Shakeup in Junior Dance

[quark]

Over on FSU, Gary Cochran has just reported that Ralph & O'Meara have split. Wow, this is really going to affect Junior Dance this year! It's a shame that one of the most talented teams in the USA has called it quits after only a couple of years.

This will have a big impact on Nationals competition! Looks like Matthews and Zavozin could have a real shot at a medal. A'course they got Russell and Metzgers, Frisch and Bommentre, Steed and Hill and Devins and O'Keefe all looking to medal.

Welcome to the ever changing world of Junior Ice Dance. I don't remember Detroit ever being without a Junior Dance team on the World scene.

[Trillian]

I'd bet on Matthews & Zavozin and Donowick & Ungar getting the last two spots on the JGP now.

It'll be interesting to see who wins the junior title now, since I think R&O were about as close to a sure thing as you could get. Frisch & Bommentre are next in line based on nationals, but I'm guessing Russell & Metzger could be a real threat. Matthews & Zavozin could be medal contenders, but their compulsories still seem to be their weakness. I do think they'll be on top among the teams coming out of novice this year, though international results may affect that if one of the other teams does better on the JGP. Devins & O'Keefe and Steed & Hill should also be top contenders; one or both of them will probably figure into the top four. Donowick & Ungar look like the new team most likely to land in the top six, if any of them do.

[Dustin]

I saw Matthews and Zavozin practice last night and they really seem to be stronger than even a few weeks ago. I really haven't seen many dance teams live, but their programs are very good and I wouldn't be suprised to see them winning Nationals, or at least on the podium.

[JKlink]

The talk at Lake Placid was that Kenny Metzger was still having medical problems, so they might not be a factor this year. LP was a strong junior event and with 4 of the top 6 or 7 juniors going head to head in Huntsville, the results might help determine some of the JGP slots. I think you have to include Solomon/Cohen in the top 6 as they placed very well against many of the teams mention above. Davis/White is the couple that I have some questions about as the only competed the FD at LP. JK

[Aaron W]

*sigh* :(

Very unfortunate as I really thought highly of these two last season.

Best of luck to both of them.

[Jack]

Originally posted by JKlink
Davis/White is the couple that I have some questions about as the only competed the FD at LP. JK

They only competed FD because he had injured his foot. I really though they looked fantastic. Maybe still lacking in the expressions department, but I have to give them kudos to at least skating seeing as how he couldn't even walk after the performance. Pretty gutsy kid. I am keeping my fingers crossed for this team this year. I hope they have a great season. I love their Free dance this year, suits them perfectly. And they always have strong comp, for smaller people, they have amazing edges and depth.

Good Luck Davis and White!

[Marney]

Is there an official reason for the split?

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Marney
Is there an official reason for the split?

You mean more specific than "They've decided not to continue skating together?" ;)

Seriously, although skaters may sometimes give "official" reasons, it usually doesn't get any more specific than that unless the split occurs because one of the skaters isn't continuing in the sport. Then you'll get the blanket "so-and-so wants to go school/coach/etc." It appears that both of these two are planning to seek new partners, so you're not likely to get a detailed explanation. (You may get one through the gossip mill, but then it's not likely to be terribly accurate.) There are almost always a number of factors involved and frequently the two sides of the story may be pretty different. That's why I've tried to make it a practice to not ask why when a pairs or dance team splits.

[habanero]

As a small update on Russell-Metzger, I've heard they are doing quite well -- and are even stronger than last year at Nationals. The little bit I've heard about their OD and FD is that they are exceptional and clearly Senior level in difficulty.

Kenny Metzger was apparently injured in the spring, had surgery, and did not skate for a couple of months afterwards. My guess is that they probably weren't quite ready for Lake Placid since they entered only the compulsories. I would also guess that they withdrew to get their OD and FD ready for the JGP in Yugoslavia.

[habanero]

Sorry to hear of the breakup of Ralph-O'Mera. They were a good team and will be missed.

[habanero]

A bit more on S.F. Bay Area skaters: As everyone already knows, Donowick-Unger made a really good showing at Lake Placid and should do very well this year. Besides Russell-Metzger and Donowick-Unger, there appear to be several more teams, or pieces thereof, training with Klimova/Ponomarenko in San Jose. They appear to range from Junior level down to about the Intermediate level.

I do really love K+P's choreography and all the teams (or pieces thereof -- I really haven't been able to sort it all out) seem to be developing very nicely. Dance is alive and well in San Jose -- the place seems to be emerging as a training center for Dancers. I wouldn't be at all surprised if K+P had 2 teams in the envelope this Fall.

Andrew Smith may have a new partner -- I'm not sure if this is a fact yet, but he has apparently been seen skating in San Jose with one particular young lady for at least a few months.

[Icesk8dance]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Trillian
[B]I'd bet on Matthews & Zavozin and Donowick & Ungar getting the last two spots on the JGP now.

The USFSA web site currently shows 9 TBA openings on the JGP circuit. Will the current teams listed be given a second or third assignment? Not sure how all this works, could someone explain? Thanks.

[habanero]

Originally posted by Icesk8dance
The USFSA web site currently shows 9 TBA openings on the JGP circuit. Will the current teams listed be given a second or third assignment? Not sure how all this works, could someone explain? Thanks. [/B]

Generally, if a team gets one spot, then there is a potential second JGP avaliable. Apparently the USFSA will look at a team's performance on the first one and decide whether or not to send them to the second. Right now, the only Junior team with 2 "guaranteed" is GR-M.

F-B didn't compete in all events at Lake Placid and R-M didn't compete in Lake Placid at all. I suspect this makes filling out the roster for the JGPs much more difficult this year. There is clearly room to add 1 more team, and with a poor showing by one of those already going, perhaps 2 more. It is tough to predict what is going to happen.

[AxelAnnie22]

Originally posted by Trillian

That's why I've tried to make it a practice to not ask why when a pairs or dance team splits.

Gosh Trillian you are such a good person! How do you overcome your curiosity?

PS I am not being sarcastic! I wish I could control myself!

[butterfly]

For the curious....it is well known at DSC that it was Melissa Ralph that cut Ryan O'Meara loose :)

[JKlink]

Originally posted by habanero
[B]
Generally, if a team gets one spot, then there is a potential second JGP avaliable. Apparently the USFSA will look at a team's performance on the first one and decide whether or not to send them to the second. IMO, this situation reflects badly on the USFSA and hurts Team USA as these teams will be worrying about placing above each other rather than skating for the USA. I think they would all skate with more confidence if they didn't have to worry about anything but just skating well. If the USFSA has questions about some of the teams, that shouldn't keep them from awarding spots to teams like Matthews & Zavozin and others who skated so well at LP.

We have 2 teams competing in France and 4 teams at Huntsville this week, now would be a good time for the USFSA to give these teams a vote of confidence. JK

[Erin F]

Originally posted by JKlink
IMO, this situation reflects badly on the USFSA and hurts Team USA as these teams will be worrying about placing above each other rather than skating for the USA. I think they would all skate with more confidence if they didn't have to worry about anything but just skating well. If the USFSA has questions about some of the teams, that shouldn't keep them from awarding spots to teams like Matthews & Zavozin and others who skated so well at LP.


I disagree that it's a bad practice to wait for the results of the first event before awarding the second. This way skaters that have a chance at making the final will be sure to be awarded a second event. To use a Canadian example, if Skate Canada had used previous results, summer competitions, etc to decide all of the assignments I don't think Cynthia Phaneuf would have been awarded two spots since she'd only been 6th in novice the previous year. But since SC left some spots open, when Cynthia won her first event she was given another assignment as a chance to make the final (and she did!) I think it's much better to take the wait and see approach, especially when federations don't have to name the skaters until 31 days before the event starts.

[haribobo]

JK-- I see what you are saying but disagree that it puts too much additional pressure on the skaters. Every fall and winter eligible event counts in the way the USFSA views your standing and ability. Nothing is going to change that. There is no reason we should baby our skaters-- these are important events and how they finish there *should* matter. These skaters should already know that they will not get preference for future assignments if they don't do well internationally. That's just the way the world works.....

[JKlink]

If you have to go to a JGP and skate well to get an assignment, then you have 6 teams for 9 slots and that meets the limit of 2 assignments for each team with 3 left. If the NAC in Huntsville is used, then they could be short 1 slot if they want both M/Z & D/U to have 2 slots and give the current JPG competitors another one. Is it possible that they might not fill all the slots? JK

[Icesk8dance]

Originally posted by JKlink
We have 2 teams competing in France and 4 teams at Huntsville this week, now would be a good time for the USFSA to give these teams a vote of confidence. JK

I don't agree that any of the current teams listed for a JGP should be an automatic for a second, they should most certainly have to earn their assignment. I was very impressed with 4 of the new junior teams at Placid and think the USFSA should take a chance on these teams if they meet the age restrictions. JMO

[habanero]

Originally posted by Icesk8dance


I don't agree that any of the current teams listed for a JGP should be an automatic for a second, they should most certainly have to earn their assignment. I was very impressed with 4 of the new junior teams at Placid and think the USFSA should take a chance on these teams if they meet the age restrictions. JMO

I agree that there shouldn't be automatic second's for JGPs. Yet I do wonder if a heavy focus on getting a second JGP is a good one. It could easily cause a team to spend a lot of time on one CD and leave the other CDs a bit lacking. Which cannot be to the benefit of the team.

I won't comment much on the JR teams and how they looked at Lake Placid. I've never been good at projecting forward in time to what a team will look like compared to others by Nationals. Some get a lot better, others stay about the same. Lake Placid occurs very early in the season and many teams are still working on correcting major flaws. Things can change a LOT by the beginning of October!

I will say that I would expect a hold-over FD from the prior year would show better at Placid, but not improve as much as a new FD. And a hold-over FD would allow greater effort to be placed on an OD just prior to Lake Placid. Perhaps a better picture may be gained by the new compulsories -- where all teams start about equal and all likely have about equal time into getting them ready.

[JKlink]

Originally posted by Icesk8dance


I don't agree that any of the current teams listed for a JGP should be an automatic for a second, they should most certainly have to earn their assignment. I was very impressed with 4 of the new junior teams at Placid and think the USFSA should take a chance on these teams if they meet the age restrictions. JMO Are these teams that moved up from Novice, or new teams that are skating together for the first time? JK

[Jack]

I just think it's pretty crappy of the USFSA to say to it's top junior teams that they have to go "prove" themselves first. After the disappointment of not even being able to compete on the JGP circuit last year, this decision seems rather mean. Frisch/Bommentre are currently the first ranked junior team, but they have to go PROVE themselves? I would so mad if I was that team! The USFSA is certaintly not winning any new fans in the dance department... this is putting a lot of stress on these teams.

I can understand team like Mathews/whatshisname having to prove themselves as a first year junior team, or Davis and White having only one assignment. That makes perfect sense. But this whole idea of only getting one assignment for the top junior teams is insane.

And with support like this, the USFSA wonders why teams don't stay together....

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Jack
The USFSA is certaintly not winning any new fans in the dance department... this is putting a lot of stress on these teams.

You seem to be under the impression that the USFSA is specifically targeting dance, but that's not the case. Assignments are being done this way for every discipline this year. Two or three of the top ranked skaters/teams were given two assignments right away, but everyone else has to wait. The two top-ranked junior dance teams were Galler-Rabinowitz & Mitchell and Ralph & O'Meara by a substantial margin, so they were the only two given a second assignment. This isn't any different than in any other discipline--even Alissa Czisny, for example, who has won two international junior events already, has only been given one assignment in the ladies field. The dancers are not being treated poorly because they're dancers.

As for whether it's the right thing to do, I guess it depends on your point of view. As far as I'm concerned, if skaters deserve a second assignment, then they'll do well enough to earn one. Otherwise, if the USFSA names a lower-ranked skater or team to a later event, it gives international experience to a greater variety of skaters. As it is, more skaters stand to benefit here.

[Polish]

Originally posted by Jack
I just think it's pretty crappy of the USFSA to say to it's top junior teams that they have to go "prove" themselves first. After the disappointment of not even being able to compete on the JGP circuit last year, this decision seems rather mean. Frisch/Bommentre are currently the first ranked junior team, but they have to go PROVE themselves? I would so mad if I was that team! The USFSA is certaintly not winning any new fans in the dance department... this is putting a lot of stress on these teams.



Skate Canada has been doing this for about three years now so it's no surprised the USFSA is following suit. If you are unproven on the Junior Grand Prix circuit, you are given an opportunity to skate/place well to be given a second assignment.

Why would SC or USFSA give an unproven dance team two assignments right off the bat? What if they place last or close to last in their first assignment while another team who's only been given one assignment places 3rd or 4th? Makes no sense.

The approach of "excellence is rewarded with opportunity" is a smart one. I'm not the least bit surprised that the USFSA has taken this approach with their junior assignments. Particularly wrt dance.

[Cerulean]

I think that this is perfectly reasonable choice for the USFSA to make, however I think that they should outline criteria for recieving a 2nd assignment, The most that anyone's ever gotten to the final with is a first and a 5th place, so maybe any skaters placing 5th and higher should recieve 2nd assignemnts, my personal preference would be any skaters plaing 3rd or higher in the short, or 4th or higher in the long, and no lower than 5th overall would recieve 2nd assignments.

This proves that they are able to contend for top spots, the way a skater placing 6th in both progrqams and 5th overall would not, and I don't doubt that hte USFSA will not give 2nd assignments, even to those who already 'have' them, if the perform poorly the 1st time out......

BTW, what do people think of the chances of Stacy Carter and Denis Latyshev for being on the JGP? Are they age eligible? They did pretty well in Lake Placid....

[Trillian]

Originally posted by Cerulean
[B]I think that this is perfectly reasonable choice for the USFSA to make, however I think that they should outline criteria for recieving a 2nd assignment, The most that anyone's ever gotten to the final with is a first and a 5th place, so maybe any skaters placing 5th and higher should recieve 2nd assignemnts, my personal preference would be any skaters plaing 3rd or higher in the short, or 4th or higher in the long, and no lower than 5th overall would recieve 2nd assignments.

The problem with this in dance is that we've got a lot of young, untested teams and I doubt most of them are likely to place in the top five in their events. Historically other than maybe two or three top teams, U.S. couples have not done that well on the JGP in dance. My guess is that at least half these skaters, maybe more, will be getting two assignments, so they're going to have to have somewhat looser requirements for dance. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone who finished in the top eight or ten (which should be most of them) was given a second assignment. Otoh, I could definitely see singles skaters operating under stricter requrements, since there are simply more of them competing in the U.S. and more with the potential to medal internationally.

[habanero]

Originally posted by Trillian


The problem with this in dance is that we've got a lot of young, untested teams and I doubt most of them are likely to place in the top five in their events.

I agree with this... In fact the quality of the skating frequently decreases very rapidly in all disciplines as you drop below the top 1 or 2 skaters/teams. JGPs are developmental events. I guess the question, once that is recognized, is how far down the list of teams/skaters to go before you wind up with ones which will be unlikely to ever place at the top end of their discipline.

So you send skaters/teams to JGPs for the "international" experience as a reward for sticking it out for years -- or do you resend those teams which may develop into a competitive team in the future so they can get "exposure" to the ISU judges? I suspect it is the latter.

[JKlink]

I did a factored placement based on the Lake Placid Results to see where the couples who skated all 3 events would have ended up. The CDs were split into 2 groups and they skated all 4 dances. I added the placements from last year's Nationals as a reference point. JK

Couple.....................................FP..... ...CD, OD, FD.....National Pl.
1 Matthews/Zavozin..................2.4...........2,1,1...... .... N3
2 Devins/O'Keefe......................3.6...........1,2,2.. ........ J7
3 Solomon/Cohen......................6.2...........2,4,3.... ......N1
4 Steed/Hill..............................9.0...........3, 3,6..........J6
5 Donowick/Ungar....................10.8...........2,5,7..... .....New Team
6 Rey/Rey...............................15.2...........4 ,6,10........Germany?
7 Langhans/Braasch.................16.2............7,8,8..... .....N4 Split
8 Graham/Neumann-Aubichon.....18.8............4,7,13........CAN N1
9 Ellis/Connelly........................19.8............7, 10,11.......New Team
10 Slattery/Harris.....................20.6............5,11,12 .......New Team

Incomplete Skates
Carter/Latyshev.......................12.2.............6, 8,5 DNS CDs on Saturday
Davis/White.............................. 4................0,0,4........N2 Only skated FD
Frisch/Bommentre.....................0.4..............1,0 ,0.........J4 Only skated CDs