Is the quad "worth it"?

[pondskater]

Just finished watching the Men on the Marshall's Challenge on TV, where both Evan and Johnny attempted quads and then missed their triple axels. Evan wondered in the interview whether the quad attempt was "worth it". Johnny, especially, has had great success without it, and the new Code of Points favors the spins, footwork, flow, etc. that both Evan, Johnny and Emmanuel have in spades. So why is so much time and energy going into the quad???
Do what you do best, guys , and leave the quad for the others to miss! What does everyone else think?
Also, how about ABC leaving out Michael W and Tim G and showing the ladies warmup???

[Hydroblade]

Well i have to agree about the quad being 'worth it'.

The new code of points system allows more points to the best all around skater that can dish it out.
I don't believe that the quad will make so that you can win(it could help) but it won't allow you to win if you can't spin or skate in general.

Oh and there are ways around the quad such as doing a triple,triple,triple combination is worth more points that a single quad.

But since nowadays you have to hand in a program content sheet telling what you will be doing and when you would probly get a bigger deduction for doing that that doing a fallen planned quad on your sheet. Hard to say really......

[Mel On Ice]

I liked the quad at first, when it was novel, exciting and balanced with a great program. But after watching so many skaters ruin a great program for one rotation, I don't think it's worth it. And there's more to a program than the jumps.

[skateflo]

Yes, the quad was unique when first done on a regular basis and it did push the sport, but when it became the focus and the rest of the skating suffered, it lost its appeal to me. The jumps still are the focus of commentators, the audience (listen to the applause for jumps and nil for anything else) and the skaters.

I also object to the highly flexible skater (Sasha split spiral - Nicole Bobek used it regularly.) The true champagne glass spiral has been lost. Not all bodies can do these gymnastic moves and why should they be penalized?

As for the men that were chacked - hmmmm, I wonder if ABC producers think the general public (who they are trying to woo) only want to see the Ladies. From reports from the actual competition, the men's event was a splatfast. Actually I did like the commentary during the warm-up except for repeatedly noting it was the jumps that they all were doing......

It is hard to appreciate the choreography and utilization of the ice surface if the camera is always doing a close-up! That is where Eurosport excels.

[loveskating]

Well, the rules are not likely to change.

And it wasn't a splatfest in the men's event at Campbells because of the quad...they fell most of all on the 3 axel. Its early in the season, they have been working on the choreography and not training the jumps as they will have to.

Plushenko has several quads, and is a masterful skater...without a quad, one is able to only rely on the possiblity that Pluwhenko will make mistakes. In a clean skate, he is unbeatable unless you have a quad.

Jobert blew it at Worlds, but he is still a formidable and IMHO a great skater...with several quads. The Chinese? Forget about it

[doubletoe]

Eventually, all of the top men need to try to get a quad because it is becoming more and more necessary (just like triples have become). Strategically, Evan was smart to try the quad in this competition just to get the "first time" under his belt before attempting it in a competition that's actually important. He'll never have to do it for the first time again, and that will make it less nerve-wracking when it's time to go for it at Nationals or the Olympics.

[Artemis]

Eventually, all of the top men need to try to get a quad because it is becoming more and more necessary (just like triples have become). Strategically, Evan was smart to try the quad in this competition just to get the "first time" under his belt before attempting it in a competition that's actually important. He'll never have to do it for the first time again, and that will make it less nerve-wracking when it's time to go for it at Nationals or the Olympics.

I agree with your assessment of Evan's strategy -- it's the same one that most men attempting the quad employ.

However I disagree with the statement that the quad is becoming "more and more necessary." Since COP, it's actually become less of a factor, the LP in particular. A quad is still worth more points than any triple jump, of course, but because it now has a definite assigned value it's more possible now to win without a quad if you've done the math and do your other jumps well. For example: a 3ax + 3toe combo is worth more than a 4toe, or even more than a 4toe + 2toe combo -- 10.5 points vs. 9 points vs. 10.3 points.

(Edited to add: many men, esp. those "with quad," have complained that the COP doesn't adequately reward the risk of doing a quad.)

There are skaters out there who are capable in theory (e.g., Eman) or practice (e.g., Plushy) of doing jump-loaded programs with quads and all the other stuff that wracks up the in-between points. But the most successful skaters last year were by and large the ones who had "everything but" the quad, and got their leads from their attention to all the fine details and nuances of their programs, and to skating relatively clean with the triples they do do.

So, to answer the original question, I'd say that for men who are comfortable doing the quad consistently, and particularly for those that have shortcomings in other areas of their skating, the quad continues to be "worth it." But for someone who isn't consistent in landing the quad, a clean and well-balanced program will take them much further -- not to mention be much more enjoyable for us!

[loveskating]

Well, most of the skaters who have quads do not fall on them. IMHO the 3 axel is still the most treacherous jump.

Everone used to have to have a 3 axel/3 toe loop but now many do not have that combination, no matter what its worth, which is more than a quad.

There will always be something to infuriate fans of some skater....Paul Wylie had a lot of trouble with the 3 axel, never mind the 3 axel/3 toe loop...but Stojko did not nor did Kulik later or Yagudin....there will always be something that makes fans of one skater upset, but that cannot govern skating.

Me, as far as I'm concerned, if a guy wants to win, he has to match his competitors, otherwise, he is relying on his competitors to ALL make mistakes, and that is not the best strategy unless you only have one competitor...and unless, of course, you do not make mistakes.

[crayonskater]

In terms of points, if you can pull off a 3-3-3 or a 3axel + something, you have more points than a quad. Doing that doesn't require someone to make a mistake, since you have a higher start value.

That said, if you can get a quad relatively easily, might as well. (If you can do that and a bunch of combinations, you'll be unstoppable.) But it's not just choreography to consider; the time spent on the quad might well be spent garnering points here and there in spins or footwork, with less impact on the body.

Better to shore up your 3-3s and spins, imo, especially if you're not close to getting the quad.

[loveskating]

Yes, the quad was unique when first done on a regular basis and it did push the sport, but when it became the focus and the rest of the skating suffered, it lost its appeal to me. The jumps still are the focus of commentators, the audience (listen to the applause for jumps and nil for anything else) and the skaters.

I also object to the highly flexible skater (Sasha split spiral - Nicole Bobek used it regularly.) The true champagne glass spiral has been lost. Not all bodies can do these gymnastic moves and why should they be penalized?


I don't think that Kulik's LP in 98 suffered for lack of choreography due to the quad, nor Yagudin's various great programs (Lawrence of Arabia is my fave). Plushenko's programs are masterful, whether they move you or not, and have great choreography and he has great presentation.

Of all the kids who sign up for skating lessons and pursue competitive skating, not all bodies can do single jumps, and still fewer can do 2 jumps, and very very few can do 3 jumps. Do you object? Would you prefer we go back to the 2 jumps?

A great antidote to the damage the quad and 3/3 combos to to skaters would be to stop this "longevity" demand from uberfanish fans!

[icedancer2]

A great antidote to the damage the quad and 3/3 combos to to skaters would be to stop this "longevity" demand from uberfanish fans!

You know -- you are right with a lot of this -- but it is the uberfanish fans that are demanding this trend towards longevity (which I actually find quite boring...) or the skating federations, or the people who stand to make a lot of money off of these "stars" and the stars themselves.

Like I said before, I am truly sad for our sport at this point.

Good luck to all of the skaters!!

[Kelli]

You know -- you are right with a lot of this -- but it is the uberfanish fans that are demanding this trend towards longevity (which I actually find quite boring...) or the skating federations, or the people who stand to make a lot of money off of these "stars" and the stars themselves.

Like I said before, I am truly sad for our sport at this point.

Good luck to all of the skaters!!

Right, and without the longevity our sport becomes gymnastics where Joe Public can't follow the competition because it's a new crop of athletes every year or so. The fact that Joe Public recognizes the name "Michelle Kwan" or any other skater and may even be able to put a name to a face helps the sport more than additional quads or triple-triples would.

[crayonskater]

But there's nothing changing the nature of the sport yet, just its marketing. Unless you count the CoP as a nod to Joe Public, but I think its emphasis on innovation and on spins and footwork is good for the sport.

There's no one saying that the sport should be made easy so singles count as much as triples, but if success in the sport means you have to start at age 5, be washed up by age 15, and over the hill at 25, not only is it not going to develop a fan base (which helps fund the sport and the programs), there will be a lot fewer skaters joining, and less ability to watch skating on TV.

To the extent that the sport includes more than jumping, and to the extent that less of a focus on jumping will allow for better rivalries, that's good. But if the sport is about having your 3-3 by age 12, developing an eating disorder by 16, there won't be as much interest. More focus on edgework, spirals, spins, and artistry allows for more longevity in the sport.

[MusicSkateFan]

uh...Plushenko does not have several quads....he has one..the 4t. Only a few skaters have demonstrated other quads like the 4s and I guess Weiss has a 4z...although he has NEVER landed it in comp. I hear there is a Japanese lady who has a 4L....wow!

I say if it is clean...great to have the quad....dont do it if you can't land it on a regular basis!

sort of like my 1z,half loop,1f combo!

[loveskating]

Right, and without the longevity our sport becomes gymnastics where Joe Public can't follow the competition because it's a new crop of athletes every year or so. The fact that Joe Public recognizes the name "Michelle Kwan" or any other skater and may even be able to put a name to a face helps the sport more than additional quads or triple-triples would.

It would seem that people followed precisely the competition, as opposed to one hyped skater, for a long time; ratings for last Worlds would indicate that people do not follow one skater for 9 or 10 years!

As a child, my family, American with no "mother country" to refer to, and as mainstream and working class as the characters in "Cutting Edge" was, were NEVER like ABC assumes people are.

Sure, I was and we were proud when, say, Peggy Fleming was actually the best and won, but we also loved the Protopopovs (as a kid, I actually thought they were so remarkable that they must be from Mars) and others.

I do not recall one time my mom said, 'Oh. let's watch Peggy on television!" She always said, "Let's watch skating on television."

[crayonskater]

Well, for one, having a recognizable name helps with marketing to the casual fan. (Remember all those empty seats you saw?) This shouldn't be read as 'Figure skating will die without MK!' but as look, it's more interesting for the casual fan to watch someone win nationals, worlds, and the Olympics rather than for some unknown to put in one great performance and run off with the gold.

Because figure skating isn't extremely popular, the average fan probably doesn't see much more than Worlds and the Olympics, and having names around helps. Longevity helps with the names. Will Katarina win a second gold? Will Michelle repeat as World champion? Will this be Sasha's year?

Most sports don't have a new crop of athletes every year. The popular sports have people with decades-long careers. Gymnastics is the only one with a shorter shelf life than skating. Someone like Svetlana Khorkina, who did three Olympics, is a rarity and is a fun story.

Now, I wouldn't want to require only single jumps so everyone could have long careers, but I think that some attention should be paid to longevity. Not for marketing, but mostly for the development of the sport. If your body is abused by the time you're 14, you're never going to develop the artistry that will happen as you mature.

[loveskating]

Well, hopfully the marketers that USFSA has hired will be professional and tell USFSA the truth about all this.

But to me its obvious that skating competitions are very demanding on skating fans...you need to take a vacation, really, to go to one.

Now we have Skate America (and its equivalent in other countries), US Nationals, GP Finals and Worlds -- its too much. IMHO GP Finals OR Worlds has to go.

In my opinion, hyping a skater works for pro skating, but it does not work for competitions, and that is what the USFSA does.

[Kelli]

Should we really make the sport hostage to Joe Public?

You say this "helps the sport," I think it hurts the sport incredibly to rely more on the marketability than the competition. Figure Skating ceases to be a sport when considerations outside competition are considered. If the ratings take a hit, so what. You don't see Curling changing the nature of the sport to attract crowds do you?

I don't want Joe Public to dictate the direction the sport heads in, but I want Joe Public to have enough interest in skating to actually WATCH it on tv and keep it on the air. When Joe Public loses interest and ratings drop (further), all skating events will get less tv time. And yes, it sucks that we have to work around Joe Public and the networks, but it's not much good to hold all these international competitions if we don't actually get a chance to see them!

[doubletoe]

Joe Public is why we have professional skating and the televised cheesefests.
Amateur skating needs to stay true to its goal of pushing the boundaries of the sport, whether Joe Public is interested or not.