Grandfathering to Adult Track

[TreSk8sAZ]

I know this was brought up in the other thread but I've heard so many things I'm extremely confused. There are two competitions in early September that I would like to/need to do, but I don't know what level to sign up for. I've asked the registrars and referees, but they're having trouble figuring it out as well.

Are any FS tests being grandfathered, or is it only moves? So say someone has passed juvenile moves and pre-juvenile freeskate, would they still have to go back and test all of the adult track freeskates?

Same with lower levels. Obviously intermediate would then be masters intermediate, but what's transferring over through gold?

There are a couple of other girls at my rink that are at a lower level than I am, and are just as confused!

Any feedback would be great.
Thanks!

[Debbie S]

Are any FS tests being grandfathered, or is it only moves? So say someone has passed juvenile moves and pre-juvenile freeskate, would they still have to go back and test all of the adult track freeskates?

Same with lower levels. Obviously intermediate would then be masters intermediate, but what's transferring over through gold?

Check the third page of the skating music thread. Vesperholly and skaternum have provided good explanations of the new rules. It appears you are grandfathered to a certain level of moves based on what you have passed, but then you need to take all of the FS tests required to reach your FS level. I had thought you didn't need to, but I was wrong.

I believe Juv FS is equivalent to Gold, and then you would move to the standard track tests starting with Intermediate. But I could be wrong, so check the new rulebook or Report of Action.

[phoenix]

Hm, well, I was going to say it looks to me like you can cross over only on the Moves, the FS tests have to start back at the beginning; but at the very beginning of the ROA, it looks like you may be able to compete based on your standard track test level........you're right, it is confusing.

I'd email the USFS, they're pretty good about getting back to you. Be really specific; I've passed XX standard moves & XX standard FS tests; I want to compete at XX level in adult---what tests do I need to take?

If you don't hear back from them, I'd say the competition organizers need to make a decision.

Also, fyi, in the new moves crossing over thing, juvenile=adult silver, pre-juv.=adult bronze.

And then report back to the rest of us!

[skaternum]

The trick to understanding the grandfathering rules is understanding 2 principles.

1. USFSA doesn't want you to sandbag below where you ought to be. So they put in restrictions on where you can compete as an adult, based on your standard track FS tests. E.g., if you've passed Juvenile FS, they don't want you sandbagging at Bronze, so they say in effect if you've passed juvenile FS, you can't skate below Silver. This has nothing to do with whether you've passed the tests you need to have passed to skate at Silver or Gold. IOW, this tells you where you need to qualify to skate as an adult; it doesn't tell you that you're qualified

2. Currently, if you want to compete in Adult events (not Masters; Adult), you must have passed the appropriate Adult FS test. And this is where the grandfathering comes into play. Principle 2a: FS tests must always be taken in order, starting at the bottom. Principle 2b: Moves tests are now grandfathered as described in the ROA. Therefore, if you want to compete at Silver (see Principle 1 above to see if you can), you can carry over your Moves tests as high as you can, but you must take all 3 Adult FS tests (pre-bronze, bronze, silver).

[Casey]

Coincidencially, I asked about this elsewhere earlier today and here's the answer I got:

"If you want to make it to AN this year, I would suggest you concentrate on getting the necessary adult tests done first. You say you want to test both tracks, well with the new cross-over rules that take effect September 2nd, you could start with the standard MIF and the adult FS, then go back later (after AN) and pick up the standard FS tests if you wish. If you test standard moves from the beginning there would be no need to do adult moves at all unless you really want to. The adult moves track is just a trimmed down version of standard moves track with a slightly lower judging standard applied. If you do decide to go this route, here is the progression you would follow:

Standard Pre-preliminary MIF
Adult Pre-Bronze FS
Standard Preliminary MIF
Adult Bronze FS

If you go the all adult track you would do:

Pre-Bronze MIF
Pre-Bronze FS
Bronze MIF
Bronze FS"

[phoenix]

Actually Casey, that info isn't correct.

Your testing schedule would need to be:
Pre-preliminary moves
preliminary moves
Adult pre-bronze FS
Pre-juvenile moves
Adult bronze FS
Juvenile moves
Adult silver FS
Intermediate moves
Adult gold FS

[phoenix]

In case anyone wants to read this for themselves, the report is here:
usfsa link (http://usfsa.org/Programs.asp?id=112)

scroll down to "Technical Notes" & click on the first link: "Combined Report of Action Pertaining to Adult Skaters (updated 5/17/05 - rules go into effect Sept. 1, 2005) (PDF)"

Note--some of the other stuff lower down pertains to rules that are no longer in effect, so make sure you check dates on things!

ALSO: to Skaternum, :bow: :bow: :bow: for explaining/deciphering the competition rule thingy! That's what was confusing me.

[Hannahclear]

I've just been reading the PDF of the report. It mentions a new competitive level for pre-bronze. Does this mean that pre-bronze will be making an appearance at Adult Nats?

[w.w.west]

2. Currently, if you want to compete in Adult events (not Masters; Adult), you must have passed the appropriate Adult FS test. And this is where the grandfathering comes into play. Principle 2a: FS tests must always be taken in order, starting at the bottom. Principle 2b: Moves tests are now grandfathered as described in the ROA. Therefore, if you want to compete at Silver (see Principle 1 above to see if you can), you can carry over your Moves tests as high as you can, but you must take all 3 Adult FS tests (pre-bronze, bronze, silver).

Almost. Freestyle tests are grandfathered too. Proposal C further allows a skater who has passed a standard track FS test to grandfather to the appropriate moves test before taking the appropriate Adult FS test. Example: A skater passed Preliminary FS. This skater does not have to go back and take the Adult MIF or FS from the beginning. They simply take the next Moves test....Pre-Juv. MIF or Adult Bronze MIF. Then they would be eligible to take the Adult Bronze FS. I know it is a lot of information and can be confusing. Everyone's situation is different. There really is not one straight answer for every skater's situation. Therefore, I encourage people to contact their appropriate Adult Skating Committee Sectional Vice Chair with any questions. They are there to help.

[jazzpants]

I've just been reading the PDF of the report. It mentions a new competitive level for pre-bronze. Does this mean that pre-bronze will be making an appearance at Adult Nats?I would love that to be the case, but I doubt it. This one's just for local (i.e. Skate SF, Peach Classic, etc) and Adult Sectionals. (Unless, of course, something got changed recently and I didn't hear about it. I certainly didn't see it mentioned in this past GC report. I certainly wouldn't be killing myself over taking the Bronze Moves and FS tests this year if that were the case... :twisted: )

[skaternum]

Proposal C further allows a skater who has passed a standard track FS test to grandfather to the appropriate moves test before taking the appropriate Adult FS test.(slaps forehead) I totally forgot about Proposal C! D'oh! You're absolutely correct.
Everyone's situation is different. There really is not one straight answer for every skater's situation. Therefore, I encourage people to contact their appropriate Adult Skating Committee Sectional Vice Chair with any questions. They are there to help.This is so true. And based on how they worded these proposals, they're going to get a LOT of questions! ;)

[Debbie S]

Example: A skater passed Preliminary FS. This skater does not have to go back and take the Adult MIF or FS from the beginning. They simply take the next Moves test....Pre-Juv. MIF or Adult Bronze MIF. Then they would be eligible to take the Adult Bronze FS.

OK, but what if this theoretical skater has passed higher than Pre-Juv in MIF, say Juv? I assume then that he/she would only need to take (and pass) Bronze FS to start competing at Bronze? Actually, this situation applies to someone I know, and I may have given her erroneous information, or maybe not. This stuff sure is confusing (and I've got 2 master's degrees!). The problem with using the word "proposal" is that you assume only one of them is official, but in reality, I guess they all are.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Proposal C further allows a skater who has passed a standard track FS test to grandfather to the appropriate moves test before taking the appropriate Adult FS test.

So which proposal takes precedence over the others? Has one actually been decided on yet? I think this is the thing that is confusing me the most.

Everyone's situation is different. There really is not one straight answer for every skater's situation. Therefore, I encourage people to contact their appropriate Adult Skating Committee Sectional Vice Chair with any questions. They are there to help.

I e-mailed the Pacific Coast Sectional Vice Chair today, so I'll let you all know what she says!

[singerskates]

I'm glad I'm a Skate Canada skater. It makes it easy for me to compete in the US. I just look at the Skate Canada equivalent and compete at where it says I'm eligible. Skate Canada prelim FS = Adult US Bronze FS. Actually up until the end of May 2005, I was always skating up to skate in US Bronze FS and Skate Canada prelim FS. Now, I would be at the right level when competing in Skate Canada Prelim FS and US Adult Bronze FS.

Brigitte

[singerskates]

I'm glad I'm a Skate Canada skater. It makes it easy for me to compete in the US. I just look at the Skate Canada equivalent and compete at where it says I'm eligible. Skate Canada prelim FS = Adult US Bronze FS. Actually up until the end of May 2005, I was always skating up to skate in US Bronze FS and Skate Canada prelim FS. Now, I would be at the right level when competing in Skate Canada Prelim FS and US Adult Bronze FS.

Brigitte

Note: Here in Canada our skills (sort of like your movs) are separate from our freeskate levels. But our Canadian freeskate tests are in two parts; elements, which includes stroking skills, jumps, spins and some moves like spirals or other moves when you get to higher levels and freeskate program incorporating stroking, movs, jumps, spins, connecting moves and footwork set to music and start at the prelim level. We have no preprelim tests. Adults and kids do the same tests here in the recreational and StarSkate streams.

Brigitte

[Casey]

Actually Casey, that info isn't correct.
Your testing schedule would need to be...

Eh? That doesn't seem logical - Preliminary moves before Pre-Bronze???? Preliminary is a much harder test than pre-bronze!

[Debbie S]

Eh? That doesn't seem logical - Preliminary moves before Pre-Bronze???? Preliminary is a much harder test than pre-bronze!

The principle is that all Pre-Bronze moves need to be passed before taking Pre-Bronze FS. Pre-Bronze MIF (that is, the revamped test that takes effect Sept 1) consists of 3 Pre-Prelim moves (forward stroking, consecutive edges, waltz 8), that new 3-turn move that is specific to the adult track, and the crossover figure 8's from Prelim MIF. You have to pass the figure 8 crossovers on some test, be it Pre-Bronze MIF or Prelim MIF. That's the reason a skater has to pass Pre-Juv MIF (or Bronze MIF) before taking Bronze FS - 3 of the Bronze moves are from Pre-Juv. Obviously, there are some moves on the Prelim and Pre-Juv tests that are harder than the adult moves tests you could take, but if you want to test standard track moves and not the adult track, that is the tradeoff.

[phoenix]

well, I didn't write the rules, I just read them!

Quote from the ROA from the USFS website:

7. APPROVED to clarify and document grandfathering and crossover rules between adult and standard track tests as outlined in the following three proposals:

Proposal A:
Create the allowance of crossing over from the standard track to the adult track for MIF only. If the skater passed the standard intermediate MIF, she/he would not be required to take the adult gold MIF before being allowed to take the adult gold FS or pair test; if he/she passed the standard juvenile MIF, he/she would not be required to take the adult silver MIF before the adult
silver FS or pair test; if she/he passed the standard pre-juvenile MIF, she/he would not be required to take the adult bronze MIF before the adult bronze FS or pair test; and if he/she passed the standard preliminary MIF, he/she would not be required to take the adult pre-bronze MIF before the adult pre-bronze FS test.

This will be allowed in one direction ONLY. That direction is from the standard-track MIF to the adult-track MIF tests. There will be no crossing over from the adult-track MIF to the standard-track MIF, except where currently already provided (adult gold MIF or FS to standard
intermediate MIF).

This is a table to illustrate the proposed crossing over of MIF test levels.

Preliminary MIF (passing avg.: 2.5) to Adult Pre-Bronze MIF (pass/retry)

Pre-Juvenile MIF (passing avg.: 2.7) to Adult Bronze MIF (passing avg.: 2.5)

Juvenile MIF (passing avg.: 3.0) to Adult Silver MIF (passing avg.: 2.7)

Intermediate MIF (passing avg.: 3.2) to Adult Gold MIF (passing avg.: 3.0)

In the adult bronze moves test there are 5 elements; 2 from preliminary & 3 from pre-juv.

[Mrs Redboots]

Note: Here in Canada our skills (sort of like your movs) are separate from our freeskate levels. But our Canadian freeskate tests are in two parts; elements, which includes stroking skills, jumps, spins and some moves like spirals or other moves when you get to higher levels and freeskate program incorporating stroking, movs, jumps, spins, connecting moves and footwork set to music and start at the prelim level. We have no preprelim tests. Adults and kids do the same tests here in the recreational and StarSkate streams.Ours are rather similar - each level has two tests, elements and free (the programme bit, which must incorporate the relevant elements and may, of course, have more). The Field Moves are separate, and the levels don't quite coincide at the moment, although this is due to change when NISA get round to it; they will concatenate Dance Moves and Field Moves under one umbrella as Skating Skills, 4 Moves in each level, and the levels will coincide with the current free skating and dance levels (the dance levels already do coincide; the free ones don't).

[slusher]

I'm Canadian.

I find it interesting that US Adult skaters are required to pass moves tests before being able to (pass) the freeskate test and compete. Does this make for a better quality of skating? I'm going to assume that any skater that could do jumps up to a lutz or whatever and sit/camel spins (obviously I have no clue what's on US freeskate tests) would be able to pass the moves tests, they would be pegged at a comperable level. Or, are those moves tests that hard?

In Canada, preliminary free, (jumps up to flip, camel, sit and backspin) have skills at the preliminary level of a lap of 3 turns (forward I/O left and right) and another lap of mohawks (both sides), they are not skills at a level higher than your typical prelim skater. In fact, most skaters taking their prelim freeskate are on skills several levels higher. And, it's not required that skaters pass the skills, to use singer's example from above, a Canadian skater just passing preliminary freeskate and never having done skills could compete in the US, against someone who had had to have passed a moves test. Somehow I think we have the advantage, not being required to take a test, but maybe not, maybe those moves tests make for better preliminary/bronze skaters?

[TreSk8sAZ]

I just heard back from Antonio Conte, the Adult Chair. He said that after I pass Pre-Juv FS in August that I would be required to take Silver MITF/FS next.

I assume that would mean Preliminary FS would be required to take Adult Bronze MITF, etc. So it does look like they're taking FS tests into account.

[Debbie S]

I just heard back from Antonio Conte, the Adult Chair. He said that after I pass Pre-Juv FS in August that I would be required to take Silver MITF/FS next.

I assume that would mean Preliminary FS would be required to take Adult Bronze MITF, etc. So it does look like they're taking FS tests into account.

Don't forget Proposal C - If you've passed a certain level of moves, you can be exempted from taking the adult MIF test at your freestyle level. I believe with Silver, it's Juv MIF - so if you've passed at least that MIF test, you don't need to take Silver MIF, just FS.

[jazzpants]

Don't forget Proposal C - If you've passed a certain level of moves, you can be exempted from taking the adult MIF test at your freestyle level. I believe with Silver, it's Juv MIF - so if you've passed at least that MIF test, you don't need to take Silver MIF, just FS.Actually, it's PRE-JUV!!! If you have taken and passed pre-Juv MIF, you do NOT have to take the Silver MIF test. You can go ahead and take the Silver FS test.

Okay, everyone! This is the official Report of Action (http://www.usfsa.org/content/2005CombinedROA.pdf) for this year and whatever is on here is what's going into the 2005-2006 rulebook. For those checking out the Adult Track, page 30-33 is what's relevant to you.

I can't wait to get the notebook! My last rulebook is probably back in 2002 when they introduced the moves in the adult track!!! :oops:

[stardust skies]

I'm Canadian.

In Canada, preliminary free, (jumps up to flip, camel, sit and backspin) have skills at the preliminary level of a lap of 3 turns (forward I/O left and right) and another lap of mohawks (both sides), they are not skills at a level higher than your typical prelim skater. In fact, most skaters taking their prelim freeskate are on skills several levels higher. And, it's not required that skaters pass the skills, to use singer's example from above, a Canadian skater just passing preliminary freeskate and never having done skills could compete in the US, against someone who had had to have passed a moves test. Somehow I think we have the advantage, not being required to take a test, but maybe not, maybe those moves tests make for better preliminary/bronze skaters?

People who do moves have a definite advantage other those who don't, just like people who do figures have a definite advantage other those who only do moves. People who do ice dance also have an advantage on all of the above. The moves tests are hard- even the Preliminary with the consecutive forward 3-turns. They were put in place to replace figures, and I think they do a good job, but if you look at skaters today, and then go back to tapes of skaters back in the figures era, you'll notice MUCH greater edge quality and security in them than you do in our skaters, even the ones who take moves.

At the end of the day though, even if it doesn't have quite as much effect as figures, a skater who has learned moves has learned control, edge quality, power, posture, and extension that one who hasn't gone through anything won't have, and that's a definite plus. Many people fail these tests- and if you don't pass, then you don't compete at that level until you fix it. It makes for near PERFECT moves by the time you do pass. Obviously that's an asset.

I can't speak for the adult tests, but I imagine they were put in place to up the quality of skating in their division as well, and that's what it'll most likely do. Proof in point: a lot of people are agonizing over moves because they need them for their Nationals. I'm sure if these people compare their skating before (while they are agonizing) and after (when they pass) they will see a HUGE difference.

I'm a big MITF activist. I think everyone should be required to have good basic skating.

[phoenix]

Actually, it's PRE-JUV!!! If you have taken and passed pre-Juv MIF, you do NOT have to take the Silver MIF test. You can go ahead and take the Silver FS test.

That is not correct. Pre-juv MIF gets you out of Adult Bronze Moves. Juvenile MIF gets you out of Adult Silver moves.

From the ROA:

This is a table to illustrate the proposed crossing over of MIF test levels.

Preliminary MIF (passing avg.: 2.5) to Adult Pre-Bronze MIF (pass/retry)

Pre-Juvenile MIF (passing avg.: 2.7) to Adult Bronze MIF (passing avg.: 2.5)

Juvenile MIF (passing avg.: 3.0) to Adult Silver MIF (passing avg.: 2.7)

Intermediate MIF (passing avg.: 3.2) to Adult Gold MIF (passing avg.: 3.0)

[jazzpants]

Oops!!! :oops: You're right phoenix! Thanks for correcting me on this... I meant to have said that if you pass pre-Juv MITF test, you do not have to take Bronze MITF test, but you'll have to take Silver MITF...

Now I see why all this is so confusing... :lol: :P

[TreSk8sAZ]

Just an update for everyone.

Things are still confusing. I've been in contact with Lexi Rohner and Tony Conte multiple times over the past few days. I've heard everything from after passing Juv MIF I would get to take Adult Gold MIF to being told that taking Juv MIF is useless because I'd still have to take Silver MIF.

According to everything I've read, I should NOT have to take Silver MIF after passing my Juv MIF, just Silver FS, so I'm still in contact with all involved.

Here's hoping it all gets straightened out soon!

[jazzpants]

And I'll bet we'll all still be confused even after we get this year's rulebooks... yours truly included. (But I think phoenix got it right...) :P

The link I gave in the earlier post is the ROA from GC for this year...which is what's supposed to going into the rulebooks this year.

[TreSk8sAZ]

Alright, final verdict from Tony Conte:

If a skater has passed Intermediate MIF, they are then eligible to take the Adult Gold FS. (or Intermediate FS, which they would then skate Masters)

If a skater has passed Juvenile MIF, they are then eligible to take the Adult Silver FS.

If a skater has passed Pre-Juvenile MIF, they are then eligible to take the Adult Bronze FS.

If a skater has passed Preliminary MIF, they are then eligible to take the Adult Pre-Bronze FS.

All tests for Nationals must be completed by January 1, 2006.

This is definitely the standard that the Adult comittee will be using. Hope this helps!