Questions about silver ladies

[Jennifer28]

Hi everyone. Please tell me what the silver ladies are doing in their programs. Please, I want details of what’s going on especially at adult nationals. One of my skater friends said that you don’t need an axel to be competitive but then she said that the top silver I ladies at nationals this year had at least one axel. If a person competes with nice combo spins, nice solo jumps, one jump combo and maybe some footwork can they do well at today’s standards? I would like to know what I need to work on in the future. I am particularly interested in the silver I and II ladies events but I’ll take details/elements from other levels/age groups as well. Thanks everyone. :?:

[Mel On Ice]

I'm a bronze, but "coached" my friend at Nationals who made final round Silver. If you are what is now a Silver Lady IV (46-55), no one even attempted an axel. My friend had 2 lutz combos (lz/l and lz/t), a flip sequence, a camel/sit/back sit, 2 step sequences, and a spiral sequence. I think she had some solo jumps too.

[Mel On Ice]

Hi everyone. Please tell me what the silver ladies are doing in their programs. Please, I want details of what’s going on especially at adult nationals. One of my skater friends said that you don’t need an axel to be competitive but then she said that the top silver I ladies at nationals this year had at least one axel. If a person competes with nice combo spins, nice solo jumps, one jump combo and maybe some footwork can they do well at today’s standards? I would like to know what I need to work on in the future. I am particularly interested in the silver I and II ladies events but I’ll take details/elements from other levels/age groups as well. Thanks everyone. :?:

Sorry I missed you referring to I and II. I think at the younger ages, you will need an axel for the top spot. I think speed and sureness of elements is important too. Combo jumps and spins are definitely necessary.

[LoopLoop]

I compete in silver ladies II (well, with the new age classes it will be III) and while the axel is nice to have, it won't help if your basic skating isn't strong. Given two skaters with equal speed and stroking, the axel will make a difference, but it is not necessary, at least in silver II. I believe that only two skaters landed *clean* axels in the final round. I qualified for the final with these program elements: salchow, loop, camel-sit-backsit, flip, lutz-toe, back camel, loop-loop, sitspin. I also had connecting elements throughout including spirals and bauers, and very few crossovers.

In class I, the final round of silver ladies this year were all impressive. In that group there were more axels, but the skaters were also strong all-around skaters.

I've talked to a few judges about the axel/no-axel issue, and they've been unanimous in their opinion: they prefer to see a strong overall program, and if the skater tries an axel they don't want to see the skater come to almost a standstill before jumping and then cheat the jump anyway.

[skatingatty]

You can be competitive without an axel, but if you want to win in Silver I, you should have an axel jump with all the other elements. I don't think I'm in Silver I anymore, but I'm hoping by next spring, my new program will have at least one axel attempt (I haven't tried one in 4 months due to surgery, and it might've disappeared for good :( ), lutz-loop-loop, flip-loop-loop, all the other jumps, spirals, footwork, and spins (layback, flying sit, camel-sit-layback-back sit-back upright). In my old program, my coach put in 2 axels, one in combination, but I could never land both in run-throughs. I was lucky if I could land the 1st one. Rather than flubbing up all over the place, I'm not going to be as ambitious next time. :)

[Debbie S]

....they don't want to see the skater come to almost a standstill before jumping and then cheat the jump anyway.

Hmmm, that describes most of my loop jumps - lol! Seriously, I think this applies to every level. I've competed at Pre-Bronze where skaters with not as much jump content as the others (maybe only a toe, sal, and waltz-toe) place higher b/c of their better overall skating. Some of these skaters I suspect have strong ice dance backgrounds given the connecting steps and other elements they do, but the lesson I've learned is that judges want to see a program skated with good speed and flow, with elements done well. This differs a bit from the kids' comps, IMO, where judges seem to prefer skaters who attempt axels or doubles (or triples) over skaters who skate well without the harder elements.

[NaomiBeth1]

if you want to win in Silver I, you should have an axel jump with all the other elements

To win yes, it would help to have an axel in Silver I or (new Silver II), but to compete competitively, I don't think you need it. Very few Silver I's had a clean (non-cheated) axel at nationals. Almost all top skaters began with a solid lutz-loop.

I fell on my only axel attempt in qualifying round, and still made finals, but I wonder if I would have placed even better had I not attempted it, and not fallen. After reviewing the qualifying tape from nationals, several skaters were lacking on their spins, and I definately think judges rewarded for good ones (centered with enough rotation), and impressive circular/straightline footwork.

[kar5162]

I watched Silver I and part of Silver II (couldn't compete this year) and have to say I was very unimpressed with most skaters spins. There were people who could do the axel, but often they couldn't spin well at all. Strong skating combined with well executed jumps and spins within your current range of good skills should perform well. I would focus on performing elements you are strong at, with 1 to maybe 2 "reach" elements. More than that and it often just looks like the skater is struggling. Some will have the axel, but some will have much better spins or footwork.

[icecatepairs]

the old axel question eh? ok I have to seriously say that usually 2 axels take it in silver 1 . (along with strong spins and skating skills of course...) in 2003 my friend won silver 2 with no axels. in 2004 i won silver 1 with 2 axels. only one or two people made finals without it, and one placed fourth with no axel...better to not attempt than to waxel i think..but with the new judging system who knows ..even though they are not using it yet for adults..the judges are thinking this way from judging other events. it will be interesting to see...it seems like entrnces to spins, combos, and fw can raise your start value a lot! good luck..... :)

[Geek Skater]

in 2004 i won silver 1 with 2 axels. only one or two people made finals without it, and one placed fourth with no axel...
Correction: Maya Buchanan won Bronze in Silver I in 2004 without an axel. IIRC, the top two each landed 2 clean axels, one in combination.

[pennybeagle]

The top three ladies in Silver I this past year all landed at least one axel in the final round out of two attempts. IIRC, Michelle Lotz(1) and Heather Hilgar(2) both fell on their second axels, but had one clean one earlier. I think Valerie Zabriskie(3) may have two-footed her second one as well, but I wasn't in a position to see it clearly--she did not fall, however. Erica Hartl(4) attempted an axel but it was incomplete, and Maya Buchanan(5) did not attempt one. All of them are very strong skaters with excellent speed, carriage, musicality, and spins. The top three ladies had a solid flying camel and at least one other "plus" spin. Erica had a lovely camel-back camel. Maya had the best layback in the competition (something like 7+ revolutions?).

As far as the axel goes...well, I landed an axel in qualifying for Silver I, but I completely missed all of my spins, my footwork, and my final jump sequence. I also skated tentatively after falling on my footwork to start my program. I did not qualify, nor did I expect to, nor should I have--apart from the excitement of it being my first nationals and the fact that I landed the stinking axel for the first time in competition, the program was an utter disaster--upon review, I was horrified to discover that I only managed to cleanly execute 4 out of 11 planned elements (and that's if you include the scratchy lutz-loop) and sat down on the ice twice. :frus: But oh well. That's what next year is for, right?

The name of the game (IMO) is a clean, well-balanced program. Your jumps, spins, footwork, and basic skating skills should all complement each other. You shouldn't have one obviously weak area. So if you have a good lutz-loop but are not as strong in spinning/footwork/stroking, or whatever, then I would work on getting all of the levels of your skating even and not stress out about the axel.

The best thing to do is to go to one of the adult competitions (like Peach, Halloween Classic, Buckeye, etc. in the fall) and see what people are doing, keeping in mind that the programs will most likely see an upgrade by nationals.

Hey NaomiBeth, I didn't get a chance to meet you at nationals, but I did see you skate! You were wonderful--congrats on qualifying. Hope to see you again so I can properly introduce myself! ;)

[flo]

I placed 4th at AN finals with no axel in Silver 2 a few years ago. In the other years I competed FS, with the exception of this year, I've always made finals and ended up around 5th or 6th without an axel. I don't think I'm even interested in freestyle anymore. We'll see with the COP changes.

[coskater64]

In 2002 I skate silver ladies II. I had two clean axels for qr and for final I did 3 clean axels, while I spun well and did novice level footwork I had no extension, no grace and no feel for my music. I came in 3rd out of the 3 groups they had that year. The winner had lovely edge quality, good extension, and very good spin positions, she also had good expression.

Because you are in 1 you will need an axel for your group unless you can do something breath taking-- a solid beilman, and a certain ease and effortlessness are really important. But, don't do an axel if you can't land it cleanly, do what you do well. That is especially important to remember w/ the NJS coming into play not this year but next.

[PattyP]

In 2003 I had to take my axel out (along with a few other elements) for Silver II final round due to an ankle injury, I skated a nice clean program as there was no pressure with the axel removed. I ended up 5th, my best placing ever. The 1st place skater that year skated a clean program with 1 axel.

In 2004, the 1st place Silver II had no axel, however she had beautiful edges, great speed and flow over the ice and nice high jumps. The type of skating that most of us AOS are not able to perform. In the same event, I managed to screw up both axels (2-footed), but I had nice spins. Ended up 6th.

[Jennifer28]

Thank you everyone for answering my questions. This is good information about the silver ladies groups. It looks like the axel is a very good thing to have if clean, but also it looks like the judges like to see a well balanced program too. I went ahead and tried to do some research myself and looked at some old results too. Everyone it looks like a a few of the same names stay in that silver level for quite some time. Why us that? If you look at old results from two or three years back you notice the same names. Some of those names have placed well almost each year. I am curious if this is normal. At the slow rate of my own personal progress I think that I will be one of those who will be in silver for quite some time.

[JulieN]

Everyone it looks like a a few of the same names stay in that silver level for quite some time. Why us that? If you look at old results from two or three years back you notice the same names. Some of those names have placed well almost each year. I am curious if this is normal.
I just passed my Silver FS last December. I suspect I will be in Silver forever, as I don't think I'll ever pass the Gold FS as I don't expect I'll ever land the axel. I'm OK with that.

[pennybeagle]

I also passed my silver FS last winter (November)...I have yet to pass my gold moves, but hope to in the next few months. Even so, I suspect that it will be a while before I take my gold FS. In practice, I have a lot of neat skills--I have a fairly consistent axel and an on-and-off double sal and double loop, and some pretty good spins and footwork... but that's all in practice.

I am the world's worst competitor. I am the type of skater who makes her coach cry or bang her head against a wall. I fall in every competition--I have yet to skate in a competition and stay upright the entire time in a freestyle program. I fell an average of once a program in my one year at bronze, and last year I fell an average of twice a program at silver in competition.

So. I won't be moving up to any higher levels until I can learn to deal with nerves...and who knows--maybe that will take 20 years! (Let's hope not...) :roll:

[stardust skies]

Hmmm, that describes most of my loop jumps - lol! Seriously, I think this applies to every level. I've competed at Pre-Bronze where skaters with not as much jump content as the others (maybe only a toe, sal, and waltz-toe) place higher b/c of their better overall skating. Some of these skaters I suspect have strong ice dance backgrounds given the connecting steps and other elements they do, but the lesson I've learned is that judges want to see a program skated with good speed and flow, with elements done well. This differs a bit from the kids' comps, IMO, where judges seem to prefer skaters who attempt axels or doubles (or triples) over skaters who skate well without the harder elements.

Oh yes, it definitely differs from standard track! As I was reading "judges prefer clean programs than cheated jumps" my eyeballs almost fell out of their sockets, haha. I think the way it is with adults is the way it should be for everyone though. Better skating, spins, transitions, and clean jumps, even if they're less advanced, should earn a skater a higher spot than someone with sloppy skating,no transitions, and cheated jumps, IMO. Just doesn't work out that way for us. :(

[techskater]

Many people get "stuck" in Silver due to either no axel or the MIF. Before 9/1 that blasted Novice move is required which is a real cause for angst. I moved up before the MIF requirement but it will be at least another 9 months before I even consider taking my Intermediate FS, although hopefully I will be done with the Intermediate MIF by Thursday ::Fingers crossed::

[mikawendy]

:) Good luck on the intermediate MIF test, techskater!

[doubletoe]

Thank you everyone for answering my questions. This is good information about the silver ladies groups. It looks like the axel is a very good thing to have if clean, but also it looks like the judges like to see a well balanced program too. I went ahead and tried to do some research myself and looked at some old results too. Everyone it looks like a a few of the same names stay in that silver level for quite some time. Why us that? If you look at old results from two or three years back you notice the same names. Some of those names have placed well almost each year. I am curious if this is normal. At the slow rate of my own personal progress I think that I will be one of those who will be in silver for quite some time.

I have talked to a few people who have been in Silver for awhile and it's usually either that they can't move up without an axel and are having trouble getting it, or they just feel like they need to have a more consistent axel and a double or two before moving up to Gold. But I think in most cases it's the axel that's the barrier. . .