Which skaters do you wonder ....

[Aussie Willy]

... how they would have gone under the new system?

Lucinda Ruh definately because her spins are the best
Midori Ito - those jumps were amazing and she was so fast on the ice but wondering about the interpretation marks

So who would you like to add?

[essence_of_soy]

I still think Ito would have done just as well under CoP.

If you look at her short program from the 1988 Olympic Games, she had a lot of little nuances and choreographic transitions along with that speed, intricate spins and killer jumps.

Particularly if you look at elements like the reverse entry from a lutz takeoff into her double axel and both hands over her head on the double flip.

Her footwork also was very fast.

If she can be faulted for anything, her spiral position was weak although she still held very deep edges for this element.

Her Scheherezade free skate from 1990 is still masterful in that it highlighted her strengths. The perfect vehicle.

Nick

Aussie Willy, if you would like to e-mail me at my hotmail address, I have a proposal that you may be interested in.

[jcspkbfan]

The first skater that popped into my mind was Sebastien had-everything-it-took-to-win-a-world-medal-except-for-that-@#$%-3-axel Britten. I wonder if the judges would have rewarded Sebastien as richly back then under CoP as Jeff Buttle and Johnny Weir are being rewarded for their quadless-but-still-very-artistic-programs today.

[Ivan W]

The first skater that popped into my mind was Sebastien had-everything-it-took-to-win-a-world-medal-except-for-that-@#$%-3-axel Britten. I wonder if the judges would have rewarded Sebastien as richly back then under CoP as Jeff Buttle and Johnny Weir are being rewarded for their quadless-but-still-very-artistic-programs today.

Sure, they would have rewarded Britten but the 3-axel would have been bigger liability. Buttle and Weir, at least, have stable 3-axels. Two 3-axels (one in combo and one at the end of the program) would have put a good 15 - 20 points in a program via CoP (excuse the numbers, just guesses). That's a hole that Britten would have dug himself out of. And we have not even talked about adding the quad combo/single quad numbers into the equation - probably a good 20 points added onto the already deep hole.

In other words, :cry:

[lotusland]

Ivan W, I think you need to remember that Sebastien Brittan competed (Seniors) from about 1991 - 1997 ... he retired some 8 years ago. Yes, there were many with the 3Axel, the quad however was a rarity, and there were VERY FEW who had anything even approaching Sebastien's level of artistry. That being said, I do agree that under CoP Sebastien might well have done better on an international level than he did do (Worlds: 8th in '94, 17th in both '95 and '96). But, I still see CoP as still VERY JUMP focused and as a result, no matter how artistic, Sebastien would not have made the podium at Worlds etc.

Jeff, while his 3Axel is much improved under Raphael's instruction, the jump is not yet consistent, although it is solid enough for inclusion in his programs. He at least has a 50/50 chance, or better, of landing the Axel as he does of missing it. Unfortunatley with Sebastien, even though it was included in his program, he really had no chance of landing the jump. As to Jeff's quad toe loop? It is being worked on, but it is not ready to try in a program ... particularily when he is still has consistency problems with the axel. There are only so many deductions a skater wants to take.

[Artemis]

In pairs, I always think of Hough & Ladret in this kind of "what if" situations. For them, it was the lack of 2 axel that kept them off the world podium (that being the most difficult sbs jump done by pairs back then). Everything else they did was with such precision and skill, they had terrific artistry, and amazing chemistry and expression on the ice.

[snoopysnake]

Janet Lynn would have benefitted the most, no doubt.

Paul Wylie would have had more medals and probably a couple of US Titles.

Others who'd have done better:
Rudy Galindo
Brian Orser
Yuka Sato
The Duchesnays
Alexander Abt


Worse:
Surya Bonaly
Maria Butyrskaya
Tara Lipinski
Elvis Stojko
Todd Eldredge

[jcspkbfan]

In pairs, I always think of Hough & Ladret in this kind of "what if" situations. For them, it was the lack of 2 axel that kept them off the world podium (that being the most difficult sbs jump done by pairs back then). Everything else they did was with such precision and skill, they had terrific artistry, and amazing chemistry and expression on the ice.

Hough and Ladret were actually the second and third names which popped into my head after reading this topic heading. I don't remember them ever even attempting SBS 2-axels, but I remember Tuffy landed a perfect 3-toe while warming up for the 1991 Canadians long program.

I don't think Tuffy and Doug ever attempted SBS 3-toes in competition, either, but I wonder how it would have affected their career if they had been able to do that element consistently. True, not a lot of pairs were doing SBS triples back then--Kristi and Rudy, G&G and a couple of other Russian pairs are the only ones I can remember who did--but if Tuffy and Doug had been able to put themselves in that small group, who knows where they would have ended up. Maybe Doug never learned how to do the jump even though Tuffy could, I don't know.

ITA the quality of Tuffy and Doug's other elements--and definitely their choreography--was just as good as, if not better than, most of the other top pairs in the world at the time and CoP would have benefited them tremendously, but I still can't help but wonder how Tuffy and Doug would have fared under either judging system if they had been able to master SBS 3-toes to make up for their lack of 2-axels. IMO, that's the only reason why Tuffy and Doug were never able to acheive the same level of international success as Isabelle and Lloyd. :(

[alex4SA]

Janet Lynn would have benefitted the most, no doubt.

Paul Wylie would have had more medals and probably a couple of US Titles.

Others who'd have done better:
Rudy Galindo
Brian Orser
Yuka Sato
The Duchesnays
Alexander Abt


Worse:
Surya Bonaly
Maria Butyrskaya
Tara Lipinski
Elvis Stojko
Todd Eldredge

Couldn't agree more!!!!!

[vanillalatte]

Janet Lynn would have benefitted the most, no doubt.

Paul Wylie would have had more medals and probably a couple of US Titles.

Others who'd have done better:
Rudy Galindo
Brian Orser
Yuka Sato
The Duchesnays
Alexander Abt


Worse:
Surya Bonaly
Maria Butyrskaya
Tara Lipinski
Elvis Stojko
Todd Eldredge

I'm just curious. Can you please explain to me why Todd would have done worse under the CoP? I always thought his basic skating was very good and fairly difficult, but that darn quad kept him from placing higher internationally. I'm just wondering why you have him listed where you do.

Thank you. :D

[Sk8n Mama]

First, let me say that I love Elvis. He's a great person, role model and skater. That being said, I truly wonder if he would have been world champ under CoP. The skating skills and program would have killed him (those crossovers circling the entire rink into the Q-T combo).

One thing I did was to go back and watch my 02 Olys tape. I wonder if MK wouldn't have won without those factored placings. I think she still would have been down in the LP but how far ahead would she have been after the SP? She certainly would have been a fair bit ahead of Sarah Hughes.

I don't think Tuffy and Doug ever attempted SBS 3-toes in competition

I'm pretty sure Christine wasn't capable of either d axel or triples. I think d lutz was as difficult as it got.

[snoopysnake]

I probably should have thought to clarify that I was thinking more of Todd's earliest titles than the latter day performances. He is a skater whose artistry did not come (and yes, it certainly did eventually come) until he was older. If Paul Wylie had done better under COP, then someone conversely would have likley done worse and that would probably have been Todd. In the early 90's at Nationals Todd built up an early lead that was not overcome due to the scoring then in existence even though others outskated him in the long program.

Actually, Todd deserved to win Worlds in 1998, and may well have under the new system.

My other thoughts were, as you mentioned, the lack of a quad, and his tendency to land jumps that got very tilted in the air. He might have gotten less credit for such jumps under the new COP.

[icedancer2]

I went to a judges seminar recently about the COP which included videofootage of various skaters.

It was pointed out that Todd was one of the skaters that often basically stroked from element to element, without a lot of in-betweens, etc. But considering the times, this was enough to win titles and medals. The general thought was that if Todd was expected, even at that time, to turn in a COP-worthy program, he would have, and could have, done so.

Skaters who would have gotten extremely high component marks (for skating skills, etc.) were Janet Lynn and John Curry. Gary Beacom was another skater with exceptional skating skills who may have done well in the components aspect of the COP. For dancers, Torville and Dean were the epitome of skating skills.