MK out of Skate America--injury! [Archive]

Debbie S

10-06-2005, 05:59 PM

Must be from all those triple-triples she's practicing.
Gee, NoVa, what did Michelle ever do to you? (Exactly what does that icon mean, anyway? I've never seen it.)

Well, as a ticketholder for the Ladies FS event at SA, I'm bummed about this on a number of levels. I know MK's come back from injuries to blow everyone away before (98 Nats) but I worry that she's not going to have the opportunity to get her programs judged with CoP before Nats. I know the release said she's hoping to do her second GP event, but that seems a bit too optimistic if it's going to take her a month to recover from this.

NoVa Sk8r

10-06-2005, 06:55 PM

I love da Kween; she's one of my faves. (check out my profile).
The icon is a headbanger, as in she rocks.

But we often hear about how she is working on her 3-3's but they seem to materialize. I want to see 'em this season.

I loved how Dick Button chewed her out at last May's http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/cheese.gif-fest.
After one of the broadcaster's mentioned that MK was working on the 3-3, Uncle Button became, well, indignant (http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/flamethrower.gif), and asked why she wasn't trying them in her programs. A reasonable query, methinks. http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/bananadevil.gif

If MK has been working on the 3-3, then hurray! http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/bravo.gif

But who knows what MK has been doing this summer http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/dunno.gif--I've not read any credible reports. http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/sherlock.gif

Debbie S

10-06-2005, 07:05 PM

Hmmm...somebody sure went icon-happy. :?? :)

Thanks for the clarification on your post. I, too, wish Michelle would put at least 1 3-3 in her program. But we also need to remember that CoP also values other elements, maybe even more so than 3-3s - like spin combinations, footwork sequences, and spirals. This is where MK got killed at Worlds last year, IMO, not so much with the jumps. I just hope she and TT put together a well-rounded program...and of course, a 3-3 wouldn't hurt, but not at the expense of the other elements in her program.

Terri C

10-06-2005, 08:29 PM

Geez, what happened to staying in shape so you don't get these injuries?
:roll:

I just hope MK has a better long program this season than last year's "Borelero".

icedancer2

10-06-2005, 08:42 PM

"Borelero". LOL I hadn't thought of this before! :bow:

jazzpants

10-06-2005, 08:57 PM

Geez, what happened to staying in shape so you don't get these injuries?
:roll:

I just hope MK has a better long program this season than last year's "Borelero".Kinda hard to do that if you're doing triple-triple on an Olympic year. And I am not surprised about the hip injury if she is trying for 3/3 since I've remember reading "somewhere on the net" that for the longest time that she was doing "3/2/2" combos b/c her hip couldn't take "3/3" combo... (Or am I remembering this wrong here?)

Anyway, OUCH, NOVA!!! That first smiley on the first post of this thread is REALLY hurting my eyes!!! http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/sillyroll.gif

NoVa Sk8r

10-06-2005, 09:19 PM

Anyway, OUCH, NOVA!!! That first smiley on the first post of this thread is REALLY hurting my eyes!!! http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/sillyroll.gifSorry, didn't mean to make you http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/tired.gif and http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/stars.gif
Tee hee ... http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/pP.gif

loveskating

10-11-2005, 08:19 AM

Why does this not surprise me? :frus:

:giveup:

ROFL! In any case, since one cannot know, be satisfied that an injury is claimed. After three consecutive years of thumbing her Diva nose at all the other competitors and opting out of seasonal competition, while PHil Hersch claimed no one should go to events in figure skating if Kwan was not there, this is a huge advance for figure skating.
;)

yvettedeena

10-11-2005, 01:54 PM

ROFL! In any case, since one cannot know, be satisfied that an injury is claimed. After three consecutive years of thumbing her Diva nose at all the other competitors and opting out of seasonal competition,

She most likely didn't claim to be injured before because well, she wasn't injured. And unless I am very mistaken, she broke no rules by opting out of seasonal competition, did she? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

while PHil Hersch claimed no one should go to events in figure skating if Kwan was not there, this is a huge advance for figure skating.
;)

Perhaps it would help if you looked upon Phil Hersch's claims as opinion, which they are, and not fact.

icedancer2

10-11-2005, 02:34 PM

She most likely didn't claim to be injured before because well, she wasn't injured. And unless I am very mistaken, she broke no rules by opting out of seasonal competition, did she? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

What about that letter that the ISU sent out last year stating that if seeded skaters opted out of any of the GP SEries events, it had to be because of documented medical/injury related problems if they wanted to still be eligible to skate at Worlds?

Or was it that they couldn't skate at cheesefests (non-real competitions like Campbells) and then opt out of GP SEries events because of injuries or other unrelated excuses?

Something like that. :giveup:

lilwish

10-11-2005, 03:36 PM

where are the posts about how this is terrible for Michelle, who is finally doing what her critics have been saying she should do.

The hatred and animosity toward her amaze me. I find it disgusting.

yvettedeena

10-11-2005, 04:06 PM

What about that letter that the ISU sent out last year stating that if seeded skaters opted out of any of the GP SEries events, it had to be because of documented medical/injury related problems if they wanted to still be eligible to skate at Worlds?

Or was it that they couldn't skate at cheesefests (non-real competitions like Campbells) and then opt out of GP SEries events because of injuries or other unrelated excuses?

Something like that. :giveup:

Yes, the second one, and most people thought it was mainly because Plushenko pulled out of his GP's because of injury and then was going to skate in a cheesefest which was scheduled on the same day.

Also, that letter was sent to the Federations after Michelle competed in her cheesefest and after she said she was not competiting in the GPs. Lastly, from my understanding that letter was not a rule that was instituted for last year but a complaint to the Federations. Therefore, unless I am misunderstanding, she broke no rules.

Michigansk8er

10-11-2005, 04:09 PM

Here's a link to the letter: http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/articles/isu-letter-592.pdf

Schmeck

10-11-2005, 05:01 PM

That's a real letter? It sounded so childish - is the ISU really that juvenile?

Schmeck

10-11-2005, 08:08 PM

Michelle Kwan has been skating on the senior level, in international competitions for how many years? And how many injuries has she had?

Tessie

10-11-2005, 08:19 PM

yvettedeena

10-11-2005, 08:30 PM

Could you please cite the norms? Last major (or any injury) I recall was the stress fracture in the fall of 1997. She had a cast up to her knee through Christmas. If every eight years is a "norm", I still don't see a pattern forming.

:lol:

Off-topic - you have my mother's name :)

Tapper

10-12-2005, 12:03 AM

Well, she DID sit out last year's GPs with an injury. Two years in a row is a bit of a trend. Remember how she came back at the Winter fluff skating horridly (perhaps the worst performance I've ever seen her give)? She wasn't the only one to skate bad there, she wasn't the only one injured, but she most certainly was injured last fall if I'm to trust my lying eyes and ears where her press releases are concerned.

I don't think that a second year makes it a "trend"... and to suit my purposes, I looked for a definition of "trend" - just googled it. There were many, of course... but the general emphasis is that it is based on data collected over time. In any case,I chose a definition that would suggest that a second year of injury at the start of the season does not make it a trend.

a pattern of change over time in some variable of interest. Having trend data for some variable implies multiple instances of that variable. For example, one revolution in Africa is an event; two or three revolutions would call for comparative case studies; fifteen revolutions in countries in Africa within five years would constitute a trend. One of the most obvious, and largest trends, is the increase in world population. ...

I'm sure you could find a definition to suit your needs to prove that MK is showing a trend. I'll stick by the idea that a trend needs to be more than just two occasions over two years.

crayonskater

10-12-2005, 11:30 AM

I hope Michelle gets better soon!

Most elite skaters have had injuries; Cohen, Plushenko, Goebels, Weir off the top of my head, and that's just counting the injuries they've had while in the spotlight. It's a tough sport; if everyone retired due to chronic injury no one would ever make it to the Olympics. (How often has Sasha hurt her back?)

loveskating

10-12-2005, 02:35 PM

She didn't retire. :halo:

It's official, my first skating related post of the season. That post demanded snark though.

P.S. It doesn't really count if you can't do it without getting injured. At this point, injuries aren't exactly flukes for Michelle, they are more the norm than the exception.

I'm glad to see you back.

Yep. Like Stojko, or anyone else, once your body is in decline, you cannot even do what you used to do, much less do more...everry human being has to go through this.

I find it strange that the same people who complain of Tara's injuries now want Michelle to keep on skating and encourage her to "up" her techniical level, which amounts to the same thing through the back door -- until her body is equally busted!

What Michelle does not realize is that as soon as she is gone, they will coordinate themselves around someone else.

yvettedeena

10-12-2005, 03:23 PM

What Michelle does not realize is that as soon as she is gone, they will coordinate themselves around someone else.

Just out of curiousity, how do you know that Michelle does not realize this?

yvettedeena

10-12-2005, 03:26 PM

I'm glad to see you back.

Yep. Like Stojko, or anyone else, once your body is in decline, you cannot even do what you used to do, much less do more...everry human being has to go through this.

I find it strange that the same people who complain of Tara's injuries now want Michelle to keep on skating and encourage her to "up" her techniical level, which amounts to the same thing through the back door -- until her body is equally busted!

All injuries are not equal. Just because Tara's body is now "busted" certainly cannot mean that Michelle is in for the exact same fate.

loveskating

10-12-2005, 03:44 PM

All injuries are not equal. Just because Tara's body is now "busted" certainly cannot mean that Michelle is in for the exact same fate.

I certainly hope not.

However, the facts indicate that while all athletes risk injury, serious injury inlcuded, when any athlete competes at the highest level well beyond their physical peak, they risk injuries of a serious nature...just as surely as kids whose bones are not fully grown risk serious injury with those 3 jumps and especially in combination.

I just find it very strange that the same people who attack Tara's character for physically risking such serious injury, seem not to bat an eye when it comes to putting forward the idea that all these athletes (not just Michell) should compete till they literally cannot any more!

I think it would have been better if Michelle had retired...this has nothing to do with Sasha or Kimmie or Irina...only with Michelle and what I think would have been best for her and for skating.

Tapper

10-12-2005, 05:51 PM

Well, one might deduce from her non-participation for the other years prior as a sign of her lack of physical capability. Is four consecutive years a trend?

She went from one event filling a hole to missing two out of choice to missing out of minor injury to missing out of perhaps an even more significant injury than last year. It is not just a trend but an increasing trend.

Gee, Bondo, I don't know if 4 years is a trend or not. I thought you were talking specifically about her being out of the GP series because of injury, which would be the last year and this. If you are lumping her free choice to skip the GP with her having to miss the GP because of an injury - well, I probably wouldn't have thought to take you to task for that. However, you know, some people would... suggesting that missing the events due to injury and missing the events by choice are two different things. I don't know if you could prove that her missing the events by choice is a sign of physical inability, but I can see how someone might argue that.

Well, I hope she recovers fully and that she has a great season.

7302005

10-12-2005, 06:02 PM

oh goodie, the bickering begins.....

jazzpants

10-12-2005, 06:20 PM

oh goodie, the bickering begins.....Yeah, I know! I don't get how come something as small as "Hey, I'm injured and can't make it to SA" (along with the USFSA Sport Doctor (no less) behind her diagnose) can be miscontruded as 1) MK is trying to hide behind the "doctor's note" to get out of doing GP competitions and 2) that MK injuries are getting worse and worse and should consider retiring now from amateur competition...

Why can't we just wait for MK to get well and see what happened... :roll: (And Bondo, for heaven's sakes... if MK wants to finish up her (possibly last) year as an amateur skater, it's her choice whether or not to risk screwing up her back or not!!! She's a grown woman... ;) )

yvettedeena

10-12-2005, 06:51 PM

I certainly hope not.

However, the facts indicate that while all athletes risk injury, serious injury inlcuded, when any athlete competes at the highest level well beyond their physical peak, they risk injuries of a serious nature...just as surely as kids whose bones are not fully grown risk serious injury with those 3 jumps and especially in combination.

I just find it very strange that the same people who attack Tara's character for physically risking such serious injury, seem not to bat an eye when it comes to putting forward the idea that all these athletes (not just Michell) should compete till they literally cannot any more!

I think it would have been better if Michelle had retired...this has nothing to do with Sasha or Kimmie or Irina...only with Michelle and what I think would have been best for her and for skating.

As for Michelle retiring, I have to say I disagree on that point. I happen to like her skating for the most part and am not put out when she happens to skate progams that I don't find personally satisfying to me. In fact, I find that to be the case for all skaters. Just because they don't happen to skate the way I feel is best for them certainly doesn't mean I feel they need to retire. I think they should go when they are ready to go. I also don't quite understand why Michelle retiring would have been good for figure skating in general.

I just read a quote from Sasha over on FSU where she thinks Michelle has made her try to be a better skater and although when she was younger, had wished Michelle would retire, now has a much more mature outlook in that she feels Michelle pushes her and makes her a better skater. She also feels that winning Nats without beating Michelle would not be as satisfying as it would if Michelle were to retire before that happens.

NoVa Sk8r

10-12-2005, 09:20 PM

I've stated more explicitly before that I think one should retire when they clearly are not improving. Michelle may still be hanging in there in competitions, but she is a shadow of her former self and it is painful to watch because THIS is what I will remember of Michelle's skating. The further she goes, the less I'll remember when she had the best programs. I got a similar feeling watching Jerry Rice play the past couple years after he left the 49ers.Interesting points, but what I will remember is her being able to compete at the highest level of the sport for over a decade. Not many skaters can claim that. And even though her program at last year's Worlds was far from being CoP'ed (insert the reason why http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/thinking.gif http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/sherlock.gif ), she still finished 4th.

If skaters should retire when they are clearly not improving, then about half the eligible skaters should hang up their skates! http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/widegreen.gif

Novice Spirals

10-12-2005, 09:54 PM

Michelle has been criticized over the years for not doing triple/triples and I think she is now injured from practicing them. Tara Lipinski has the hip of an elderly woman and has basically faded into oblivion--She has her Olympic Gold medal, but long term, did she succeed?
Michelle is not a spring chicken in skating anymore and I think she realizes that she has to up the technical ante if she is going to make the Olympic team. I'd be willing to bet she has been practicing triple/triples to keep up with the Carolina Kostners and Kimmie Meissners that are chasing her. Sasha Cohen is in hot pursuit, also, and this may be her year.
Michelle is the most decorated U.S. skater in history and nothing can change that, but to many people (not me), she will be defined by her inability to win an Olympic Gold medal. We can only speculate what she really thinks about all of this.
I wish her a speedy recovery and I still am moved by her performances whenever I see her.
I'd give my right arm to skate like her for just one day. :bow:

Tapper

10-12-2005, 11:08 PM

I've stated more explicitly before that I think one should retire when they clearly are not improving. Michelle may still be hanging in there in competitions, but she is a shadow of her former self and it is painful to watch because THIS is what I will remember of Michelle's skating. The further she goes, the less I'll remember when she had the best programs. I got a similar feeling watching Jerry Rice play the past couple years after he left the 49ers.

I understand your point of view, though I don't share it. I wonder if Michelle has needed to "improve" all that much... that is, she has continued to win the National title and has been on the podium of major competitions except for last years Worlds... without the 3/3s. Seems to me that improving is one thing, holding the line once you get to the peak is another. I'm not an authority on skating so I can't tell if she has "stopped improving" or not - I do think that she has something that the other women can't touch, but that maybe has more to do with my taste than anything else.

I'm sure you can shoot lots of holes in what I just wrote. It's ok.

What I would love more than anything would be for MK to really skate well this season. However, I'll get along with what ever happens.

loveskating

10-13-2005, 07:45 AM

[QUOTE=yvettedeena]As for Michelle retiring, I have to say I disagree on that point. I happen to like her skating for the most part and am not put out when she happens to skate progams that I don't find personally satisfying to me. In fact, I find that to be the case for all skaters. Just because they don't happen to skate the way I feel is best for them certainly doesn't mean I feel they need to retire. I think they should go when they are ready to go. I also don't quite understand why Michelle retiring would have been good for figure skating in general. QUOTE]

Well, for most skaters, its not important to go out on a high note...for any great champion, it is...it goes with the territory.

Of course, its up to the skater, but the skating fans have a perfect right to respond as they see it.

Some skaters, like Stephen Cousins, Jennifer Robins etc. don't even have to make the podium internationally to skate professionally, so this stuff about an OGM as a ticket to whatever is absurd. Kwan does not need it at all, objectively.

MQSeries

10-13-2005, 11:33 AM

[QUOTE=yvettedeena]
Some skaters, like Stephen Cousins, Jennifer Robins etc. don't even have to make the podium internationally to skate professionally, so this stuff about an OGM as a ticket to whatever is absurd. Kwan does not need it at all, objectively.

It's rare for "unknown" skaters to have a prominent professional career without any sort of elegible titles. With Stephen Cousins, I'm sure that if he wasn't close friend with Scott, we would have never heard from him again after he retired from eligible competition.

I agree that MK doesn't need an OGM, but she wants it. The press will constantly asked her about missing the "big one". A portion of the public will also constantly remind her that she doesn't have the "big one". I want her to earn one just to shut everyone up :lol:

MK doesn't need to do a 3-3. She can just do one 3-2-2 and two 3-2s. I'm just hoping that TT has worked miracle for MK, and that we will see real choreography this year in the beginning, middle and end of MK's long program. It was a big disappointment that she couldn't do Cambels or SA. I'm still optimistic that we'll see her program at COC.

Schmeck

10-13-2005, 03:10 PM

It doesn't hurt that Cousins is so handsome either... ;) (Quick, before hubby sees me type this)

doubletoe

10-13-2005, 03:59 PM

Michelle competes at Nationals and Worlds because she CAN. Sure, she would probably save face by quitting before she risks failing to qualify for the Olympics (like Jenny Kirk just did), but who could blame her for staying on the ride as long as she can? Because once you fall out of that top 5-10 in the nation, you've got the rest of your life to do something else. I'm not actually a big MK fan, but I respect the fact that she is planning to compete this year, even though it will be harder for her to place well under the new judging system.

MQSeries

10-13-2005, 05:12 PM

Michelle competes at Nationals and Worlds because she CAN. Sure, she would probably save face by quitting before she risks failing to qualify for the Olympics (like Jenny Kirk just did), but who could blame her for staying on the ride as long as she can?

I don't think that's a fair assessment of why Jenny quit this season. Only she knows the truth. Jenny has shown in the past that she's a fighter. Sure the girl falls, but give her credit for not doubling and bailing out of triples. I think Jenny is much stronger than most people give her credit for. I just can't imagine that she is so fragile that she would quit skating, because there's a good chance that she won't make the O team.

Lili

10-13-2005, 05:30 PM

Perhaps the injury was from practicing a better layback position, or some kind of bielman position?

Yeah right.

Tessie

10-13-2005, 09:04 PM

Meredith

10-15-2005, 10:45 AM

Gee, the "meows" are beginning a little early in the season, aren't they?

loveskating

10-17-2005, 02:02 PM

Non-participation could be because she just didn't want to. That still doesn't make for a trend in injuries. :roll:

Well is sure as heck makes for a trend in SOMTHING...and all her fans would be quick to assert a trend if Kwan had won the past four Worlds...its just that bad news or controversial news is not as invigorating.

loveskating

10-17-2005, 02:08 PM

[QUOTE=loveskating]

It's rare for "unknown" skaters to have a prominent professional career without any sort of elegible titles. With Stephen Cousins, I'm sure that if he wasn't close friend with Scott, we would have never heard from him again after he retired from eligible competition.

I agree that MK doesn't need an OGM, but she wants it. The press will constantly asked her about missing the "big one". A portion of the public will also constantly remind her that she doesn't have the "big one". I want her to earn one just to shut everyone up :lol:

MK doesn't need to do a 3-3. She can just do one 3-2-2 and two 3-2s. I'm just hoping that TT has worked miracle for MK, and that we will see real choreography this year in the beginning, middle and end of MK's long program. It was a big disappointment that she couldn't do Cambels or SA. I'm still optimistic that we'll see her program at COC.

All sorts of skaters who were never on the podium or only there once or twice, and one gold or no gold internationally have pro careers in the US. Its all POLITICS now, and the most important thing is clearly to be an American or Canadian, not a great skater! Jennifer Robbins indeed! Sheesh. Maybe that's another reason people do not tune in as much? They are not interested in seeing Scott Hamilton's buddy!

P.S. You can never, ever shut up your critics...even Jesus Christ could not do that, so give it up.

Spider68

10-18-2005, 01:48 PM

Tapper

10-18-2005, 04:07 PM

Well is sure as heck makes for a trend in SOMTHING...and all her fans would be quick to assert a trend if Kwan had won the past four Worlds...its just that bad news or controversial news is not as invigorating.

No it doesn't.

jazzpants

10-18-2005, 04:51 PM

I don't think Michelle should retire because of injury. My comments about injury were more related to her ability to improve the technical difficulty of her programs. It happens that her lack of technical difficulty and complexity relative to her prime is a reason I think she should retire, so they are related, but that is an important intervening factor.True... but STILL, it's HER choice to make when she's gonna hang up her skates for good!!! I think she's been around the sport long enough to know when she's hit the point where she's no longer improving, right? ;)

loveskating

10-19-2005, 08:00 AM

True... but STILL, it's HER choice to make when she's gonna hang up her skates for good!!! I think she's been around the sport long enough to know when she's hit the point where she's no longer improving, right? ;)

Of course it is her choice, no one denies that, some of us simply deny the WISDOM of her choice, or others wonder about her motivation, considering there is nothing necessary in it for her.

Schmeck

10-20-2005, 05:24 AM

Well, now that Cohen is out with yet another injury, maybe they should both retire?

loveskating

10-20-2005, 11:36 AM

Well, now that Cohen is out with yet another injury, maybe they should both retire?

We shall see...if Sasha starts acting like a Diva and sitting out the GP series like Kwan has, for years, I'll criticize Sasha for it too...

Schmeck

10-20-2005, 07:30 PM

I always thought Kwan played it smart not to run herself ragged doing insignificant competitions. Of course, not everyone thinks the GP series is insignificant, but I have, for a long time, because they are invitationals. They're just the ISU's version of a fluff competition, in my eyes.

I think winning multiple National and World titles is much more significant, so I guess you are right, when you can't compare Kwan to Cohen, or Kirk or too many other skaters, except maybe Slutskaya.

crayonskater

10-21-2005, 11:56 AM

That, plus, I'm sure if MK was at every single GP event, people'd be whining that she wasn't allowing other American skaters to get a chance to compete internationally.

Tapper

10-22-2005, 03:39 PM

Of course it is her choice, no one denies that, some of us simply deny the WISDOM of her choice, or others wonder about her motivation, considering there is nothing necessary in it for her.

Firstly, who's to say that there's nothing "necessary" in it for her, as she obviously has her reasons for skating, and secondly, "necessity" is not necessarily the only reason why people pursue certain goals in their lives. Thirdly, what does it matter to you or to anyone else what her motivation is? You'll never know what it is unless she announces it. If she were to announce it, would you believe what she said?

I say more power to her if she wants to continue competing.

alfongsucks

10-22-2005, 04:20 PM

Firstly, who's to say that there's nothing "necessary" in it for her, as she obviously has her reasons for skating, and secondly, "necessity" is not necessarily the only reason why people pursue certain goals in their lives. Thirdly, what does it matter to you or to anyone else what her motivation is? You'll never know what it is unless she announces it. If she were to announce it, would you believe what she said?

I say more power to her if she wants to continue competing.

how much did she skate last year? Did she compete much last year except nationals and worlds? Did she do a triple triple last year? She had one years ago and has said she still does them. She is clearly past her physical prime {for at least 4 years now}. Last year she did not compete, she participated using routines that would not have beat her efforts five or six years ago. She is hanging on , it is clearly time for her to try other things. Tara was smart to get out on top. Not trying to flame michelle, but clearly her programs the last few years would not have been competitive with her 98 99 stuff. stick a fork in her , she is done :cry: I just wish that she could have won in 98!!!!!

Tapper

10-23-2005, 10:14 AM

how much did she skate last year? Did she compete much last year except nationals and worlds? Did she do a triple triple last year? She had one years ago and has said she still does them. She is clearly past her physical prime {for at least 4 years now}. Last year she did not compete, she participated using routines that would not have beat her efforts five or six years ago. She is hanging on , it is clearly time for her to try other things. Tara was smart to get out on top. Not trying to flame michelle, but clearly her programs the last few years would not have been competitive with her 98 99 stuff. stick a fork in her , she is done :cry: I just wish that she could have won in 98!!!!!

I wish she could have won in '98 too. But, I'm not ready to agree that she is done. I still think she has much to offer. Of course I am hoping that she will do well this season... win it all; but, having been disappointed in the last two Olympics, I'm not going to be :cry: if she doesn't. She's had a stellar run, and I'm glad that she is still competing.

Schmeck

10-23-2005, 10:33 AM

Just to be cheeky... :halo:

Tara who?? The aaaaaactressss? :roll:

Just watched some very old clips of Kwan - Olympic Festival stuff - what a little jumping bean she was. She's come a very long way, has changed the sport so much, and has every right to continue to skate, as long as she wants to, and as long as she earns her spot on the Olympic team, on the next World team, etc, then who is anyone to say what she should or shouldn't do?

I mean, Cohen is injured again now as well, shouldn't we squawk about her too? She's getting on in years, has already had one run at the Olympics, and many Worlds too. What about Corwin? Isn't she as old as dirt now?

So, you can all complain about how old Kwan is, how she isn't what she used to be (thank goodness, because jumping beans are boring) how she doesn't do the GP because of this and that... But she'll still skate if she wants to, she'll be just fine, the sport won't suffer, that's for sure!

Tapper

10-23-2005, 11:13 AM

I mean, Cohen is injured again now as well, shouldn't we squawk about her too? She's getting on in years, has already had one run at the Olympics, and many Worlds too. What about Corwin? Isn't she as old as dirt now?

What?! 8O Criticize Cohen for dropping out of Skate America because of an injury? Omygod, what are you thinking? ;)

It is interesting how Michelle's critics use her injury to write negative posts about her, but don't apply the same standards to Sasha.

alfongsucks

10-23-2005, 12:22 PM

MQSeries

10-23-2005, 03:38 PM

Maybe it's time to pursue other venues and leave the competitive skating world to the new up and comers? I don't like seeing Michelle compete and ending up 3rd and 4th...or worse yet, not qualify. Go out on top, Michelle!

It's too late for that now. If MK wanted to leave the sport on top then she should've left after 2003 Worlds. It's a whole new ball game now that doesn't really favor the "old timers", although Irina is doing suprisingly well under the new system. I would feel much better for Michelle if she had more than one COP experience under her belt before the Olympics. I hope she'll show up at Cup of China, where both Irina and Shizuka will be there. I haven't liked one TT choreographed program that I've seen so far this season. I can't imagine what she has done with MK.

Tapper

10-23-2005, 10:54 PM

I didn't just say this to hear myself talk. Their injuries mean different things because they are at different points in their careers and have different trends. The past few years Sasha has been getting closer and closer to winning worlds and arguably skating better in the process. Michelle has been getting further and further away and isn't skating as well. Thus to come to the same conclusion simply based on the injury would be idiotic.

A few of the conclusions people have been coming to about Michelle Kwan based on the injury have been "idiotic." Why not extend the same privilege to Sasha?

Well, this will all be settled in the next few months. Then we'll see whether or not Michelle should have retired 4 years ago, or whether or not her body is giving out, or whether or not she is capable of standing on the podium.

Tapper

10-24-2005, 08:27 PM

Ooh, I'll take that wager.

Yikes! Who said anything about a wager? I can see how you may have interpreted "and then we'll see whether or not" as bravado/challenge on my part, but really all I'm saying is that we will find out when the season is over. I'm not betting on anything. I may have my hopes, but that's all they are.

Schmeck

10-25-2005, 06:35 AM

I think that people would rag on cohen more if she hangs around for another 4 years. Also unlike michelle, cohen did seem to compete a lot more last year, and she is maintaining her placements at worlds.

I am sorry there was no excuse for Michelle competing at worlds not being "code ready" What was she thinking of?

Cohen competed more last year? I thought she skipped SA because injury, etc.

Kwan was 'code ready' - she had her programs and elements checked by judges last year.

loveskating

10-25-2005, 08:05 AM

Firstly, who's to say that there's nothing "necessary" in it for her, as she obviously has her reasons for skating, and secondly, "necessity" is not necessarily the only reason why people pursue certain goals in their lives. Thirdly, what does it matter to you or to anyone else what her motivation is? You'll never know what it is unless she announces it. If she were to announce it, would you believe what she said?

I say more power to her if she wants to continue competing.\\

ROFL! Some of you Kwan fans torture reason itself!

Its very simple, I don't approve of skaters who sit out the GP Series and then show up at their Nationals and go to Worlds. I don't care if they are Kwan, Yagudin, Eldredge or Little Boe Peep, I don't like that kind of behavior. I believe that talent and elite positions are mainly a RESPONSIBLITY, not a means by which someone is "entitled" to demand special treatment within their sphere.

So shoot me.

If they are injured, its another matter. No one should have to skate or work if they are injured or sick.

Darrell H

10-25-2005, 08:21 AM

loveskating

10-25-2005, 08:31 AM

Using the logic presented here, then, Irina never should have come back, Bute should have hung up her skates long before she won her World's, Paul Wylie should have quit and gone to law school before the Olympics :giveup: . If someone can make a podium, then why chase them off?

Irina did not sit out the season, she had a deadly illness; Butereskaya never sat out a season in her life that I know of or recall, in fact, the year she won Worlds she skated in every competition she could possibly get her hands on, and said she would; eh, I don't recall the specifics of Paul Wylie's career...only that he was not the favorite of the USFSA and they did not back him up and did some awful things to him...he was very far from any kind of Divo.

This torturing of reality by comparing Kwan with skaters who had a completely different career and never did what she has done for several yeears now is ...unreasonable.

I could give a flying hoot what Kwan does...its her choice, my only moral imperative is to tell the truth as I see it, so if you expect me to LIKE what Michelle is doing when I think it is a big mistake for her and bad for skating, you are barking up the wrong tree!

crayonskater

10-25-2005, 08:53 AM

I don't care overly much about this, but, um...

Kwan isn't bending any rules. She gets a bye to Nationals based on her previous year's performance; if she finishes in the top three at Nationals she goes to Worlds. Same for Cohen.

For an American skater, as I'm sure you know, the GP series doesn't figure in into who gets chosen to represent the U.S. at Worlds and the Olympics. So she's not sneaking in with anything here.

So the main reason for the GP for an American seems to be international practice and publicity. Arguably at this point in her career, Kwan doesn't need the practice or the publicity. She doesn't need to compete at the GP to qualify, so it's pretty much wholly her call and not an indicator of thumbing her nose at everyone. (I can't think of any top skater that competes at every GP -- we don't see the top six in the world at every competition.)

If the GP counted for the American Olympic berth, and she were blowing it off and *still* getting chosen, then there'd be a point here. But that's not how it works.

If Kwan wants to take the risk that she won't be up to snuff at Nationals because she's not getting in tons of practice, since it's a competition-style selection, that's her call. And doing so isn't unfair to any of the other skaters.

Darrell H

10-25-2005, 02:03 PM

Irina did not sit out the season, she had a deadly illness; Butereskaya never sat out a season in her life that I know of or recall, in fact, the year she won Worlds she skated in every competition she could possibly get her hands on, and said she would; eh, I don't recall the specifics of Paul Wylie's career...only that he was not the favorite of the USFSA and they did not back him up and did some awful things to him...he was very far from any kind of Divo.

Loveskating. My fault for not clarifying the remarks I was referencing. Those who say that a skater (any skater) is on the downward spiral career-wise, and should step aside to let others through, are the ones I was refering to. As I've said on these boards before, if a skater can make (or challenge for)the podium, they should be allowed to skate. Sorry for any confusion. :D

7302005

10-25-2005, 06:24 PM

loveskating - why do you spit so much poison at Michelle?

It seems that only certain skater's injuries are allowable by you and others. Any other skaters who are injured are "faking" it or not allowing other younger skaters the opportunity to compete.

I agree that everyone has their own skater preference, but in the end all I wish for is a good skating season.

loveskating

10-26-2005, 09:29 AM

Loveskating. My fault for not clarifying the remarks I was referencing. Those who say that a skater (any skater) is on the downward spiral career-wise, and should step aside to let others through, are the ones I was refering to. As I've said on these boards before, if a skater can make (or challenge for)the podium, they should be allowed to skate. Sorry for any confusion. :D

Of course she should be allowed to skate, any seasoned skater should, and that is not the issue with me, nor do I claim it is not her choice.. I just think it is UNWISE for her to continue, and I also don't think she needs to go to the Olympics to continue a very great career.

loveskating - why do you spit so much poison at Michelle? It seems that only certain skater's injuries are allowable by you and others. Any other skaters who are injured are "faking" it or not allowing other younger skaters the opportunity to compete.

I agree that everyone has their own skater preference, but in the end all I wish for is a good skating season.

Excuse me -- I never said Kwan's injury was not real -- nor do I "spew venom" about her or anyone else.

Basically, all I've said is that when ANY skater reaches their physical peak, injuries are more common -- and IMHO Michelle has reached her own physical peak, as everyone must sooner or later.

But now I'll go father -- I can understand why some wonder if her injury is real -- just as people wondered if Yagudin's injury was real for a GP Final in 2002! This common "accusation" is really no big deal except to some very over-sensitive Kwan fans.

FYI Michelle Kwan is one of my all time favorite skaters! Sure, I get mad at her, and I get mad at my daughter too, doesn't mean I don't adore my daughter or that I hate Michelle!

Tapper

10-28-2005, 11:00 PM

I could give a flying hoot what Kwan does...its her choice, my only moral imperative is to tell the truth as I see it, so if you expect me to LIKE what Michelle is doing when I think it is a big mistake for her and bad for skating, you are barking up the wrong tree!

If you don't give a flying hoot what Michelle Kwan does then why are you complaing about what she does?

yvettedeena

10-29-2005, 02:56 PM

Things would get boring if we never talked about skating.

Sure, but what's the point of claiming you don't give a "flying hoot" :roll: when based on many, many postings, loveskating obviously does. People who don't care (one way or the other) don't bother posting.

Tapper

10-29-2005, 04:17 PM

Things would get boring if we never talked about skating.

Which means that one cares [enough] about skating to talk about it, or to complain about it...

If you are serious about posting about things you "don't give a crap about" - well, don't you find that whole dialogue boring? Why would you spend your time doing anything that you don't care about? Life is short!

yvettedeena

10-29-2005, 04:19 PM

I disagree...I post about a lot of stuff I don't give a crap about. Sometimes people talk to be social, even when they aren't particularly interested in the topic.

I agree with that. But the person I'm speaking of often gives well thought out opinions on practically every move Kwan makes, which, IMHO, indicates more than just a passing interest or hoot, if I may. :)

loveskating

10-31-2005, 08:15 AM

I agree with that. But the person I'm speaking of often gives well thought out opinions on practically every move Kwan makes, which, IMHO, indicates more than just a passing interest or hoot, if I may. :)

I sure wish I had an "intentions meter" like yours where I could put words into other people's mouths with such certainty!

However, I will try to answer you with some modicum of resepct: I do care about the issues involved...as most normal people do...most people don't have principles of fairness, and then change them because our favorite skater violated them!

Also, I make it a point to defend people like Bondo, and anyone else you Kwaniacs try to drive off the net in an attempt to drive anyone from skating who does not adore MIchelle Kwan! Your efforts to make a god of her I find -- well -- delusional because its impossible.

yvettedeena

10-31-2005, 12:18 PM

I sure wish I had an "intentions meter" like yours where I could put words into other people's mouths with such certainty!

However, I will try to answer you with some modicum of resepct: I do care about the issues involved...as most normal people do...most people don't have principles of fairness, and then change them because our favorite skater violated them!

Also, I make it a point to defend people like Bondo, and anyone else you Kwaniacs try to drive off the net in an attempt to drive anyone from skating who does not adore MIchelle Kwan! Your efforts to make a god of her I find -- well -- delusional because its impossible.

First of all - the term "Kwaniancs". :roll: I notice that anyone who indicates any liking of Michelle's skating is automatically labelled a Kwanianic by you. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't mean that as a positive term so, can please explain how you consider it respectful to resort to name-calling the minute anyone has something positive to say about Michelle? I, quite frankly, have no problem communicating with Bondo. I find Bondo's posts to be quite interesting, in fact. We have a difference in opinion, but so what? I welcome all sorts of opinions from people, especially those diffierent from my own - they may just have to something to say that I can learn.

It seems though, that you feel that unless I have negative things to say about Kwan or don't agree with everything you say that constitutes "driving Bondo off". Bondo seems quite able to hold his or her own, based on everything I've read from Bondo. So what's the problem?

yvettedeena

10-31-2005, 12:32 PM

Also, I make it a point to defend people like Bondo, and anyone else you Kwaniacs try to drive off the net in an attempt to drive anyone from skating who does not adore MIchelle Kwan! Your efforts to make a god of her I find -- well -- delusional because its impossible.

"I find Michelle's skating enjoyable". Which is, based on your definition, 'making a god of her".

"I find Sasha's skating enjoyable". Am I making a god of Sasha too? I know of course your answer is yes.

"I find Michelle skating more to my liking than Sasha's". Now that's your problem, admit it.

You have a problem with people who like Michelle's skating more than they like Sasha's, hence you have to label them Kwaniacs or delusional.

Here's what you just can't seem to get. Some of us, are able to like more than one skater and can do that without disliking their rivals. Even if we enjoy the skating of some skaters more than others. I hate to break it to you but I am a "fan of figure skating". Period. So no matter how many times you try to label me a fan of only one skater, it's only a reality for you, not me.

Schmeck

10-31-2005, 03:16 PM

Just a note - Bondo is a he.

loveskating

10-31-2005, 03:41 PM

First of all - the term "Kwaniancs". :roll: I notice that anyone who indicates any liking of Michelle's skating is automatically labelled a Kwanianic by you. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't mean that as a positive term so, can please explain how you consider it respectful to resort to name-calling the minute anyone has something positive to say about Michelle? I, quite frankly, have no problem communicating with Bondo. I find Bondo's posts to be quite interesting, in fact. We have a difference in opinion, but so what? I welcome all sorts of opinions from people, especially those diffierent from my own - they may just have to something to say that I can learn.

It seems though, that you feel that unless I have negative things to say about Kwan or don't agree with everything you say that constitutes "driving Bondo off". Bondo seems quite able to hold his or her own, based on everything I've read from Bondo. So what's the problem?

ROFL...you forgot that you attacked me, claimed I was "obsessed" with Michelle?

Look, I love Michelle, I cheer for her every time she hits the ice, I will respect her all my life unless she goes off the deep end morally or something, and even if she did that, I would probably still love her. I watch tapes I have of her great performances often, only these days, I'm afraid that what she puts on the ice itself is not up to the level of competitors she now faces. Technically, even Emily Hughes can literally skate circles around her!

Sorry if you think that is mean of me, because I think its just telling the truth. Don't feel bad, Paul Wylie cannot skate like Ilia Kulik either, but Paul Wylie is a very great skater, and always will have that. And Ilia Kulik cannot skate quite like Yagudin or Plushenko...big deal. Only obsesed fans make facts like this a big deal.

Hint, hint: you can love and adore Michelle all you like whether she wins all the time or not!

yvettedeena

10-31-2005, 05:28 PM

ROFL...you forgot that you attacked me, claimed I was "obsessed" with Michelle?

Actually, no. I just was questioned your claim to not give a hoot about anything Michelle does. That's not at all the same thing as claiming someone is obsessed. There was no attack unless you feel that opinions that differ from yours is an attack.

Look, I love Michelle, I cheer for her every time she hits the ice, I will respect her all my life unless she goes off the deep end morally or something, and even if she did that, I would probably still love her. I watch tapes I have of her great performances often, only these days, I'm afraid that what she puts on the ice itself is not up to the level of competitors she now faces. Technically, even Emily Hughes can literally skate circles around her!

Oh, I quite agree that what Michelle has put on the ice in the past few years has not been up to the standards of her competitiors. Never claimed otherwise. On the other hand, I cannot claim that she is not capable of bringing more to the table THIS year until I see it.

Sorry if you think that is mean of me, because I think its just telling the truth. Don't feel bad, Paul Wylie cannot skate like Ilia Kulik either, but Paul Wylie is a very great skater, and always will have that. And Ilia Kulik cannot skate quite like Yagudin or Plushenko...big deal. Only obsesed fans make facts like this a big deal.

I certainly don't feel bad about liking the skaters I like... a little puzzled as to why you feel I would be.

Hint, hint: you can love and adore Michelle all you like whether she wins all the time or not!

Look, I LIKE Michelle just like I LIKE loads of skaters. I LIKE figure skating. Period. Love and adoration doesn't enter into it for me. Hint, hint: just because someone has an different opinion from yours, doesn't make that person obsessive about the subject.