Bronze Moves Test Experience

[jazzpants]

Okay, you guys who are in the Pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery!!!! Here's my take on things:

PASSING AVG: 2.5

Forward perimeter crossovers: I got a 2.3 from one judge and a 2.7 from a second judge! 8O Don't remember what the third judge thought of it...but I think it was borderline passing. I did remember that the comment was pretty much "Good power, skated on flats though..." One other judge did comment that I was "walking" on my crossovers. She wants progressives (as in "cross under"), NOT crossovers (as in... well, crossovers!!!)

Back perimeter crossovers: The toe pick monster got me on this one... again, I had a "skated on flats" comment. (As you can see, this is a reoccuring theme for me.) But this time there were no comments on flow and speed... (Last time I took it I was marked for being SLOW too!!!) I think you would need to do back progressives to pass this test. BEND your knees!!!

Forward Power 3's: This is where I did get comments for power and for toe picks. One judge commented on my being out of control on the transition to RFO from back crossovers on the end pattern... (Yeah! I was a bit wild there...) Same judge also said that the 3's were SWINGY... And yes, the toe pick monster and flat edge monster got me here too... (God! I hate HATE HATE this move!!!) Another move that you have to BEND your knees on is this one b/c of the power thing...

Back crossover to BO edge: No comments on extensions. They commented again on the flat edge here too. (I REALLY need to work on back crossovers!!!! YIKES!!! 8O ) BEND your knees!!! It does help you on the "continuous flow and strength" part of the moves...

5 step mohawk: Step on flat (probably that 3rd to 4th edge is bad...) FI mohawk "hoppy". No comment on extensions though. I guess I did okay on that. Don't know what happened to me on that one... Probably I was quite tired and exhausted by the time I did this move.

I also don't remember which move, but I got a "good posture" remark from one of the judges on one of the moves... (Which I find funny since that's one of my WORST attributes in skating...) :lol:

General comments:

Overall I think most of the low scores were not below 2.3. (I think one of my moves on the really tough judge was like 2.2. She essentially gave me scores more closer to "I didn't improve from last year...") The one judge that DID judge me last year gave me much better scores overall this year. Some were 2.4's. The judge that passed me had me at 2.5's on some moves and a 2.7 on the forward perimeter. (B/c of the power I got from that move...) My not getting a reskate had nothing to do with ONE particular move. It was an overall thing. (i.e. the other two judges that didn't pass it gave me 2.3's on some moves and 2.4's on others.) If it was a matter of one move being on the borderline and everything else was passing, then yes, it would have been a different story. But this is not one of those cases! I was not deemed a reskate b/c of this. :evil:

REALLY BEND KNEES!!! If I did bend my knees enough, I'd probably would have gotten better scores on some of the moves... Certainly, it would harder for the toe pick monster to get me! :evil:

Watch your posture!!! They do watch for that... and besides, if you lurch over, then you'll definitely get bitten by the toe pick monster... :evil:

Just b/c "power" is taken out in place of "continuous flow and strength" doesn't make it that much easier to pass. If anything, having the emphasis on power encourages the skater to work on better technique. And as we all know, better technique makes skating those move elements ten times EASIER! (See the notes on "flat edges." If I had worked on power, there would be no "flat edges"...)

Also on the same vane: Taking out "power" in place of "continuous flow and strength" DOES NOT mean you can slow down!!! You still need to go FASTER and PUSH!!! This is the "continuous flow and strength" part of the moves! (Ha HA! And we, the pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery thought we have it lucky, huh? :twisted: )

And speaking of flat edges: WATCH THOSE EDGES!!! Make SURE you're ON a true edge!!! This is primarily what did me in this time! If I had skated on a correct and true edge, I probably would have passed this test... Currently, it's probably kinda hard for me to distinguish and the only person who can tell me whether I'm on an edge or not are my coaches.

I don't have my test form with me. I'll get a copy of it sometime towards the end of the month. I'll have more comments then. Jay did read mine and did relay the comments onto my secondary coach, so they know what they have to work on now... One note of encouragment though... I will be testing again in two months!!! Secondary coach wants me to try it again!!!

[montanarose]

Hey Jo Ann --

Huge congrats to you just for TAKING the darn thing :bow: :bow: :bow:

Sounds like you're getting closer and it's only a matter of time before you pass it. Your dubious reward, of course, will be having to start work on the Adult Silver moves.

Cheers,
Ellen, a permanent member of the Pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery :frus:

[Debbie S]

Thanks for sharing, Jazz. From your scores and what the judges and your coaches said, it sounds like you HAVE improved from last year. In fact, it sounds like you're really close! I know it's only a matter of time before you pass it - maybe as soon as December. :)

Be proud of yourself for getting out there and giving it another shot - and at 7 a.m., no less!

Question about the toepick issue on the back perim and power 3's: did the judges say you were on toepicks during the crossovers? The wide step? Or on the push to the FO edge after the B XO lobe (power 3's)? I am having some difficulty staying off my toepicks in back crossovers and I'm trying really hard not to push on my toepick when I step forward in the power 3's. My coach emphasizes the need to improve on my posture, definitely my weakest attribute in skating!

[jenlyon60]

If you think about pressing down through the mid-foot and heel on your back crossovers, that will help get you off the toe pick.

It may be scary at first, but will have multiple rewards...

1. No (or significantly less) toepick scratching
2. Better use of the blade to execute both strokes of the back crossover

[Terri C]

Jazzpants,
I hope you don't mind me printing out your post and sharing it with my coaches this week, since I'm prepping to test this in December, even though we are on opposite ends of the country.
Talking with my primary coach, it's bad enough that the judging for the standard track moves across the country is inconsistent. Because of that the adult moves, she feels are more confusing, even though there is a comparision chart on the USFS website spelling out the adult expectations!

[Debbie S]

Thanks for the tips, Jen.

My coach kept emphasizing the need to keep my shoulders back - aligned with hips, not leaning forward. I've also watched the PSA moves video and it says to keep your weight on the "middle front" of your blades, but when I do that, I just scrape, probably b/c of my posture. Perhaps thinking of pressing back will also help my upper body issues.

I really, really want to pass this test on the first try, but I'm aware that may not happen.

[jazzpants]

Question about the toepick issue on the back perim and power 3's: did the judges say you were on toepicks during the crossovers? The wide step? Or on the push to the FO edge after the B XO lobe (power 3's)? I am having some difficulty staying off my toepicks in back crossovers and I'm trying really hard not to push on my toepick when I step forward in the power 3's. My coach emphasizes the need to improve on my posture, definitely my weakest attribute in skating!It doesn't say, but my assumption is the push under on the back crossovers (for both moves) and on the power 3's it's on the push on the FO edge. (I was annoyed about that this morning!!!) :evil:

[icedancer2]

Forward Power 3's: This is where I did get comments for power and for toe picks. One judge commented on my being out of control on the transition to RFO from back crossovers on the end pattern... (Yeah! I was a bit wild there...)

But isn't this part of the pattern "optional" -- how can they really comment at all


General comments:



Just b/c "power" is taken out in place of "continuous flow and strength" doesn't make it that much easier to pass. If anything, having the emphasis on power [i]encourages the skater to work on better technique. And as we all know, better technique makes skating those move elements ten times EASIER! (See the notes on "flat edges." If I had worked on power, there would be no "flat edges"...)

Also on the same vane: Taking out "power" in place of "continuous flow and strength" DOES NOT mean you can slow down!!! You still need to go FASTER and PUSH!!! This is the "continuous flow and strength" part of the moves! (Ha HA! And we, the pre-Bronze Peanut Gallery thought we have it lucky, huh? :twisted: )

This makes me wonder why they ever bothered to get rid of the term "power"? What does continuous flow and strength mean besides "power"? What is power anyway? [icedancer, sitting in fear that the judges will notice how slow and old she is when she takes her test...]

Well, thanks for the tips -- I hope you are feeling okay. This testing thing is HARD!!!

[jazzpants]

Forward Power 3's: This is where I did get comments for power and for toe picks. One judge commented on my being out of control on the transition to RFO from back crossovers on the end pattern... (Yeah! I was a bit wild there...) But isn't this part of the pattern "optional" -- how can they really comment at all [icedancer, sitting in fear that they judges won't like my end-pattern, or lack thereof, when I take this test.Well, I think they were more concerned that I couldn't keep the 3turn in control once I made the transition, not the end pattern itself. I had a note that my 3turns were swingy!

So still alot of work to be done on my forward power 3's... (GAWD!!! I really HATE this move!!! :frus: )

This makes me wonder why they ever bothered to get rid of the term "power"? What does continuous flow and strength mean besides "power"? What is power anyway? [icedancer, sitting in fear that the judges will notice how slow and old she is when she takes her test...]

Well, thanks for the tips -- I hope you are feeling okay. This testing thing is HARD!!!Well, as I understood it, one implies that you are being graded on how you generate speed. The other implies speed but doesn't imply that you are graded on how you generate speed.

However, here's the problem with this equation as far as MY test is concerned: I am also graded on correctness of edges and no toe pushing... all this IS related to HOW YOU GENEARATE POWER!!! Soooo... I think it depends on the judge. If the judge sees that you're generate speed (thru power) you MIGHT not get dinged for HOW you generate power and get a high score for following the focus anyway. (Which is the case for the judge that passed me.) Unfortunately, the judges around here tends to ding you on that anyway under "correctness of edges."

If it's any consolation, if you do generate power the correct way, you'll actually move faster w/o much effort. Of course, you would have to get used to controling the speed you generate thru that more powerful stroke or push, but that's another can of worms! ;) (i.e. do it right first, THEN do it right faster!) ALSO, keep in mind I had an extremely TOUGH panel of judges!!! (At least that's what my coaches keep reminding me...)

[dbny]

Congrats on taking this bear of a test again, and on having the guts to go for it once more in two months! Thank you for sharing your experience.

Re the power threes, my ex-coach, who is a real authority on testing, has told me many times that you are allowed a little swing on those particular threes because it fits in with the flow of the move. I can only think that this is one of those regional differences. On the back XO to BO edge, bending your skating knee deeply on the BO edge will guarantee a real edge. You can train yourself to know when you are on edge: do the edge on a hockey circle. If you stay on the circle, you are on a true edge. If you move outside of the circle, you have flattened out. If move to the inside, your edge has deepened. Try all combinations and pay close attention to the feeling of each.

I sure wish I were ready to test, but it's looking farther and farther away.

[phoenix]

However, here's the problem with this equation as far as MY test is concerned: I am also graded on correctness of edges and no toe pushing... all this IS related to HOW YOU GENEARATE POWER!!! Soooo... I think it depends on the judge. If the judge sees that you're generate speed (thru power) you MIGHT not get dinged for HOW you generate power and get a high score for following the focus anyway. Unfortunately, the judges around here tends to ding you on that anyway under "correctness of edges."


I feel quite safe in guaranteeing you that no judge would pass a powerful test that was all toe pushes and flats. Primary/secondary focus aside, you are always being judged on the quality of your skating--that's what moves is all about! And whether or not edge quality is the main focus, you will always get dinged if the edges are not correct. They want us to have it all!!

The difference would be that at the lower levels they don't expect the same quality/polish as the higher levels, but the technique does need to be evident.

I haven't seen an adult test w/ the new rules, but my take on "continuous strength & flow" would be they want the move to be smooth, no hesitation, confident & yes, skated with good *consistant* speed. "Power" as a primary focus usually means the move should continuallly accelerate as you skate it.

[jenlyon60]

According to the MITF Judges' Manual, Power is defined as

"the creation of speed and flow without visible effort. It is developed by a continuous rise and fall of the skating knee together with the pressure of the edge of the blade against the ice. (The skater should demonstrate the ability to exert equal pressure against the surface of the ice on both the right and the left foot.) End products of power are (1) velocity, speed or pace; (2) FLOW across the ice; and (3) acceleration."

I haven't yet seen an "official" definition of "continuous strength and flow" but I would generally expect a Bronze test to have minimal use of toe pushes. I would also expect to see forward crossovers that may not be true "dance progressives/runs" but close.

Re the forward power 3 turns, it seems there is a difference around the country on expectations. In my neck of the woods, at least on Preliminary, the judges expect to see some control of the turn, with the edge held afterwards, before the skater strokes onto the BI edge.

The MITF school Manual states that common errors for forward power 3's include

"After the forward 3-turn as the skater is changing feet, he/she will shift onto a back outside edge instead of a back inside edge;

inability to create power from the BI edge with the weight shift into the back crossover;

uneven timing;

Too noisy (use of TOEPICKS instead of the edges to stroke);

Lack of Control of Free leg and upper body;

poor posture."

These common errors apply whether the test is a Preliminary or an Adult Bronze.

[techskater]

I would assume continuous flow and strength has to do with flowing on the correct edges, timing, correct pushes, and not slowing down where "power" implies acceleration through the move (I think of the power circles on Gold, Intermediate, and Junior when thinking of the MITF definition of power).

As it stands, it seems that you are making progress on the test and could very well pass in December with a few corrections. If you think about pulling your shoulders back and sitting down in your knee over your skate more, it may help you to get rid of the toepick monster (this is what worked for me).


Good luck getting it just a little better, Jazz

[Skate@Delaware]

If you think about pressing down through the mid-foot and heel on your back crossovers, that will help get you off the toe pick.

It may be scary at first, but will have multiple rewards...

1. No (or significantly less) toepick scratching
2. Better use of the blade to execute both strokes of the back crossover
It took me a while to figure this out on my own...it really helps a lot! (yeah, it is scary pushing that far back on the blade though)

I'm sure you will pass on the next go! You are so close!

Thanks for posting the info. I'm sure it will help everyone interested.

[skaternum]

Sorry to hear you didn't pass, but I think you're taking all the right info from this experience. Good luck next time!

[sk8pics]

Oh, I'm sorry Jazzpants, but at least it sounds like you got some good and helpful feedback! Hang in there, and you'll get it next time!

[sk8er1964]

I'm sorry you didn't pass trhis time, Jazzpants :cry: but I'm sending you good vibes for the next time!

It doesn't say, but my assumption is the push under on the back crossovers (for both moves) and on the power 3's it's on the push on the FO edge. (I was annoyed about that this morning!!!) :evil:

I didn't do the lower moves due to grandfathering, so please bear with me. Is this the move where you do, for example, a RFO three turn, then put your weight on the left foot, do a crossover, then step into another RFO three turn? Because if it is, then the push under they are talking about is the push under on the back crossover, not a push into a forward edge.

When you do a back crossover, the cross in front should be accompanied with a push under on the opposite foot. It kind of suprises me that they would be so into that on the pre-bronze test - at that level, cross overs are often steppy anyways. It's a beginning test, not the Intermediate power circles! 8O

[kar5162]

Congrats on getting out there and giving it a try. It sounds as though you've made progress from the last time you tested. Definitely test again - you're well on your way and practice in front of the judges will help with nerves, which will help with the toe pick issues. Good luck with the next try - just do it!

[jazzpants]

I didn't do the lower moves due to grandfathering, so please bear with me. Is this the move where you do, for example, a RFO three turn, then put your weight on the left foot, do a crossover, then step into another RFO three turn? Because if it is, then the push under they are talking about is the push under on the back crossover, not a push into a forward edge. Yep! That's the one! It's actually on the push under on the back crossovers AND when I step onto the next RFO for the next RFO3. I hear scratchy sounds each time I push onto the RFO edge (well in this case it was the LFO edge.) Definitely a no-no!!! And unfortunately I figure out that part of the reason I was doing that was b/c I feel I'm going to lose edge control on the FO3's when I go faster, so I end up going on the toepick to slow down. I also hear scratchy noises at times on the push under on the crossovers too, b/c I don't have much of a "cross-under" too!!! (I know! BAD JAZZPANTS! BAD!!! :twisted: )

When you do a back crossover, the cross in front should be accompanied with a push under on the opposite foot. It kind of suprises me that they would be so into that on the pre-bronze test - at that level, cross overs are often steppy anyways. It's a beginning test, not the Intermediate power circles! 8OThis is NOT pre-Bronze moves, but BRONZE moves!!! There is a passing average and this is NOT an "encouragement test" as pre-Bronze moves is. (Not that I think pre-Bronze moves are easy either, mind you! I had one guy who's a better skater than I said coming out of the test that he passed "by the skin of his teeth." :twisted: ) The judges are trying to determine if I have a certain level of good skating technique and I made some major boo-boos on that.

I'll just have to prepare now so I left no doubt in anyone's mind come December that I'm definitely a Bronze level skater!!!

[MusicSkateFan]

Keep Working JazzPants...I have faith you will get this!

My coach stressed edges! I felt my speed...flow....and...power...(Back in July when I tested Bronze MITF)) came from my edges and Timing! I had a couple criticisms:

one Judge said on my Back crossovers that I did not truly get to a BI edge on my left foot when heading towards the boards. 2.4...but gave me a 2.6 for the landing position move because of speed power and good edges.

another said my power threes were too tentative.....2.4 but gave me 2.6 for landing position move because I had such good speed.

All three judges said my timing on power threes(placement of 3 turn) and timing for 5 step was very good.

Well I know that even though I passed I still practice these moves every time I skate and I try to think about what those judges said. Edges!

Keep at it!

[sk8er1964]

This is NOT pre-Bronze moves, but BRONZE moves!!! There is a passing average and this is NOT an "encouragement test" as pre-Bronze moves is. (Not that I think pre-Bronze moves are easy either, mind you! I had one guy who's a better skater than I said coming out of the test that he passed "by the skin of his teeth." :twisted: ) The judges are trying to determine if I have a certain level of good skating technique and I made some major boo-boos on that.

I'll just have to prepare now so I left no doubt in anyone's mind come December that I'm definitely a Bronze level skater!!!

Sorry Jazzpants - I knew that it was the Bronze :oops: . It was a rather long weekend for me.

[jazzpants]

Sorry Jazzpants - I knew that it was the Bronze :oops: . It was a rather long weekend for me.That's okay. And yeah, I know what you mean. I shouldn't be judged as if I'm doing Int. Moves. Unfortunately in this case, I drew an incredibly TOUGH panel of judges and their expectations are that my crossovers be more like progressives and NOT ummm... "cross overs." (They should just change it to alt. forward progressives and alt. backward progressives instead! :lol: Yes, I'm laughing but I'm also QUITE serious!!!)

[jenlyon60]

FYI, Backward progressives are a totally different beast than back crossovers. They don't even look like back crossovers.

I can't specifically speak for a Bronze test here, but for a Pre-Juv test, progressive-style forward crossovers are expected.

Unfortunately, even in an Adult Bronze test (with a lower passing average than Pre-Juv), doing the old "pick up and cross over" combined with flats and toe pushes is probably not going to convey an impression of "continuous strength and flow" to many judges. For one thing, there's often a certain lack of smoothness associated with the "pick up and cross over" version of forward crossovers, as well as with toe pushes.

[sk8pics]

(They should just change it to alt. forward progressives and alt. backward progressives instead!

Jazzpants, would you mind clarifying this for me? I understand the difference between forward crossovers and progressives, and see why the judges might prefer progressives, but I thought backward progressives didn't actually involve a cross. Or are you really referring to backward crossovers with an actual step over vs. sliding the foot on the ice without picking it up?

[jenlyon60]

At the Adult Bronze level, one should not be picking up the "crossing over" leg ... it should be more of a "slide over" with the weight already well over the inside (to the circle) leg.

[Joan]

Slightly changing the subject, but I am working on Silver moves now. What has been the experience of others with the cross-strokes move, which is in pre-juvenile as well as silver? I have not tested silver yet, but several younger skaters in our club, in testing pre-juv, got dinged for doing more of a cross-step than a cross-stroke. This is kind of the same distinction as the beginning of a forward progressive versus the beginning of a forward cross-over.

[jazzpants]

Jazzpants, would you mind clarifying this for me? I understand the difference between forward crossovers and progressives, and see why the judges might prefer progressives, but I thought backward progressives didn't actually involve a cross. Or are you really referring to backward crossovers with an actual step over vs. sliding the foot on the ice without picking it up?What jenlyon60 said... :D (i.e. the part about sliding vs. actually stepping over...)

[phoenix]

What jenlyon60 said... :D (i.e. the part about sliding vs. actually stepping over...)

That's still a back crossover--just a more advanced one. Have a dancer show you back progressives sometime--completely different; there's no crossing of the feet at all.

[jazzpants]

FYI, Backward progressives are a totally different beast than back crossovers. They don't even look like back crossovers.I am gonna take back my comment on back progressives... just so I don't confuse anyone else... :oops: (I plead my ignorance on ice dancing!!! I know NOTHING about it!!!)

I can't specifically speak for a Bronze test here, but for a Pre-Juv test, progressive-style forward crossovers are expected. From my test results, I think they were expecting progressive-style forward crossovers.

Unfortunately, even in an Adult Bronze test (with a lower passing average than Pre-Juv), doing the old "pick up and cross over" combined with flats and toe pushes is probably not going to convey an impression of "continuous strength and flow" to many judges. For one thing, there's often a certain lack of smoothness associated with the "pick up and cross over" version of forward crossovers, as well as with toe pushes.Yeap! This is why I made the comment about "power" vs. "continuous strength and flow." You are STILL expected to train as if you are working on a power move (i.e. you STILL must work on the correct TECHNIQUE -- and SPEED is the end result of the correct technique!)

So I'm going back now to work on better crossovers now, rather than how fast I'm going. I figured that the speed will come along for the ride eventually...

[phoenix]

>>So I'm going back now to work on better crossovers now, rather than how fast I'm going. I figured that the speed will come along for the ride eventually...

I think that you are right. You have got a great attitude about all of this & are so willing to listen to everyone's advice. I'm sure you'll pass the test soon, given how hard you're willing to work on it! :)

[Debbie S]

one Judge said on my Back crossovers that I did not truly get to a BI edge on my left foot when heading towards the boards. 2.4...but gave me a 2.6 for the landing position move because of speed power and good edges.

another said my power threes were too tentative.....2.4 but gave me 2.6 for landing position move because I had such good speed.
Did you do the landing position move (alt BO edge glides) in 4 lobes or 5 on each side? I remember some of the kids testing Prelim MIF at a recent test session I watched got marked a tenth above on this move, but they all did it in 4 lobes instead of the usual 5. I was just curious.

I think I'm in big trouble. I just practiced for 2 hours this afternoon and can't get off my toepicks in back crossovers! I tried leaning back, putting my weight toward the heel, everything! :frus: And I'm pushing off with my toe on the BI to FO step in the power 3's on the right side.

On the plus side, another coach who was there told me my forward crossover stroking move was looking better than before (I wonder how bad it was before - lol). I'm really trying hard to push under more instead of stepping over - per my coach's orders.

About the progressives thing - I'm not familiar with the term (sorry, I don't do dance) but it sounds like a progressive (at least a forward one) is a crossover where there is a lot of push under and less crossing over. Am I right?

[Hannahclear]

I'm working on Bronze Moves right now, so thanks for the enlightening and interesting thread about test experiences. I know I will read it again even more carefully.

I think part of it is the judging panel. I've seen skaters who are not that fast or that powerful and they have passed bronze moves. So it depends on the judges you get.

I had a mini-breakthrough today in my lesson regarding Power 3s. Try this: when you are balanced on the BI after the turn and ready to shift weight and push, think of "flicking" your leg. Of course, you still use the big leg muscles, but try and remember to follow through all the way to the ankle and "flick the leg" forward. This has REALLY helped me. Before I was usually on a slight outside edge rather than inside, and at best, a flat. Today, I was on flat to inside once I got the "flick" down. Now I just need to worry about developing the back crossover more.

[jenlyon60]

Actually it's 2 pushes. One with each foot... that is one strong push onto the FO edge of the new skating foot, then instead of doing the "pick me up and over", place the "to be" skating foot ahead and almost in front of the current skating foot. As the new skating foot contacts the ice, your weight should still be on the old skating foot and you push under and through with it. Then pick it up and place it beside the current skating foot.

The official ISU/USFS definition of a progressive (from last year's rule book) reads "A step of sequence of steps on the same lobe and in the same direction in which the free foot, during the period of becoming the skating foot, strikes the ice beside and travels past the skating foot, thus bringing the new free foot off the ice trailing the new skating foot, and in such a manner that some impetus is gained from the edge of the foot which is becoming the free foot"

Once you get used to doing them, dance-style forward progressives (or forward runs for our UK skaters) are actually much easier and much more comfortable than the "pick me up and over" crossovers, IMO. You also get a smoother weight transition and power/flow generation.

One of my coaches had me do something similar to the "pick me up and over" crossovers a few months ago and it felt really really awkward and trippy.

About the progressives thing - I'm not familiar with the term (sorry, I don't do dance) but it sounds like a progressive (at least a forward one) is a crossover where there is a lot of push under and less crossing over. Am I right?

[jazzpants]

Did you do the landing position move (alt BO edge glides) in 4 lobes or 5 on each side? I remember some of the kids testing Prelim MIF at a recent test session I watched got marked a tenth above on this move, but they all did it in 4 lobes instead of the usual 5. I was just curious.I did 5 on each side (following whatever pattern is on the USFSA rulebook diagram.) I really doubt that has anything to do with whether I passed or not in this case. (I definitely would have gotten comments from both my coaches AND the judges if that were the case.)

I think I'm in big trouble. I just practiced for 2 hours this afternoon and can't get off my toepicks in back crossovers! I tried leaning back, putting my weight toward the heel, everything! :frus: And I'm pushing off with my toe on the BI to FO step in the power 3's on the right side. Are you sitting on your edge? (As in your back is straight but your knees are deeply bent at the same time?) It's also possible that you need to hold your BI edge just a bit longer before you step on the FO edge. I found that helps a bit!!! Also turn out your torso out a bit more.

On the plus side, another coach who was there told me my forward crossover stroking move was looking better than before (I wonder how bad it was before - lol). I'm really trying hard to push under more instead of stepping over - per my coach's orders.Well, now you have added incentives besides following your coach's order!!! :lol: :P

[Terri C]

Today, I practiced my Bronze moves with all the comments Jazzpants got in mind and managed to get some power out of my RFO power threes!
I did print Jazz's notes to show to Coach tomorrow and I have a feeling she'll be saying "Terri, this is what I've been telling you all along!"
Stay tuned!

[techskater]

The cross strokes are actually from the Juvenile test (not Pre-Juv) and the to be skating foot should strike the ice before the cross part and slide over. On the slide over part, to be done textbook fashion, BOTH skates should be on an outside edge. Clear as mud?

[sk8pics]

That's still a back crossover--just a more advanced one. Have a dancer show you back progressives sometime--completely different; there's no crossing of the feet at all.


Yes, that's what i thought, which is why JP's original comment had confused me. And yes, I know about the difference between picking your foot up and sliding it across in back xovers, and I haven't done the pick-up-your-foot method in years. I just got confused.

So, anyway, Jazzpants, congrats on trying and for your great attitude afterwards! (And especially putting upt with all these questions!)

[dbny]

The cross strokes are actually from the Juvenile test (not Pre-Juv) and the to be skating foot should strike the ice before the cross part and slide over. On the slide over part, to be done textbook fashion, BOTH skates should be on an outside edge. Clear as mud?

That is so not what I have been taught. There is no slide over on either the F or the B cross strokes in Juvenile. I do not think it is possible to be, for example, on a LFO edge and place your R foot onto the ice not crossed over and slide it over if you are doing a RFO edge. Think about it, the arcs of your two feet diverge. Here is what I was taught: The new foot takes the ice on a FO edge crossed over the skating foot at as close to 90' to the long axis as possible. During the push, from the FO edge of the old skating foot, you will be slightly pigeon toed and will have to straighten out your foot to get a properly pointed toe and extension.

[crayonskater]

So a forward progressive is just a non-steppy-over forward crossover? (The 'advanced' crossover with the pretty dance-like quality?)

And how do you do a back crossover without picking up your 'inside' foot (the one riding the BO edge, the 'back foot'.) Or did you mean the front foot doesn't get picked up? (Does anyone actually pick up the front foot on back crossovers?)

[dbny]

Or did you mean the front foot doesn't get picked up? (Does anyone actually pick up the front foot on back crossovers?)

Picking up the crossing foot on B crossovers is a matter of style. Most Russians and some other elite skaters do them that way, but you have to watch carefully to see the foot come up and down a tiny bit just as it crosses. ISI teaches them that way and requires that technique for the earliest test with B crossovers. I hate doing B crossovers that way, preferring to think of them as pull unders.

[sunshinepointe]

I'm soooo confused....

[phoenix]

So a forward progressive is just a non-steppy-over forward crossover? (The 'advanced' crossover with the pretty dance-like quality?)

And how do you do a back crossover without picking up your 'inside' foot (the one riding the BO edge, the 'back foot'.) Or did you mean the front foot doesn't get picked up? (Does anyone actually pick up the front foot on back crossovers?)

1. re. fwd. progressive: Pretty much. Imagine your are going in a circle counter-clockwise. After the push onto the left foot, the right foot strikes the ice on an inside edge, next to & slightly in front of the left foot (which is on an outside edge). But not crossed yet. In other words, if you're looking at your feet while you do this, the right foot strikes at about the "1 o'clock" spot. You have to be on deeply bent knees for this to work. Then the right foot crosses in front of the left foot while still on the ice, as the left foot pushes under to the crossed through position. So if you're doing this in slow motion, both feet are on the ice briefly as they pass each other in the crossing moment. Don't know if that makes sense!

2. Re. back crossovers--it's the outside foot that doesn't lift (The one on an inside edge).

3. The way a dancer does a fwd cross stroke is the same start as the progressive--the foot strikes, uncrossed, on an inside edge. The difference is that as it slides in front of the other foot, it changes over to an outside edge. In my area, that is how the judges want the juvenile cross strokes skated. And it's how a cross stroke would be skated in a compulsory dance (they show up quite often).

[Skate@Delaware]

I think I'm in big trouble. I just practiced for 2 hours this afternoon and can't get off my toepicks in back crossovers! I tried leaning back, putting my weight toward the heel, everything! :frus: And I'm pushing off with my toe on the BI to FO step in the power 3's on the right side.
Try flexing your foot more and push through your heel, and like someone else mentioned, really bend deep and get on your edges-see if that helps.

[sk8er1964]

The cross strokes are actually from the Juvenile test (not Pre-Juv) and the to be skating foot should strike the ice before the cross part and slide over. On the slide over part, to be done textbook fashion, BOTH skates should be on an outside edge. Clear as mud?


That is so not what I have been taught. There is no slide over on either the F or the B cross strokes in Juvenile. I do not think it is possible to be, for example, on a LFO edge and place your R foot onto the ice not crossed over and slide it over if you are doing a RFO edge. Think about it, the arcs of your two feet diverge. Here is what I was taught: The new foot takes the ice on a FO edge crossed over the skating foot at as close to 90' to the long axis as possible. During the push, from the FO edge of the old skating foot, you will be slightly pigeon toed and will have to straighten out your foot to get a properly pointed toe and extension.

My coach just came back from a PSA seminar with judges on the MIF's, and he's told me to do exactly what Techskater's described for the cross strokes on the Novice moves (I didn't do the lower test, so I have to learn the cross strokes as well as the counter pattern). The judges said that is something they are really looking for.

[Joan]

The way a dancer does a fwd cross stroke is the same start as the progressive--the foot strikes, uncrossed, on an inside edge. The difference is that as it slides in front of the other foot, it changes over to an outside edge. In my area, that is how the judges want the juvenile cross strokes skated. And it's how a cross stroke would be skated in a compulsory dance (they show up quite often).

This is how I was taught to do cross-strokes, as well.

[Mrs Redboots]

3. The way a dancer does a fwd cross stroke is the same start as the progressive--the foot strikes, uncrossed, on an inside edge. The difference is that as it slides in front of the other foot, it changes over to an outside edge. In my area, that is how the judges want the juvenile cross strokes skated. And it's how a cross stroke would be skated in a compulsory dance (they show up quite often).The idea is that your free foot is turned in as it comes across the skating foot - you don't pick up the free foot and clonk it down across the skating foot, it's more in front of. Same with a back cross-roll, you don't cross you feet and plonk, you turn your foot out and pass it behind. I don't cross mine enough backwards yet, but that's mostly a matter of flow rather than of position.

As for the difference between a forward progressive run and a forward crossover, my first coach used to say that the difference was "about two inches", in the position where your inside-edge foot went. My present coach says "it's a cross-under rather than a crossover".

I have lots of them in my practice at the moment, mostly one two-beat one followed by one one-beat one, which is hard, but I'm getting well good edges on them!!!! It's working really well, but I have a feeling I'm not "crossing under" enough to suit my coach yet.

[dbny]

3. The way a dancer does a fwd cross stroke is the same start as the progressive--the foot strikes, uncrossed, on an inside edge. The difference is that as it slides in front of the other foot, it changes over to an outside edge.

That makes sense, although I have trouble imagining the Paso Doble done that way because of the tempo.

[phoenix]

That makes sense, although I have trouble imagining the Paso Doble done that way because of the tempo.

That would be why the Paso is a pre-gold level dance! :lol: Those are the hardest steps for most girls, & if you watch someone working on it who's new to the dance, that will probably be the spot they either bail out or lose the timing (my specialty).

The cross steps in that spot are still done the same with the foot/blade technique, but the leg/knee action is different, and you have to stay really pigeon toed all the way through. And if you lean forward the teensiest little bit, all is lost & it's over! :giveup:

[sk8er1964]

3. The way a dancer does a fwd cross stroke is the same start as the progressive--the foot strikes, uncrossed, on an inside edge. The difference is that as it slides in front of the other foot, it changes over to an outside edge. In my area, that is how the judges want the juvenile cross strokes skated. And it's how a cross stroke would be skated in a compulsory dance (they show up quite often).

I tried them today, and yup - there is a brief inside edge before the switch to outside. :D

[MusicSkateFan]

I guess what I wanted to express the other day when I posted here was:

If you concentrate on ABSOLUTE correct edges...everything else will fall in place. Your edge is the foundation...if it is right you will naturally have flo, speed, power, posture, extension...It doesnt matter(IMHO) what the judges are looking for.

This is what my coach has stessed with me and so far I am 3-0 for my first three tests. (Probably justed jinxed myself for the Bronze free but oh well..this will make me work that much harder!) ;)

[icedancer2]

That makes sense, although I have trouble imagining the Paso Doble done that way because of the tempo.

What phoenix said plus they are a LOT shallower.

I recently started working on the Paso again after working on the cross-strokes for the Silver MITF test for about a year. I did them like on the Moves, and my dance coach was like "wha'? -- please make them a lot quicker and shallower!".

[dbny]

What phoenix said plus they are a LOT shallower.


Of necessity, I would imagine 8O

[Thin-Ice]

Did you do the landing position move (alt BO edge glides) in 4 lobes or 5 on each side? I remember some of the kids testing Prelim MIF at a recent test session I watched got marked a tenth above on this move, but they all did it in 4 lobes instead of the usual 5. I was just curious.

Many times the judges give more credit for doing 4 of these instead of 5 -- because if you can cover the distance in 4, you obviously have more POWER than if you need 5 to do it. You really only need to do 2 lobes on each side -- and many skaters find it easier to push out into back crossovers to cover the end of the rink if they only do 4 lobes. Of course, none of this applies if you start by the blue line... and skate only partway down the rink and end with lots of room to spare after the fourth lobe! :lol:

One thing many judges do (subconsciously, I'm sure) is compare how long it takes for a skater to do an element compared to other skaters doing the same elements... less time = more power. But that can be unfair to some skaters if they test at a bigger rink. Jazzpants' primary (and testing) rink is 200' long.. so of course it will take her longer to cover that much ice, compared to some of the other local rinks which are only 185' long... and those may not appear any shorter from the judges' perspective.. but that 15' can make a big difference. And some of the other Bay Area rinks are only 175' or 150' long. So, I try to use that to my advantage. I HATED the Pre-Juvenile Moves "3-Turns in the Field" so I took that test on the 150' length rink. The lobes didn't have to be as big and I didn't have to do as many.. and knowing that made it easier to do them.. but they ALL had to be done right. It worked for me.. I passed that test.

[jazzpants]

Many times the judges give more credit for doing 4 of these instead of 5 -- because if you can cover the distance in 4, you obviously have more POWER than if you need 5 to do it. You really only need to do 2 lobes on each side -- and many skaters find it easier to push out into back crossovers to cover the end of the rink if they only do 4 lobes. Of course, none of this applies if you start by the blue line... and skate only partway down the rink and end with lots of room to spare after the fourth lobe! :lol: Then I'll have to retract this statement...

I did 5 on each side (following whatever pattern is on the USFSA rulebook diagram.)I mixed up the alt backcrossovers to the BO edge with the perimeter back crossovers. I do indeed, do 4 on each side for the 4th move. (No wonder none of the judges made a comment!!! I was a good girl and followed the diagram in the rulebook. :lol: :P ) In fact, I remembered having to adjust my pattern so it's smaller b/c I was starting to hit close to the wall of my test rink at one point, b/c I had been practicing at my weekend rink which is a much bigger rink than my home/test rink. :lol:

My policy is always follow the rulebook to the T... give the judges no weird excuse for not passing you... :P

One thing many judges do (subconsciously, I'm sure) is compare how long it takes for a skater to do an element compared to other skaters doing the same elements... less time = more power. But that can be unfair to some skaters if they test at a bigger rink. Jazzpants' primary (and testing) rink is 200' long.. so of course it will take her longer to cover that much ice, compared to some of the other local rinks which are only 185' long... and those may not appear any shorter from the judges' perspective.. but that 15' can make a big difference. And some of the other Bay Area rinks are only 175' or 150' long. So, I try to use that to my advantage. I HATED the Pre-Juvenile Moves "3-Turns in the Field" so I took that test on the 150' length rink. The lobes didn't have to be as big and I didn't have to do as many.. and knowing that made it easier to do them.. but they ALL had to be done right. It worked for me.. I passed that test.If I try to do that rulebook diagram at my weekend rink, it'll be easier to follow the pattern since I don't have to worry about the wall, but I would have to worry about getting enough "rink coverage." Can't win either way... :roll:

Power was not a concerned for the judges in my case. (In fact I had the comments "GOOD POWER!" on one of the test forms. It was just they thought I was on a flat for a couple of the moves. (i.e. the first and probably the second one too. I don't have the test form for this test with me yet... ours gets mailed about 2 weeks to a month after the test is over.)

Which brings the question... how does one have "good power" but still "skate on flats???" It makes no sense to me since there's no way I could generate "power" if I'm "skating on flats." :?? (And yes, this is for the first and probably second move.) I got dinged by the other two judges who didn't passed me for skating on flats. Power didn't matter to them... :(

[jenlyon60]

You were pushing and generating momentum, but you were stroking onto too much of a flat. Or rather it was not discernable to the judges that you were on the correct edges throughout the whole pattern.

I tend to look at the overall body, but especially the foot/ankle of the skater, in addition to watching the lobe they are making.

On the alternating forward power crossover perimeter stroking, for example, if after you do the initial crossover/progressive, the Left edge goes very diagonal or straight (almost perpendicular to the long axis) instead of "up and around", then the skater is most likely on a flat. If that left edge retrogresses somewhat, then that 3rd edge is most likely on an outside edge.

A lot of skaters, on this move will start on a flat or outside edge then rock over onto the inside edge. If it's not an egregious change of edge, it may be acceptable.

Hope this helps.

[jazzpants]

You were pushing and generating momentum, but you were stroking onto too much of a flat. Or rather it was not discernable to the judges that you were on the correct edges throughout the whole pattern.

I tend to look at the overall body, but especially the foot/ankle of the skater, in addition to watching the lobe they are making.

On the alternating forward power crossover perimeter stroking, for example, if after you do the initial crossover/progressive, the Left edge goes very diagonal or straight (almost perpendicular to the long axis) instead of "up and around", then the skater is most likely on a flat. If that left edge retrogresses somewhat, then that 3rd edge is most likely on an outside edge.AHHHHH!!! I didn't realize there is a certain amount of retrogressing that's allowed!!! I was under the assumption that one must NEVER retrogress!!! 8O

Is this the same case for the 5 step mohawk move as well? If so, where are the spots where judges expects/allows some amount of retrogress? I'm playing around w/the 3rd and 4th step. (Primary coach had to adjust my 5 step once a few months back b/c he thought it was retrogressing too much and was concerned the judges were gonna ding me for that.)

[phoenix]

A word of caution there--in my area the judges will totally nail you for retrogressing.

But there's a also a big difference between skating in true 1/2 circle lobes & skating in shallow curves that never get you back to where you need to be. Just like in dance patterns, every lobe of a moves pattern has to start & end going straight at the SIDE wall, not down ice. Your coaches are watching for this, I'm sure. My first coach used to say, you have to skate edges that look like happy face smiles, not eye lashes. :D (we don't have a smilie that quite shows it right.....)

[Debbie S]

A lot of skaters, on this move will start on a flat or outside edge then rock over onto the inside edge. If it's not an egregious change of edge, it may be acceptable.
Hey, Jen, can you judge my test (lol)?

Seriously, I always have this problem on the first LFI step on the forward perimeter. By the second LFI transition, I usually get it looking right (I think), but I feel like the first LFI goes too straight. My coach noted that you do have to step straight out, as opposed to diagonally up/down the ice, and that if you do it right, you will curve along an edge, but I find myself really fighting to get that on the first step.

[jenlyon60]

Agree... there shouldn't be retrogressing... but if there's only a blade length or so that's flat to an outside edge on this MIF, that's not enough retrogressing to merit calling it such.

Now, on the double back outside edges (LBO-RBO and RBO-LBO) in the European Waltz or the double back outside swings in the American Waltz, there definitely shouldn't be any retrogressing... OTOH, it seems to be very prevalent in the American. Last season, it seemed like half the Novice teams competing the American Waltz had serious retrogressing. And some of these were the higher placing Novice teams.


A word of caution there--in my area the judges will totally nail you for retrogressing.

But there's a also a big difference between skating in true 1/2 circle lobes & skating in shallow curves that never get you back to where you need to be. Just like in dance patterns, every lobe of a moves pattern has to start & end going straight at the SIDE wall, not down ice. Your coaches are watching for this, I'm sure. My first coach used to say, you have to skate edges that look like happy face smiles, not eye lashes. :D (we don't have a smilie that quite shows it right.....)

[jenlyon60]

Make sure you finish each lobe. If you cut the lobe short (on the previous FI, i.e. the FI of the actual crossover/progressive), it's more challenging IMO to do the transition FI (on the other foot) correctly.

And oh yeah... on those power pulls on Adult Silver/Pre-Juv, please don't wobble down the ice relying largely on the momentum picked up from the intro steps or the transition steps from forwards to backwards...

Hey, Jen, can you judge my test (lol)?

Seriously, I always have this problem on the first LFI step on the forward perimeter. By the second LFI transition, I usually get it looking right (I think), but I feel like the first LFI goes too straight. My coach noted that you do have to step straight out, as opposed to diagonally up/down the ice, and that if you do it right, you will curve along an edge, but I find myself really fighting to get that on the first step.

[jazzpants]

A word of caution there--in my area the judges will totally nail you for retrogressing.Here too (in No. Ca!) And I've had heard of one person who had a retry for regressing. That's why I'm asking that question...

But there's a also a big difference between skating in true 1/2 circle lobes & skating in shallow curves that never get you back to where you need to be. Just like in dance patterns, every lobe of a moves pattern has to start & end going straight at the SIDE wall, not down ice. Your coaches are watching for this, I'm sure. My first coach used to say, you have to skate edges that look like happy face smiles, not eye lashes. :D (we don't have a smilie that quite shows it right.....)So this smilies :yum: (w/o the tongue) won't work, huh? :lol:

I guess I'll know more once my coaches starts working me on Bronze moves again. Right now they're more in prep mode for Skate SF/Bronze FS test program/Sectionals.

As far as I know, I am finishing the lobe... so it's probably something very minor to fix but significant enough that they are being nit-picky with me on...

Agree... there shouldn't be retrogressing... but if there's only a blade length or so that's flat to an outside edge on this MIF, that's not enough retrogressing to merit calling it such.So confusing to differentiate between being on a flat and on a curve w/o retrogressing... http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/sillyroll.gif

[jenlyon60]

I spent quite some time working on getting on the proper edges with no retrogressing or flats in that corner, when I had to compete the Blues last year for Pro-Am... In that case it was a Progressive sequence into a deep LFI then do the choctaw onto the RBO. Hard enough solo but very challenging in Foxtrot hold with coach, IMO.

But the result was that the last time coach started making me work on Bronze MIF (which I have yet to test), it was easier for me to get onto a nice LFI.

Having not seriously worked on the Bronze MIF in over a year, my coach said to me 2 weeks ago that he wants me to work on them again for testing. So I have a full plate... Prelim Figures with coach #2, Silver dances and Bronze MIF with coach #1. And after sometime in January/early February, Pro-Am dance assignment with coach #1 (which may or may not include any Silver dances... the last 2 years I've skated up and done Pre-Gold).


So confusing to differentiate between being on a flat and on a curve w/o retrogressing...

[mikawendy]

So confusing to differentiate between being on a flat and on a curve w/o retrogressing... http://degiorgi.math.hr/forum/images/smiles/sillyroll.gif

Jazzpants, I'll second that!

I've always been told that the beginning and end of a lobe is always perpendicular to the axis.... so to do that without being on a flat is done how? By making sure to step with the new skating foot already on an edge? (with lean of body/boot/sole of foot?) Arrrrgh, I'm really confused! Must ask coach about this.

[jenlyon60]

Yes one could be on a flat momentarily ... maybe 1 bladelength at most. If you sustain a flat edge, that is incorrect on the alternating forward power crossovers.

Remember, a lobe is a semi-circle. Not a "U" or a warped half-circle.

At the moment of lobe and foot change, your new skating foot should be placed on the ice on the new edge and you push onto that new edge (lifting the hip of the free side almost immediately helps alot).

I have been working on Preliminary figures and this has been my biggest bugaboo outside of surviving the Waltz 8 as a figure. I tend to stay on a flat or nearly so for about 3 blade lengths on each circle. I'm gradually training myself out of it with using a scribe.

[icedancer2]

Yes one could be on a flat momentarily Remember, a lobe is a semi-circle. Not a "U" or a warped half-circle.


Truer words have never been spoken! I am getting really tired of seeing those lobes that look more like SQUARES!!

[kar5162]

it's kind of the difference between a smiley face and a square. you can get back to the axis by doing a half a circle (correct edges) or making a kind of box (too much on flats).

xxxxx
x
x
x
xxxxx

__xxxx
xx
x
xx
__xxxx

(had to insert the underscores as additional boxes kept coming in)

[jazzpants]

You know, I'm almost tempted to just overdo the curve, just so at least I can show that I AM on a curve!!! Knowing me, I just might end up correcting the problem instead!!! :twisted: :lol: :P (Sorta like the theory that when you think you've bended your knee deep enough, bend even DEEPER!!!) :lol: