Ice Dancing: Which team is the strongest?

[LauraH]

I'll preface this by saying I'm not an ice dancer, but I've been paying a lot of attention to this for the past year and have been listening to the commentaries. For those who saw the Euros, can you tell me how Navka/Kostomarov managed to skate away with the gold? It boggles my mind. I have seen them do much better. A few reasons off the top of my head:

*twizzles were off--Kostomarov didn't have clean rotations.
*general lack of intensity in their program--their Euros program really put me to sleep. And was it me, or were they seriously lacking in speed (I think Belbin/Agosto are tops with this)? Some of their spins were so slow I thought I had my VCR on slo-mo!
*at the end of the program, the expression on Navka's face CLEARLY indicated she knew they'd made several mistakes and that this was not their best skate. Whereas the other teams (Israeli and French) were really happy with their performances and it showed.

I'm not that knowledgable about the difficulty levels of spins, lifts, etc. but the US commentators were WOW'd by the French and the Israeli teams' difficulty, not so much the Russians (or if they were they certainly didn't show it).

I know the US team Belbin/Agosto always lose to them at Worlds. To me, B/A are actually better.

Other teams that I think are better (or have much more exciting, showy, INVOLVED programs):
Galit Chait/Sergei ?--Israeli team.
Delobel/Schoenfelder--French team.

Thanks for any input,
Laura

[Aussie Willy]

Laura - I have to agree with you about the Euros - N&K were definately not on their best. And I don't think their circular footwork was that difficult either. And Roman's twizzles were not great either. I would need to check the video again to see which ones they were doing but I personally would have expected more.

My personal favourites were Delobel/Schoenfelder. That program was flawless, smooth, the music beautifully interpreted and their lifts are very difficult. And for this team I loved the costumes. And you can tell then have really thought about the music because it is almost like the moves were created from the music. And to add about D&S, I have always thought they were very good skaters but did really bad programs with bad costumes. So to say that I loved this program shows how highly I think of it. So personally I thought they deserved to win the FD.

As for the Israelis, I can't say that I thought that much of it. Their style of skating is too frenetic for my liking and I found it very much ho-hum watching it. Did not excite me at all. The feeling I got was they picked the music and then just put moves to it but showed no feeling for the music.

I did think Grushina/Goncharov deserved a medal. Again another team who I have not thought much of in the past but really enjoyed watching this time. They have really matured.

My other favs from Euros were Domina/Shabalin. I just love the way she moves and that program really worked with all the intricate choreography.

[LauraH]

Reading your post it's become more and more evident that the US really needs to up its coverage of skating. :frus: So frustrating when I want to see ALL of the teams, not just the top 3-4. The network only showed 4 teams: Ukraine, French, Israeli, Russian (in that order). Anyway, tonight I went back and watched the programs again with your comments in mind, and I see where you're coming from. I have to admit I'm partial to the "frenetic" pace you describe in the Israelis, but even to this lesser-trained eye, the French had better artistry and interpretation for sure (I also liked their music selection better). This is another part I feel the Russians really didn't do so well in. Again, watching their program on repeat made me feel a bit sleepy. I guess it was just an off day? They sweep the rink in ice dancing every time and have for years, right?

Thanks for your reply,
Laura

[icedancer2]

I guess it was just an off day? They sweep the rink in ice dancing every time and have for years, right?



Laura -- I agree with your observations and I do think the judging was a little nutty at Euros this year. I hope they straighten their heads out for Worlds!!

BUT the Russians have not always been on the top of the podium -- in recent years we have had:

Bourne/Kraatz - Canada - 2003
Anassina/Peizerat - France - 2002 (also Olympics)
Fusar-Poli/Margolio - Italy - 2001

So, it's not THAT bad!!

I have been watching Denkova and Stavisky and Delobel and Schoenfelder (both are D/S -- how will we tell them apart when we are discussing them??] for a few years now and could see both teams on the podium. But where does that leave Belbin and Augusto?

The dance field seems very deep to me this year (much like the men) -- and they can't all get medals -- it will be interesting to see how it all sorts out!

Good discussion! Thanks!

[alex4SA]

I feel for Galit Chait/Sergei Sakhnovsky...they've been great for years but have not been rewarded for their efforts...
As far as EC is concerned Delobel and Schoenfelder were excellent, Denkova & Stavsky pulled out...so we cannot be sure that N&K would have won....
B&A are very good too.....however the WC is in Moscow (we all know that this is an advantage...remember the Olympic Games or WCs)
We'll see

[LauraH]

Ah, thanks icedancer and alex for your replies. 20 years ago (really showing my age here) I took skating lessons and was obsessed with figure skating as a result, but have been away from it for so long (over a decade) that I have barely any recollection of old names and have missed soooo many good teams. I only started following this again in mid-2004, and am so upset that I missed so much! I can't figure out why I stopped!

[LauraH]

Unlike most participants on this board I don't consider myself a skater (always too uncoordinated to do well, though I did take lessons for awhile as a child)--so I don't understand a lot of these height discrepancies.

I was shocked to discover that most female skaters were only 5' tall--especially in pairs where the man is almost always overwhelmingly larger than the woman. If a woman gets "too tall" (say over 5'4"?) she has to switch to Dance. Why? It is because it's too difficult to land good jumps? But that doesn't explain how the guys at 5'9"-6'1" do it.

Thanks!

[Aussie Willy]

Laura - I got copies of Eurosport coverage so I got to see about 12 of the couples. It is always a shame when you only get to see a few so you might miss something that is a bit different (like the couple who did the number in cat outfits).

With pairs, the reason why the women are small is that the guys have to throw them and the overhead lifts. It was a trend started by the Russians in the 70s.

Laura - do you have tapes of the Duchenays? Watch them again and look at how small Paul is (or more the point is not that big). I didn't realise until one of the coaches at my rink mentioned it and then an ice dancing friend and myself watched them and really noticed it.

[LauraH]

Ah yes, that makes sense now.

US coverage of skating is pretty pathetic. If skating is listed for a 2-hour block, only approx. 1 hour of it actual skating footage (including when skaters are waiting for their marks, seeing them practice on the rink while commentators talk, etc.). It goes skate-commercial-skate-commercial down the line for the allotted amount of time and since commercials are nearing 4 minutes you see as much of those as you do the teams.

I don't have a tape of the Duchesnays--I had to look them up as the name didn't even ring a bell. They peaked during my hiatus from skating. He's listed as 1.8m (5'11"), so it would seem that the published info is wrong?

How tall is "too tall" for a woman in pairs? I have seen the range go from 4'11" - 5'5".

[loveskating]

My favorites are Belbin & Agosto but I think that so far, Navka & Kostamarov have been sightly overall the best...not every competion, but overall the best. They have those long, deep edges and a great line and that seamless quality to their skating. I love their program...its the best interpretation of Tosca I've seen on the ice, and I really respect her for wearing a RED dress, which is traditional for Tosca in the Opera.

IMHO B&A and N&K are currently the best so it all depends on the performances. I don't care all that much, because both teams are steller good...and I know that Belbin and Agosto will be great champions sooner or later, but it would be sweet if they won Worlds.

I don't think Chait and Sakhanovsky were all that good...he was really good, she was pretty awful, no EDGING; I've never seen anyone on their flats like she was; now she is better but still not up to the standard I am used to in ice dance for edging.

[LauraH]

Hi loveskating,

Can you explain what "edging" is? As a non-skater I have to rely a lot on commentators, and since I watch each performance at least 3 times I really pay attention to what they have to say. I'm slowly developing a pretty good eye for mistakes, etc., but it's still hard to pick up on the subtleties. I just noticed that N/K's twizzles were really out of synch at Worlds. It did not take a commentator to bring this to light. Actually, hers were fine; his were really off stepping quite noticeably out of two sets that caught my attention. I have seen them do much better, so it surprised me that they took Worlds when D/S, to me at least, seemed to have more more perfect synchroneity (now THEIR twizzles at Worlds were something to watch, and matched the music exactly). To be fair, I was quite impressed by N/K's clockwise-counterclockwise "lift" (don't know the name of it)--he threw her behind his back, then forward, then back, then landing on her feet to his side. Also, I have watched B/A many times, and they almost always have perfect twizzles...in synch...exceptional good speed and control.

Also, does it matter that female ice dancers are much taller? A lot of the dance pairs, B/A and N/K for example, are almost head-to-head, and while the girls aren't thrown the guys still have do lifts and such.

Thanks,
Laura