What is up with Tim Goebel?

[Lark]

I know he finished pretty low at 2005 Worlds (10th?).

Having 2 World Silver medals (?) and an Olympic Bronze (!!!), what has happened to him?

I had herad that his timing was off. If so, is that going to be fixable before the 2006 Games?

[sk8er1964]

The short story is that he was injured for quite a while, and then had a recent coaching change. You can read more about all of it in his journal:

http://www.timothygoebel.net/journal04.shtml

[stardust skies]

The longer story is that he got too much success too young and couldn't handle it the way some others have, started taking himself too seriously (and practice not so seriously), and went downhill because of it. There's also the coast change and coaching change which he was vocal about not wanting to do but having no choice. The combination of all of these things would sink any skater. The fact that he's woken up and started working his butt off again and not taking things for granted is great and very admirable, and I wish him nothing but good results this season, although I personally think that his career is on its way to an end. It's much harder to peak a second time than it would be the first time- people (aka judges) don't give you the same benefit of the doubt anymore, and there's up and comers ready to be crowned the next big thing. You never know though, I thought for sure after 2004 season that he would be done and quit, but he really impressed me with his comeback in 2005...so perhaps 2006 will be the return of the King! :)

[SkateFan123]

The longer story is that he got too much success too young and couldn't handle it the way some others have, started taking himself too seriously (and practice not so seriously), and went downhill because of it. There's also the coast change and coaching change which he was vocal about not wanting to do but having no choice. The combination of all of these things would sink any skater. The fact that he's woken up and started working his butt off again and not taking things for granted is great and very admirable, and I wish him nothing but good results this season, although I personally think that his career is on its way to an end. It's much harder to peak a second time than it would be the first time- people (aka judges) don't give you the same benefit of the doubt anymore, and there's up and comers ready to be crowned the next big thing. You never know though, I thought for sure after 2004 season that he would be done and quit, but he really impressed me with his comeback in 2005...so perhaps 2006 will be the return of the King! :)


Tim's first coast change was from Ohio to CA when he voluntarily left Carol Heiss Jenkins for Frank Carroll. Then he reported left Frank unvoluntarily. If that is true, why do you think Frank asked him to leave? Was it due to Tim's lack of training ethics? Was Frank just bored with coaching?

[mary]

I really like Tim and I hope he does well this year. It's pure speculation on why he left Frank Carroll -- here's the different stories that I have heard:

1. He was partying too much and not taking lessons seriously and blowing them off every now and then.

2. He was jealous of the attention given to threat Evan Lysacek

3. He was difficult to work with as he would purposely get in the path of other skaters to interfere with their jumping or whatever.

4. Frank "fired" Tim due to some or all of the above and didn't need the aggravation when he had other promising skaters on the rise.

[Oracle]

I've never heard of any of those 4 explanations. My understanding from what I've read was that Tim believed he knew more than Frank & had questioned Frank's suggestions & advice. I think that after all he went through with Chris Bowman that Frank no longer has the time or patience to deal with skaters with attitude. I, also, recall that Frank had said in interviews that he had planned to retire from coaching years ago but Michelle Kwan had so much promise that he continued on so I don't think he cares whether he continues to coach or if he retires.

[Mel On Ice]

I actually have had heard the partying rumor, as it involves him and other top-ranked US skaters at that time.

[stardust skies]

Tim's first coast change was from Ohio to CA when he voluntarily left Carol Heiss Jenkins for Frank Carroll. Then he reported left Frank unvoluntarily. If that is true, why do you think Frank asked him to leave? Was it due to Tim's lack of training ethics? Was Frank just bored with coaching?

Most likely a little of both, but mainly because he had a younger, more promising horse in his stable, who magically had the best season of his life as soon as Tim left. This is why I'm convinced this is Jenny's last season, or at least Jenny's last season with the Frank team, because they just brought in Bebe. It gets really crowded when two people in the same discipline, going for the same titles, are training not only at the same rink, but with the same coaches. In both cases, it's been a case of someone who hasn't been doing well (Timmy, Jenny..) being replaced with someone on the rise (Evan, Bebe). I personally don't think it's a bad or even untolerable move- I mean you have to pick your students, and you need to put your faith in the most likely candidates.

Plus, perhaps the Frank team realized what was going on with him and thought getting him isolated on a different coast with a different coach would kick his butt back into shape.

Edit: Mary, thanks for saying exactly what I tried to say with my original post without having the guts to actually say it so bluntly. :P That's pretty much exactly the truth.

[manleywoman]

Methinks Frank doesn't like to deal with students who aren't very disciplined. I agree that after Chris Bowman, his tolerance for students that are unwilling to listen to him is extremely low. And a guy in his position certainly doesn't need to put up with it.

[mikey]

This is entirely heresay, but I read on a random blog one night a while ago about an Olympic medalist figure skater (whom admittedly the source did not name, although everything about it screamed of Tim) who was reportedly spending a lot of time partying in LA around people who were fond of crystal meth. I have no way to substantiate this, but I was wondering if anyone else had ever heard of anthing similar. The timing of this report along with all of Tim's skating problems just struck a chord in my mind. Admittedly, all hearsay...

[stogba]

He's appearing at Sun Valley tonight in their ice show. In fact he is the headliner!

[stardust skies]

Mikey, I'm pretty sure whatever you stumbled upon online about the crystal meth is not about Timmy. His problems were more attitude-related than substance-related, and at that, all substance would mean in his case might be a hangover from too much drinking at a party the night before, or maybe a little marijuana. I don't think hard drugs were really Tim's style. Partying all the time is really bad for a skater. But, a lot of them do it. What REALLY sinks a skater, no question, is not showing up for practice, having issues with people at the rink and having it stress you out and give you another reason not to show up, and plain out just being directionless. These were bigger issues than anything he might be doing in his freetime. Thankfully, things seemed to have gone back to normal. I'm really rooting for him to come back.

[WeBeEducated]

This is entirely heresay, but I read on a random blog one night a while ago about an Olympic medalist figure skater (whom admittedly the source did not name, although everything about it screamed of Tim) who was reportedly spending a lot of time partying in LA around people who were fond of crystal meth. I have no way to substantiate this, but I was wondering if anyone else had ever heard of anthing similar. The timing of this report along with all of Tim's skating problems just struck a chord in my mind. Admittedly, all hearsay...


Back in the days of the "boot problems" he claimed to be having, I heard he was at his maximum partying stage.

[stardust skies]

Back in the days of the "boot problems" he claimed to be having, I heard he was at his maximum partying stage.

Well, he WAS having boot problems. In that his boots couldn't do the skating for him. ;)

[BABYSKATES]

Wow! I don't think Tim deserves this kind of speculation or rumors! Neither does Frank Carroll! Jeeze! Skaters and coaches part ways all the time. Tim isn't a drug addict or a major party boy. He really did have boot problems as have lots of other people recently. Something is truly up with some boots these days. And about Frank not caring about coaching anymore...Hooey! Frank came back from a serious injury earlier this year in just a few weeks because he couldn't wait to get back to coaching. There is always someone talented to be excited about but Frank treats his kids like they are all talented. Frank is still a very caring and committed coach who values all of his kids. He wouldn't have arranged for another coach to work with Tim if the reason for their break up was skater stupidity (eg. drug use). I had the opportunity to observe Tim for some years and he appeared to me to be courteous on the ice (my skater says he was fine on the ice - NOT rude) and he was always sweet to me and my skater off the ice. He appeared to be working hard always. I hope he makes a huge come back. Meanwhile, I hope people won't spread unkind rumors about him.

[WeBeEducated]

babyskates-ever been to some of the hotel parties at nats?
know any skaters who have hung out at those parties?
skaters are no different than other athletes.
off the ice they have a seperate persona than that fake one done for the cameras

[BABYSKATES]

babyskates-ever been to some of the hotel parties at nats?
know any skaters who have hung out at those parties?
skaters are no different than other athletes.
off the ice they have a seperate persona than that fake one done for the cameras
To answer your questions: Yes and Yes. We are fortunate to personally know a number of top skaters. Our rink is always well represented at Nationals and lots of us go to Nationals to support them (and celebrate with them). Of course skaters, like other athletes (and people from every walk of life) cut loose and party on occasion. Your point is??? It is quite a stretch from saying that someone has partied to saying that someone's partying caused the break up of their professional relationship with their coach. Unless Frank and or Tim are saying that (they are not) it is just speculation and rumors.

[snoopysnake]

babyskates-ever been to some of the hotel parties at nats?
know any skaters who have hung out at those parties?
skaters are no different than other athletes.
off the ice they have a seperate persona than that fake one done for the cameras

WeBeEducated, have you been at these parties? What happened and who was involved to make you say this? Some of us do not hear about these things, so if you are going to mention such activity, you ought to be direct and not make us speculate.

I find this thread surprising, because I had the impression from all I have read that Tim was very shy and not a party type (e.g. Nicole Bobek was someone who was well-known to be a party girl.) Of course many people are not what they seem, and I don't have access to the "sources" you seem to have.

The level and quantity of jumping these days is certainly burning out skaters (e.g. Yagudin, Plushenko, Lipinski) and surely this has contributed to Tim's problems, regardless of what else may have been affecting his progress.

[stardust skies]

I think that if you actually know these people, then you know what went on. I for one never said Frank doesn't care about coaching- clearly he does. But as for Timmy's problems, either you know him and you might know what happened, or you don't and you won't. Observing things from afar as a parent is TOTALLY different. Of course there isn't going to be heavy drinking at a party when parents are around- what are you thinking?? There were plenty of parties without adults present and they're a different story for all of us. There's official celebrations, and then there's the real hotel parties. Two different worlds. You guys can believe he went through 13 pairs of boots in one season if you want. I, for one, know that's physically impossible, because you need a few weeks to break in new boots before you even know if they'll work out anyways. And he didn't have any problems with spins- spins need proper boots, too. It just doesn't make sense, never did, but if it makes people happy to believe it, so be it.

Either way, I encourage those of us who know the details of what went on to not air out specifics or what skaters might have been involved in because I think that while the information talked about so far is tolerable because it is well-known among the competition circuit and is by no means a secret, anything else might seriously impede on privacy. I think the question's been answered, and it is anyone's choice to take or disregard it. The issues have been resolved, it's all over and everyone's moved on, so it doesn't really matter in the end. There have been far more dramatic things to go on in the World of skating.

[galaxybounce]

Ok I don't want to be mean but, I never liked Tim's skating. He can jump pretty well when he's on but he has a kind of lazy way of getting into his jumps and lets his arms drop as he's going into the jump. On top of this I don't like his hunch and general style. He has improved it a lot but that's not saying much. I geuss we'll see how he does at nationals and if he can make it back to the olympics. I guess Wier has taken away most of the spotlight and Evan L. Hmmmm I don't know weather or not he was partying of on drugs and that could have happend knowing how the world is. There is the other question of his orientation. It seems to me like he's still deciding or has decieded to be gay.... O_o That could be makeing him act wierd and not practice as he used to when he was younger....

[stardust skies]

There is the other question of his orientation. It seems to me like he's still deciding or has decieded to be gay.... O_o That could be makeing him act wierd and not practice as he used to when he was younger....

That's officially the most ignorant thing I've ever read on a figure skating message board. What the hell does him being gay or not being gay have to do with his skating? It would make him "act weird"? Why? Cause being gay's weird? There's plenty of gay skaters in the world, both eligible and retired, and they all did just as well as their straight counterparts. That's seriously just a stupid statement. I can understand not liking Timmy's style- I don't really like his skating either. But I don't see how his orientation would affect his skating.

Oh and by the way...you don't DECIDE to be gay. You are, or you're not. God, I thought people like you didn't exist anymore. It repulses me. And this is coming from a straight female, so I'm not biased. I just think ignorance kills (if you don't believe me, look up the story on Matthew Sheppard), and it disgusts me. Please educate yourself, and learn acceptance and compassion. It's your responsability as a human being, and citizen of this world.

[tripletoesrule]

That's officially the most ignorant thing I've ever read on a figure skating message board. What the hell does him being gay or not being gay have to do with his skating? It would make him "act weird"? Why? Cause being gay's weird? There's plenty of gay skaters in the world, both eligible and retired, and they all did just as well as their straight counterparts. That's seriously just a stupid statement. I can understand not liking Timmy's style- I don't really like his skating either. But I don't see how his orientation would affect his skating.

Oh and by the way...you don't DECIDE to be gay. You are, or you're not. God, I thought people like you didn't exist anymore. It repulses me. And this is coming from a straight female, so I'm not biased. I just think ignorance kills (if you don't believe me, look up the story on Matthew Sheppard), and it disgusts me. Please educate yourself, and learn acceptance and compassion. It's your responsability as a human being, and citizen of this world.

I second you completely Stardust Skies. Never read such a disgusting thing on this board before. Ugh, the nerve of some people.

[snoopysnake]

Stardustskies, you hit the nail right on the head about that outrageous remark about "deciding to be gay."

I am still puzzled about the partying, um, "controversy." Where does one who is ignorant about these "well-known" incidents find out what you are talking about? If it is invading privacy to say more, then don't mention it at all. I now feel that there is some big secret stuff going on in the skating world that affects the skating I see and only the privileged few get to know about it. I'd rather know everything or know nothing, than know nothing but a few bits of confusing gossip and speculate my head off.

[stardust skies]

Stardustskies, you hit the nail right on the head about that outrageous remark about "deciding to be gay."

I am still puzzled about the partying, um, "controversy." Where does one who is ignorant about these "well-known" incidents find out what you are talking about? If it is invading privacy to say more, then don't mention it at all. I now feel that there is some big secret stuff going on in the skating world that affects the skating I see and only the privileged few get to know about it. I'd rather know everything or know nothing, than know nothing but a few bits of confusing gossip and speculate my head off.

It's not really controversy. A lot of people have a phase when they party a little too hard. The problem is that if you're into a sport like figure skating- it takes a bigger toll, and it's more obvious to more people. People party like CRAZY at colleges, I see them stumbling all around the streets at night (I live near a college town). But it's not a big deal for them because they can just go to class in their PJ's the next day.

I shouldn't have said anything to begin with, because I don't think it is or ever was that big a deal, but that stupid boot cover-up has always bugged me. It's not my place to have it bug me- I know, but I think it would have been a lot more respectable to be honest with his fans, and since mostly everyone in the inner circles of skating know the real story anyway, I didn't think it would hurt to repeat it here. I hope I or other posters haven't dissapointed any of Timmy's fans- he's a great guy, and he deserves every bit of everyone's support.

The big reason behind those silly "cover ups" which many skaters use for one reason or another, is that judges don't really forgive things, and in this sport, making statements like "I had a bad season because I partied too much and skipped my practices cause I was tired" is career suicide.

As far as how one would know about what goes on after the spotlights go off...that's like everything else. Everyone has lives other than what you see. Strangers/acquaintances might see you at the grocery store and say hello or have a conversation with you over something trivial, and they have no idea of any struggles you may have because they do not know you. If you want to know what goes on in someone's life, or at competitor's parties, you just have to be involved, I guess. There's a whole big screwed up behind the scenes world in figure skating (as well as other sports), and the only ones who know about it are the ones who are emerged in it. Trust me though, it's really nothing you can't do without. I would love it if life was one great big ABC fluff piece. ;)

[dr.frog]

I have no idea whether it's true that Goebel was partying a lot during his supposed "boot problem" and "anatomical changes" episode. But if it is true, it may well have been a symptom rather than the cause of his malaise. From what I heard at the time, his coaches were going around telling people off the record that Tim was in a phase where he was majorly burned out on skating and tired of the whole rat race, and that he was having serious attitude problems. I don't doubt this is why Frank Carroll ultimately told him to find another coach; he'd been through that all before with Christopher Bowman, after all.

[NYCskater]

That's officially the most ignorant thing I've ever read on a figure skating message board. What the hell does him being gay or not being gay have to do with his skating? It would make him "act weird"? Why? Cause being gay's weird? There's plenty of gay skaters in the world, both eligible and retired, and they all did just as well as their straight counterparts. That's seriously just a stupid statement. I can understand not liking Timmy's style- I don't really like his skating either. But I don't see how his orientation would affect his skating.

Oh and by the way...you don't DECIDE to be gay. You are, or you're not. God, I thought people like you didn't exist anymore. It repulses me. And this is coming from a straight female, so I'm not biased. I just think ignorance kills (if you don't believe me, look up the story on Matthew Sheppard), and it disgusts me. Please educate yourself, and learn acceptance and compassion. It's your responsability as a human being, and citizen of this world.

I think that Galaxy bounce meant that Tim became a born again Christian and then said he wasn't gay... but has past relationships with top male skaters up in Lake Arrowhead when he was in California and hits up the (gay)Splash bar here in NYC. This must be tough for a young person growing up in the spotlight and might affect training.. Johnny Weir, on the other hand, doesn't care what people think about him and has a free and easy style about him that just oozes confidence.

[icedancer2]

I think that Galaxy bounce meant that Tim became a born again Christian and then said he wasn't gay... but has past relationships with top male skaters up in Lake Arrowhead when he was in California and hits up the (gay)Splash bar here in NYC. This must be tough for a young person growing up in the spotlight and might affect training.. Johnny Weir, on the other hand, doesn't care what people think about him and has a free and easy style about him that just oozes confidence.

Thank you for saying what I was not articulate enough to say -- I don't think that Galaxy was slamming gay lifestyle per se -- just that sometimes it IS a struggle for a person to deal with their sexuality, etc., especially within the framework of family upbringing, religion, other social pressures.

I can see where this could totally affect one's training.

Not that this is what was going on with Tim, but still, it COULD be some part of it -- all speculative of course.

(Not that I'm speculating here... -- actually had never thought of it until this thread came up).

[stardust skies]

I think that Galaxy bounce meant that Tim became a born again Christian and then said he wasn't gay... but has past relationships with top male skaters up in Lake Arrowhead when he was in California and hits up the (gay)Splash bar here in NYC. This must be tough for a young person growing up in the spotlight and might affect training.. Johnny Weir, on the other hand, doesn't care what people think about him and has a free and easy style about him that just oozes confidence.


Two things: number one, I think that those people who claim to be devout Christians and then make exceptions for themselves (this could be being gay, premarital sex, whatever...) and don't realize they are, by their religion's standard, "sinning", and don't repent- are hypocrits in their finest form. I'm not religious, but I have friends who claim to be very religious, so much so that they are very opressive about it. Wouldn't you know it, I'm the virgin and they're the ones having tons of premarital sex, and they say "God would want them to enjoy themselves and feel good". That always makes me gag. So I personally think that Timmy being both Christian and "gay" (because it's not official) is an insult to both the gay community and the Christian community. You can't be gay and live a gay lifestyle AND be christian. Why would you follow a religion who states that your basic primal attractions are wrong and that you, in essence, are wrong to love the people you love? I find it unexplanable.

As to Galaxybounce, he might have miscommunicated what he meant, but if that's the case, he screwed up his words BIG TIME, because there's not a single mention of religion in his post. I somehow think you're giving him too much credit. But perhaps not. Either way, I can't assume religion is implied, I reply to what I read.

On an interested ending note, Johnny may be "free with everyone", and yet, he hasn't come out, and when asked about relationships, never hints that the person he is dating is indeed a boy. So much for not caring what people think, right? And Johnny is into the whole trendy Kaballah thing, even though he's stated that he's not Jewish. So, Tim and JWe are about even, to me anyway.

[the old gurl]

So I personally think that Timmy being both Christian and "gay" (because it's not official) is an insult to both the gay community and the Christian community. You can't be gay and live a gay lifestyle AND be christian. Why would you follow a religion who states that your basic primal attractions are wrong and that you, in essence, are wrong to love the people you love? I find it unexplanable.I think the people I know who are both gay and Christian would argue that point with you. There are certain 'factions' of Christianity that are quite accepting of gays and lesbians. There are other factions of Christianity that have no tolerance whatsoever. There IS a 'gay Christian' or 'Christian gay' community out there and what you've said is an offense to THEM.

[stardust skies]

I think the people I know who are both gay and Christian would argue that point with you. There are certain 'factions' of Christianity that are quite accepting of gays and lesbians. There are other factions of Christianity that have no tolerance whatsoever. There IS a 'gay Christian' or 'Christian gay' community out there and what you've said is an offense to THEM.

Which is fine, because I do not mind offending hypocrits. I'm not religious, as I said, but the Christians who think it's ok within their religion to be gay offend *me*, so if I offend them in return, I'm not too concerned. That's like when everyone was cheering for the first priest to come out of the closet (and retain his position), why can't these people just say they don't agree with everything their religion stands for and leave it? They can still believe in God and act as Christians, but they cannot call themselves as such if they don't believe everything their religion teaches- and since a lot of gay and lesbian opression does come under the excuse of "religious beliefs", I don't understand why any gay or lesbian person would want to associate themselves with a group of people who opress their peers. Religion is about groups of people, not about the deity- you can believe in God and not ascribe to a certain group, especially if that group perpetuates hatred on your peers. I'd say 85 percent of all Christians don't believe everything the Bible says. And even though people find strength and comfort in numbers, these people still shouldn't call themselves Christians, because they are not, really.

At the end of the day, I don't really care what people do or tell themselves to help them sleep at night. I just think people who try to find loopholes in their own religion probably need to step out of their own head space and realize something isn't right.

[snoopysnake]

From what I have read about Tim Goebel's religion, he is a devout Catholic, which I don't think implies that he is a fundamentalist Christian of the anti-gay persuasion. There are plenty of gay Catholics even if the Church does not officially accept homosexuality, just as there are many Catholics who have abortions, use birth control, etc.

Tim has a right to be any religion and have any sexual preference that he has. (Ditto for Johnny and anyone else.) If that is what is causing his skating problems then it's only because society has intolerant attitudes. If Tim needs a shot of work ethic, Todd Eldredge would seem to be one of the best examples one could seek. I hope he will have a rebound in his skating, even though he is not among my very favorites.

[flippet]

You can't be gay and live a gay lifestyle AND be christian.

Well, I, and I'm sure a lot of others, would beg to differ with you.



Why would you follow a religion who states that your basic primal attractions are wrong and that you, in essence, are wrong to love the people you love? I find it unexplanable.


I'll borrow a line/scene from The West Wing to explain this one. A gay Republican congressman is asked how he can possibly be a member of the Republican party--when they say that being who you are is wrong. The congressman responds that there are many other parts of the Republican platform that he believes in very strongly--and that his life isn't all about being gay--that it doesn't have to be all about that.

Being gay (or straight) does not consume most people's lives. It colors most aspects, sure, but it is not all-consuming. There's a lot more to life and belief than that.

There's a lot more to Christianity than what it does (or doesn't) say about homosexuality. That's a very small part, really, and so not important in the grand scheme of things. Besides which, different groups of Christians believe different things about homosexuality. You can't paint them all with the same brush.

[stardust skies]

I didn't really even want to post that last reply I posted, because the last thing I want to do is start a fight, especially about something as potent as religion, so I will just agree to disagree with everyone. I shall make no more comments on this particular issue. I think this thread might be dead, anyways? I hope it is. :giveup:

[blades]

8-)

religious retoric aside...back to the real story...

there are many issues, but it boils down to the fact that the dude is a self centered jerk who is verbally abusive with his coaches...carol delt with it and frank eventually chose not to...how audry is dealing with it i don't know...

as a member of the press once stated about the "anatomical misallignment" story: "we are well aware of that...he's had his head up his a$$ for years!"...

[WeBeEducated]

8-)

religious retoric aside...back to the real story...

there are many issues, but it boils down to the fact that the dude is a self centered jerk who is verbally abusive with his coaches...carol delt with it and frank eventually chose not to...how audry is dealing with it i don't know...

as a member of the press once stated about the "anatomical misallignment" story: "we are well aware of that...he's had his head up his a$$ for years!"...

:lol: I think you cut through the BS and hit it on the nail! People tend to idolize their sports heroes, and skating fans tend to pretend theirs are all Pollyanna, female or male!

[loveskating]

I could care less about all this pure speculation (on the very negative, dark side) about Tim's character! Sheesh!

As to his problems, from where I am sitting, all I can say is that he lost his quad (temporarily I hope) and I'm wondering why he did and Plushenko and Yagudin did not through the same type of growth spurts etc. and also that I think his presentation improved considerably under Frank Carroll.

Boy, this thread shows that skating fans can be so remarkably cruel and vicious! Its not enough, apparently, that Tim had to lose his "place" in skating, be "fired" by his own coach, and face the possibility of not having a great career...now his character is under attack? This only makes me wonder if he is a contender afterall...and in someone's way because the only times I've seen these types of really vicious, deamonizing attacks is when that is the case?

[Mel On Ice]

You can't be gay and live a gay lifestyle AND be christian.

sure you can

[snoopysnake]

"I'm wondering why he did and Plushenko and Yagudin did not through the same type of growth spurts etc. "

I think all the quads they've done have had very detrimental effects to their physical condition, especially Yagudin's. Their skating has always been had lot more variety and other movement than Goebel's. Without the quads, Goebel's skating isn't very interesting, while Yagudin's certainly is. Plushenko has much better carriage than either of them and is the best overall skater of the three.

"and also that I think his presentation improved considerably under Frank Carroll."

I give Lori Nichol more credit than Frank Carroll for that. I think presentation is mostly a matter of how much the skater feels his or her music. I've often thought that if Tim skated to a religious piece, he could have a masterpiece on the ice. He could also be effective as a tragic character, like Pagliacci, because he often looks like he is going to cry (i.e. he's emotional, so he would be good at such roles.)

"Boy, this thread shows that skating fans can be so remarkably cruel and vicious! Its not enough, apparently, that Tim had to lose his "place" in skating, be "fired" by his own coach, and face the possibility of not having a great career...now his character is under attack? This only makes me wonder if he is a contender afterall...and in someone's way because the only times I've seen these types of really vicious, deamonizing attacks is when that is the case?[/QUOTE]"

I agree! There seems to be motivation on this board to kick Tim while he's down. Ditto for Michael Weiss.

[Oracle]

I could care less about all this pure speculation (on the very negative, dark side) about Tim's character! Sheesh!

As to his problems, from where I am sitting, all I can say is that he lost his quad (temporarily I hope) and I'm wondering why he did and Plushenko and Yagudin did not through the same type of growth spurts etc. and also that I think his presentation improved considerably under Frank Carroll.

Boy, this thread shows that skating fans can be so remarkably cruel and vicious! Its not enough, apparently, that Tim had to lose his "place" in skating, be "fired" by his own coach, and face the possibility of not having a great career...now his character is under attack? This only makes me wonder if he is a contender afterall...and in someone's way because the only times I've seen these types of really vicious, deamonizing attacks is when that is the case?

I think you are over reacting. I haven't seen any "cruel & vicious" remarks. A lot of hearsay, maybe but nothing here compares to the days of yesteryear (5-7 yrs ago?) when two or three trolls would gang up & hammer a particular skater about their skating, their lifestyle, their fans...give them nasty nicknames & if you dared speak up & defend that skater they'd go after you with their disparaging, nasty remarks!! And it wasn't just one skating board, they'd make the rounds. Very ugly. So be glad there are no trolls about!~!

[stardust skies]

Boy, this thread shows that skating fans can be so remarkably cruel and vicious! Its not enough, apparently, that Tim had to lose his "place" in skating, be "fired" by his own coach, and face the possibility of not having a great career...now his character is under attack? This only makes me wonder if he is a contender afterall...and in someone's way because the only times I've seen these types of really vicious, deamonizing attacks is when that is the case?

What you probably (most likely) don't gather from this thread, is that I like Tim a lot as a person. That doesn't stop me from being completely objective about anything I may see. What you're missing is that while a lot of people here are fans, there's also quite a few skaters. These skaters have to train SOMEWHERE. Some of us happen to train where the stuff that's being discussed goes down, and thus we might have seen or heard more than you, from the TV set, would be able to gather. Some of the hearsay on any given thread is made up, I'm sure, but most of it comes from people who happen to be at a training center where whatever is being discussed might happen. Some of us live in a hotbed of figure skating, so we might see more things than someone who skates in, say, Iowa. When you see something go down, it's a lot harder to "see other sides of the story", than when you don't. That's all.

In the end though, I think Tim's a good guy. That doesn't mean he can't screw up. And just because some people pointed out his mistakes, doesn't mean we don't like him, or think he's a bad person for it. Nothing bad was really said on this thread. What was said? Partying. Drinking. MAYBE drugs (oh, God forbid...because there aren't millions of teens and twenty-somethings who experiment). Not being courteous to other skaters on training ice. Having a temper. The whole gay vs religion thing which, in the heat of it, made me call him a hypocrit. None of these things are all that bad, though. I certainly can think of many many skaters who've been called worse on this board. So why so upset? I still can't grasp it. You're upset people said Timmy partied too much and didn't take training seriously. I mean, that's not an insult. That's just what happened, and he's allowed to party as much as he pleases and blow off training if he wants to. But obviously, people are gonna notice, and when he loses his jumps, people will remember it's cause he didn't train much that season. There's still nothing negative about pointing it out. Especially since it's over and he's being serious now. I think him re-motivating himself is a positive thing, and makes it even more admirable that he podiumed at Nationals once again. So, I fail to see what upsets you. :frus:

[alfongsucks]

so is tim still able to do all the quads?

[loveskating]

[QUOTE=stardust skies]Some of the hearsay on any given thread is made up, I'm sure, but most of it comes from people who happen to be at a training center where whatever is being discussed might happen. Some of us live in a hotbed of figure skating, so we might see more things than someone who skates in, say, Iowa. When you see something go down, it's a lot harder to "see other sides of the story", than when you don't. That's all. QUOTE]

First, one has a choice about what they repeat and make public. That goes for what they hear and even for what they saw with their own eyes. Additionally, there is the matter of interpretation of what you see.

So at a minimum, folks are choosing to repeat what they have heard and/or what they think they saw, and since the content of same is hurtful, I can only assume that it is intended to be hurtful. Mind you, this is not about Tim's skating quality or even his costumes, or a very specific statement he made or didn't make, this is all about Tim's character and the content is not even about say jealousy or scheming, its about serious character flaws.

Personally, I don't give a flying fig if Tim or anyone else is a good guy or not...I know so many good guys, but none of them can skate! Also, kids go through things...kids are just not wired as adults in the brain until they are at least around 17 or 18, so they must all be forgiven for childhood mistakes.

[Lark]

I can't remember. Has anyone actually said anything about the state of Tims *skating* since Worlds?

[stardust skies]

I can't remember. Has anyone actually said anything about the state of Tims *skating* since Worlds?

From all the reports I've heard throughout the summer of friends who skate either in VA or CT (where Timmy was for a while, getting his programs choreographed), Tim's skating is going great. I didn't hear anything about quads, but from what I've been told, everything else is good.

[blades]

Boy, this thread shows that skating fans can be so remarkably cruel and vicious! Its not enough, apparently, that Tim had to lose his "place" in skating, be "fired" by his own coach, and face the possibility of not having a great career...now his character is under attack?

8-)

in case you wondered...this is the "well, DUH!!!" moment...

why the hell do ya think he lost his place, got fired by his coach and has to face the possibility of not having a great career???

barefoot fact: the dude is a foul mouthed, abusive, self centered jerk...end of story...
:roll:

[WeBeEducated]

I dont agree with the idea of "poor Tim" who lost his "place".
Tim is not a victim.
He played the leading role in his loss.
It is interesting that he chose to do that, and that is why people discuss it.

[loveskating]

I dont agree with the idea of "poor Tim" who lost his "place".
Tim is not a victim.
He played the leading role in his loss.
It is interesting that he chose to do that, and that is why people discuss it.

Oh, I did not say Tim was or is a victim. All I've seen that he lost is his quads, hopefully temporarily. Some of you here seem to be deamonizing him, gossiping about him spreading gossip...that does not make him a victim.

in case you wondered...this is the "well, DUH!!!" moment...
why the hell do ya think he lost his place, got fired by his coach and has to face the possibility of not having a great career???
barefoot fact: the dude is a foul mouthed, abusive, self centered jerk...end of story.

Well DUH! I think its because of his skating, specifically his quads! Logically, there can be many reasons for losing your jumps, etc. etc.! If losing your jumps means you are a jerk, then a lot of skaters are jerks, including Karen Kwan eh? DUH, DUH?

Frank Carroll fired Tim. So what? It does not logically follow to me that anything is wrong with Tim's character...any more than it follows that since Michelle Kwan fired Frank, something had to be wrong with Frank! I do, however, believe that if Tim were a contender with, say, Plushenko, he could be as big of a jerk as he liked and he'd still get massive support.

I just dispise these gossipy, "open season" and deamonizing gang ups on ANY skater...it smacks too much of fans ganging up on someone who is a competitor of their favorite.

[stardust skies]

Oh, I did not say Tim was or is a victim. All I've seen that he lost is his quads, hopefully temporarily. Some of you here seem to be deamonizing him, gossiping about him spreading gossip...that does not make him a victim.



Well DUH! I think its because of his skating, specifically his quads! Logically, there can be many reasons for losing your jumps, etc. etc.! If losing your jumps means you are a jerk, then a lot of skaters are jerks, including Karen Kwan eh? DUH, DUH?

Frank Carroll fired Tim. So what? It does not logically follow to me that anything is wrong with Tim's character...any more than it follows that since Michelle Kwan fired Frank, something had to be wrong with Frank! I do, however, believe that if Tim were a contender with, say, Plushenko, he could be as big of a jerk as he liked and he'd still get massive support.

I just dispise these gossipy, "open season" and deamonizing gang ups on ANY skater...it smacks too much of fans ganging up on someone who is a competitor of their favorite.

Then perhaps you should stay out of the skating message boards during the off season, or you should steer clear of threads such as "what is up with *insert anyone's name here*?". It didn't hint that is was necessarily regarding his skating...it didn't say "what is up with Tim Goebel's skating", just "what is up with tim goebel". The wise thing, if you don't like reading these types of threads (which I don't see that many of, but I also don't open every thread on the board), is to not open them if there's a doubt as to what the topic is.

Sometimes, the reason for a decline in someone's skating ability is a non-skating related matter. So even if the question were "why did tim lose his quads?", the answers could be "gossip" not related to skating at all. The safest way to avoid these threads is to be selective about what you read.

[loveskating]

I don't see any good reason for gossip, ever.

Its hard to stand up to gossip, anywhere, any time. I admire those who do so and like to think I am one of them.

Of course, when something occurs, like when Tim was "fired" one enjoys speculating as to why...but unless and until the principals speak on the subject, or until someone else provides real evidence, one is just speculating and ought to know it.

I have absolutely no reason to believe you all about Tim...and expecially after so many of us have seen vicious and totally untrue attacks on so many skaters by the fans of their competitors...both as to character and as to skating.

[stardust skies]

I have absolutely no reason to believe you all about Tim...and expecially after so many of us have seen vicious and totally untrue attacks on so many skaters by the fans of their competitors...both as to character and as to skating.

Well, I never really asked you to believe me. Someone asked a question- I knew the answer, and I answered. If you think the answer is false, then please think it is false. No skin off my back. But I joined this forum to discuss things, and if I have insight or the answer (or at least part of it...) on something being asked, and I have the time and desire to answer it, then I will answer it.
In my defense, you don't have any more proof that what I am saying is false than I have of it being true (other than the 4-5 other people who I've never met and who probably don't have any more of a reason to lie than I do and who claim to also have been around Tim during the "dark" period backing me up and saying exactly the same things as I'm saying).

My point is, if you want to think it was a boot issue, please do. I think this thread has pretty much run its course, and if you do not believe me, again, that's totally cool by me. I was just trying to offer a perspective you perhaps would not otherwise be able to see. As a skater training in a big skating town, I get a front seat to *all* the drama. I don't spread a lot of it around, but this one time, I did. Probably shouldn't have, but what is done, is done.

Anyway, peace to you. :)