required to spend a minimum of 16 weeks residing in the country they represent.

Heck, it seemed like for a while, all the Olympic Golds were going to residents of New England! LOLOLOL

Heck, if you don't want to live there, or if it is not a place you are capable of living/training, why represent them?

Opinions? And keep it civil please. :)

[phoenix]

The thing is, they're going where the coaches are. Or in some cases a partner. So if you want them in a certain country, you'd have to require that the coaches live there too. My coach is Russian, who's been in the States for several years now. When he finished competing, he went back to Russia, intending to coach, but quickly found out he could not make a living if he stayed there--so he came back. So what can you do? That's why so many of the Russian coaches are in the States now. And that's exactly why the Russian skaters are here too. It's not the skater saying, "hey, I think I'll go live in the U.S.!!" It's the skater saying, "hey, I'm going to work with Frank Carroll!"

[stardust skies]

I know it's impossible, but I've always thought the athlete and coach should be from the same country, and that should be the country they represent- doesn't really matter where they live or train, but where they were born and hold citizenship from. A rink is just a sheet of ice- it doesn't really affect who becomes a champion and who does not. It's the people who make it happen, and their countries should get recognition for their own.

Representing the U.S. and winning a medal for us is great if you're a U.S. citizen, but I've always found it unfair if a coach from a different country is the one that helped you get there, and that country gets nothing. Russia must feel a little cheated at the U.S. medals its coaches help win, and vice versa. As a skater I would hate the prospect to be limited to U.S. coaches only, but in all fairness, I think the skater and the coach should represent the same country.

In a smaller spectrum, I also think it shouldn't be allowed for skaters who do not have a primary residence in a certain state to represent a club from said state, which is known to be done in order to pick and choose which Regionals they'll do best in. The only exceptions should be if the skater is going away to college or something, but still has a home in his original region. But far too many skaters compete for the wrong Regionl; it's not right, even if it brings some needed competition to the less skating-oriented areas of the country.

[sceptique]

Very difficult subject indeed, and not just in figure skating. Many Russian tennis fans feel resentful about Sharapova for being not a "truly Russian athlete".

You know, in my opinion, when we talk about a particular nationality being "good" at some sport - we take into account a number of factors:
a. pure genetic abilities that tend to concentrate in some areas more than others, a sort of "athletic stereotype": Chinese are short and limber, Africans are good runners, Nordic people are tall and strong etc.;
b. “school”, which includes coaching talent, training methodologies etc.
c. infrastructure: places to train, equipment etc.
d. “mentality”: a set of values and beliefs, inherited from your parents and community, as well as developed while you grow up. A few days ago we had a chat with my friend about figure skating, and I noted that 3 nations that tend to dominate there – Americans, Japanese and Russians – have one thing in common: a maniacal, almost self-destructive tenacity when it comes to pursuing something they care about.

Genetics is set, but this is probably the least nation-specific factor: over the course of history all nations proved to be capable of producing top athletes. Mentality is also something that is very unlikely to change when you change your place of residence, and the older you are when it happens, the less so. After five years in UK I’m still, in essence, a foreigner who integrated into the host culture successfully enough to live and work there, but still carries along her native accent and indestructible habit of browsing through Russian websites and chat boards on her lunch break.

So, it leaves us with “school” and “infrastructure” – these two things, I agree, can vary from country to country to a great degree. Yet, if an opportunity to pick and choose a training base is available to all athletes equally, this sort of levels out the playing field, does it not? If a US coach trains a Japanese, Canadian & Russian skater who then go and compete against each other in Olympics, it makes it a competition of skaters, not coaches, and that is where genetics and mentality become the primary factors for determining the winner. After all, most elite athletes still spend their formative years in their home country, and this is where they reach the standard that then allows them to decide where they want to keep training. I understand the frustration: “they use our resources then they beat us at Olympics”, or “she never been to Farlandstan since she was 9, and she dares to claim that she represents the country and it’s people!”, yet I strongly believe that this is up to the athlete to decide which country s/he belongs to.

On a personal level, if I ever get the guts to go and compete at Oberstdorf, I will most certainly list myself as a UK skater, despite the fact, that one of my coaches is Russian and the school where I train belongs to a Russian couple (and, yes, not mentioning the fact that I’m Russian myself!); and that would be mostly due to the fact that Russian skating federation does nothing to promote adult skating – anything I achieved or will achieve in this sport as an adult skater is thanks to the opportunities provided by UK NISA (including the opportunity to be trained by a very professional coach who also speaks my native language!). But I think that another person, who in similar circumstances would have chosen to represent Russia, should be allowed to do so. This is a highly personal decision, and any attempts to regulate it will not settle the debates and will only make it more traumatic for the athletes, who should really concentrate on their skating, above all.

I just want to say, that if you force, say, Chinese skater to spend 3 months each year in China, she might either take her coach with her or pick 3 months that coincide with off-season, just to satisfy formal requirements. I don’t see how that would benefit sport as a whole, to be honest. By handicapping the athletes that weren’t so lucky to be born in an economically prosperous country? The fact that they go and train in US is already a good evidence of the strength of US school and infrastructure, and you guys should be really proud of that – as a result, your coaches get international recognition, your rinks get money and publicity, your home skaters get an opportunity to train alongside strong international peers. Those who feel they owe more to their host country than to their home land will eventually apply for citizenship, like Belbin, and represent their host. Others will remain loyal to their place of birth – and let them be so. As if we are not having enough cultural/national controversies in the world already! Really, I always thought that the purpose of sport is to unite nations, not the other way around. A bit too romantic, perhaps.

[angelskates]

Russia must feel a little cheated at the U.S. medals its coaches help win, and vice versa. As a skater I would hate the prospect to be limited to U.S. coaches only, but in all fairness, I think the skater and the coach should represent the same country.

If Russia felt cheated enough wouldn't they make it easier for Russian coaches to make a living in Russia??

Very interesting topic....the 16 weeks thing is good in theory, but would you like to change coaches for 16 weeks?? What if your home country is not a country where figure skating is well represented and doesn't have top coaches? Or if the ice is so expensive or there just aren't the facilities?

There are a lot of things that come into play.

[sceptique]

If Russia felt cheated enough wouldn't they make it easier for Russian coaches to make a living in Russia??


Or, more likely, reintroduce exit visas from "iron curtain" times and not let any decent coach to get one? :frus:

Seriously, guys, people emigrate for a number of reasons, not just because of harsh conditions at home. Living in another country is a very soul-enriching experience, it changes your whole perspective and affects you as a person on a number of levels. If in the process you can make some extra cash - good for you, but the truth is, it's more difficult to make a great career in a foreign country, not other way around (with the exceptions of some professions with a really huge pay disparity between countries, i.e. medical doctors), and anyone who manages to do so is worth of praise, not contempt.

Should I feel cheated that Tarasova coaches Michelle Kwan? You must be joking! If anything, it makes me only more proud for Russian coaching tradition, not less. One has two choices - either to see people who left home country to work elsewhere as "traitors" or to see them as ambassadors of their home country and traditions. There is a very thin line between patriotism and nationalism, and we all very well know what happens then the latter overcomes the former.

[phoenix]

I just want to say, that if you force, say, Chinese skater to spend 3 months each year in China, she might either take her coach with her or pick 3 months that coincide with off-season, just to satisfy formal requirements. I don’t see how that would benefit sport as a whole, to be honest. By handicapping the athletes that weren’t so lucky to be born in an economically prosperous country? The fact that they go and train in US is already a good evidence of the strength of US school and infrastructure, and you guys should be really proud of that – as a result, your coaches get international recognition, your rinks get money and publicity, your home skaters get an opportunity to train alongside strong international peers. Those who feel they owe more to their host country than to their home land will eventually apply for citizenship, like Belbin, and represent their host. Others will remain loyal to their place of birth – and let them be so. As if we are not having enough cultural/national controversies in the world already! Really, I always thought that the purpose of sport is to unite nations, not the other way around. A bit too romantic, perhaps.

I think you summed it up perfectly!! We are living in an ever-expanding global society, & I for one am very glad to have the experience of knowing someone who's not a native of my own country. We Americans are way too sheltered & unaware of the world as it is.

[angelskates]

Originally Posted by sceptique
I just want to say, that if you force, say, Chinese skater to spend 3 months each year in China, she might either take her coach with her or pick 3 months that coincide with off-season, just to satisfy formal requirements. I don’t see how that would benefit sport as a whole, to be honest. By handicapping the athletes that weren’t so lucky to be born in an economically prosperous country?

I'm not sure why you use China as an example. I live and skate (for fun, but still seriously!) in Beijing (and am not Chinese). The ice here is 1000 times better and also much cheaper than my home country (Australia), and the coaching is cheaper too (not that the Chinese team pays for coaching).

Chinese skaters are also paid by the association (when they stay in China, though I think they are allowed a certain amount of time to train overseas and still have the Chinese association pay). A very decent amount too. Even my coach, who wasn't ever a "top" skater got paid 6000 RMB a month(US$740) when she was on the "Chinese team", she had her family's rent subsidised as well, and no skating related fees (coaching, ice, skates.) That's a fortune here.

The Chinese skaters are given incentives (money, among other things - Olympians sometimes are given HOUSES) to stay in China and train and the facilities here (as in the main rink the Chinese team trains at) is excellent. They don't have to stay here, but they sure get a good deal if they do!

Chinese coaches are allowed to go overseas and coach, but they most likely wouldn't. Coaching is seen as a very prestigious (albeit, not very highly paid, it's certainly not low pay either, WAY above average, and good bonuses if your skaters do well).

[phoenix]

I think Skeptique picked China at random, but I'm glad because your reply is very enlightening! If all countries worked w/ their coaches & skaters like that, then I'm sure we wouldn't even be having this discussion! btw, that's how it used to work in Russia. When my coach was 14, he was making more from his skating training than his parents. Of course that was under the Soviet system, which isn't what I'm suggesting it reverts to......

[Lark]

If Russia felt cheated enough wouldn't they make it easier for Russian coaches to make a living in Russia??

Very interesting topic....the 16 weeks thing is good in theory, but would you like to change coaches for 16 weeks?? What if your home country is not a country where figure skating is well represented and doesn't have top coaches? Or if the ice is so expensive or there just aren't the facilities?

There are a lot of things that come into play.

That is partially my point.

If your country is unable to produce champions, why should they get the medals to show that they did?

To me, it would be like a student attending Yale for 6 years and getting a dregree from Harvard. Why should Harvard get the recognition?

The reverse goes into Americans representing other countries because they can't cut it in America.

For example, has that Italian skater (from New York, am I correct??), Sylvia Fontana, ever lived and trained in Italy? I truly do not know.

[Isk8NYC]

Sylvia may have resided in Italy at times. I remember reading an article in the NY Times Magazine a few years ago. Her tragic past (losing one or both parents - I don't remember) would be considered extenuating circumstances, however. My gut feeling is that she TRAINS here regularly, returning to Italy for competitions.



A relevant quote from www.icecalc.de (http://www.icecalc.de/):

Fontana is the long-time girl friend of U.S. pair skater John Zimmermann. Fontana was born in the USA but grew up in Italy. Her father built an ice rink for her in Italy. Later, she moved back to the USA to train there.


There are many elite skaters who live/train/study here in the US, yet they represent their/their parents' home countries. Why? It could be less competition, lack of facilities, or fear of persecution. Different countries have different qualification rules. Obviously, the US asks you to be a citizen if you're going to the Olympics for us.
It's probably easier to pursue skating here in the US, and that gives these "expatriot" skaters an unfair advantage over their "home country" competitors that are also pursuing the home nation's glory.

[loveskating]

If you live in America, train in America, and visit Russia for 3 weeks out of the year, you are essentially "American", in resources, training, sub-culture, etc.

I'd be opposed totally to your rule.

The "resources" used to be American...now the oil (heats the rink, and fills your car) is from Venezuela, the iron ore is from South America, made into steel (skate blades, Zamboni, etc.) all over the world...to make a long story short, basically, in America we have service industries and only the msot advanced, high tech industrial products made here so its actually AMERICANS who use the resources of others, and probably not on a very fair trading basis, either. You can google this, but just look at the labels of almost everything you buy...the economy is global!

So, I'd say this argument is made by folks who just like spitting in the wind????


---------
We in the "real" world out here have to face competition from immigrants all the time -- trust me, it doesn't work to fight it, you have to be as good or better is all.

[Lark]

I'd be opposed totally to your rule.

The "resources" used to be American...now the oil (heats the rink, and fills your car) is from Venezuela, the iron ore is from South America, made into steel (skate blades, Zamboni, etc.) all over the world...to make a long story short, basically, in America we have service industries and only the msot advanced, high tech industrial products made here so its actually AMERICANS who use the resources of others, and probably not on a very fair trading basis, either. You can google this, but just look at the labels of almost everything you buy...the economy is global!


If it is so "global", then why must all the skaters come to America to get it? LOLOL
I am not attacking anyones trade rules, you can start your own Topic on that.
I was wanting to know others stands on rules of training, citizenship and eligibilty, etc.

[tdnuva]

Sorry, but I think your view is a tad TOO American centred. Yes, there are many training bases for figure skating in the US. But there are also Canadians training in Lyon cause their coach is there. Kostner (ITA) and Lambiel (CH) training in Germany (at least partly) cause there is a great training center and in Kostner's case her own ice rink was destroyed by natural desaster. Skaters joining partners from other countries in dance or pairs is quite common now. Mainly cause matching partners is not THAT easy and from a certain level on your choices are limited. You can oppose this skating globalism in general, but I doubt the US would benefit from the restriction. They would probably lose a lot of high level skating in the US cause like TAT and Vassilive more might go "home"....

Some countries with few or none skating facilities probably would be erased from the fs map. Which would be sad for the individual skaters, but also sad for the variety and colorfulness of skating.

And besides the practical effects - I think it would reenforce the nationalism that was always too much for my taste. I know that the US is strong about nationalism but it gets on my nerves very much. If Jeff Buttle skates well I am glad for him cause I like his style, but that does not change my view of Canada. If Jeff Weir skates all the same all the time, I do critic that, but it has nothing to do with the US as a country. Skating is an individual sport and I would rather stress the efforts, strengths and weaknesses of the skaters instead of stressing their origin. If at all, you have an advantage or disadvantage if you come from a certain country, simply cause your country has more or less facilities to skate. But if your skating later in your career is better organised or possible somewhere else... so what. Other professions change country, too, if it's a better opportunity. That's life. And we don't life in the middle ages but in the 21st century which is - by fact - a global life.....

[LTM]

Takeski Honda has trained in Canada for how long now? Most of his competitve career I think? Does it bug this Canadian when he wins. No.
Does he have to spend some arbitrary amount of time in Japan (and exactly what would be that amount of time would be set by who exactly) No, I don't
care if he just flies over the place once in a while.
He's a citizen of Japan and that's the way it is. If he wanted to be a Canadian he'd have done the paperwork by now.
Length of time in any country does not make you that country's citizen.

[babyballerina]

Obviously, the US asks you to be a citizen if you're going to the Olympics for us.


No they don't. It's IOC who makes the rules regarding the Olympics. To represent a country at the Olympics one has to be a citizen of that country. This isn't the case for Worlds, or any other competition. That's why Tanith Belbin can go to worlds representing the USA but not (as the current situation stands) to the Olympics.


If you live in America, train in America, and visit Russia for 3 weeks out of the year, you are essentially "American", in resources, training, sub-culture, etc.
But the thing is, you're not. As others have testified on this page, no-one moves to another country and instantly integrates with that country, changes their way of thinking and living and 100% forgets their native culture.

In other sports there are Americans who train in other countries (I'm thinking of the premier league in England in particular. There are a few US players there.) but are still allowed to represent the US in the Olympics and world championships. Would you expel them?

[crayonskater]

It would lead to some weird results if people had to represent the country they trained in. Many of the top skaters train in the U.S.; it wouldn't be inconceivable that we would have an American Olympic team with no Americans (or that other countries would be sending their second and third tier, while two Russians and a Japanese skater represent the U.S. and win.) Or that France would be represented by Canadian skaters training in Lyon, and Germany would be represented by Kostner.

Citizenship is a lot more than just who you compete for. It's not a decision that is made lightly. Making a skater go home seems to be a heavy burden for an already expensive sport.

Plus, the tone of this argument is like it's what, unfair that the coaches came here? Wouldn't it be more unfair (as happened under Communism) to restrict their movement and career? Unfair that the skaters spend a lot of money on U.S. facilities and then compete somewhere else? If the USFSA were sponsoring them, there might be a legitimate complaint here, but they're not stealing anyone's coaches, ice time, or championships here.

[Lark]

A lot of people have brought up good points. That was the point of my topic.

I am glad we are able to bring these thoughts up and able to keep it relatively civil.

I am on the fence. I would prefer that Russians train in Russia, Americans in America, etc., for SOME part, but I do realize it is not being done, for the MOST part, and it will not change my faves or my love of the sport.

[babyballerina]

Unfair that the skaters spend a lot of money on U.S. facilities and then compete somewhere else? If the USFSA were sponsoring them, there might be a legitimate complaint here, but they're not stealing anyone's coaches, ice time, or championships here.

Indeed skaters contribute to the economy of their host country, as do their coaches.

[loveskating]

Resources are precisely global now...that was my point. You spoke of "foreign" skaters taking advantage of American resources, i.e. the rinks, and the general superstructure supporting them...those are no longer "made in America" is all...just facts.