How do you know if Someone is cheating a Jump?

[rf3ray]

How do you know if someone is cheating a Jump?

[tidesong]

When after they land. You look at the tracing and see if there is a hook on the landing so it looks like an upside down U or a three turn on the landing.
Visually, I am rather bad at telling, but you try to spot them doing that U or the three turn on the landing. It is hard for me to differentiate between a very small jump or a cheated jump.

[*JennaD*]

Ya pretty much what tidesong said...if they don't land completely backwards and you can see that they turned a bit on the ice, its cheated.

[slusher]

There's also takeoff cheats, they're harder to tell if you haven't done them yourself :twisted:

Since all jumps turn on the toepick on the take off, it's important to look at the position of the torso, some take off cheats are almost 3/4 of a turn on the ice before liftoff. Probably the easiest example to recognize is a toe-waltz instead of a toeloop.

[mikawendy]

Another takeoff cheat is in the loop jump, with nearly 3/4 revolution before the takeoff. (I know because I used to and still sometimes do this, alas. :evil: )

On a regular loop, there would be about 1/4 revolution before takeoff (the "hook"), but it's cheated if the skater stays on the ice too long. The cheated takeoff for the loop can look like nearly a backspin with a little hop on the end.

[cutiesk8r43]

some people cheat on axels and how you can tell is how they're opening is if they are already turned before they even jump or some people just whip into the jump
~cutie ;)

[Chico]

If your the observer often you can tell just by watching. If your the skater you might need to look at your tracings. Your mind might lie but the ice won't.

Chico

[techskater]

There are many ways to tell a cheat and sometimes it's by sound! LOL!

Landings will have three turns or hooks.

Take offs - if you watch and a skater turns forward on the ice before jumping a salchow, it's cheated, same for a toe loop. Loops are a little harder to see, but on the ice if you see a flag take off, it's cheated.

It takes a practiced eye to catch it if you are watching and skaters and coaches can be pretty good at disguising it in programs by putting a jump in a place where the judges have to give them the benefit of the doubt because they cannot see it!

[stardust skies]

There are many ways to tell a cheat and sometimes it's by sound! LOL!

Landings will have three turns or hooks.

Take offs - if you watch and a skater turns forward on the ice before jumping a salchow, it's cheated, same for a toe loop. Loops are a little harder to see, but on the ice if you see a flag take off, it's cheated.

It takes a practiced eye to catch it if you are watching and skaters and coaches can be pretty good at disguising it in programs by putting a jump in a place where the judges have to give them the benefit of the doubt because they cannot see it!

Actually, the salchow and the loop are the only two jumps that are *supposed* to be cheated. The skater is supposed to turn forward on the edge before jumping a salchow. Trust me, if you don't, you'll never get a double, and even less a triple. It's part of the technique, and it's correct. Which is why some coaches talk their students into thinking salchows and loops are really only half jumps- and truly, they are. Loops also need to be turned onto the edge to make a successful jump. On both the salchow and loop, you will see a little "v" at the end of the take off edge, and that's how you know you're doing it right. You should NOT see these on the axel, toe loop, flip, or lutz. As to the landing, it's pretty obvious to see even if you're not seeing the tracing...the skater lands in any position other than backwards. Watch the foot- if a jump is cheated, it will turn very quickly from a sideways (or even worse, forward) position to a backwards one, and create a little hook. For best display of this, watch Kimmie Meissner's "triple axel" from 2005 Nationals. Textbook cheat, half a turn (which should make the jump downgraded to a double, with a negative GOE, but COP wasn't in effect yet. This year, she's getting nailed for it..)

[Melzorina]

Yea, I was led to believe that when you jump a salchow you take off on your toepick? That's why a single salchow is only a half revolution jump... I think

[skaternum]

Yea, I was led to believe that when you jump a salchow you take off on your toepick? That's why a single salchow is only a half revolution jump... I thinkALL jumps take off on the toepick. That doesn't make it a half revolution. A single salchow is NOT a half revolution jump.

[MQSeries]

ALL jumps take off on the toepick. That doesn't make it a half revolution. A single salchow is NOT a half revolution jump.

What Stardust Skies said about the salchow and loop is correct. But on all jumps, no one jump straight up and then rotate. There's about 1/2 pre-rotation on all the jumps.
It's a half revolution jump more or less. By the time your toe-pick leaves the ice, your entire body is basically facing almost completely forward. For any single jump to be a true 1 revolution jump, you would have to jump straight up without any pre-rotation whatsoever and then rotate 360 at the top of the jump. No one does that, because It's nearly impossible to do.

[skaternum]

It's a half revolution jump more or less.I'd say "less." :) For any single jump to be a true 1 revolution jump, you would have to jump straight up without any pre-rotation whatsoever and then rotate 360 at the top of the jump. No one does that, because It's nearly impossible to do.True, but I didn't say that 360 degrees is rotated in the air. Having a small amount of pre-rotation is necessary for any jump, but that doesn't mean a single salchow is a half-revolution jump. It is no more a half revolution jump than any other single jump which takes off from the toepick (all of them) and has a small amount of pre-rotation (all of them).

[jenlyon60]

What Stardust Skies said about the salchow and loop is correct. But on all jumps, no one jump straight up and then rotate. There's about 1/2 pre-rotation on all the jumps.
It's a half revolution jump more or less. By the time your toe-pick leaves the ice, your entire body is basically facing almost completely forward. For any single jump to be a true 1 revolution jump, you would have to jump straight up without any pre-rotation whatsoever and then rotate 360 at the top of the jump. No one does that, because It's nearly impossible to do.

If I see someone facing forwards as they execute a "toe loop" and it's a test other than Pre-Prelim FS or possibly Prelim FS, I will definitely comment on the test paper, and if all or most of the single jumps (talking Pre-Juv & Juv FS here, possibly Prelim) have significant pre-rotation, I would probably not only comment on the technical aspects but use my technical mark to reflect my concerns.

[MQSeries]

If I see someone facing forwards as they execute a "toe loop" and it's a test other than Pre-Prelim FS or possibly Prelim FS, I will definitely comment on the test paper, and if all or most of the single jumps (talking Pre-Juv & Juv FS here, possibly Prelim) have significant pre-rotation, I would probably not only comment on the technical aspects but use my technical mark to reflect my concerns.

Ok, I agree on a toe-loop if you're facing forward before you get off the ice then it's bad. If you break the jump down and freeze-framed it, when your toe-pick taps the ice, the entire body is really facing sideway in order for your entire upper body and skating leg to glide towards the toe-picking leg, kick through and lift yourself into the air. So it's not really a full revolution jump. After staying away from the ice for 3 years and never was able to get the 2toe consistent regardless of the hours of lessons, I finally got my 2toe consistent this summer teaching myself by breaking the jump down that way.

For the salchow, take a look at the picture of Nancy Kerrigan doing a 2sal in her skating book. Just before her body is off the ice and at the point where her body is entirely balanced on the top of the skating leg's toe-pick, her entire body is practically facing forward. The key is to do it fluidly (sp?) and quick and with finess from the entrance of the jump through the take-off so that people don't notice the facing forward part.

[stardust skies]

To add to what MQseries is saying- watch any of the kids learning their double and triple salchows...the coach makes them do it in slow motion with a check at the end of the three turn, and then slowwwwwwwwly pushing the leg up and through...AS they turn on the ice and put their body and arms forward...then simulate the jump. It's hard to see prerotation on loop and salchow because it's supposed to be there- it doesn't look wrong, and if done correctly, you shouldn't even notice it. But it's there. Otherwise, doubles and triples will NEVER happen.

I also agree that the toe loop shouldn't be prerotated by more than... 5 percent- but that 5 percent is crucial...you don't pick and spring up in the air and THEN start to turn...you pick and AS you pick the skating leg goes up and bends as it turns to initiation rotation..there's no rotation without momentum, and no momentum without the leg kicking up before you're completely airbone...because you are trying to get the right leg over to the left side...the only way it can be done is AS you leave the ice-after that it's too late.

The salchow and the loop are probably 45%-47% cheated, and they're supposed to be. It is physically impossible to do anything more than a single without having the momentum of the toepick "hook" to throw you in the air on edge jumps- even a single would look really bizzare with no hook. I've passed all of my tests save for Senior Free (I could, though) and I have NEVER had negative comments on these two jumps from any judge. So either we are misunderstanding each other (totally possible) or you are taking points away from kids unfairly because that is how it is taught, and they're doing it right. I'm just talking about salchow and loop...toe loop isn't a FULL single, but it's close and so is the flip, and the lutz is a true full jump because while it might have the 2% or so prerotating that comes from the skating leg kicking up and rotating you around, a true lutz is done from an outside edge and thus you start from further out and that extra little centimiter pretty much makes up the difference of prerotation.

Phew.

[NoVa Sk8r]

I agree that the salchow and loop are "half jumps" (and definitely more so for the salchow). The tracing on the ice reveals this.

And I think that's why the single flip is so hard for so many folks--they are going from the salchow and loop (half jumps) to the nearly full rev on the flip.

[Chico]

I agree with stardust skies. Well, my coach does. =-) Even the toe has a half rotation, (set up) on the ice before a double. Or in reality an axel. This wasn't what I was told by my old coach, but it makes sense to me. Better yet, I've had some positive results thinking this way.

Chico

[jenlyon60]

I'm talking mostly about the salchows where the skater rides the BI edge around to the point where all they do is a waltz jump, and the toe loops that are really toe waltzes, or the single axels with so much pre-rotation on the ice that the skater is over halfway through the "full revolution" part of the jump before leaving the ice, then lands more than 1/4 rotation cheated.

Usually the worse of these issues disappear by the time the skater has mastered the 2S/2T, although I've seen a lot of skaters do double salchows with so much pre-rotation/landing cheat and so little height and difference that it is obvious that the double jump isn't really a double or a jump.

That's the jump cheating I'm talking about.



I also agree that the toe loop shouldn't be prerotated by more than... 5 percent- but that 5 percent is crucial...you don't pick and spring up in the air and THEN start to turn...you pick and AS you pick the skating leg goes up and bends as it turns to initiation rotation..there's no rotation without momentum, and no momentum without the leg kicking up before you're completely airbone...because you are trying to get the right leg over to the left side...the only way it can be done is AS you leave the ice-after that it's too late.

The salchow and the loop are probably 45%-47% cheated, and they're supposed to be. It is physically impossible to do anything more than a single without having the momentum of the toepick "hook" to throw you in the air on edge jumps- even a single would look really bizzare with no hook. I've passed all of my tests save for Senior Free (I could, though) and I have NEVER had negative comments on these two jumps from any judge. So either we are misunderstanding each other (totally possible) or you are taking points away from kids unfairly because that is how it is taught, and they're doing it right. I'm just talking about salchow and loop...toe loop isn't a FULL single, but it's close and so is the flip, and the lutz is a true full jump because while it might have the 2% or so prerotating that comes from the skating leg kicking up and rotating you around, a true lutz is done from an outside edge and thus you start from further out and that extra little centimiter pretty much makes up the difference of prerotation.

Phew.

[skaternum]

In the context of talking about cheating jumps, if you've got a single jump that pre-rotates 50% of the rotation on the ice, it's cheated. So calling a single a half-revolution jump means that pre-rotating half your jump on the ice is acceptable. It's not. That's cheated. A small amount of pre-rotation is necessary, but not half your jump. Not on singles. You should be able to do a single loop without doing half of it on the ice.

[sunshinepointe]

Wait, you're supposed to pre-rotate the loop on the ice? :frus:

[NoVa Sk8r]

In the context of talking about cheating jumps, if you've got a single jump that pre-rotates 50% of the rotation on the ice, it's cheated. So calling a single a half-revolution jump means that pre-rotating half your jump on the ice is acceptable. It's not. That's cheated. A small amount of pre-rotation is necessary, but not half your jump. Not on singles. You should be able to do a single loop without doing half of it on the ice.I think that's just a matter of semantics. You enter the jump backward on an inside edge. By the time the blade leaves the ice, you are actually facing forward. You do the math. 8-)

(And whoever heard of a "half-salchow" anyway?)