Torvill and Dean - Some of their moves too difficult for today?

[Luke]

I spent a very pleasant few hours last night trawling through a load of my old skating videos (along with a bottle of wine!) and it is of course amazing how much some of the disciplines have changed over the years. It struck me that there are very few moves that only one team or soloist has ever done. If a new move is attractive then it's common that in subsequent years someone else tries it - maybe even doing it better than the original, or as a variation.

I remember there was one move by Igor Bobrin that was like a sideways lateral twist - very unusual and I've never seen anything like it since. (Actually now I think about it I suppose it was quite an ugly move!).

However, the one that made me think was a Torvill and Dean move from their Paso Doble OSP in 1984. It comes towards the end of the circuit of the dance where Dean twists Torvill laterally like a spindle to land on a forward running edge. When it came off it was superbly effective and attractive. But quite often it didn't. They performed the OSP in 4 competitions, so they performed that particular move 12 times (the old Original Set Pattern was 3 circuits of the same dance) and made mistakes on 3 occasions (twice in the Olympics and once in the Worlds)..........so that's a success rate of only 75% - VERY low for T and D.

So my question is...........is this move too difficult for others to try? Or maybe it's now thought to be illegal?

Finally, are there any other moves that are completely unique to one skater/s?

[La Rhumba]

Thanks for your interesting post. :D

I certainly agree with you about Igor Bobrin's lateral twist - unique, though not very aesthetic! But since when did that ever stop skaters? ;)

Re T&D's moves :bow: Probably their most copied innovation was the lady taking the weight of the man. Several couples do this now. I was thinking it was first performed in the 94 Face The Music FD, where Chris flipped over Jayne's shoulder, but as I'm writing, I can see a picture of the Duchesnay's in my mind doing something similar, so whoever performed it first, it was T&D choreography.

I do agree that alot of their moves were deceptively intricate, and haven't been copied simply because others couldn't do them. Though they did cover up the *errors* on that twist in the 84 OSP very well - I think it was such an unusual move that people didn't always suspect that it wasn't done totally cleanly, as there was no break in the choreo to the music, and Jayne didn't end up on her back.

I've just ordered some old videos from the States of early Ice Dance material going back to the first Olympics in 76, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the sport has developed. My memories only go as far back as the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics. :)

But it does annoy me when competitors speak about the *technical requirements* of Dance today, implying that in the past they were non-existant, and only style mattered. :roll:
I'd like to see them skate 3 CDs at Worlds and Euros! :bow:

[La Rhumba]

Incidentally I posted a link to this topic on another T&D thread on FSU. :D

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?p=534507#post534507

I typed up a recent Jayne Torvill interview on TV in the UK, and posted it there, along with a general T&D Update. :)

Jayne actually talked very frankly about their 94 Comeback experience, and described some of the moves in their FD, which you may find interesting.

But I don't mean to hijack your thread. :oops:

[Luke]

But I don't mean to hijack your thread.

No problem!!! I was just grateful that someone replied to my first ever post to the Forum!

[flippet]

I just wanted to add that I thought this thread was very interesting....unfortunately, I don't know enough about it to be able to add anything to the discussion! But if anyone does, I'll certainly read. :)

[tdnuva]

Hmm... I've visited the thread now several times and never wrote anything. Cause I think the question is really tough to answer. At least for me. But as others maybe have the same problem - what about trying to find answers together. There are certain moves which T&D did and I _think_ I saw nobody else doing. But of course I did not watch all routines ever. So here are some original moves of T&D (afaik) and maybe someone knows of another skater/team who did them? And of course - who could name more? I am just trying to provide a second start ;)

- you mentioned the swing in Capriccio Espagnol
- same routine: at the end Jayne is spinning on her stomach
- Bolero: where Jayne kind of steps up in the air on Chris' hand
- Bolero: where Chris lifts Jayne with one hand and one leg
- Mack and Mabel: kind of a reverted "death" spiral where Chris is on his knees turning around Jayne standing
- Mack and Mabel: tap dancing in a nice dance hold (version of Kilian?)
- Mack and Mabel: Chris leaning over so that he is almost parallel to the ice and Jayne leaning over his back doing pique (?) steps
- Summertime: the end where again Jayne leans on Chris' back and they still spin that way a bit
- Barnum on ice: beginning where Chris holds Jayne's hand and leg and she twists thru his arms
- Barnum on ice: mimicking circus acrobats in the way that Jayne is "hanging" on Chris' arms like they were the wooden stick which hangs from the tent ceiling (i don't know the proper words)
- Barnum on ice: Jayne is lifted by Chris in front of him, she grabs his hips with her legs and then swings one revolution onto his bag thru his legs
- Barnum on ice: Jayne in front of Chris and he lifts her with his neck so that she makes a salto over him
- Variations on Paganini (Rock'n roll OSP): Jayne is "lying" almost parallel to the ice, her hands both in Chris' hands but in a way that she can "roll" horizontally one level lower over her own axis (there is surely more in that routine, but I am too tired to find more *g*)
- Encounter: one of my favorites (the routine and this move): Jayne skating in front of Chris, both turning 180 degrees, kneeling down, Jayne bending forwards and Chris backwards so that he can hold her head in his hands - the timing is fantastic (this routine for sure buries more.... and now I stop cause it seems I find tons of moves *gggg*)

[tdnuva]

Hmmm - was that too much? :halo:

[icedancer2]

Hee-hee -- it was a lot to digest, but I think your point is well-taken -- the choreography is very difficult!!

And they made it all seem so simple... (sigh).

[icenut84]

- Barnum on ice: Jayne in front of Chris and he lifts her with his neck so that she makes a salto over him

The only other skaters I can think of who did that move were Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze in their "The Kid" exhibition at the 2002 Olympics.

[tdnuva]

Dead silence.

Now - either all are shocked of the list (besides icenut *g*) or nobody used those moves besides B&S the one overhead-flip? :)