Kwans new Choreographer

[shadymc]

News from a reliable poster at FSU is that Michelle's long and short programs will be choreographed by Tatiana Tarasova. I'm really curious to see what these two can come up with.

[Debbie S]

Hmmm, I haven't seen the FSU thread yet, but this has been a rumor for the past 3 seasons. We'll have to wait and see if this is a reality this time.

[shadymc]

Hmmm, I haven't seen the FSU thread yet, but this has been a rumor for the past 3 seasons. We'll have to wait and see if this is a reality this time.

The poster who reported this was the same one that revealed Michelle's long and short this year, long before it was announced.

[Artemis]

If anyone can revitalize Michelle's style, it's TT. Looking forward to it!

[yogurtslinger]

I'm beginning to doubt this.. Dean's Bolero was surprisingly *nothing special*. I don't know how willing Michelle is to accept choreography that doesn't feel comfortable to her.

[Aimless]

*If* Tatania choreographs Michelle, which I'd like, does that mean she also (yipe!) costumes her?

I never thought I'd say it, but I'm ready to see Michelle change radically. She really needs to break out and this is the year to do it.

[elanboy]

Why stop at choreography?...why not have TT coach her as well?

[loveskating]

Why stop at choreography?...why not have TT coach her as well?

Don't think that would work for TT...remember that Arakawa's win was both unexpected and also that Irina was out of it, and no Russian lady was really contending.

At home, in Russia, TT is very beloved, but while Russians seem proud that their coaches are in such high demand, they do not like it when anyone coaches or helps a direct competitor. They did not like it when Yagudin coached Joubert.

If Irina is in the mix, or if any Russian lady seems competitive next season, it would probably not be wise for TT to coach Michelle Kwan.

[elanboy]

so is TT no longer Arakawa's coach, because she is still a contender and a direct competitor to Irina? Granted, Arakawa did not skate so well at the World Championships this year, but she was recovering from injury and is always a threat especially in an Olympic year...

[loveskating]

so is TT no longer Arakawa's coach, because she is still a contender and a direct competitor to Irina? Granted, Arakawa did not skate so well at the World Championships this year, but she was recovering from injury and is always a threat especially in an Olympic year...

I don't really know if it matters to TT, all I know is that it seems to matter to Russians if someone beats their skater and is coached by a Russian coach like Tarasova or Moskvina -- that kind of renowned, winning coach who has the freedom to pick and choose.

Yagudin took a lot of abuse in the Russian press for helping Joubert, whose direct competitor at the time was seen to be Plushenko.

[loveskating]

Well, I don't think Michelle can do a TT choreographed program, like that of Sasha's Rach or Swan Lake or Arakawa's 2004 LP.

At this point in her life, I don't think she can do the tough jump entries nor keep the kind of momentum and intensity characteristic of a TT program going. We shall see though.

[Schmeck]

Sasha never really could complete a TT free program either. It will be interesting to see if Michelle can. Will she water it down? Will she risk falls by going all out? I agree, it will be interesting to see, and compare.

[Tapper]

Well, I don't think Michelle can do a TT choreographed program, like that of Sasha's Rach or Swan Lake or Arakawa's 2004 LP.

At this point in her life, I don't think she can do the tough jump entries nor keep the kind of momentum and intensity characteristic of a TT program going. We shall see though.

Well, MK isn't Sasha and she isn't Arakawa and I imagine that TT is savy enough to recognize that every great skater brings specific talents to the mat. I think that TT is quite capable of designing a program specifically taylored for MK. I also think that MK would not have hired TT unless she thought TT had something to offer her. A good choreographer will design a program that will best suit the performer.

I hope that your predictions for MK and her upcoming season are subverted by a series of stellar performances from MK *at this point in her life*

[loveskating]

Sasha never really could complete a TT free program either. It will be interesting to see if Michelle can. Will she water it down? Will she risk falls by going all out? I agree, it will be interesting to see, and compare.

Except for scratch two footing the 3 flip which had an extremely difficult serepentine entry (and such a 2 footed jump counts) Sasha did totally skate Swan Lake more than once, including at Campbells in NYC which I saw myself, and certainly she skated the Rach totally clean more than once, including in the qualifying at Worlds that year.

Tapper said: "Well, MK isn't Sasha and she isn't Arakawa and I imagine that TT is savy enough to recognize that every great skater brings specific talents to the mat. I think that TT is quite capable of designing a program specifically taylored for MK. I also think that MK would not have hired TT unless she thought TT had something to offer her. A good choreographer will design a program that will best suit the performer. "

TT is not a cookie cutter choreographer, which is what I love most about her. However, for singles skaters, there has been a certain level of TECHNICAL difficulty by TT (perhaps partly because she has not taken on many lower ranking singles skaters, as she does in ice dance, which is her main field) and Kwan's skating so far simply does not reach that level technically.

I agree, however, with those who say that it will be interesting to see what TT and Michellle come up with...and I certainly hope that all the skaters are able to progress and do their best.

BTW, Tapper, I make no predictions, I merely make an analysis as best and as honestly as I can based on what I already know. Given the fact that everyone including Dick Button acknowledged that Kwan did not skate the actual program choreographed by Chris Dean at Worlds last season, it is hardly astonishing that I or anyone else would raise this as a concern.

I did not believe that Todd Eldredge could get the quad at that point in his life, and I was right. I did not believe that Sarah Hughes could land two 3/3 combinations in the LP at the Olympics, I was wrong. SO shoot me either way, I am merely having a lot of fun discussing skating as intelligently as I can, and learning as much as I can from others.

[ice-princess]

But surely Michelle must be at the same technical level as sasha...or there'd be no competition, sasha would win hands down at every competition where they met, and as far as I know, this hasn't happened.
I don't think that TT would make up a program give it to Michelle and be all "Well other skaters can do it, why can't you?"

And just to give a fair point, just because a skater doesn't do the exact same things as another one, doesn't mean that they can't. Maybe it doesn't feel right, go with their music or maybe they just don't want to. Maybe Sasha and Michelle are secretly doing quintuple jumps! :lol:

I don't think its fair to assume that just because you haven't seen Michelle do it, doesn't mean she's at some "lower level technically".

And BTW- "This point in her life?" :lol: Sorry to bust your bubble but MK's not an OAP yet...not even in skating terms.

[Schmeck]

LOL, figureskates, that 'serpentine entry' on the flip :lol: :lol: :lol:

All I remember about Sasha w/TT is that she managed to flub something in each program, and then the camera would cut to TT making 'angry faces'

[loveskating]

LOL, figureskates, that 'serpentine entry' on the flip :lol: :lol: :lol:

All I remember about Sasha w/TT is that she managed to flub something in each program, and then the camera would cut to TT making 'angry faces'

Sorry for you, because you missed some great skating.

[Tapper]

BTW, Tapper, I make no predictions, I merely make an analysis as best and as honestly as I can based on what I already know. Given the fact that everyone including Dick Button acknowledged that Kwan did not skate the actual program choreographed by Chris Dean at Worlds last season, it is hardly astonishing that I or anyone else would raise this as a concern.

....SO shoot me either way, I am merely having a lot of fun discussing skating as intelligently as I can, and learning as much as I can from others.

Loveskating, I understand what you are saying. I shouldn't have used the word "predictions"... perhaps I should have used the word "assesment" instead. I like to think that MK has the stuff to pull it off and simply has to shift her strategy on how to win the competition. Maybe my reading your assessment of her chances will stand to soften the blow [for me] if she does not medal. Meanwhile, I still like to believe that she has what it takes to win. So in essence, I hope that you are wrong in your assessment of her. But, I'm not saying you are. I really don't know if she can do it or not. I just "believe" that she can.

And... no shooting allowed! ;)

[Schmeck]

sorry for me, LOL! No, I saw some great skating, some of it was even done by Sasha, when she wasn't skating all tensed up and robotic. But I don't remember any flawless programs from Sasha.

[7302005]

sorry for me, LOL! No, I saw some great skating, some of it was even done by Sasha, when she wasn't skating all tensed up and robotic. But I don't remember any flawless programs from Sasha.

Well you weren't the only one who missed it - I don't remember seeing any flawless programs either. Not even exhibitions.

[loveskating]

sorry for me, LOL! No, I saw some great skating, some of it was even done by Sasha, when she wasn't skating all tensed up and robotic. But I don't remember any flawless programs from Sasha.

I don't recall any flawless programs from anyone in the top 5 ladies last season...Irina came close in her LP at Worlds, but even that was not totally flawless; Arakawa was almost flawless the previous Worlds.

Care to cite who skated "flawlessly" and at a high level of difficulty? Kwan does not usually skate flawlessly...its just that ABC does not mention her flaws, while they seem to put a spotlight on everyone else's. As for a high level of difficulty, not Kwan's forte in this field of skaters.

What happened to Bondo?

[loveskating]

Loveskating, I understand what you are saying. I shouldn't have used the word "predictions"... perhaps I should have used the word "assesment" instead. I like to think that MK has the stuff to pull it off and simply has to shift her strategy on how to win the competition. Maybe my reading your assessment of her chances will stand to soften the blow [for me] if she does not medal. Meanwhile, I still like to believe that she has what it takes to win. So in essence, I hope that you are wrong in your assessment of her. But, I'm not saying you are. I really don't know if she can do it or not. I just "believe" that she can.

And... no shooting allowed! ;)

I understand your feelings for her. They are the prerogative of every individual.

All I care about is that the skating is judged fairly, and that whomever skates best that particular competition wins. If my favorite skater does not skate well, it does not bother me in the slightest that they did not win, nor does it change how I feel about them.

[MusicSkateFan]

Dean did do MK's Bolero but by the time the season was over it looked nothing like "Dean's" Bolero and there was not even a mention of his name!

If MK is getting a program by TT it will probably get stripped down to what MK wants by the end of the season anyway..

lets see, here's how it goes..for SP

cue: over used music
dance around
cross over cross over two foot two foot
double axel
cross over cross over two foot two foot
3z(with slight flutz),2t
armless layback
cross over crossover two foot two foot
3 flip with missed toe pic
slow camel spin
cross over cross over spiral
run down center of ice with gasping expression and flailing arms to cover up the fact that you only did one rocker and are calling it a footwork sequence
crossover crossover two foot two foot
catch foot spin
bent back end position
Ta DAH!!!!!!!
:evil:

[bunghodog]

Actually Sasha's Rach was my favorite program of hers. Too bad she never skated it to it's full potential.
I am curios to know what Michelle has been working on and with whom, I hate all the secrecy. It seems Sasha has become the same way the last year or so, not giving out any info either. But I think Michelle realizes she cannot strip down this year, she will go all out even if she trips and falls.

[Lark]

I think it is funny that someone would point out that Michelle skates the same program, but miss out on most of the Ladies doing the same thing.
All of Slutskayas programs are nearly identical, I would agree that most of Michelles are as well.
But most women, and in some case men (Yags, mini-Yags Joubert, etc.) have nearly the same programs all the time.
Sasha is the only one who stands out in that her programs are different to the most extent each time.
Oh, and I know Michelle will win Oly gold this time. ;)

[WeBeEducated]

Dean did do MK's Bolero but by the time the season was over it looked nothing like "Dean's" Bolero and there was not even a mention of his name!

If MK is getting a program by TT it will probably get stripped down to what MK wants by the end of the season anyway..

lets see, here's how it goes..for SP

cue: over used music
dance around
cross over cross over two foot two foot
double axel
cross over cross over two foot two foot
3z(with slight flutz),2t
armless layback
cross over crossover two foot two foot
3 flip with missed toe pic
slow camel spin
cross over cross over spiral
run down center of ice with gasping expression and flailing arms to cover up the fact that you only did one rocker and are calling it a footwork sequence
crossover crossover two foot two foot
catch foot spin
bent back end position
Ta DAH!!!!!!!
:evil:

:lol: that is an absolute perfect description of what we have witnessed over the years!
I wonder why she even hires a choreographer acutally. Perhaps it is just interesting to continuously get a variety of artistic feedback, or maybe Kwan is genuinely searching for something new and different.
Programs by TT definately have a "look" that is recognizable, but I would rather see the skater's personality instead of the choreogrpaher's. Remember when everyone rushed to get the cookie cutter footwork from Morosov?
If Kwan wants a choreogrpaher who creates unique and quality programs that bring out the best of a skater's style, she should go to Tom Dickson.

[Tapper]

I think it is funny that someone would point out that Michelle skates the same program, but miss out on most of the Ladies doing the same thing.
All of Slutskayas programs are nearly identical, I would agree that most of Michelles are as well.
But most women, and in some case men (Yags, mini-Yags Joubert, etc.) have nearly the same programs all the time.

It does seem unreasonable, doesn't it. They [skaters] each have a unique style and things that they do well and they stick to that. And why not, I reason? It's a sport and strategy is part of the game. Stick to what you can do, and do well, if you want to win. Each athlete has his/her own best moves. Maybe people just complain about MK because she's been around for so long... over exposure for some. Not for me though. I always enjoy watching her skate.

[Frau Muller]

I hope that TT sticks to choreography & doesn't try to impose her TACKY costumes on Michele! :lol:

[loveskating]

I think it is funny that someone would point out that Michelle skates the same program, but miss out on most of the Ladies doing the same thing.
All of Slutskayas programs are nearly identical, I would agree that most of Michelles are as well.
But most women, and in some case men (Yags, mini-Yags Joubert, etc.) have nearly the same programs all the time.
Sasha is the only one who stands out in that her programs are different to the most extent each time.
Oh, and I know Michelle will win Oly gold this time. ;)

Its siimply not true what you are saying...Irina has improved technically and as to presentation over the years...not to mention Arakawa and oithers!

Since 2001 Irina added 3 jump combos, serpentine footwork the length of the rink (and executed with body perfectly on center) and lots of other things. I don't recall her doing a spiral sequence in the Bielman position before...and if she did, it was rarely! She has continually pushed herself, and at this last Worlds even landed another 3 lutz/3 loop while Michelle no longer even tries a 3/3 toe loop, which is the easiest of all the jump combos in the first place (Kwan had a very high quality one though when she did it).

The only way you could know that Kwan will win the next Olympics is if it is fixed.

[yvettedeena]

The only way you could know that Kwan will win the next Olympics is if it is fixed.

I'm taking it that you are basing this assumption on Michelle's skating these past couple of years and have therefore come to the conclusion that she will definintely, without a doubt, show up next year with the same type of programs, when she knows full well this will not bode well for her. This is a huge leap on your part. Or maybe it's not, if you are are in fact, privvy to her training sessions right now, then I have to say you know of what you speak, but if not, then I just have to say what my mother always said "you can always say where you've been but you can't always tell where you're going".

[loveskating]

I'm taking it that you are basing this assumption on Michelle's skating these past couple of years and have therefore come to the conclusion that she will definintely, without a doubt, show up next year with the same type of programs, when she knows full well this will not bode well for her. This is a huge leap on your part. Or maybe it's not, if you are are in fact, privvy to her training sessions right now, then I have to say you know of what you speak, but if not, then I just have to say what my mother always said "you can always say where you've been but you can't always tell where you're going".

Huh? I don't know how ANYONE is going to skate at the Olypmics, therefore, I don't know who will win. For instance, I never dreamed Sarah Hughes could land two 3/3s in the LP, but she did.

However, I think the only way Kwan can win is if Sasha, Irina and probably others, make mistakes because their technical level and technical quality level is simply a lot higher than Kwan's at this point.

[yvettedeena]

Huh? I don't know how ANYONE is going to skate at the Olypmics, therefore, I don't know who will win. For instance, I never dreamed Sarah Hughes could land two 3/3s in the LP, but she did.

However, I think the only way Kwan can win is if Sasha, Irina and probably others, make mistakes because their technical level and technical quality level is simply a lot higher than Kwan's at this point.

Certainly no one knows how anyone will skate at the next Olympics and I never suggested that you said that - I was responding to what you said here:

The only way you could know that Kwan will win the next Olympics is if it is fixed.

If others make mistakes and Michelle does not, then that's not a fix is it? Michelle and Irina made mistakes at this past Olympics and Sarah Hughes did not - no one thought that was fixed. Even without two triple-triples as Sarah did, had Michelle skated as planned, she still could have won by placing second in the LP.

I still maintain that unless one is privvy to her training sessions NOW and knows that she is not even attempting to raise her game, then there is no way one can predict for sure that she will show up next year skating as she has been these past couple of years.

[Kathy]

The adage that "your only as good as your last skate" certainly applies to the opinion of many. I just Don't see when Sasha became so "technically superior" to Michelle - other than Michelle's QR at World's. Even Michelle's Free skate at World's in which she fell, in a non-friendly COP program, garnered about the same COP scores at Cohen's COP scores when she fell in the QR at Worlds. Cohen surely wasn't more "technically superior" to Michelle at Nationals when she touched down in the SP and Fell in the LP, even though Michelle certainly wasn't at her best either. And as for the rest of last season - well Sasha was certainly not "tecnically superior" to Michelle in either of the cheesefests - oh I know she was injured. As far as I can see only her spins are consistantly "technically superior" to Michelle. We could argue it to death but as far as I can tell given both of their strengths and weaknesses, both are in a dead heat all else being equal.

[7302005]

Let me say right off the bat...I can not tell you who a favorite ladies skater is right now in my mind:

I have to say that most of the skaters, including Michelle and SASHA, use the same old program chor. over and over again. (I apologize to Lark regarding the Sasha comment, but I really think that she has done the same program year after year - just my opinion)

I really didn't see anything new in the 2004-205 season for the top ladies skaters.

I realize that they can skate and I can't nor do I claim to skate, but really it (programs) is what the skater is comfortable performing.

If you turn off the previous season's music and put on the new season's music, the skatng would fit the program just as well as it did previously. I guess I don't blame them - why mess with success? I mean if a certain program worked in previous years' why would you risk changing much since you have the judges' vote of confidence.

As for the men's skating - yawn, with the exception of Stephane, Evan and Johnny. But they risk having the same problems with new programs.

Pairs - ?

Dance - ?

Back to the subject of the thread. Do I think that TT will be good for Michelle? Depends on who wins the control issue and even that I could not predict if the change in coach would benefit either of them.

[loveskating]

Back to the subject of the thread. Do I think that TT will be good for Michelle? Depends on who wins the control issue and even that I could not predict if the change in coach would benefit either of them.

Whether Tarasova will be good for MK is not the subject of this thread. That is what a Kwan fan would wish to discuss, but not all skating fans are Kwan fans.

[loveskating]

The adage that "your only as good as your last skate" certainly applies to the opinion of many. I just Don't see when Sasha became so "technically superior" to Michelle - other than Michelle's QR at World's. Even Michelle's Free skate at World's in which she fell, in a non-friendly COP program, garnered about the same COP scores at Cohen's COP scores when she fell in the QR at Worlds. Cohen surely wasn't more "technically superior" to Michelle at Nationals when she touched down in the SP and Fell in the LP, even though Michelle certainly wasn't at her best either. And as for the rest of last season - well Sasha was certainly not "tecnically superior" to Michelle in either of the cheesefests - oh I know she was injured. As far as I can see only her spins are consistantly "technically superior" to Michelle. We could argue it to death but as far as I can tell given both of their strengths and weaknesses, both are in a dead heat all else being equal.


"Technically superior" does not necessarily refer to any particular competition and certainly not to numbers of medals won...for instance, Irina is technically superior to most skaters (due to 3 lutz/3 loop or even 3 lutz/2 loop, the height and ice coverage of her all jumps, her proper backspin position in the air, her edging, her Bielman spins, her 3 turn into a 3 loop and her 3 sal/3 loop, as well as some other things -- so if she skates clean and at her highest technical level, she usually wins.

IMHO, Sasha's OE spiral, her fan spiral, all her spins, her 2 axel with actual footwork entry, not just steps, her loop, salchow and flip and all her in-betweens except for the split falling leaf are largely technically superior to Kwan element for element. So far, sasha's footwork has been technically more difficult.

Its like I said...others have to make mistakes for Kwan to win. Its not like with Yagudin and Plushenko, where Yagudin put a 4/3/2 into his program to match Plushenko technically, or even like Kulik v. Eldredge, where Eldredge planned, at least, thre 3/3 combos to match Kulik's base points.

[yvettedeena]

"Technically superior" does not necessarily refer to any particular competition and certainly not to numbers of medals won...for instance, Irina is technically superior to most skaters (due to 3 lutz/3 loop or even 3 lutz/2 loop, the height and ice coverage of her all jumps, her proper backspin position in the air, her edging, her Bielman spins, her 3 turn into a 3 loop and her 3 sal/3 loop, as well as some other things -- so if she skates clean and at her highest technical level, she usually wins.

IMHO, Sasha's OE spiral, her fan spiral, all her spins, her 2 axel with actual footwork entry, not just steps, her loop, salchow and flip and all her in-betweens except for the split falling leaf are largely technically superior to Kwan element for element. So far, sasha's footwork has been technically more difficult.

Its like I said...others have to make mistakes for Kwan to win. Its not like with Yagudin and Plushenko, where Yagudin put a 4/3/2 into his program to match Plushenko technically, or even like Kulik v. Eldredge, where Eldredge planned, at least, thre 3/3 combos to match Kulik's base points.

But a mistake or two from a supposedly technically superior skater should still put them over a clean but far less superior skater. It has happened before. I just do not agree that one element, the split falling leaf, is what is putting Kwan ahead of her competitors whenever she has won.

[7302005]

Whether Tarasova will be good for MK is not the subject of this thread. That is what a Kwan fan would wish to discuss, but not all skating fans are Kwan fans.

I am confused - isn't the name of the thread - "Kwan's new Choreographer"?

[Kathy]

"Technically superior" does not necessarily refer to any particular competition and certainly not to numbers of medals won...for instance, Irina is technically superior to most skaters (due to 3 lutz/3 loop or even 3 lutz/2 loop, the height and ice coverage of her all jumps, her proper backspin position in the air, her edging, her Bielman spins, her 3 turn into a 3 loop and her 3 sal/3 loop, as well as some other things -- so if she skates clean and at her highest technical level, she usually wins.

IMHO, Sasha's OE spiral, her fan spiral, all her spins, her 2 axel with actual footwork entry, not just steps, her loop, salchow and flip and all her in-betweens except for the split falling leaf are largely technically superior to Kwan element for element. So far, sasha's footwork has been technically more difficult.

Its like I said...others have to make mistakes for Kwan to win. Its not like with Yagudin and Plushenko, where Yagudin put a 4/3/2 into his program to match Plushenko technically, or even like Kulik v. Eldredge, where Eldredge planned, at least, thre 3/3 combos to match Kulik's base points.


Loveskating - I don't know what you've been smokin - your assessment of Cohen's superiority - element for element so to say borders on delusional.

[loveskating]

Loveskating - I don't know what you've been smokin - your assessment of Cohen's superiority - element for element so to say borders on delusional.

I smoke nothing these days...perhaps I can tell the difference between a solid edge on a fan spiral and a wobbly one, or 3 full and easy rotations on a loop jump, which you apparently cannot.

Kwan is certainly in the top five...the difference between her spiral and Sasha's is not that great but Sasha's is better; the difference between their laybacks is huge, but the ISU rules do not favor a classical layback so competition wise, its moot technically, but in the real world, any skater knows that doing a classic layback like Sasha, Sarah Hughes, or Angela N. does is much more difficult.

In fact, technically I'd say that Kwan has only two spectacular elements, her COE spiral the full length of the rink and her split falling leaf. OTherwise, she is just solid, and as to spins, she is really substandard.

I could go on, but clearly, you do not wish to debate and discuss the facts, and prefer to personally insult me when you clearly do not even know me on behalf (you think) of Michelle Kwan.

Kwan can win...and myself, I care not, although I think it would be great if the best overall skater won, and that would now be Sasha Cohen -- in any case, people are now and willl be trying to do what Sasha does, element for element, and forever...there is nothing you can do about it, its done. Its like Kulik's jumps...everyone studys them.

[Tapper]

edited to say nothing. Sorry.

[yvettedeena]

Kwan can win...and myself, I care not, although I think it would be great if the best overall skater won, and that would now be Sasha Cohen --

I agree, the best overall skater should win, but of course we won't who this is until after they skate at the Olympics, certainly not now.

in any case, people are now and willl be trying to do what Sasha does, element for element, and forever...there is nothing you can do about it, its done. Its like Kulik's jumps...everyone studys them.

Of course, there will always be skaters that others try to emulate. The top skaters all have qualities that someone admires and respects.

[nyskatefan]

IMHO, Sasha's OE spiral, her fan spiral, all her spins, her 2 axel with actual footwork entry, not just steps, her loop, salchow and flip and all her in-betweens except for the split falling leaf are largely technically superior to Kwan element for element. So far, sasha's footwork has been technically more difficult.

I just wanted to address a few things from the above post.

I did not remember Sasha's entry into her 2A's at this year's Worlds, so I pulled out my tape just to make sure I had my facts right. I watched both her SP and LP, and found no footwork. She does a pretty little pose several seconds before the actual jump, where she raises her arms a bit and lifts her right leg slightly up and to the right. But no footwork in either program. Actually, Sasha and MK were marked pretty evenly on the 2A's they did in Moscow. I haven't looked at Sasha's programs from the 2003/2004 season, but maybe I'll have a chance to do that later.

With regards to the footwork ... certainly each person has their own preference as to what they like best. In fact, if you asked 10 different people who did the best footwork, you'd probably get 10 different answers.
So I went to the judges detailed results from Worlds to see how they called it.

In the QR:
Sasha - Level 2 with .10 GOE
MK - Level 2 with .50 GOE

SP:
Sasha - Level 2 with .71 GOE
MK - Level 2 with .43 GOE

LP:
Sasha - Level 2 with .29 GOE
MK - Level 2 with .50 GOE

As you can see, the judges clearly saw both MK and Sasha very equal in this department. It's certainly understandable to like one better than the other, but on a purely technical point of view, they were judged very evenly.

Edited to correct spelling error.

[loveskating]

You are simply mistaken (or worse) on the entry to the 2 axel...and you neglected to consider speed into the jump. Take a look at many performances and you will see considerably more speed on Sasha's part into her 2 axel. We all know serpentine footwork has to be the length of the rink as footwork...but serpentine footwork is made up of parts, and Sasha does some of these to enter her 2 axel, perhaps not at Worlds, but certainly in Swan Lake LP and other programs.

As for footwork, I don't recall mentioning it. Its Irina's footwork I am impressed with in this field of skaters, but at least Sasha does rockers and counters, not just poses.

Kwan is still good, she can certainly get good marks, but she is simply not the best anymore...not only Sasha, but numerous othres are, at their best, considerably better than she is and they skate at a much higher level of difficulty. That does not mean she will not win...it does mean that she will have to rely on others making mistakes to win....like when Candeloro won bronze, sure, he won fairly, but Eldredge was a lot better skater.

[nyskatefan]

You are simply mistaken (or worse) on the entry to the 2 axel...and you neglected to consider speed into the jump. Take a look at many performances and you will see considerably more speed on Sasha's part into her 2 axel. We all know serpentine footwork has to be the length of the rink as footwork...but serpentine footwork is made up of parts, and Sasha does some of these to enter her 2 axel, perhaps not at Worlds, but certainly in Swan Lake LP and other programs.

As for footwork, I don't recall mentioning it. Its Irina's footwork I am impressed with in this field of skaters, but at least Sasha does rockers and counters, not just poses.

Kwan is still good, she can certainly get good marks, but she is simply not the best anymore...not only Sasha, but numerous othres are, at their best, considerably better than she is and they skate at a much higher level of difficulty. That does not mean she will not win...it does mean that she will have to rely on others making mistakes to win....like when Candeloro won bronze, sure, he won fairly, but Eldredge was a lot better skater.

No, I wasn't mistaken (or worse ... whatever that means). I clearly stated that I was referring to Worlds, the most recent competition. I suppose we could go back in time for all the skaters to find things they did better, or differently in previous programs..
And as for your not recalling mentioning footwork ... you claimed Sasha's was more technically difficult. I simply pointed out that the judges didn't seem to think so according to the levels and GOE's handed out. But maybe the judges were mistaken in their assessments. Or perhaps you were referring to a different competition. Or maybe I should ask first who you were referring to when you said "just poses" in their footwork.

[skatefancan]

I think alot of you are missing something here. Something that people are born with...something that comes from the inside. Something that is almost pulled from another planet. And that is something called...the X factor. Michelle Kwan....when she is on.....has it. She skates from the soul. She skates with magic. She may not be the skater with the most difficulty...but when she displays this magic. It can't be denied. This is what really sets a skater apart from an artist. Sasha is an incredible skater...but I have yet to see the brillance of the artist. Perhaps one day she may get there.

[WeBeEducated]

I think alot of you are missing something here. Something that people are born with...something that comes from the inside. Something that is almost pulled from another planet. And that is something called...the X factor. Michelle Kwan....when she is on.....has it. She skates from the soul. She skates with magic. She may not be the skater with the most difficulty...but when she displays this magic. It can't be denied. This is what really sets a skater apart from an artist. Sasha is an incredible skater...but I have yet to see the brillance of the artist. Perhaps one day she may get there.

I totally disagree! I saw Sasha skate as a 12 year old and was blown away by her sense of style and artistry on the ice. She interpreted the music and moved with a beautiful ease. Her line even then was gorgeous. Sasha had a flawless layback at that age, and a sensitivity to the nuances of her choreography.

I saw Michelle skate as a 12 year old and thought she was quite unattractive in her presentation and totally lacked artistry. She moved with stiffness, was self concious, and seemed disconnected from the music. She had no line. NONE

Michelle to me is a very good student of skating, extremely consistant in the basics, and very reliable in her ability to compete under tremendous pressure.
However, try as I might, I have never felt anything watching her skate. I believe that she skates with a wonderful sense of pride and confidence, but without the slightest bit of natural artistry.

[7302005]

I believe that what skatefancan was referring to as the It factor - is just that love for skating not the inborn natural talent

Sasha as born - thas double jointedness that allows her to perform "amazing" things. Some the skating is talent, some of it is genetics, and some is the desire to skate. Develop all three...possibly unbeatable.

Watching is only the person's opinion and while I respect WEBEEDUCATED's opinion of Sasha at 12, I personally had a different impression of skating. I was not able to see Michelle skate at 12 - so I do not have comparisons to make. I certainly hope that WBE respect's my opinion.

Natural artistry does not necessarily impress me.

I still believe that this thread has turned into a Michelle vs. Sasha thread despite the name of the thread and beginning topic which was TT as a choreographer for Michelle.

[icedancer2]

I still believe that this thread has turned into a Michelle vs. Sasha thread despite the name of the thread and beginning topic which was TT as a choreographer for Michelle.

And this surprises you?

[Tapper]

Watching is only the person's opinion and while I respect WEBEEDUCATED's opinion of Sasha at 12, I personally had a different impression of skating. I was not able to see Michelle skate at 12 - so I do not have comparisons to make.

Hi, 7302005, I saw her (MK) skate when she was 12... she was darling. She wasn't fully developed as an artist then and when she had her breakthrough they began to refer to her as developing into an artist. And there's nothing wrong with developing into an artist. Everyone is on a different time table. Just because Sasha has had mature form since she was 12 doesn't mean that MK doesn't have natural talent because she didn't have the same form at age 12. There is such a thing as discovering a "natural talent" at a later age. Having spent my life in arts education, I've seen it happen many times. All it means is that one's inteligence in the art form has been turned on. So I disagree with Webe's assessment suggesting that MK doesn't have natural artistry. Artistry is artistry... what would you call it otherwise... artificial artistry?

I think that what makes MK a true artist is her ability to skate so honestly, and to be so connected to the program. Although Sasha hits beautiful positions and is very fluid, I never get the sense that she is "in" her performance... she always seems to be outside of it, to me. In my opinion, Sasha is purely technical, even in her artistry.

It's foolish to argue about whether a person has natural talent or doesn't have natural talent because all talent is natural. However, your talent is what you make of it. There are thousands of very gifted 'natural' talents out there who don't have the drive that it takes to fully develop it. And there are many talented artists who rely only on their technique and others who rely on both technique and emotional connection. It's all a matter of what floats your boat as to whether you like one more than the other. I like Sasha... she's beautiful, but for me, MK is the real thing. And, I'm looking forward to seeing how her collaboration with TT comes out. I'm hoping for something wonderful.

[tdnuva]

I think that what makes MK a true artist is her ability to skate so honestly, and to be so connected to the program.
Sorry - but I don't get this impression. At least not with Bolero e.g. There were other programs, too, where I had the impression she just was skating thru the music and not WITH the music. Or did you mean something else?

[loveskating]

So far, I have heard nothing which convinces me that Michelle can skate to a Tarasova program...if she does manage it, I will be suprised... I don't think at this point in her physical life, that Michelle can master either the jump entries or the jump combinations that her competitors have been doing since they were 12 or 13 and that characterize a Tarasova program since Tarasova had Ilia Kulik.

P.S. I no longer find Michelle to have much magic. I find her to be in serious decline and it saddens me to see it...its like seeing Domingo when he transposes those operas down 2 full notes so he can sing a B.

[Tapper]

Sorry - but I don't get this impression. At least not with Bolero e.g. There were other programs, too, where I had the impression she just was skating thru the music and not WITH the music. Or did you mean something else?

I concur. I felt that she never connected in Bolero... in her QR at Worlds I thought she was totally disconnected (outside of the program)... in a way I've never seen her before. But I see this as the exception rather than the rule.

I'm talking about a connection that is beyond skating "with" the music... it's more like "being at one with" the entire task... not easy for me to explain. It doesn't happen all the time, but when it does it's electric.

Ok, so this sounds like a rabid fan talking. I'm a fan... but I'm not rabid. In any case, time for me to shut up. :lol:

[nyskatefan]

loveskating, you certainly have the right to feel however you please about Michelle. I was just wondering what difficult jump combos Sasha has been doing since she was 12 or 13?
And I wouldn't be too sad for Michelle ... if she never wins another medal, she will still have a magnificent career ... full of medals of all colors, to look back on. :)

[likes2skate]

loveskating, you certainly have the right to feel however you please about Michelle. I was just wondering what difficult jump combos Sasha has been doing since she was 12 or 13?
And I wouldn't be too sad for Michelle ... if she never wins another medal, she will still have a magnificent career ... full of medals of all colors, to look back on. :)

Correct me if I am wrong...but Sasha has not attempted a difficult jump combo since 2003 Worlds, where she landed a 3/3. MK has not attempted a diffucult jump combo since 2002 Worlds, where she landed a 3/3.

They both attempted and successfully landed 3/2/2 at worlds 2005. If you ask me, it sounds as if they are on the same page as far as jump combos go...

Edited to add Bolero was a snoozer :)

[nyskatefan]

Correct me if I am wrong...but Sasha has not attempted a difficult jump combo since 2003 Worlds, where she landed a 3/3. MK has not attempted a diffucult jump combo since 2002 Worlds, where she landed a 3/3.

They both attempted and successfully landed 3/2/2 at worlds 2005. If you ask me, it sounds as if they are on the same page as far as jump combos go...




Likes2skate ... that was the point I was trying to make. I have no problem with saying Michelle has not pushed herself with the 3/3 combos. I just want to make sure everyone gets judged by the same criteria.

[WeBeEducated]

Hi, 7302005, I saw her (MK) skate when she was 12... she was darling. She wasn't fully developed as an artist then and when she had her breakthrough they began to refer to her as developing into an artist. And there's nothing wrong with developing into an artist. Everyone is on a different time table. Just because Sasha has had mature form since she was 12 doesn't mean that MK doesn't have natural talent because she didn't have the same form at age 12. There is such a thing as discovering a "natural talent" at a later age. Having spent my life in arts education, I've seen it happen many times. All it means is that one's inteligence in the art form has been turned on. So I disagree with Webe's assessment suggesting that MK doesn't have natural artistry. Artistry is artistry... what would you call it otherwise... artificial artistry?

I think that what makes MK a true artist is her ability to skate so honestly, and to be so connected to the program. Although Sasha hits beautiful positions and is very fluid, I never get the sense that she is "in" her performance... she always seems to be outside of it, to me. In my opinion, Sasha is purely technical, even in her artistry.

It's foolish to argue about whether a person has natural talent or doesn't have natural talent because all talent is natural. However, your talent is what you make of it. There are thousands of very gifted 'natural' talents out there who don't have the drive that it takes to fully develop it. And there are many talented artists who rely only on their technique and others who rely on both technique and emotional connection. It's all a matter of what floats your boat as to whether you like one more than the other. I like Sasha... she's beautiful, but for me, MK is the real thing. And, I'm looking forward to seeing how her collaboration with TT comes out. I'm hoping for something wonderful.

the post I referred to said MK was born with artistry.
I saw her without it.
Talent is something you are born with, and it can wither or be developed, but it cannot be created in adulthood.
MK as a youth might have appeared "charming" in her gawky innocence, technically talented with her small but sure jumps, but she never showed in any way that she owned natural artistry.
Her handlers then began a determined and very focused effort to remold her on-ice persona . She was basically force fed a diet of cues to remind her to "tell a story", emote, etc etc etc.
There never was anything innately natural or talented about her "artistry" and for me there still is just an obvious lack of it in her programs.
MK does though skate with tremendous confidence based on her reliable jumps.
Grace, rhythm, extension, musicality...those are artistic qualities that Sasha has always had. Natural talent.

[Chico]

WeBeEducated,
I have seen many adult skaters with talent. Talent comes froms inside a person and age has nothing to do with it. Talent comes from natural ability, body structure, ability to work hard and a love and appreciation for the sport. (Being pretty darn brave helps too.) I'm a firm believer this is true for children as well as adults.
Chico

[nyskatefan]

MK as a youth might have appeared "charming" in her gawky innocence, technically talented with her small but sure jumps, but she never showed in any way that she owned natural artistry.
Her handlers then began a determined and very focused effort to remold her on-ice persona . She was basically force fed a diet of cues to remind her to "tell a story", emote, etc etc etc.

Just so we're accurate here ... this would be an opinion, not a statement of fact.

[likes2skate]

IMO if you are 13 years old and can cand 7 triples at your first world championships, you are talented. :)

[loveskating]

loveskating, you certainly have the right to feel however you please about Michelle. I was just wondering what difficult jump combos Sasha has been doing since she was 12 or 13?
And I wouldn't be too sad for Michelle ... if she never wins another medal, she will still have a magnificent career ... full of medals of all colors, to look back on. :)

Its not just Sasha -- Irina, Arakawa, Kimmie, Carolina, Ando -- all sorts of skaters are extremely good technically, have been landing very difficult combos since early on and they are knocking on the door of "whole package". Sasha is just the best of all of them overall.

Sasha has landed a 3 lutz/3 toe loop in competition, at Worlds, 2003 if I recall, and Kwan has never even attempted a combination that difficult.

Kwan began to consistently land a 3/3 toe loop, the easiest rated combination, in 1999. She stopped in 2001, hasn't done one since in competition.

Sasha has routinely landed a high quality 3 flip/2 toe loop, and Kwan only recently tried or landed that combination at all, and it was very, very tiny.

As you must know, jumps and jump combinations are rated as to difficulty and the more difficult ones get more points under the COP (and counted for more under the 6.0 system as well). 3/3 toe loop is the easiest. Not to mention that having a flip combo gives you the chance to then get credit by doing another Flip jump, which is worth more on difficulty scale!

As for me being "sad" for Michelle, I never said I was so don't tell me not to be. I quite agree, she has absolutely nothing to gain from winning an Olympic gold medal, so the question I keep having is, why is she even competing!

[loveskating]

IMO if you are 13 years old and can cand 7 triples at your first world championships, you are talented. :)

Just to clarify the debate, what you say is evidence of being TECHNICALLY talented...not artistically gifted, which is the subject that was raised.

The transformation that was evident from 1995 Worlds to 96 Worlds indicates more than a little force feeding...and there are lots of rumors as to what might have happened to 15 year old Michelle Kwan to get that out of her then, so I would not necessarily consign WEBeducated's statement to mere opinion.

However, I do think Michelle has a certain natural artistic characteristic, a quality of drawing the audience in, a vulnerable quality which seems to demand protection -- and also she is a very fluid skater. I consider those characteristics artistic gifts. I also think she raised the level of artistry and of presentation in the sport (with Lauri Nichol's help).

I think Sasha surpasses her is all...Sasha is like Pavarotti to Michelle's Tito Schipa, both in the top five tenors of all time, both incredible artists, but Pavarotti just had more of everything Schipa had and then some, including that incedible baritonal, velvet scura which is so rare in a lyric tenor, and those high notes that just bloom at the top!

[crayonskater]

Why should it matter if the artistry is natural or learned? I mean, we don't say of skaters, well, when they were ten they couldn't do a 3loop/3loop so the fact that they can do one now shouldn't count as much because it proves they're less athletic. Kwan's artistry has changed since she was a little 13 year old jumping bean with the help of coaching. Cohen's changed (so say the commentators on TV) when she was working with Tarasova. To which I say, so?

Part of artistry is feeling the music and owning it. Part of it is comfort with your technical level (which is why it's an important part of skating.) Part of it is, well, knowing how to hold your body, which is a learned athletic skill. Part of it is knowing what kind of artistry you're suited for: Irina Slutskaya is an artistic skater in a totally different way than Sasha Cohen is. I don't think there's anything wrong in being taught to be artistic, any more than I would deem it a fault in a skater that she went to another coach to improve her jump technique.

I'm not terribly partisan to either skater (though I'm not sure that's allowed ;-) ). I think Cohen has gorgeous line (from which derives most of her artistry) and absolutely stunning spins. I think I prefer Cohen's skating in general, but I'm more willing to bet on Kwan because of her incredible poise and tendency not to choke. Consistency means a lot in sports and skating is a sport.

Kwan may be only winning if "someone else makes a mistake", but that's, um, sometimes how sports works. Football games are sometimes decided because one team throws an interception. And while the team that lost may be better on paper, you'll often hear "they played the better game." I'm not sure who would win if both brought their A-games, but you know, you can only have that competition if everyone DOES bring their A-game.

Technically though -- armless laybacks and arm-y laybacks count the same, the footwork sequences are being marked the same (at least at the last Worlds), neither has a reliable 3/3. Point totals at the last Worlds only had Cohen ahead of Kwan by 14 points. It's a significant difference, but not an overwhelming one that shows that Cohen's technique is light-years ahead.

Seems a little strange to want the #4 finisher at Worlds to retire so badly. I kinda like having two strong ladies on the American team and it's not like MK is taking a place that someone else deserves more.

[yvettedeena]

I quite agree, she has absolutely nothing to gain from winning an Olympic gold medal, so the question I keep having is, why is she even competing!

Well, the obvious thing that she has to gain from winning an Olympic gold medal is an Olympic gold medal! That's sounds like reason enough to me.

[nyskatefan]

I have to hand it to you loveskating ... you have a very creative way of looking at things.

Let me just make sure I understand you correctly. Michelle's jumps are very, very tiny ... compared of course to Sasha's blockbuster jumps. Michelle has only done the easiest 3/3's, and the last one was in 2001 ... so they don't count anymore. Compared of course to Sasha's one ... that's right ... one ... 3/3 she did in 2003. But because that was a more difficult 3/3, she gets credit for that until whenever.
And we don't want to overlook Sasha's fabulous 3flip/2toe. I don't see many senior ladies doing flip combinations these days. Ooops ... Michelle did a 3flip/2toe/2loop at Worlds. But I guess we don't count that either, right? But we will count Sasha's 3flip/2t/2t at Worlds, right?
Is this how it works?

Funny thing is ... for as pathetic a jumper as Michelle apparently is, you would think someone could beat her at Nationals ... at some point.
I'm sure there must be a reason for that. I bet the judges cheated. Yeah, that must be it.

[Lark]

Michelle to me is a very good student of skating, extremely consistant in the basics, and very reliable in her ability to compete under tremendous pressure.
However, try as I might, I have never felt anything watching her skate. I believe that she skates with a wonderful sense of pride and confidence, but without the slightest bit of natural artistry.

I almost agree with this statement.
Michelle is a great skater, as in basics. I would not say that she does not have *ANY* natural artistry. She is no Oksana Baiul, but, uhm, who is? Besides Oksana! LOL
I have seen a few programs of Michelles where I felt goosebumbs GALORE!
I think the 2004 and 2005 US Nationals LP's were 2 such times.
I think Michelles main problem is that she thinks wayyyy too much while performing. She is way too analytical.
Having said that, I do feel that Sasha has something, a bit of style and pinache.
HOWEVER, I feel that Sasha lacks any type of confidence in her performance.
Has Sasha ever had a totally clean program? She cannot hold it together.

Not bashing either skater, but neither is majorly outstanding, like Tara.
Tara Lipinski, in my opinion, was a female Plushenko.
Neither Michelle nor Sasha could touch her.

[loveskating]

I have to hand it to you loveskating ... you have a very creative way of looking at things.

Let me just make sure I understand you correctly. Michelle's jumps are very, very tiny ... compared of course to Sasha's blockbuster jumps. Michelle has only done the easiest 3/3's, and the last one was in 2001 ... so they don't count anymore. Compared of course to Sasha's one ... that's right ... one ... 3/3 she did in 2003. But because that was a more difficult 3/3, she gets credit for that until whenever.
And we don't want to overlook Sasha's fabulous 3flip/2toe. I don't see many senior ladies doing flip combinations these days. Ooops ... Michelle did a 3flip/2toe/2loop at Worlds. But I guess we don't count that either, right? But we will count Sasha's 3flip/2t/2t at Worlds, right?
Is this how it works?

Funny thing is ... for as pathetic a jumper as Michelle apparently is, you would think someone could beat her at Nationals ... at some point.
I'm sure there must be a reason for that. I bet the judges cheated. Yeah, that must be it.

I did not say ANY of that. You seem very confused and you addressed nothing I actually said.

I'll try to clarify for you. I'm saying that MK's 3 flip/2 tl is tiny [as to ice coverage and height] and that her 3 flip/2 toe/2 loop was tiny too, but I am not saying that most of MK's jumps are tiny.

However, I AM saying that neither Sasha's nor Michelle's jumps are huge...except Sasha's 2 axel is huge and her 3 sal is pretty big.

In this field of skaters, its Irina who has the huge jumps. Kimmie might equal her, however, depending on how Kimmie does.

I'm also saying that I think its more likely somone like Irina, Arakawa, Ando etc, or Sasha, who have landed 3 lutz/3 toe loop or 3 lutz/3 loop in competition before can do it again....I could be wrong, but that is my ANALYSIS! To skate at your previously demonstrated best is not as hard as doing something you have never done before. Now I know Kwan has landed 3/3 toe loop numerous times, and it was very, very solid too, but she has not done so since 2001, and I think she is in physical decline so I doubt she can do it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my analysis.

Element for element, Kwan has never been among the great technical contrubutors...technically, what MK did was to make the second lutz necessary, 7 triples necessary!

That is a great contribution which advanced the sport, but its about stamina and quantity -- not adding to quality, like inventing an element or doing the first quad or outstanding height and ice coverage like Ito and Harding!

Kwan usually won vs. someone like Tara, with outstanding technical advantage over her, on the PRESENTATION mark...and its on that aspect that Sasha has surpassed Michelle, as well as technically on a number of elements, including spins, especially the layback, the fan spiral, the Charlotte, etc.

Let me clue you in...I am not "anti-Kwan" so get off my back! I am also not a gushing fan.

[crayonskater]

Mmm... well if we're going on past performances (tenuously construed), then we have to say at the next Olympics, MK will miss her 3flip and Sasha will fall over on some random element that we know she can do in her sleep while some teensy newcomer slips away with the gold medal. Because the past, or what's on paper, always determines future events. :roll:

I don't know if MK can land a 3/3. She hasn't in a while, but 2003's a long time ago, too (and Sasha's a lot younger -- this should be her prime!). Irina came back from having a major heart problem, though, so, who knows? I kinda doubt MK will have a 3/3 but I'm sure this past Worlds was a wake-up call.

I'm still not sure of why the demand for MK to retire; at the very least, by hanging around she's ensuring a 'Sasha-Michelle' showdown for the press to talk about and get everyone some airtime and more endorsement money. Sasha's pretty interesting on her own, but MK's still a better story and the two of them together makes a really good story.

I mean, if MK quit, Sasha'd probably have a bunch of National championships, but it's not like that's a good reason for someone to retire.

[nyskatefan]

I did not say ANY of that. You seem very confused and you addressed nothing I actually said.



Whatever you say. :frus:

[shadymc]

Sasha has landed a 3 lutz/3 toe loop in competition, at Worlds, 2003 if I recall, and Kwan has never even attempted a combination that difficult.

Michelle attempted a 3 lutz/3 loop at 2001 Skate Canada. She fell, but she did attempt it.


Michelle's last 3/3 was landed successfully at worlds' 02 qualifying round, not in '01.

I'm also saying that I think its more likely somone like Irina, Arakawa, Ando etc, or Sasha, who have landed 3 lutz/3 toe loop or 3 lutz/3 loop in competition before can do it again.

Your analysis might well be correct, but I would not include Sasha in that group. Sasha landed it successfully once after 2 years of trying, and it was badly underrotated, and would never count under COP. I think she is far less able to complete a 3/3 under COP with the new standards. The reason for her improvement in consistency was the dropping of first the 4 sal (which she was never close to doing in a runthrough, and not even consistent with on the sidelines) and then dropping the 3/3. Sasha at present could never even attempt a 3/3 and hope to land it and then have any kind of consistency in the program.

Neither Michelle or Sasha have jumpers' bodies. Even hiring a jump specialist for a coach and new trainers haven't done Michelle any good in developing the strength needed for more difficult 3/3's. She has been seen doing them easily in practice, but I will not be impressed until she can do them in a runthrough. If she does break through this year and can land them in competition (after I faint) then I would like to see Sasha hire both Artunian and Michelle's trainers next year after Michelle presumably retires.

[likes2skate]

I did not say ANY of that. You seem very confused and you addressed nothing I actually said.

I'll try to clarify for you. I'm saying that MK's 3 flip/2 tl is tiny [as to ice coverage and height] and that her 3 flip/2 toe/2 loop was tiny too, but I am not saying that most of MK's jumps are tiny.

However, I AM saying that neither Sasha's nor Michelle's jumps are huge...except Sasha's 2 axel is huge and her 3 sal is pretty big.

In this field of skaters, its Irina who has the huge jumps. Kimmie might equal her, however, depending on how Kimmie does.

I'm also saying that I think its more likely somone like Irina, Arakawa, Ando etc, or Sasha, who have landed 3 lutz/3 toe loop or 3 lutz/3 loop in competition before can do it again....I could be wrong, but that is my ANALYSIS! To skate at your previously demonstrated best is not as hard as doing something you have never done before. Now I know Kwan has landed 3/3 toe loop numerous times, and it was very, very solid too, but she has not done so since 2001, and I think she is in physical decline so I doubt she can do it. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is my analysis.

Element for element, Kwan has never been among the great technical contrubutors...technically, what MK did was to make the second lutz necessary, 7 triples necessary!

That is a great contribution which advanced the sport, but its about stamina and quantity -- not adding to quality, like inventing an element or doing the first quad or outstanding height and ice coverage like Ito and Harding!

Kwan usually won vs. someone like Tara, with outstanding technical advantage over her, on the PRESENTATION mark...and its on that aspect that Sasha has surpassed Michelle, as well as technically on a number of elements, including spins, especially the layback, the fan spiral, the Charlotte, etc.

Let me clue you in...I am not "anti-Kwan" so get off my back! I am also not a gushing fan.

First off...please do not accuse me of being a gushing MK fan when I present this perspective to you... :)

I guess I just don't understand why you are including Sasha with skaters who consistantly land their 3/3's, when she only landed 1 in her whole senior career? And I agree with the person who said her consistency became a lot better when she took the 3/3 and quad out of her programs. I think it is great that she attempted a difficult 3/3, but she only landed it once out of about 3 years of attempting it, and she has not attempted it the last two years.

I wonder why Sasha didn't just try the 3t/3t in 2004 and 2005, instead of just eliminating a 3/3 from her program? I wonder a lot of things about a lot of skaters though too...

[shadymc]

I wonder why Sasha didn't just try the 3t/3t in 2004 and 2005, instead of just eliminating a 3/3 from her program? I wonder a lot of things about a lot of skaters though too...

Because, while a 3 toe is considered the easier jump of all triples, it is not so for every skater. Sasha has had a lot of trouble with this jump over the years. She has fared better with the 3 sal and 3 loop, which are considered more difficult. I feel she is more comfortable with the edge jumps, whereas I think skaters like Michelle like the toe pick jumps better.

[Tapper]

the post I referred to said MK was born with artistry.
I saw her without it.

There never was anything innately natural or talented about her "artistry" and for me there still is just an obvious lack of it in her programs.
MK does though skate with tremendous confidence based on her reliable jumps.
Grace, rhythm, extension, musicality...those are artistic qualities that Sasha has always had. Natural talent.

I totally disagree with you. MK's grace, rhythm, and musicality are certainly rooted in an innate artistic talent, otherwise she never could have developed into the skater she is today. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[Michigansk8er]

the post I referred to said MK was born with artistry.
I saw her without it.
Her handlers then began a determined and very focused effort to remold her on-ice persona .

I agree. Am I the only one that remembers the "Up Close & Personal" segment her second year on the senior scene...........where they showed her in a leotard learning to feel the music?

[Tapper]

I agree. Am I the only one that remembers the "Up Close & Personal" segment her second year on the senior scene...........where they showed her in a leotard learning to feel the music?


No, you aren't the only one who saw that. I saw it also. They were all excited because she was beginning to develop as an artist.

In other words, she began to develop her god-given natural artistic talent. Just because she developed later than others doesn't mean she is void of artistic talent. That's what the program was all about... the discovery that she is an artist.

[tdnuva]

No, you aren't the only one who saw that. I saw it also. They were all excited because she was beginning to develop as an artist.

In other words, she began to develop her god-given natural artistic talent. Just because she developed later than others doesn't mean she is void of artistic talent. That's what the program was all about... the discovery that she is an artist.
It makes me sick, how inflated the use of "art" and "artist" has become. Someone who begins to move elegantly is not necessarily an artist......

[ice-princess]

Um, is it only me that thinks that this whole "artistry" thing is a VERY circular argument?:roll: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Just because one person sees MK as a very artistic skater, doesn't mean another person will....

I myself think thet MK displays excellent artistry in most of her programs-more so than Sasha. But if you don't...good for you. Its a personal opinion.

It just seems to me that its more worthwhile to focus on the skaters' technical aspects because you can actually base a solid argument on them.

[Tapper]

Um, is it only me that thinks that this whole "artistry" thing is a VERY circular argument?:roll: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Just because one person sees MK as a very artistic skater, doesn't mean another person will....

I myself think thet MK displays excellent artistry in most of her programs-more so than Sasha. But if you don't...good for you. Its a personal opinion.

It just seems to me that its more worthwhile to focus on the skaters' technical aspects because you can actually base a solid argument on them.

It's not just you. It is a circular argument. Different people have different conceptions of what "art" is. The only point I really want to make is that MK's artistic talent is as "natural" as everyone else's. The fact that it wasn't awakened until she was 14(?) or so doesn't mean she is any less innately artistically talented than Sasha or anyone else.

Fortunately, there are people in the world who can spot nascent talent and artistry and nurture it.

[Tapper]

It makes me sick, how inflated the use of "art" and "artist" has become. Someone who begins to move elegantly is not necessarily an artist......

True. Both MK and Sasha are athletes. Do either of them think of themselves first and foremost as artists?

I'm just arguing against the p.o.v. that MK, because she began to develop "artistry" after she was 12, has no innate/natural artistic ability. I say, you can't develop what isn't there, and that MK (in MHO, of course) having grown in her artistry, has developed her innate gifts.

Sorry you got sick. I'm starting to get rather sick myself.

[Chico]

As a skater I know that learning how to do a skill comes before you make it pretty. At least for me. =-) As a young skater I'm sure Michelle learned how to skate and present herself before the focus turned to her as an "artist". Having the ability to skate to the music is sorta natural but it also takes practice and focus. Learning to present yourself in your best light takes work. The real dcussion is on natural grace and an ability to hear music. I think both girls do this. Sasha might beat Michelle on grace with her pretty extension but Michelle does seem to hear music on the norm better. I agree, Bolero didn't work. Both girls are lovely, just enjoy them for that.

[loveskating]

Its a circular argument and a philisteine argument as well to speak of artistry unless you can specifically describe what you are talking about in skating. Most skating fans will not or cannot go near that issue and I'm not sure why.

In opera if you can only belt it out, if you cannot sing pianissimo as well as forte, if you do not possess the TECHNICAL ABILITY to color the aria or whatever with various techincal embellishments, then you cannot possibly ever sing in an opera house. So it is in skating as well, where the COP has recognized that such things as innovation, difficult jump entries, and all sorts of in betweens add ARTISTRY to any program. Artistry is no longer totally undefined in skating, and frankly, this is where Kwan is serously lacking...no difficult jump entries, too many strokes etc.

Next to technique of the highest quality, there is simply the characteristic of the singer, and skater as well. Kwan's two main characteristics are that she seems vulnerable, and that she appears to float over the ice...for me, that quality is overcome by the fact that since 2001 I don't believe she has gone for it...when you are holdling back, nursing weaknsses, etc. you are not doing the prime artistic thing, which is to go for it 100%.

There are other necessary aspects of artistry...that the music suit the skater being a prime one! Bolero did not suit Kwan's characteristics at all.

[ice-princess]

Kwan's two main characteristics are that she seems vulnerable, and that she appears to float over the ice...for me, that quality is overcome by the fact that since 2001 I don't believe she has gone for it...

There are other necessary aspects of artistry...that the music suit the skater being a prime one! Bolero did not suit Kwan's characteristics at all.

Just wanted to ask what you meant by vulnerable? Is that a characteristic that ANY skater really wants to have? I mean, weak...helpless...defenceless :??
Would that really HELP you? In competition too? When you want to appear in control of the ice for the judges? I don't think so.

I don't even think that its a characteristic of MK's skating because she mostly seems sure of what she's doing out there. And i'm kind've glad that Bolero did not suit her apperent "vulnerable " characteristic. (I'm still not quite sure what that means. Should she have chosen fairy music??)

But hey, its just my opinion

[loveskating]

Just wanted to ask what you meant by vulnerable? Is that a characteristic that ANY skater really wants to have? I mean, weak...helpless...defenceless :??
Would that really HELP you? In competition too? When you want to appear in control of the ice for the judges? I don't think so.

I don't even think that its a characteristic of MK's skating because she mostly seems sure of what she's doing out there. And i'm kind've glad that Bolero did not suit her apperent "vulnerable " characteristic. (I'm still not quite sure what that means. Should she have chosen fairy music??)

But hey, its just my opinion

In this instance, the word vulnerable was used (by me) to describe an essential artistic quality, which is an openness of the soul, commonly referred to as "vulnerablity". No one in any theatrical type or performance artistic endeavor can ever be truly great without this quality, so calm down Kwaniac! I'm not attacking Kwan, to the contrary, I am complimenting her!

The issue of choosing the right music for the specific artist comes up in most arts...for instance, Joan Sutherland, a truly great opera singer, could not play Violeta in La Traviata because she simply did not look the part on stage, but she could sing it on a recording...however, Sutherland was the perfect Lucia de Lammermoor on stage, and she owned that part during her career. Marella Freni, equally great, could never play Tosca on the stage, but she could sing the heck out of it.

Similarly, Kwan is a lyrical skater...thus Bolero was not a good choice for her, although it took courage for her to try it. Likewise, music from La Traviata, which is very lyrical, was not such a good choice for Irina a few years ago, because she was unable to quite reach the fluidity that music reqires on the ice, but it also took courage for her to try it.

[Tapper]

In this instance, the word vulnerable was used (by me) to describe an essential artistic quality, which is an openness of the soul, commonly referred to as "vulnerablity". No one in any theatrical type or performance artistic endeavor can ever be truly great without this quality...



Now that you mention it, I do think that is in part what makes me feel for her when she skates. How interesting. I recognize that quality when I see it on the screen or on the stage, but I had never quite thought of how it might apply to MK.

[loveskating]

Now that you mention it, I do think that is in part what makes me feel for her when she skates. How interesting. I recognize that quality when I see it on the screen or on the stage, but I had never quite thought of how it might apply to MK.

She has always had that quality, in spades...but she is not the only one. This is a "characteristic" of her personality, it is something one is born with...and it can be great in one circumstance, but not in another...Pavarotti is also vulnerable, open, and thus the consumate Nemorino, but not the ultimate in Il Trovatore...too much vulnerability for that role.

Sasha, according to my daughter, is so exquisite and technically proficient that my daughter says she practically hyperventillates watching her skate...she feels very happy and giddy watching Sasha...that too is a kind of vulnerability, but it is more of the body, more of the voice if it were opera.

My main point is that there is a lot we know that defines "artistry" in figure skating but somehow, skating fans are unwilling to discuss the pieces and parts of this issue. Hmmm.

[Tapper]

Sasha, according to my daughter, is so exquisite and technically proficient that my daughter says she practically hyperventillates watching her skate...she feels very happy and giddy watching Sasha...that too is a kind of vulnerability, but it is more of the body, more of the voice if it were opera.

My main point is that there is a lot we know that defines "artistry" in figure skating but somehow, skating fans are unwilling to discuss the pieces and parts of this issue. Hmmm.

Ah, the true meaning of "breathtaking" comes to light! Wow, that's a pretty extraordinary experience, indeed, for anyone to have. She's blessed to have that kind of sensitivity to beauty.

Regarding discussing 'artistry' in figure skating... I try. But I'm not a figure skater, so I can only apply my understanding of "artistry" from working in other art forms... and that may be a problem for some.

[likes2skate]

IMO Sasha's flexability is sometimes mistaken for artistry. The positions she hits are 8O but I do not necesserely think she is connecting to her music ie nats LP 03-05. She seems distracted when she skates...to me anyway.

[ice-princess]

Thanks for the explanation loveskating, I understand now :lol:
Now that I think about it, I do recognise that quality in MK's skating. Sasha too. And Irina. I guess that thats what really makes them great skaters : its really moving to watch them.


How did you guess I was a Kwaniac? Am I really so transparent? :oops: :lol:

[loveskating]

IMO Sasha's flexability is sometimes mistaken for artistry. The positions she hits are 8O but I do not necesserely think she is connecting to her music ie nats LP 03-05. She seems distracted when she skates...to me anyway.

Really? How so? Being unusually flexible is a requirement of being an accomplished figure skater...all the skaters are very flexible, Sasha is just a bit more flexible. In skating, you express a thought or subject mostly through your body...and being more flexible means you have more goods to express ideas with is all. You also can stand out from the others, do variations, which the COP respects now. (Remember Mishketunok and Kazakova, both Demietriev's partners...SOOOO FLEXIBLE it was amazing).

When any skater is having problems, they seem distracted...very few of them avoid this. Sasha normally does not seem distracted to me, not at all...I love seeing her skate each of those incredible elements of hers...I've never seen anyone do most of them so well. I also really love her jumps because they explode and have a great arc, and her air position is like Irina's or Plushenko's....very strong "proper backspin position" in the air.

In any artistry, great technique supports great artistic expression. Take Sasha's front catch spin....the caught knee is a bit straighter, a bit more pointed, the spinning leg is straighter, and she gets more and faster rotations than anyone else, ever...so she can do it better by the standards already set by say, Galindo, and that means it looks better, lasts longer, etc. all of which any fan should adore.

Also, when you have lots of high quality elements, you can provide more highlights to support the highlights in the music.

[7302005]

When any skater is having problems, they seem distracted...very few of them avoid this. Sasha normally does not seem distracted to me, not at all...I love seeing her skate each of those incredible elements of hers...I've never seen anyone do most of them so well. I also really love her jumps because they explode and have a great arc, and her air position is like Irina's or Plushenko's....very strong "proper backspin position" in the air.

I believe that your daughter's statement says it - she gets giddy when she watches Sasha skate. What one person sees as artistry, another will see differently. To me, Sasha is almost always distracted and one knows that somewhere a mistake will be made. Generally a silly mistake. For me it is not just the skater being distracted but the viewer being distracted by wondering if another silly mistake will be made.

I do think that she has a near perfect layback - with excellent positions. However, I think the "pull the leg up, wrap your knee into your face" spin is one of the worst spin positions that I have seen. Unfortunately, skaters try to be "Sasha" like and copy this spin. I can't remember what the skater's name is (from the last season) who quite simply dioes this spin better than anyone, including Sasha.

Several of Sasha's on camera and off camera actions leave me with the impression that she does and has had the "world" spin around her. It is amazing what you can observe, when you are a nobody sitting in hotel lobby. And it is not just her behavior that I have observed - there are many other skaters who fall into that category.

I personally would like to see both Michelle and Sasha try something different this season. I don't know exactly what - that's why the world has choreographers. Just that I would like to see a different formula for each for the upcoming season.

[likes2skate]

Really? How so? Being unusually flexible is a requirement of being an accomplished figure skater...all the skaters are very flexible, Sasha is just a bit more flexible. In skating, you express a thought or subject mostly through your body...and being more flexible means you have more goods to express ideas with is all. You also can stand out from the others, do variations, which the COP respects now. (Remember Mishketunok and Kazakova, both Demietriev's partners...SOOOO FLEXIBLE it was amazing).

When any skater is having problems, they seem distracted...very few of them avoid this. Sasha normally does not seem distracted to me, not at all...I love seeing her skate each of those incredible elements of hers...I've never seen anyone do most of them so well. I also really love her jumps because they explode and have a great arc, and her air position is like Irina's or Plushenko's....very strong "proper backspin position" in the air.

In any artistry, great technique supports great artistic expression. Take Sasha's front catch spin....the caught knee is a bit straighter, a bit more pointed, the spinning leg is straighter, and she gets more and faster rotations than anyone else, ever...so she can do it better by the standards already set by say, Galindo, and that means it looks better, lasts longer, etc. all of which any fan should adore.

Also, when you have lots of high quality elements, you can provide more highlights to support the highlights in the music.

I get what you are saying, and I think all skaters are more flexible than the Average Joe...but I don't care if Irina stretched for 48 hours straight, she would never be able to hit the position Sasha hits in her spiral, and I think Sasha has a natural gift to hit those positions where as others such as MK, IS, etc... will never be able to hit them. Having that talent highlights the program, thus being thought of as "artistry", but it has nothing to do with showing a connection to the music. IMO. Take 2004's biggest events GPF, Nats, and Worlds (I will not use 2005 season as an example because she was injured). In all 3 of those LP's, she looked scared, and uncomfortable, distracted and there was no excitement. She was, however, able to hit the positions no one else can, and was rewarded with 5.9's and even a 6.0 at Nationals. IMO her spiral, pointed toes, layback, etc... are more technical than artistic.

04 Worlds Sp was amazing and at that phase of the competition she deserved I think straight 6.0's for artistry, but I have never seen her skate like that before that competition or after that competition. IF she skated like that all the time then I would be singing a different tune. :)

[likes2skate]

I believe that your daughter's statement says it - she gets giddy when she watches Sasha skate. What one person sees as artistry, another will see differently. To me, Sasha is almost always distracted and one knows that somewhere a mistake will be made. Generally a silly mistake. For me it is not just the skater being distracted but the viewer being distracted by wondering if another silly mistake will be made.

I do think that she has a near perfect layback - with excellent positions. However, I think the "pull the leg up, wrap your knee into your face" spin is one of the worst spin positions that I have seen. Unfortunately, skaters try to be "Sasha" like and copy this spin. I can't remember what the skater's name is (from the last season) who quite simply dioes this spin better than anyone, including Sasha.

Several of Sasha's on camera and off camera actions leave me with the impression that she does and has had the "world" spin around her. It is amazing what you can observe, when you are a nobody sitting in hotel lobby. And it is not just her behavior that I have observed - there are many other skaters who fall into that category.

I personally would like to see both Michelle and Sasha try something different this season. I don't know exactly what - that's why the world has choreographers. Just that I would like to see a different formula for each for the upcoming season.

Just curious what on camera off camera incidents have you witnessed? I would have agreed with you a few years ago, but since the last Olympics, I think she has been really gracious and sincere... :?:

[loveskating]

Well, we were discussing the components of artistry in skating, not the character of the skaters...however, I've seen Sasha up at Newington and followed her very closely, and I've seen nothing to complain about, to the contrary, she is a very nice person.

I find Sasha's skating very exciting, even when she makes a mistake, because she is pushing it so much, going for it, doing things better or at least as well as the highest standard set previously.

For me, that is the ultimate atristic component, to go for it 100%.

Of course, in some performances, like everyone else, she has held back, so I just enjoy her fabulous elements when that is the case.


Thats called a side catch spin you don't like that Sasha does...I love it, find it athletically magnificent, and its very, very hard to do; other skaters do it because they know its very hard, very challenging.

[loveskating]

[QUOTE=likes2skate]I get what you are saying, and I think all skaters are more flexible than the Average Joe...but I don't care if Irina stretched for 48 hours straight, she would never be able to hit the position Sasha hits in her spiral, and I think Sasha has a natural gift to hit those positions where as others such as MK, IS, etc... will never be able to hit them. Having that talent highlights the program, thus being thought of as "artistry", but it has nothing to do with showing a connection to the music. IMO.QUOTE]

I disagree...having a spiral like that enables one to use that spiral as a highlight on one of the highlights of the music...that is artistry, and it was so for Kwan in her original Rach SP in 1998, and its so for Sasha now.

The more spectacular elements you have, the more you can make more highlights of the music important.

Its like in opera, if your voice blooms at the top, you can do more with it artistically....thus Pavarotti can color the high note in che gelida manina in La Boheme with the emotion of absolute longing, wheras no other tenor I know of could come close to having the goods to express that feeling precisely on that note. That is why people have been so moved, have cheered for the first time to that aria when he sang that note, whether in Modina, Italy in 1969 or Peking, China over 20 years later!

This is where the technical and the artistic meet and merge, if you will...the more you have techically, and relative to the field of skaters, then the more you can express artistically if you choose to do so.

P.S. Sasha used her spiral for the highlight in un bel di from Madama Butterfly in her 2000 US Nationals exhibition, and it was the first time I'd seen anyone do so. I thought it perfection. Others have done a jump on that hightlight...but the song is about having faith, believing in someone over whom you have no control...Sasha's arms spread wide, in a magnficent spiral, fit the musical phrase to perfection! Obviously, you could not do that if you had a mediocre sprial.

[likes2skate]

[QUOTE=likes2skate]I get what you are saying, and I think all skaters are more flexible than the Average Joe...but I don't care if Irina stretched for 48 hours straight, she would never be able to hit the position Sasha hits in her spiral, and I think Sasha has a natural gift to hit those positions where as others such as MK, IS, etc... will never be able to hit them. Having that talent highlights the program, thus being thought of as "artistry", but it has nothing to do with showing a connection to the music. IMO.QUOTE]

I disagree...having a spiral like that enables one to use that spiral as a highlight on one of the highlights of the music...that is artistry, and it was so for Kwan in her original Rach SP in 1998, and its so for Sasha now.

The more spectacular elements you have, the more you can make more highlights of the music important.

Its like in opera, if your voice blooms at the top, you can do more with it artistically....thus Pavarotti can color the high note in che gelida manina in La Boheme with the emotion of absolute longing, wheras no other tenor I know of could come close to having the goods to express that feeling precisely on that note. That is why people have been so moved, have cheered for the first time to that aria when he sang that note, whether in Modina, Italy in 1969 or Peking, China over 20 years later!

This is where the technical and the artistic meet and merge, if you will...the more you have techically, and relative to the field of skaters, then the more you can express artistically if you choose to do so.

P.S. Sasha used her spiral for the highlight in un bel di from Madama Butterfly in her 2000 US Nationals exhibition, and it was the first time I'd seen anyone do so. I thought it perfection. Others have done a jump on that hightlight...but the song is about having faith, believing in someone over whom you have no control...Sasha's arms spread wide, in a magnficent spiral, fit the musical phrase to perfection! Obviously, you could not do that if you had a mediocre sprial.


I guess that is where the skating viewer is different. IMO yes her spiral is amazing and really highlights the program, but if the program is also has mistakes and is not skated with enthuziasm, a magnificant spiral makes little or no difference to me. But everyone has their own opinion so I guess we can agree to disagree. :)

[7302005]

What I have observed is rude behavior on elevators - like "SIGH" when someone gets on. Or impatient pushing of elevator buttons - like hurry up, hurry up, I don't have time for this....Sure, everyone is in a hurry, everyone needs to get to practice or prepare for competition, but just because the elevator makes one more stop - we peons are putting you out? Should there be an elevator for the VIPs and the peon elevators?

I do not have to deal with fans or others so it may be unfair of me, but there are things like common courtesy.

Last year, I was on the elevator with Johnny Weir. Now, I told him how thrilling his skating was to me and probably just sounded like a crazed fan. Unknown to either one of us, we got off on the same floor and my room was next to his. Even though he was probably thinking "is this a potential stalker?", he was very polite to me. He could have been rude, but he wasn't and he didn't make me feel as if I was a problem or a pain (he could have been thinking it, but didn't act like it)

I know that likes2skate and I will never agree on this or the artistry...we will just have to agree to disagree.

[loveskating]

'I guess that is where the skating viewer is different. IMO yes her spiral is amazing and really highlights the program, but if the program is also has mistakes and is not skated with enthuziasm, a magnificant spiral makes little or no difference to me. But everyone has their own opinion so I guess we can agree to disagree."

I must agree with you that going for it 100% is the most important artistic quality in skating! That's why Michelle has bothered me so much for the past few years, basically since 2001, with a few exceptions, I feel she phoned it in.

I just think some fans prefer skaters who stay on their feet, and that often means that the more conservative and even less gifted skater is their favorite, rather like Domingo in opera, while other fans perhaps prefer the highest levels of technique where the excitement comes from, like Sarah landing two 3/3s or Kulik landing that quad or Yagudin that 4/3/2 at the Olympics. Personally, I always enjoyed Boitano in his prime because even if I did not particularly like his program, I could always enjoy his incredible 3 axel, which at the time was the best ever IMHO, and his arabian, his Tano lutz etc. I feel the same way about Sasha...there is ALWAYS somethign to make me smile with delight, even when she blows it overall.

I also MUCH perfered Pavarotti, who IMHO had the greatest gifts and the highest level of technique, or even a huge risk taker like di Stephano who just sang his heart out (and ruined his voice early doing it) to folks like Domingo, although I loved Domingo.

[likes2skate]

'I guess that is where the skating viewer is different. IMO yes her spiral is amazing and really highlights the program, but if the program is also has mistakes and is not skated with enthuziasm, a magnificant spiral makes little or no difference to me. But everyone has their own opinion so I guess we can agree to disagree."

I must agree with you that going for it 100% is the most important artistic quality in skating! That's why Michelle has bothered me so much for the past few years, basically since 2001, with a few exceptions, I feel she phoned it in.

I just think some fans prefer skaters who stay on their feet, and that often means that the more conservative and even less gifted skater is their favorite, rather like Domingo in opera, while other fans perhaps prefer the highest levels of technique where the excitement comes from, like Sarah landing two 3/3s or Kulik landing that quad or Yagudin that 4/3/2 at the Olympics. Personally, I always enjoyed Boitano in his prime because even if I did not particularly like his program, I could always enjoy his incredible 3 axel, which at the time was the best ever IMHO, and his arabian, his Tano lutz etc. I feel the same way about Sasha...there is ALWAYS somethign to make me smile with delight, even when she blows it overall.

I also MUCH perfered Pavarotti, who IMHO had the greatest gifts and the highest level of technique, or even a huge risk taker like di Stephano who just sang his heart out (and ruined his voice early doing it) to folks like Domingo, although I loved Domingo.

I agree Kwan has phoned it in since 2001, especially during the 04-05 season. I did not enjoy 1 performance of Borlero, except Campbells, because I thought it was a "work in progress". I enjoyed the 03 and 04 programs, but again, they were not challenging for her at all. Honestly, it did not seem to me she was up for a challenge since before the 02 Olympics.

[passion]

WeBeEducated,
I have seen many adult skaters with talent. Talent comes froms inside a person and age has nothing to do with it. Talent comes from natural ability, body structure, ability to work hard and a love and appreciation for the sport. (Being pretty darn brave helps too.) I'm a firm believer this is true for children as well as adults.
Chico

Just a little note here regarding your comment, but may be a bit off topic:I agree totally that talent comes from inside a person and age has nothing to do with it. Speaking about artistic talent, when an adult skater shows artistic talent, I think there is a tendency for people to say, well, that's because she is an adult and therefore, she has the emotional maturity that a kid doesn't have. That artistic talent may not actually be recognized as such because of that thinking. I have to disagree with that thinking because there are lots of adults who have no clue about artistry and it shows. Hypothetically speaking, if an adult skater has artistic talent, and suppose she started skating as a child instead, I would geuss that you would probably see that artistic talent if that adult skater was a child skater, too.

[loveskating]

I agree Kwan has phoned it in since 2001, especially during the 04-05 season. I did not enjoy 1 performance of Borlero, except Campbells, because I thought it was a "work in progress". I enjoyed the 03 and 04 programs, but again, they were not challenging for her at all. Honestly, it did not seem to me she was up for a challenge since before the 02 Olympics.

I agree...but I think its because she has phypsically peaked, ...and conseqeuntly I don't think she can go higher technically than she did in 2001. I could be wrong, but that is my analysis.

[shadymc]

Loveskating, I have to both agree and disagree with you on that last post. I agree Michelle did peak in '01. However, since that time she has hired new trainers and a new coach in an effort to push beyond her comfort level. This training has been on-going since the end of the '03 season. Now, we don't know how well this will be reflected in her programs this year, but I do know that her body has changed, become tighter and more muscular. I also know that multiple practice reports have her landing 3/3's and 3/3/2's in practice. I don't know if she will reach her goal in being able to land these in comps, but I would like to see her try them out anyway, no matter what the result. Word was that she was attempting a 3 sal/3 loop at worlds, which is why she kept having trouble with the 3 sal. She never misses that jump and she lost it, presumably because she had to enter it differently because she was attempting the 3/3. In the end of season cheesefest, when Dick B was getting on her about landing the 3/3 so well in practice and not doing it in the program, he made his comments right after she did the 3 sal.