Cohen Aiming for a Quad?

[NoVa Sk8r]

This monday, a Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14239-2005Jan16.html) titled "Meissner's Landing Leaves Chills" mentions that Cohen plans on working on the quad this summer. Hmmm.... Shades of 2001?

[ ... But Cohen, who put her hand down on a triple loop attempt and fell attempting a triple lutz, said she would nonetheless continue her work on a quadruple jump. Cohen has toyed with a quad jump for the last couple of years, but she's never tried it in competition.

"I've actually done it," she said. "I can do it. I think at this point in my skating, I feel really comfortable with my jumping. I think this summer might be a good chance to start working on it again. I've definitely not given up on it."]

[danibellerika]

I used to be a big advocate of her going for it, but I :giveup: . She needs to get the rest of her jumps solid as a rock first, then we'll talk. They didn't look solid at Nats like they did at Marshall's last year after worlds or at COI.

She says that every year btw. I don't believe anything sasha says anymore. I just believe what I see from her. Too many roller coaster rides with this girl I swear.

[NoVa Sk8r]

But she first started working on it under the tutelage of Mr. Nicks, right?
Mr. Nicks should go back on his deep-sea fishing expedition/vacation. Though working with Sasha and the quad might be sort of another deep-sea outing as well, huh? ;)

As someone mentioned, talk at Nationals was over the Kween's 9th and Kimmie's jump feat. What better way for Sasha to steal some thunder than by announcing a trumping of the 3 axel in announcing a quad.

No rest for the weary this summer. :??

[danibellerika]

Sasha is definately an adventure I bet.

I don't think she stole any thunder. She's mentioned it so much that you just pass over it since it hasn't been materializing (wish it would though because the jump was pretty huge when she did it, much larger than the jumps she's been doing lately). Kimmie's 3 axel and Michelle's 9 titles are things that exist, unlike Sasha's quad at the moment. Still love her though.

[LoopLoop]

Sasha seems to have forgotten that she DID attempt it in competition at least once; it might have been two or three times. I remember her trying it at Skate America and popping it to (I think) a single.

[fadedstardust]

I think it would behoove Ms. Cohen to figure out how to land her triples and triple/double combinations in competition before aiming for an extra rotation. I'm glad she feels comfortamble in her jumping, but I don't think constantly wiping the Nationals ice rinks for the past 5 years with her butt sounds all that comfortable to me. I don't blame her for falling, hey, this is a hard sport, but I think that she is totally missing the mark by just going on like it wasn't gonna happen again unless she fundamentally changes SOMETHING about the way she approaches competition. She could land a quint for all anyone cares, if she can't even land triples in competition, it's not gonna matter.

[mskater]

Well she can do all the triples; why not work on the quad as well as her mental toughness?

[loveskating]

Why would anyone train the quad unless they need it? IMHO all she is saying is that if she needs it, she will train it, and everyone knows she has it, because we've all seen film of her landing it in practice.

Sasha's jump technique is just fine except for the slight flutz, better than most in some respects. Great jump technique does not necessarily lead to great consistency, as Ilia Kulik showed.

Sasha's consistency is better than she is given credit for, in any case...it was good enough to give her gold two seasons running in the GP Series, a Worlds Silver Medal, and she was injured this season...yet despite everything she has been through, she got a silver at this Nationals, and deserved it.

I'm not unhappy as a fan of hers, not at all.

P.S. She did try a 4 sal at Skate America in the past and popped it.

[shadymc]

I'm in agreement with most here that this would be a bad idea. When Sasha was attempting the quad, she had some of her worst performances. She would routinely fall several times in a performance. When she removed it, she skated better. When she stopped attempting a 3/3, she skated even better than that. I still contend Sasha might have won gold in SLC if she attempted a 3/2 instead of the 3/3 that she never landed before. The fact that the judges placed Sasha ahead of Sarah in the short proves that to me.

Being able to do a quad on the practice ice is not the same as being able to do it in a runthrough, let alone a competition. Many people saw Michelle Kwan land 3 beautiful 3 lutz/3 loops in succession in '01, but when she attempted it at Skate Canada, she wasn't even close. Lots of skaters do all kind of difficult things in practice, but can't come near doing them in competition.

And now, Sasha is just coming off reinjuring her back. This makes no sense. How can she skate clean doing a quad if she has so much trouble without one. Her program at nationals was stripped and she still had trouble. She is now going to have to do a more complex, COP friendly program for worlds. Remember, COP is more difficult this year than last. This is going to be hard enough, without having the quad to think about. Even when she landed the 3/3 in '03, the effort that it took to land it took the wind out of her for the rest of the program and she self-destructed. If Sasha skates beyond Turino, which it's looking like she may do, that would be the time to play around with the quad. She'd be crazy to mess with it now, going into the Olympic year. She has way too much on her plate already.

By the way, I think Sasha is a smart girl and she knows this. I think she was just giving a PR answer. If she said she was giving up on it, the press would be even more all over her than they are now.

[md2be]

I'd like to point out that a majority of skaters fall at least once per competition (much less simply bobble) so I think talking about Sasha's falls as if there is something specific wrong with her is a bit misguided. The problem isn't her falls, that is what makes her normal, the problem is the lack of consistency that would make her special in this way (adding to the other ways.) This may be largely semantic, but I think it is an important distinction all the same.

That said, while I used to think consistency would be more important than a quad, I'm not convinced she'd be placed above Michelle simply being consistent, I think the cards are stacked too much in favor of Michelle for simple consistency to suffice, so I think a quad or 3/3 or 3a to make a skater stand out could be necessary.

Your post is a contradiction and again shows your bias. Im not trying to start a fight here...listen:

Paragraph 1 you state that everyone falls in a competition. But, Michelle doesnt...hasnt recently (barring Olys).
Paragraph 2 you state that Michelle is held up (not in so many words) and that even if Sasha didnt fall, she couldnt beat Michelle.

Well..this has yet to happen, so how do you know? How can you presume this? perhaps it is Michelle's lack of falls and consistency that has held her up and not her reputation.

[dbny]

If Michelle and Sasha were both to skate flawless programs with the same number of jumps and jumps of the same difficulty, I believe that in the US with US judges, Michelle would win, but in international competition, Sasha would win. We saw the US judges' and the US media's bias for Michelle when she competed against Tara in Nationals before Nagano. Although Tara could not have won, going into the FS in 4th, she still should have beaten Michelle in the FS, as she rightfully did at Nagano. JMO.

[shadymc]

If Michelle and Sasha were both to skate flawless programs with the same number of jumps and jumps of the same difficulty, I believe that in the US with US judges, Michelle would win, but in international competition, Sasha would win. We saw the US judges' and the US media's bias for Michelle when she competed against Tara in Nationals before Nagano. Although Tara could not have won, going into the FS in 4th, she still should have beaten Michelle in the FS, as she rightfully did at Nagano. JMO.

The first part of this about Sasha is not true. Remember Worlds '03. Except for a small bobble on the footwork a basically clean Sasha was behind a flawed Michelle and Elena Sokolova in the qualifying round. There were international judges there.

As for Tara, the only thing she had on Michelle was the jump combos and better speed. She had to double and triple pump to just stroke. Her spirals had to be hand assisted and she did not have Michelle's line or posture. Her jumps were hard, but she got almost no height and had poor technique. She just powered her way through the jumps. Unfortunately, this is what caused her injuries. There is no way her free program should have beaten Michelle's outstanding performance. The Olympics were another story. Tara was outstanding and Michelle was flat and had a minor jump error.

[danibellerika]

Sasha had that bobble but I think that a couple jumps weren't the most solid there. I think the only clear indication was Sasha's SP at last year's worlds. Michelle got deducted, but even w/o it, she would have still been second to Sasha.

We're under a new system now though an have yet to see how they stack up against each other there. Even with Sasha's mistakes, we'll have a bigger "what if" to look at because we can add points that she lost for her mistakes this time.

[mskater]

Paragraph 1 you state that everyone falls in a competition. But, Michelle doesnt...hasnt recently (barring Olys).


Perhaps this is because she takes jumps out that she might fall on; for example the loop in her freeskate at Nationals?? One could argue she might have fallen on the second attempt at a 3-lutz that she doubled that night as well...

[NoVa Sk8r]

One could argue she might have fallen on the second attempt at a 3-lutz that she doubled that night as well...This implies that she purposefully doubled the lutz, i.e. she went into the jump with the double in mind. I think her body just didn't feel it and so (subconsciously) popped the triple into a double. At any rate, a doubled lutz and a lacking 3-loop ( :evil: bad Kween, bad!)) was enough to win the darn gold medal. I think it was gutsy, if not misguided to leave out the triple loop.

But woe is afoot at Worlds under CoP. :cry:

[NoVa Sk8r]

Well she can do all the triples; why not work on the quad as well as her mental toughness?Yes, she can do all her triples, but she has yet, as far as I can tell, to put together back-to-back clean programs in a competition. I wish she'd work on that.
And didn't Robin say in the snarkfest piece that Sasha just wasn't training as hard as she should? Perhaps the "Nicks Fix" will work this time?

That said, I'm kind of excited at the thought of a U.S. lady landing/working on a quad. We've got the triple axel, now let's answer the Japanese and get a Quad Queen! I know it's a pipe dream, but it's exciting nonetheless. But ouch, I'm just thinking of the possible injuries that Cohen may possibly suffer this season. No comment on the schadenfreude, though ... ;)

[fadedstardust]

It's not just a "slight" flutz, it's also her flip that has problems. That's two out of 6 jumps- and she should fix them. Meanwhile I think that a clean Cohen would definitely win over a clean Kwan even in the U.S., considering how overmarked she was on her technical merit in both the short and long program. In the long program alone- she put her hand down once, and fell once, and she still received about the same technical marks as Michelle Kwan, who admittely doubled a triple lutz, but that's still only ONE jump, whereas Sasha got no credit for one jump (fall) and botched another. It's weird how they end up with similar technical marks. As I always state, I like Sasha, she's my favorite to watch, but to say American judges have had an urge to crown her National Champion for about 3 years now is not over-stating it. When Sasha stands up on all her jumps, she'll be champion of everything, flutz, lip and all. I have no doubt about it. And that's good, because it shows that artistry and creativity (I know many of you don't like her spin variations, but she still comes up with different positions than her competitors, who end up copying her ie: the I-spin, the leaning sit spin, and now the bent leg scratch which I'm sure will find some imitators by next year, plus she was one of the first ladies of late to do the change of edge spins) is still just as important as good jumps. It doesn't mean she has great jump technique, but she has the whole package, which will be more important, should she stop falling. Though since she seems to blame Nicks for her falls at Nationals (she hasn't gotten back to Nicks about whether she'll keep him around for Worlds...) and now she wants to waste time working on the quad....I don't foresee we'll see her standing up for a while yet.

[danibellerika]

http://www.sashacohen.com/journal.shtml

In her new journal she SOUNDS like she may not go anywhere quite yet, but you never know till she's got a new journal entry and article.

[prunes89]

I read on FSU that Michelle Kwan actually did that spin (that Sasha did in her SP) a few seasons ago. I wonder if Sasha remembered this when she did it? Remember, Sasha did the charlotte after Michelle...a little bit of "hey, I can do it better" :-)
I think Sasha is awesome and will do that quad just in time for the Olympics. She sees that some of the judges liked Kimmie's skate better. I think it might MOTIVATE Sasha that Kimmie went out there and hit that 3axel on her first attempt in a senior competition. Sasha is probably in awe of Kimmie and wants to follow in her footsteps.
Sasha WILL land that quad and she WILL be World Champion and she WILL win everything in site next year and she WILL BE OLYMPIC CHAMPION. :bow:

[fadedstardust]

Didn't you say she'd win Nationals too, prunes? Speaking of, you might wanna change your sig, because she's not the 2005 National champion. Sasha has a tremendous amount of talent, and still has a ton of potential- but so did the skater that most reminds me of her, Nicole Bobek- and Nicole was never an Olympic champion. Sometimes it just isn't meant to be, and even if it is, it probably won't be this year, so instead of every single year rehashing the same blind (cute, but blind...) and uneducated banter that Sasha WILL win EVERYTHING, perhaps you should just hope that she does, and show your support as a fan. The way you say it, like you KNOW she will (even though every time you've known she would- she didn't) makes it seem really obnoxious, and that's part of how Sasha fans got a bad name in the first place. Claiming she'd win this or that or that it'd finally be her year, and then it wasn't. Just hope she'll win, and continue enjoying her skating if she doesn't. Second place is not that bad, after all. Sure we all as skaters aim for Gold everything, but she made the World team, many people would love that opportunity. But the way you said she would be National champion, and now she's not- sort of belittles her achievement, and it's a great one. You don't need to be a champion to be a great skater, please remember that and please stop constantly saying Sasha will win, because it's really annoying to read it constantly- from the same person. We will all know she's won when she does, in the meantime, you're just in the dark about when it will be as we are.

[LittleBitSk8er]

Sasha WILL land that quad and she WILL be World Champion and she WILL win everything in site next year and she WILL BE OLYMPIC CHAMPION. :bow:

I do not think that Kwan has what it takes to win at the Olympics. Many people think Tara and Sarah have robbed her of her gold. Now I do think she should have won over Tara, but definitely not Sarah. I think that if by chance Kimmie makes it to the Olympics than there is a hugh change that she will win. That just seams to be the trend of late... Although my first bet would be on Sasha. If I was a betting type of gal.;)

[prunes89]

Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with me having confidence in Sasha that she IS going to win Worlds and The Olympics. In my mind, she DID win Nationals for herself. She did what noboby thought she could. She got silver. Many predicted she would fall 3 times, but she only fell once. She DID win over her inner demons. She is progressing. And she WILL win Worlds and Olympics. So there! :evil:

[fadedstardust]

prunes- I don't think there's anything wrong with you supporting Sasha, I like her skating and I think supporting her is great. Being kinda unrealistic about her immediate future isn't helpful though, it's only harmful to her because you will only end up being disappointed. You have to be realistic about what you are looking at. Sasha is not progressing, she is stagnating. What you said about her "winning in your mind" and "getting the silver" would be true if she had failed to medal at Nationals before, but....she got the Silver last year, too. So she is actually in the EXACT same position as she is last year. Actually no, she's in a worst position than she is last year, because before her Silver medal at Nationals last year, she had won some Grand Prix events with great programs. She faltered in the Final, but she had had some great performances and had already won some international titles last season before Nationals. This year, a back injury and coach problems kept her from doing any international comps at all. So she's got the Nationals silver, but no international titles, and a back injury looming not too far in the past. Yeah, definitely worst off than last year. Though still not BAD off at all, just worst. In other words...progress? What? Where? What does she have this year that she didn't have last year? Aside for a tan, maybe.

[PaulWyliefan]

I don't believe anything sasha says anymore.

I don't think I'd go THAT far. When has she ever said, "I'm definitely going to do the quad in competition and land it"? "This summer might be a good chance to start working on it again" is just a statement about what she'd like to do, not a promise that she's going to do it.

[Schmeck]

Sarah Hughes also did a spin that turned to an inside edge, before Sasha did, I believe.


If Sasha is planning on working on a quad, I really think she'll try one next year, but will be risking injury as well. If she's in a place to win/medal at US Nationals, the Olympics, or Worlds, would she be willing to risk it? Perhaps she'll try it at a GP event.

[danibellerika]

I don't think I'd go THAT far. When has she ever said, "I'm definitely going to do the quad in competition and land it"? "This summer might be a good chance to start working on it again" is just a statement about what she'd like to do, not a promise that she's going to do it.

I mean it in terms of her saying one thing, but something completely different is going on, like with the recent coach change. Her journals had been all positive saying how much she loved being in New York, but then later we get a new journal saying she was homesick and that's why she left. All I'm saying is I can't take her word for much anymore because she doesn't inform us on what is REALLY going on (and no, she doesn't have to tell us her business). I just go by what I see from her instead is all I'm saying because we won't be getting the real deal from her.

She's put the quad off for too long. I think it would be smarter for Sasha to go for a 3/3 and try it at every competition she enters next season so that she has it reliable come olys. She finally did one in 2003 with her 3lutz/3toe at worlds (right in front of me at that 8-) ) because she'd been practicing it all season.

[loveskating]

...Sasha is not progressing, she is stagnating. What you said about her "winning in your mind" and "getting the silver" would be true if she had failed to medal at Nationals before, but....she got the Silver last year, too. So she is actually in the EXACT same position as she is last year. Actually no, she's in a worst position than she is last year, because before her Silver medal at Nationals last year, she had won some Grand Prix events with great programs...

I wouldn't think so. There is nothng so unnegotiable as a straight line. In the real world, not the world of corporate hype, or fantastical delusion, or "annointed" winners from the top down, things never develop like that, instead, they always go forward in a spiral like or "two steps up, one step back" type of manner. She had several months off the ice with a serious injury, and it shows is all.

I don't think Sasha has physically peaked...my goodnesss, she is still growing, for that matter (looked to me like about 1+ inch). If she had, your claim she is stagnant might make sense.

P.S. I want to see that 3/3 loop Kwan was working on in 1998 in real competition, now! For that matter, I'd like to see that 3 axel she was working on the following year, about which her fans constantly harped and claimed that Frank wouldn't let her do it because she wasn't 80% consistent on it.

IF Sasha has hyped a jump, then she is certainly not the first to do so, so get off her back.

[loveskating]

I'd like to point out that a majority of skaters fall at least once per competition (much less simply bobble) so I think talking about Sasha's falls as if there is something specific wrong with her is a bit misguided. The problem isn't her falls, that is what makes her normal, the problem is the lack of consistency that would make her special in this way (adding to the other ways.) This may be largely semantic, but I think it is an important distinction all the same.

That said, while I used to think consistency would be more important than a quad, I'm not convinced she'd be placed above Michelle simply being consistent, I think the cards are stacked too much in favor of Michelle for simple consistency to suffice, so I think a quad or 3/3 or 3a to make a skater stand out could be necessary.

I so agree...its a special criteria, ONLY for Sasha Cohen...consider that at Nationals, Kwan doubled her lutz and did not even attempt a loop, or that Johnney Wier doubled a jump...they did not have to skate clean, but Sasha did and does, every time she steps onto the ice.

There is no record I know of kept of "clean skates" by the ISU, nor has anyone ever been particularly interested in that before.

Actually, those LPs were very close, since Kwan omitted a standard triple, and since she did not skate with the flavor of the music, her spins are MUCH inferior to Sasha's both as to quality and variation, innovation and the spirals are at least equal (better, IMHO, but for purposes of argument, equal).

Not only did we not get a fair analysis of the LPs from Dick and Peggy, instead, we got this "clean skate" bullocks.

Its just another invention in a very long line of obscene, totally unfair inventions as "criticisms" of Sasha.

[Kemy]

Its just another invention in a very long line of obscene, totally unfair inventions as "criticisms" of Sasha.
I think a lot of people see Sasha falling as failing to reach her full potential. Johnny and Michelle have skated clean before and, to most, have reached their potential and delivered in the big competitions. Skating a perfect program and winning is no longer the something that has not been obtained in their careers.

Those same people see the mistakes as the only thing that stands between Sasha and the gold medal at the big events. Many have won doing less than what Sasha does, but she should be able to win even if others are perfect, right? Skating a program where she'd have to wait to see if others will mess up in order to claim the win isn't living up to her potential. It's usually better to skate clean and close the door on others, rather than have a mistake or two open the door for others to skate through.

[Schmeck]

I don't think Sasha has physically peaked...my goodnesss, she is still growing, for that matter (looked to me like about 1+ inch).


Uh, the woman is twenty years old. If she's still growing over an inch a year, she's either on some kind of growth drug, or her body is way messed up. :roll:

[likes2skate]

You can only hype something for so long. Sasha was crowned Michelle's successor 5 years ago and it is 5 years later and she is still the silver medalest at Nationals.

I think the worst thing for Sasha was all the hype she received in the press when she first became noticed in 2000.

BTW Michelle has seen her fair share of bad press. Wasn't there a picture of her on some newspaper with the caption "Loser" after she won silver at worlds? There was also another article about her after the Olympics that referred to her as an evil step sister and Sarah H as Cinderella.

The bad press has nothing to do with Sasha personally, the press just likes to kick you when you are down. If Sasha had won Nationals, there would be all these articles about how Michelle shoudl just retire.

[doubletoe]

My coach always says, "Your hardest jump is always your least consistent, so if you want a jump to be more consistent, start landing one that's harder!" Since Sasha skates perfectly clean programs in practice all the time, it's clear that her issues are psychological. Working on the quad could help her land the triple lutz more consistently in competition. I think it's great that she's working on it.

[Schmeck]

Well, if she were to work on a quad (f)lutz, maybe she could clean up her triple (f)lutz, but is that the jump she always falls on? I thought she plopped on the triple toe most often - but there isn't a great statistical site on Sasha, so I'd have to go back and watch my tapes to be sure. Anyone else out there know for sure?

[loveskating]

You can only hype something for so long. Sasha was crowned Michelle's successor 5 years ago and it is 5 years later and she is still the silver medalest at Nationals..

Oh, that is rich...another one of those "have it both ways" thingies being invented by the minute...Michelle, you claim, is still the best and has no successor...yet you blast any claim that Sasha was Michelle's successor in 2000 as "hype"? Who imagined at that time that Michelle Kwan would stay in after 2002! Hardly anyone!

This is like the Kwaniacs denegrating all the GP Series Gold Sasha has won because Kwan was not there. How very convenient, disingenuous and MEAN SPIRITED of you! Want to speculate some more? Here it is: If Kwan, had retired, Sasha would clearly have at least 2 National titles and she WOULD be Michelle's successor!

Instead, the Kwan Lovefest continues, as Kwan's skating becomes more and more obviously in decline and substandard except for staying on her feet.

I think the worst thing for Sasha was all the hype she received in the press when she first became noticed in 2000...

What hype? You Kwaniacs saw it as hype, and attacked every single part of her skating...including calling the Sasha Skid a "glorified hockey stop"! No one else saw it as hype...just as accurately pointing out that Sasha was a very great skater who could fill Kwan's shoes once she was finished! What is wrong with that?

Sasha has had more negative press, starting with the so-called "bumping incident" at 2002 Nationals, than any skater of her quality and ranking I can recall, and over a long period of time. I just read an article which makes fun of her as to changing coaches, yet Kwan has changed coaches more than Sasha...its open season on Sasha in the media these days, even when the facts are totally at variance with what is being said.

Sorry, but "hype" is by definition LIEING, like claiming that Sasha flutzes, but failing to mention that Kwan flutzes just as much.

BTW Michelle has seen her fair share of bad press. Wasn't there a picture of her on some newspaper with the caption "Loser" after she won silver at worlds? There was also another article about her after the Olympics that referred to her as an evil step sister and Sarah H as Cinderella..

You can probably cite 3 or 4 moments of bad press for Kwan after Nagano...but you neglect to mention the overwhelming positive press, including when she LOST, and all the press and commentary that insulted and bashed her competitors, as well. Sasha has never had any of that. Furthermore, when Sasha loses, its claimed that it is becasue of some vast generalization peculiar only to Sasha COhen, like "focus", whereas when Kwan loses, its claimed its becasue (1) she should have won or (2) she had a boot problem or some other exuse!

The bad press has nothing to do with Sasha personally, the press just likes to kick you when you are down. If Sasha had won Nationals, there would be all these articles about how Michelle shoudl just retire.

That is speculative, but I doubt it...since Kwan got positive press for NOT attending Skate America (and right after Sasha decisively beat her at Campbells) several years ago...with Hersch claiming that since she was not going to be there, no one should attend (Sasha and Belbin and Agosto, among others, were to be there) which was a straight up blast on all the ohter skaters. If you look at the press and commentaray Kwan has had overall, the best bet is that Brennan, for instance, would have written, "On any other day, Sasha Cohen could not beat Michelle Kwan" which is precisely what Brennan wrote about Tara Lipinski at Nagano.


This is also another instance of you all having it both ways...on one hand, you cliam that as long as Kwan is in, she has "earned" some right to top billing and to have everything from her point of view (not to mention how she loves to compete but only 3 times a year)...yet you turn around and claim that she has as much negative press as Sasha or similar quality of press!! How could that be possible? There is no way to reconcile your claim of entitlement for Kwan, and yet claim an honest, clear, factual press for skating, about Sasha or anyone else! Bulloks! If Kwan is "entitled" then every other skater has to suffer for her entitlements!


For instance, those LPs at Nationals were very, very close...it could have gone either way, but that is not what Dick and Peggy said, instead they said that Sasha did not skate clean once again and Peggy goes on about how Kwan does not let an audience down...what a load of vacuous bulloks! I was in the audience and I thought Kwans' program a travesty to HERSELF!

[Schmeck]

loveskating, does your daughter still 'get giddy' when Sasha skates? That's a cute signature!

I don't think the free skate programs of Cohen and Kwan were all that close at all, and neither did all 9 judges, as Cohen got 7 2nd place and 2 3rd place ordinals. She also averaged almost .3 points below Kwan. I think that's either saying:

1) we're leaving places for other skaters (depends on skate order)
2) some part of the program didn't work
3) it wasn't the best skate

Since Kwan skated last, it couldn't have been #1. So, did the program not work for the judges, or did the judges think Cohen's skating wasn't even close to Kwan's?

[7302005]

The statements included in this post are my personal thoughts and I do not wish to fight with anyone. I simply want to state what I think:

I feel that she must first want to work at skating consistancy and the pyschology issues that seem to plague her during some competitions. There must be a reason she has gone through coaches. I do not watch her at any practices, or know her, etc. Just my thoughts.

The quad is NOT worth another injury. What will her body be able to endure?

Growing - she is 20....and most women have past their growing phases at this time.

If Sasha became consistent, used more of the ice, less drama, give up the ugly pull the leg straight up and into her face spin and Dick/Peggy would get off the isn't she wonderful - so talented and no one does a spiral like Sasha etc. phrases, I could enjoy her skating, (ok - Dick/Peggy phrases are not within her ability to control) but as it is.... for me, her skating leaves something to be desired.

You don't have to agree or disagree - I just wanted to post my thoughts

[loveskating]

loveskating, does your daughter still 'get giddy' when Sasha skates? That's a cute signature!

I don't think the free skate programs of Cohen and Kwan were all that close at all, and neither did all 9 judges, as Cohen got 7 2nd place and 2 3rd place ordinals. She also averaged almost .3 points below Kwan. I think that's either saying:

1) we're leaving places for other skaters (depends on skate order)
2) some part of the program didn't work
3) it wasn't the best skate

Since Kwan skated last, it couldn't have been #1. So, did the program not work for the judges, or did the judges think Cohen's skating wasn't even close to Kwan's?


Kwan omitted her loop entirely and doubled her lutz. Her spins were slower and less varied and innovative; her spiral sequence and Sasha's are at least the same, although I think under COP Sasha's will get higher on component marks because they are more innovative and varied; Sasha's footwork was considerably better and overall, Kwan's skate had little flavor of the music, while Cohen's had a lot of the flavor of the music, especially in the footwork section.

I might have given it to Kwan becasue she had a double lutz on Sasha, and the lutz has higher base value...plus Sasha had her hand down on the loop, which Kwan entirely omitted -- I can see that if that is what I wanted to do, I could come up with a reason under the 6.0. to give it to Kwan....but I insist based on the actual skating that the marks should have been very close, becasue in actuality, the skating was close that very particular night.

Yes, Sasha is my daughter's fave. She has interesting metaphors...says that watching Kulik is like watching a beautiful yet powerful ocean wave...that watching Sasha skate makes her feel light headed, joyful. When she sees Belbin and Agosto, she feels compelled to get up and dance, LOL!

[loveskating]

... [part of post omitted] Growing - she is 20....and most women have past their growing phases at this time.

Sasha is still growing. Women are wildly different as to when they physically peak, whereas with men, it us usually around age 21.

If Sasha became consistent, used more of the ice, less drama, give up the ugly pull the leg straight up and into her face spin and Dick/Peggy would get off the isn't she wonderful - so talented and no one does a spiral like Sasha etc. phrases, I could enjoy her skating, (ok - Dick/Peggy phrases are not within her ability to control) but as it is.... for me, her skating leaves something to be desired.

So you basically think that Sasha does not even deserve the little positive commentary she gets from Dick and Peggy as to talent on elements? You don't like her outside edge spiral? You think her Sasha I Spin is "ugly"? You think she is too dramatic. In short, you think she is praised so much that you cannot even enjoy her skating???

Sasha has been consistent enough to win a Worlds silver, to beat everyone, including Irina and Kwan; she has been consistent enough to be ranked the #1 skater in the world and to have the highest marks of anyone under the COP; she has been consistent enough to win the majority of GP Series competitions since 2002/2003 including the GP Finals and all at or about the highest level of difficulty until this season, when she was out with a serious injury.

Even from the medals and competitive aspect, Sasha has accomplished much more than anyone else from the US in the past few years! But you think she is not deserving of any praise at all, even about her OE spiral? Hmmm.

Of course, if you want to talk about someone who has splatted in both the SP and LP for the past several years, we could do that. I don't like to mention it, however, as I like this skater very much and I don't like rubbing salt in her wounds.

So who do you like, anyone? Who "deserves" positive commentary even if its just on an element or two? I know I do, and most of us, praise a lot of skaters for some aspect of their skating..for instance, the thing I love about Jenny Kirk is her presence on the ice...she is just usually all there, like Belbin and Agosto...so her tech stuff needs a lot of improvement, I still love to see her skate is all.

Of course, these are just my thoughts...you don't have to respond.

[iskatealot]

Well I think it would be really neat to see a non japanese woman do a quad but frankly I dont think Sasha will be the one to do it first. I mean her preformance at US nationals wasnt spectacular because her jumps seemed off. Just in my opnion I would guess that if any american woman was to land a quad soon it would most likely be Kimmie Meisner.....I mean she atleast has a triple axel.......to my knoledge Sasha doesnt ....but I may be wrong there. Just my opinion.......now if a canadian woman were 2 land a quad that would be amazing..........

[Hydroblade]

Well I don't think it's a bad thing to work on a quad outside of competition. As long as she skates good in competition without it, then it's fine with me. Also it will make her other triples easier getting better at the quad.

now if a canadian woman were 2 land a quad that would be amazing..........

Well with how Mira Leung skate at nationals I would be surprised if she has one next year.

[likes2skate]

Oh, that is rich...another one of those "have it both ways" thingies being invented by the minute...Michelle, you claim, is still the best and has no successor...yet you blast any claim that Sasha was Michelle's successor in 2000 as "hype"? Who imagined at that time that Michelle Kwan would stay in after 2002! Hardly anyone!

This is like the Kwaniacs denegrating all the GP Series Gold Sasha has won because Kwan was not there. How very convenient, disingenuous and MEAN SPIRITED of you! Want to speculate some more? Here it is: If Kwan, had retired, Sasha would clearly have at least 2 National titles and she WOULD be Michelle's successor!

Instead, the Kwan Lovefest continues, as Kwan's skating becomes more and more obviously in decline and substandard except for staying on her feet.



What hype? "! No one else saw it as hype...just as accurately pointing out that Sasha was a very great skater who could fill Kwan's shoes once she was finished! What is wrong with that?

Sasha has had more negative press, starting with the so-called "bumping incident" at 2002 Nationals, than any skater of her quality and ranking I can recall, and over a long period of time. I just read an article which makes fun of her as to changing coaches, yet Kwan has changed coaches more than Sasha...its open season on Sasha in the media these days, even when the facts are totally at variance with what is being said.

Sorry, but "hype" is by definition LIEING, like claiming that Sasha flutzes, but failing to mention that Kwan flutzes just as much.



You can probably cite 3 or 4 moments of bad press for Kwan after Nagano...but you neglect to mention the overwhelming positive press, including when she LOST, and all the press and commentary that insulted and bashed her competitors, as well. Sasha has never had any of that. Furthermore, when Sasha loses, its claimed that it is becasue of some vast generalization peculiar only to Sasha COhen, like "focus", whereas when Kwan loses, its claimed its becasue (1) she should have won or (2) she had a boot problem or some other exuse!



That is speculative, but I doubt it...since Kwan got positive press for NOT attending Skate America (and right after Sasha decisively beat her at Campbells) several years ago...with Hersch claiming that since she was not going to be there, no one should attend (Sasha and Belbin and Agosto, among others, were to be there) which was a straight up blast on all the ohter skaters. If you look at the press and commentaray Kwan has had overall, the best bet is that Brennan, for instance, would have written, "On any other day, Sasha Cohen could not beat Michelle Kwan" which is precisely what Brennan wrote about Tara Lipinski at Nagano.


This is also another instance of you all having it both ways...on one hand, you cliam that as long as Kwan is in, she has "earned" some right to top billing and to have everything from her point of view (not to mention how she loves to compete but only 3 times a year)...yet you turn around and claim that she has as much negative press as Sasha or similar quality of press!! How could that be possible? There is no way to reconcile your claim of entitlement for Kwan, and yet claim an honest, clear, factual press for skating, about Sasha or anyone else! Bulloks! If Kwan is "entitled" then every other skater has to suffer for her entitlements!


For instance, those LPs at Nationals were very, very close...it could have gone either way, but that is not what Dick and Peggy said, instead they said that Sasha did not skate clean once again and Peggy goes on about how Kwan does not let an audience down...what a load of vacuous bulloks! I was in the audience and I thought Kwans' program a travesty to HERSELF!



First of all....HU? Where did I say Kwan earned or is intitled to anything that other skaters are not? What are you talking about? What do you mean "have it both ways"? Where did I say anything about a glorified hockey stop? I like Sasha's spins and spirals and I think she is an overall better skater than Michelle Kwan so stop assuming you know my opinions on Sasha Cohen.

You are reading what you want to read, and not what is there. Sasha Cohen has been hyped for 5 years, that is a fact and it does not mean I dislike her and it does not mean I thought her GP wins were not meaningful.

Kwan was all hype during the 2002 Olympics.

Dominuque Mouceanu was hyped during the 1996 Olympics

The Philadlphia Eagles have been hyped to go the Super Bowl since 2003.

Also, I did not mention Sasha's or Michelle's flutz so what are you talking about when you said I said Sasha flutzed but I did not mention Michelle????

Your posts are so funny, they make no sense!

BTW wern't you the person who suggested Michelle Kwan hired the streaker at 2004 as a publicity stunt????

Talk about trying to bring someone down!

BTW I looked up the defination of hype: blatant or sensational promotion

I stick by what I said, and I still do not think it was an insult to Sasha. It is not her fault the press hyped her to be the first woman to land a quad, and crowned her the 2003 national champ before the competition started.

My point is when the press hypes you up and you do not deliver, they like to bring you down. That is exactly what happened to Sasha. But you can continue to accuse me of thinking things I did not write, or have ever written, such as:

"You Kwaniacs saw it as hype, and attacked every single part of her skating...including calling the Sasha Skid a "glorified hockey stop"
I didn't say that

"This is also another instance of you all having it both ways...on one hand, you cliam that as long as Kwan is in, she has "earned" some right to top billing and to have everything from her point of view"
I didn't say that

like claiming that Sasha flutzes, but failing to mention that Kwan flutzes just as much.
I didn't say that.

If you are going to respond to my post, can you respond to what I have written and not what you assume are my opinions just because I did not say Sasha Cohen is the greatest ever?

[Schmeck]

Having checked multiple growth charts, I have seen that girls tend to slowly stop growing around age 14, and the charts tend to flatten out around age 18. So, if Sasha is still growing at 20, then she is an anomoly. That doesn't mean that she hasn't physically peaked yet, just that she shouldn't be getting 1+" taller a year.

[kisscid]

Post deleted
never mind...others have pointed out the same thing..
Cid

[danibellerika]

I don't see sasha getting any taller vertically, but horizontally, when she stops skating, I see her growing quite a bit. Over the summer she looked as if she was filling out and was even getting hips, but by the time marshall's and nats hit, she was back to same old same old. Lots of atheletes get a more womanly figure when they stop training, particularly gymnasts (Dominiqe Moceanu, Shannon Miller, Andrea Radican to name a few).

[fadedstardust]

If at 20, Sasha is "growing horizontally, but only during the off-season", it doesn't mean she's still growing, it doesn't mean she's getting more womanly, it means she, like most other elite skaters, has gained weight during the off-season when training isn't as strenuous and diet isn't as strict. That's a funny way to put it though. I did grow horizontally a little bit over xmas. I guess that means that at 19, I am also still growing. ;)

[7302005]

Oh - that's a good one faded....I guess I did too at 40+. I am sure the endocrinologist would love that one! It might even be published in a medical journal ;)

[danibellerika]

If at 20, Sasha is "growing horizontally, but only during the off-season", it doesn't mean she's still growing, it doesn't mean she's getting more womanly, it means she, like most other elite skaters, has gained weight during the off-season when training isn't as strenuous and diet isn't as strict. That's a funny way to put it though. I did grow horizontally a little bit over xmas. I guess that means that at 19, I am also still growing. ;)

When I said growing horizontally, I meant it as putting on some pounds which of course we all do regardless of age;) . I'm just saying that Sasha's so thin that any weight she gains goes to the right places which in turn makes her look a little more mature from the neck down, which is why I called it getting a more womanly figure (over a girlish one).

[fadedstardust]

Oh, yeah I know what you meant Danibellerika, I was just joking. :) People don't grow when they are 20 years old. Sure there's exceptions to every rule, but people usually don't, so I was just making a joke about it since it was brought up by someone else that Sasha was still growing (vertically ;) ). Sorry the joke was on your account.

[danibellerika]

Oooohok. Gotcha ;) Don't men still grow though until they are like 22 or something?

[fadedstardust]

Men are odd creatures. I wouldn't be surprised to know they grow until they are 55 years old. ;)

[NCSkater02]

Men are odd creatures. I wouldn't be surprised to know they grow until they are 55 years old. ;)

But, do they ever grow up?

[NYC]

I could see Cohen turning a quad.......anyday. She's so tiny.

[fadedstardust]

I could see Cohen turning a quad.......anyday. She's so tiny.

If only all you had to do to have consistent quads was to be skinny. Then I would have a quad lutz. Heck, quad toe/quad toe combination!!! Hah. Stature really doesn't have as much to do with jumping as people think it does. It's about technique, if your triple is screwed up, you're not gonna get a quad.

[iskatealot]

and you have 2 admit that Sasha wasnt looking to consistent at nationals.....

[duane]

As much as I adore Sasha, I'm truly starting to believe that she is the Nicole Bobek of figure skating--a skater with amazing talent, who goes from coach to coach, who hardly ever lands clean back-to-back programs in a competition, and whose potential may never be realized. A skater with Sasha's beauty, grace, and talent should have multiple National and World titles under her belt by now!

And, though the National judges are very biased, I do think that they were willing to give Sasha the National title. Unfortunately, over the years, Sasha never performed to the level that would cause them to even consider it!

About this quad...well, why not? I mean, Sasha usually makes silly mistakes--falling on jumps or other elements that she should be landing in her sleep. Perhaps she would be more successful on this more difficult jump.

[Artemis]

^ Although I agree there are some parallels with Nicole, I think the similarities end when you look at overall athletic attitude. Nicole's biggest problem was that she was enormously talented, and thought she could skate by ( ;) ) on talent alone without putting in all the hard work that it takes to be an elite athlete.

With Sasha, it's not laziness that's her problem; she's dedicated and a hard worker. Her problem is mental: for whatever reasons, she can't seem to "keep her head together" in the big competitions.

So in that regard, I'd say she's more like Josée Chouinard than anyone else.

[Schmeck]

I thought one of R. Wagner's complaints about Sasha was that she took the summer off, and came back way out of shape. That sounds very Bobek to me!

[lenneysk8er08]

Sashas tried the quad 2 times in competiton. once at the 2001 Finlandia competition but fell and the other at skate america and poped.

[hiliairyh]

And, though the National judges are very biased, I do think that they were willing to give Sasha the National title. Unfortunately, over the years, Sasha never performed to the level that would cause them to even consider it!

About this quad...well, why not? I mean, Sasha usually makes silly mistakes--falling on jumps or other elements that she should be landing in her sleep. Perhaps she would be more successful on this more difficult jump.

National judges' bias helped Sasha too. I thought Sarah should be ahead of Sasha in a couple of the nationals.

It is good for Sasha to practice the quad or talks about the quad, keeps her in the front of the press

[danibellerika]

I thought one of R. Wagner's complaints about Sasha was that she took the summer off, and came back way out of shape. That sounds very Bobek to me!

Skaters will have there ups and downs and points of lack of motivation. I think a big reason why Sasha left is that she probably noticed changes in herself (along with her skating) that she didn't like. In the past, Sasha's never skated this badly on a consistent basis. And if being out of shape is what caused her to skate the programs she did earlier this season, then that shows me she normally isn't out of shape. Not to mention, considering what TT had Sasha doing last season (and considering what Sasha does to herself), she worked herself into illness.

[Alaska]

I thought one of R. Wagner's complaints about Sasha was that she took the summer off, and came back way out of shape. That sounds very Bobek to me!


Do you think she might have taken time off because it was what her doctor told her to do? Robin is for Robin and made herslf look unprofessional by putting Sasha down.

Sasha is no Bobek and never will be. She is a classy young lady with alot of pressure on her. The only thing Sasha lacks is the ability to shake all that pressure from everyone to win gold. I think she feels like she is letting everyone down if she doesn't get gold and that can be depressing. No other skater gets critiqued like Sasha.

I love her skating and I would like to watch her once where they are not pointing out how she failed again through the whole program. We can see the mistakes for ourselves in her programs as well as everyone elses.
I for one would just like to enjoy the music and the skating, warts and all, without the commentating through the whole program. It is very distracting and ruins the magic of alot of beautiful skating. They can go over the mistakes during the highlights and I can go get a coke or something. Guess you have to buy a ticket to escape it tho.

[duane]

Sasha is no Bobek and never will be.

Well, she's doing a great imitation.

She is a classy young lady with alot of pressure on her. The only thing Sasha lacks is the ability to shake all that pressure from everyone to win gold. I think she feels like she is letting everyone down if she doesn't get gold and that can be depressing. No other skater gets critiqued like Sasha.

Totally agree. However, being able to handle pressure is usually the difference between gold and silver (or, gold and bronze...or, gold and not making the podium). A skater can have all the talent, beauty, and class in the world, but if she cannot handle the pressure, she will probably never stand on top of the World/National/Olympic podium. This is why Sasha is so critiqued, because she clearly has the talent to be National/World/Olympic champion, but has yet been able to handle the pressure at these events.

[danibellerika]

Well, she's doing a great imitation.



In terms of never getting it done in competition, I'd agree. In terms of overall work ethic, I wouldn't.

I'm getting sick of the complaints myself. We already know most likely she's going to fall or mess up. Just let it happen and look on the brightside. Until Sasha figures out what she needs to do to stop the mistakes in competition (maybe she will and maybe she never will), moaning and complaining only makes it worse for yourself. Ever since I just started to accept it stopped being so annoyed about it (took me almost 4 years), it hasn't been too bad I've found because a marred Sasha is still more entertaining to me than someone clean and boring.

[Schmeck]

On the other hand, I find Sasha's habit of splatting very boring - same old, same old. Of course, we could liven it up, start a betting pool about how long she can keep her concentration :roll:

I guess until Michelle starts falling at every competition, then moaning and complaining about her consistency, longevity, and work ethic will only make it worse for her non-fans as well? :twisted:

[danibellerika]

Well if it's boring for you, you shouldn't care to post about her so much, especially since she's not even winning with these boring marred programs.

I wasn't referring soley to Michelle with the clean and boring comment (though just about all but 3 of her programs qualify to me), but moaning and complaing about her makes it worse as well. Once again though, on the brightside, she's so close to being out of here and luckily we got a glimpse at a bright and exciting future for the US.

[hiliairyh]

but moaning and complaing about her (Micgelle)makes it worse as well.

:)

Once again though, on the brightside, she's so close to being out of here and luckily we got a glimpse at a bright and exciting future for the US.

That is an indirect way of moaning and groaning :lol:

I am sure after she retires the put down won't stop, and the moaning and groaning about her will continue :lol: Actually if all but 3 of her programs does anything for you, then why watch her yada yada etc
Not sure what you define as a bright future for US. By US you mean USA? or us :lol: If you mean USA, what is your credential for speaking on behalf of the USA ;)

[danibellerika]

:)



That is an indirect way of moaning and groaning :lol:

I am sure after she retires the put down won't stop, and the moaning and groaning about her will continue :lol: Actually if all but 3 of her programs does anything for you, then why watch her yada yada etc
Not sure what you define as a bright future for US. By US you mean USA? or us :lol: If you mean USA, what is your credential for speaking on behalf of the USA ;)

I'd answer those question if your opinions or "assessments" meant anything to me or were even in the ballpark for being right on.

[adrianchew]

I guess until Michelle starts falling at every competition, then moaning and complaining about her consistency, longevity, and work ethic will only make it worse for her non-fans as well? :twisted:

Michelle never will - she's far too cautious and will always double and pop jumps to avoid falling. If Sasha or other skaters adopted the same attitude as Michelle's "play it safe every time" they'd skate clean a lot more often too.

Its easy to stay clean (stand up on jumps) when you're not taking risks. If Michelle could deliver what she's capable of, then that'd be quite something - but 7 triple programs with a 2-axel is something we haven't seen from Michelle in years. And probably never will again... they're gone forever, she won't even try.

[hiliairyh]

I'd answer those question if your opinions or "assessments" meant anything to me or were even in the ballpark for being right on.


:lol: You already answered :lol:

[danibellerika]

No I didn't, but so long as you're happy thinking you know it all, then whatever. :lol:

[strawberrywine]

:)



That is an indirect way of moaning and groaning :lol:

I am sure after she retires the put down won't stop, and the moaning and groaning about her will continue :lol: Actually if all but 3 of her programs does anything for you, then why watch her yada yada etc
Not sure what you define as a bright future for US. By US you mean USA? or us :lol: If you mean USA, what is your credential for speaking on behalf of the USA ;)

Now here's the real issue hiliairyh, , would you even have a logical, coherant thought if you didn't insert all of those smilies? How childish, hiding behind little emoticons in an attempt to put others down, when you have nothing constructive to say... let alone having anything at all to say. It's all kindergarten level drivel that's spilling out from you into your posts. Furthermore, a lesson in basic grammer and common sense would do one good--here's to all the help you can get.

[hiliairyh]

No I didn't, but so long as you're happy thinking you know it all, then whatever. :lol:

Oh I don't know it all, just know that you don't have the credential to speak for the future of US skating

I know American skating past present and future seem bright (just check the records) because of many factors that include Michelle, and Sasha and other skaters.

I speculate America skating would be bright even if MK and SC had never laced up any skates. :lol: Let the record show that the past 2 Olympic gold medalists were not Michelle Kwan, and the record also shows that Sasha Cohen is not a world gold medalist yet.

[danibellerika]

As an American, I sure do speak for the US and never forget it. Heck, as a skating fan, I can say whatever I please about the skating in ANY nation.

[strawberrywine]

Oh I don't know it all, just know that you don't have the credential to speak for the future of US skating
And yet, what makes you think that you do? That's right, you're just some person who thinks they know it all. What a credential.

[hiliairyh]

As an American, I sure do speak for the US and never forget it. Heck, as a skating fan, I can say whatever I please about the skating in ANY nation.

OK same right goes to other Americans and skating fans who disagree with your assessment of the future of US skating. :)

[danibellerika]

I'm not seeing where I said otherwise. That's one of the main reasons why there are skating boards anyways.

[hiliairyh]

I'm not seeing where I said otherwise.

Glad we have the understanding. I think there are many outstanding American skaters incljuding Kwan who contribute brightly to US skating. Whether you like her or not, it does not take away her place in US skating

[danibellerika]

Her success shows enough of her contribution along with me admitting that I do like 3 of her programs (and her spiral and split leaf). 3 is a nice number for someone I normally don't care for. I just noted my appreciation for Sasha moreso than others because of what she does for ME. Sure it'd be magnified if it weren't for the mistakes, but that's just how it is.

[strawberrywine]

Her success shows enough of her contribution. I noted my appreciation for Sasha moreso than others because of what she does for ME. Sure it'd be magnified if it weren't for the mistakes, but that's just how it is.Which brings another interesting point--it is Michelle who has had greater failures than Sasha. Michelle's success's are not as great as they are being made out as. What lay person can name the world champs of the last 4 years? Or the national champs of the past 4 years? Ask that same person who won the Olympics--they'll tell you that one. The national championships and world championships really don't mean jack. It's just filler between the Olympic years.

[fadedstardust]

Michelle never will - she's far too cautious and will always double and pop jumps to avoid falling. If Sasha or other skaters adopted the same attitude as Michelle's "play it safe every time" they'd skate clean a lot more often too.

Its easy to stay clean (stand up on jumps) when you're not taking risks. If Michelle could deliver what she's capable of, then that'd be quite something - but 7 triple programs with a 2-axel is something we haven't seen from Michelle in years. And probably never will again... they're gone forever, she won't even try.

Actually, doubling a jump counts as more than falling, a fall is an omition. She is smart, you obviously haven't read the rulebook. Maybe never seeing her fall isn't entertaining to you, but she's not skating for you, she's skating for herself first and if doubling a jump she'd otherwise fall on gets her more points then she should do it. MEANWHILE, she rarely actually pops or falls out of jumps, especially compared to the other ladies. And, except for Jenny Kirk who used to do a 3/3 and Kimmie Meissner who has an extremely cheated triple axel, NO ONE is doing anything more than Michelle is jump-wise, so why do you blame her for doing BETTER than everyone exactly the same program as everyone else? She's not doing any less triples than Sasha.

[fadedstardust]

Which brings another interesting point--it is Michelle who has had greater failures than Sasha. Michelle's success's are not as great as they are being made out as. What lay person can name the world champs of the last 4 years? Or the national champs of the past 4 years? Ask that same person who won the Olympics--they'll tell you that one. The national championships and world championships really don't mean jack. It's just filler between the Olympic years.

For the audience, maybe, but not for the skaters, and I've got news for you: when competitions roll around, skaters don't really give a crap if the audience isn't entertained or doesn't think the event is important. Most laypeople couldn't name the National champions or World champions of ANY other sport either- it doesn't mean it's worthless.

Meanwhile, Michelle has greater failures than Sasha? At least Michelle podiumed at the Olympics, twice. Sasha has yet to place at all. Sure, it may happen this time, but AT PRESENT TIME, Sasha's had plenty more failures than Michelle. Sasha has never won gold at Nationals, Worlds, OR podiumed at the Olympics, and Michelle has done all three.

[Schmeck]

Michelle never will - she's far too cautious and will always double and pop jumps to avoid falling. If Sasha or other skaters adopted the same attitude as Michelle's "play it safe every time" they'd skate clean a lot more often too.

Its easy to stay clean (stand up on jumps) when you're not taking risks. If Michelle could deliver what she's capable of, then that'd be quite something - but 7 triple programs with a 2-axel is something we haven't seen from Michelle in years. And probably never will again... they're gone forever, she won't even try.

Yeah, but when's the last time Sasha skated anything close to a clean, 7 triple program? She hasn't even managed a clean 6 triple one, has she? To me, it seems that Sasha is trying to 'play it safe' as well, but she still keeps falling.

I'm not saying Sasha is a horrible skater, nor that she will never win a substantial title. I really do believe she has the potential to be a champion. But until she stays off her butt, and wins a substantial championship, she's just one of the pack (which is getting bigger each day as the Olys approach) that has a chance at Olympic gold.

As for Michelle and 7 triples - no, we're not going to see that this year. But, I wouldn't be completely surprised to see her trying it next year, not at Nationals, but for the Olympics. It's really her last shot at the gold, and she can risk the injury more then. Why cripple yourself the year before the Olympics?

[yvettedeena]

Michelle never will - she's far too cautious and will always double and pop jumps to avoid falling. If Sasha or other skaters adopted the same attitude as Michelle's "play it safe every time" they'd skate clean a lot more often too.

Its easy to stay clean (stand up on jumps) when you're not taking risks. If Michelle could deliver what she's capable of, then that'd be quite something - but 7 triple programs with a 2-axel is something we haven't seen from Michelle in years. And probably never will again... they're gone forever, she won't even try.

Truthfully, when has Michelle popped and doubled a bunch of jumps...and still managed to win over competitors who were doing riskier jumps? And how is Michelle "playing it safe every time" if she has, in fact, landed 7 triple/2 axel programs before? Doesn't that mean she's wasn't playing it safe? Why do you consider it "easy" when Michelle has delivered a 7 triple/2 axel programs since she did manage to stay clean and stand up but her competitors are considered risky when they can't?

[danibellerika]

Yeah, but when's the last time Sasha skated anything close to a clean, 7 triple program? She hasn't even managed a clean 6 triple one, has she? To me, it seems that Sasha is trying to 'play it safe' as well, but she still keeps falling.



Sasha skated a clean 6 triple program in the worlds QR last year and she skated a clean 7 triple program at marshalls right after. She DID eek out 6 in the Worlds LP (both years really), but since 7 were attempted, it technically wasn't clean.

[Dustin]

Yeah, but when's the last time Sasha skated anything close to a clean, 7 triple program? She hasn't even managed a clean 6 triple one, has she? To me, it seems that Sasha is trying to 'play it safe' as well, but she still keeps falling.

Since you brought Michelle up later in your post, I thought it may be interesting to note that Sasha has done more 7-triple programs than Michelle in the past 3 years.

I'm not saying Sasha is a horrible skater, nor that she will never win a substantial title. I really do believe she has the potential to be a champion. But until she stays off her butt, and wins a substantial championship, she's just one of the pack (which is getting bigger each day as the Olys approach) that has a chance at Olympic gold.

And what exactly is wrong with being "one of the pack"? It worked for Sarah, and being the favorite didn't exactly work out that great for Michelle either time.

As for Michelle and 7 triples - no, we're not going to see that this year. But, I wouldn't be completely surprised to see her trying it next year, not at Nationals, but for the Olympics. It's really her last shot at the gold, and she can risk the injury more then. Why cripple yourself the year before the Olympics?

It never crippled her in the past to do those 7 triple programs. Some (including various commentators) have said she is in the best physical condition of her career, so why would it cripple her now?

I personally do not see the reasoning behind going for a 7-triple program only at the Olympics and not at prior competitions. Neither Sarah or Tara played it safe the entire season before winning their Olympics. They went all-out multiple times in the Olympics season and in seasons before. They had done many, many clean 7-triple programs with 3/3s in practice, and a few in competition within 2 years prior to the Olympics. I think they had a much better chance to go out there and do another one like they had done many times before than someone who hasn't tried one in competition for 4 years.

[Kemy]

I thought that Sarah got her 3/3's between Nationals and the Olympics...

[yvettedeena]

It never crippled her in the past to do those 7 triple programs. Some (including various commentators) have said she is in the best physical condition of her career, so why would it cripple her now?

Just because it hasn't crippled her in the past does not mean it can't happen now, especially considering that she is now, what, 24 years old? She was lucky - maybe she doesn't want to push that luck. If her aim is for the Olys, it would serve no purpose to screw her body up now and take herself out of competition.

I personally do not see the reasoning behind going for a 7-triple program only at the Olympics and not at prior competitions.

Did she and her coach really say that she was doing a 7-triple program ONLY at the Olys. My impression was that they were doing them in the season leading up to the Olys also.

Neither Sarah or Tara played it safe the entire season before winning their Olympics. They went all-out multiple times in the Olympics season and in seasons before. They had done many, many clean 7-triple programs with 3/3s in practice, and a few in competition within 2 years prior to the Olympics. I think they had a much better chance to go out there and do another one like they had done many times before than someone who hasn't tried one in competition for 4 years.

Different strokes for different folks. Everybodys pysche isn't the same. In the Olys against Tara, I thought Michelle seemed very nervous and scared. Not at all like she was at Nationals. And at the Olys against Sarah, her season leading up to the Olys was not great, she pretty much performed the way her season had been going. Now, she has a great reason to go all out because this could very well be her last Olys - maybe that's what she needs to go out and just let it go.

[hiliairyh]

Her success shows enough of her contribution along with me admitting that I do like 3 of her programs (and her spiral and split leaf). 3 is a nice number for someone I normally don't care for. I just noted my appreciation for Sasha moreso than others because of what she does for ME. Sure it'd be magnified if it weren't for the mistakes, but that's just how it is.

Of course we know some skaters do nothing for some fans, and some skaters do a lot for some fans. That is the subjective part of fandom.

What I was puzzled by your statement "on the brightside, she's so close to being out of here and luckily we got a glimpse at a bright and exciting future for the US" IMO USA has a long history of excellence in ladies skating. Even if MK has never laced up a pair of skates or if Sasha is skating exclusively for Israel, US skating is just fine. Reality is Michelle contributes to the sports. The height of her achivement has not reached Olympic gold. Tara and Sarah reached that height for USA. Meanwhile Michelle Kwan's achievement in world competitions sets up nicely as the excellence between the Olympic games. "Glimpse of a bright future" implies that the present is not bright???

I understand if she retires then your viewing pleasure may be possibly brighter. OTOH even if Michelle has not retired, you always have the choice not to watch her. :)

[hiliairyh]

About taking risk and skating clean. Skaters have to balance the strategy that best suit them. I think Tarasova's choreography for Shizuka Arakawa's R&J is packed with risky jump entrance and in betweens, that might have contributed to her poor performance this season. Sasha Cohen's current sp, and lp do not impress me as being particularly risk taking. She hands down on the triple lutz combination in the sp, not sure that was particularly risky move. In the lp her program was frontloaded, and I don't see any Arakawa like risk taking choreography either

[Tapper]

Regarding taking risks...
I value quality versus quantity. That is, I appreciate a "do the best with what you do best and skip the rest" performance. I think that Michelle does that and that is probably one of the things I like about her skating. So, I don't get all freaked that she isn't doing a 3/3. I don't think it's worth it to throw in a 3/3 if she can't pull it off consistently. JMHO. I think it's great that Sasha is working on a quad, but I won't be impressed if she throws it into her program only to fall on it, or to double foot it (like Mr. Weiss, over and over and over again!) I will, however, be TOTALLY impressed if she puts it in her program and does it perfectly. I understand that some fans place a high value on the risk factor and really enjoy it when skaters try to do things they can't do consistently and just hope that they will land it in the competition. But I think that there's a risk in everything a skater does... cliche time, the ice is slippery... and that the skater has to weigh the risks. I admire Kwan's attitude and approach. Johnny Weir... I admire him too... he goes for quality, I think, and he hasn't marred his programs with failed attempts at quads. I'll bet that when he has them down he'll put them in. But not before.

[Schmeck]

I've got a correction to make about one of my posts - I meant to ask if Sasha had done a clean 6 triple program this year. I know she's had a few brilliant skates in the past couple of years - but I haven't seen that this year at all. So, comparing how Michelle has skated this year and Sahsa, I;d put Michelle ahaed. Doesn't mean she'll stay there though.

Anyways, I'm thinking Worlds is going to answer a lot of people's questions about comparing what Sasha does well and what Michelle does well, as long as they skate close to their potentials. If either has a disastrous skate, then CoP won't mean too much in comparison, in my opinion. But, we'll have three sets of results for comparison, and I'm expecting some interesting discussions of their short programs.

[likes2skate]

Michelle never will - she's far too cautious and will always double and pop jumps to avoid falling. If Sasha or other skaters adopted the same attitude as Michelle's "play it safe every time" they'd skate clean a lot more often too.

Its easy to stay clean (stand up on jumps) when you're not taking risks. If Michelle could deliver what she's capable of, then that'd be quite something - but 7 triple programs with a 2-axel is something we haven't seen from Michelle in years. And probably never will again... they're gone forever, she won't even try.

IMO, Sasha has adopted this attitude as well.

2003-2004 Worlds... where were the risks? Where was the 3/3? Where was all the choreograpy from the beginning of the season? Where was the 7 triple jump attempt?

Where were all of the risks in her GP programs? She did not even attempt a combo at Skate Canada

2004-2005- I have seen no risk taking from Sasha...just attempts at a 6 triple program with no 3/3 and little choreograpy.

Where is the quad we heard so much about?

How can you say Sasha has been a risk taker and Michelle has not? Sasha has not attempted a 3/3 since 2003, and Michelle has not attempted one since 2002.

Sasha has not skated a risky program since 2003 Worlds, IMO. Michelle has not attempted one since 2002. They are on the same page, in my book. No 3/3. no choreograpy, kinda boring to watch except for Sasha's spins and spiral, and MK's spiral and SFL.

Both programs are snoozers.

[danibellerika]

Of course we know some skaters do nothing for some fans, and some skaters do a lot for some fans. That is the subjective part of fandom.

What I was puzzled by your statement "on the brightside, she's so close to being out of here and luckily we got a glimpse at a bright and exciting future for the US" IMO USA has a long history of excellence in ladies skating. Even if MK has never laced up a pair of skates or if Sasha is skating exclusively for Israel, US skating is just fine. Reality is Michelle contributes to the sports. The height of her achivement has not reached Olympic gold. Tara and Sarah reached that height for USA. Meanwhile Michelle Kwan's achievement in world competitions sets up nicely as the excellence between the Olympic games. "Glimpse of a bright future" implies that the present is not bright???

I understand if she retires then your viewing pleasure may be possibly brighter. OTOH even if Michelle has not retired, you always have the choice not to watch her. :)

You may be as puzzled as you like. Sure, she can win a lot. But to me she's gotten stale which implies that no, the present isn't that bright. It's like just because she wins a lot I'm supposed to act as if she's a god and I don't because it doesn't mean much to me. Sure, she's put her stamp on history, but so? Is that supposed to make me like her more? Excellence and excitement aren't necessarily the same thing. Michelle's contributed in medal count (which can be the excellence), but to me there was MUCH more excitement going on from the 3rd place on down with the younger sprites duking it out. My idea of a brighter future is excitement. I think it's going to be much better when they are duking it out for 1st rather than 3rd on down because that always garners more attention. You can tell all these young ladies will be great. And yeah, I can turn the channel, but I usually tape and I wait around to see if Sasha or others will talk to the commentators. I don't need to go out of my way to not watch kwan. I see her, am bored (more than not), and just wait for what's next.

And I'm not going to totally disagree about Sasha's Nats LP. It was anything but impressive and seeing the younger ones duking it out, and getting nats experience, she may get left in the dust if she keeps making mistakes and they keep improving.

I think Sasha's SP was great for the first time out. She only had a hand down, but she was still very good. Michelle underrotated her lutz, had practically no footwork into her flip and that program wasn't particularly anymore challenging (probably less since Sasha's the much better spinner), but is anybody complaining?

[adrianchew]

How can you say Sasha has been a risk taker and Michelle has not?

There's a big different between doing doubles and triples for skaters at that level... doubles are so easy to do and not mess up... Michelle doubles her jumps, instead of trying to complete what she plans. Sasha always goes for planned content, even it if means she's not clean.

Skating clean's easy, when you're choosing to double/pop/etc instead of trying to complete the planned triples. Sasha risks not being clean in favor of completing the planned content, Michelle plays it totally safe. And that's why Michelle can skate clean, that's all I'm saying.

[hiliairyh]

You may be as puzzled as you like. Sure, she can win a lot. But to me she's gotten stale which implies that no, the present isn't that bright. It's like just because she wins a lot I'm supposed to act as if she's a god and I don't because it doesn't mean much to me.

Then we have different definition of what is bright for USA skating. Since the present of USA skating includes Michelle, Sasha, Jenny, Kimmie etc, so Michelle Kwan could not possibly darkens the present USA skating that much objectively. Subjectively, if you know you will be bored by her, but keep watching, then you darken your own viewing pleasure by your own choice. Who said you should treat her like a god?

Sure, she's put her stamp on history, but so? Is that supposed to make me like her more?

Who said you need to like her.


Excellence and excitement aren't necessarily the same thing.
Agree, not the same thing. There is objective measures for excellence. Excitement is subjective. A skater who excites you may bore others to tears. OTOH, medal counts and excellence in skating history are cold hard facts.
For example, I thought Tara's Nagano lp was more exciting than Sarah's 02 SLC lp, that is shubjective. Objectively both won the OGM and contributed to the excellence of USA skating history. I have repeatedly said that USA skating present and future is will be bright with or without Michelle or Sasha

My idea of brighter future is excitement.
My idea of a bright present or future is medal count and world berths

And yeah, I can turn the channel, but I usually tape and I wait around to see if Sasha or others will talk to the commentators. I don't need to go out of my way to not watch kwan. I see her, am bored (more than not), and just wait for what's next.

Your choice to watch her, knowing that you will be bored, then whine about it later.:)


I think Sasha's SP was great for the first time out. She only had a hand down, but she was still very good. Michelle underrotated her lutz, had practically no footwork into her flip and that program wasn't particularly anymore challenging (probably less since Sasha's the much better spinner), but is anybody complaining?

Neither sps were perfect, I thought the judges called it right. I am not complaining :lol:

So far in this season, Sasha popped a triple loop, and Michelle doubled her lutz. I am sure Sasha meant to do a triple loop, and Mk a lutz. I don't see one skater is taking any more risk than the other.

[danibellerika]

Then we have different definition of what is bright for USA skating.
Yup. Nothing wrong with that. It's just how it is. Maybe that's why you were so puzzled.



Who said you need to like her.

Anytime I say anything but complimentary, you usually become Michelle police on me. It's your perogative, just know that it changes nothing.



Agree, not the same thing. There is objective measures for excellence. Excitement is subjective. what excites you may bores others to tears. OTOH, medal counts and excellence in skating history are cold hard facts.
For example, I thought Tara's Nagano lp was more exciting than Sarah's 02 SLC lp, that is shubjective. Objectively both won the OGM and contributed to the excellence of USA skating history. I have repeatedly said that USA skating present and future is will be bright with or without Michelle or Sasha


My idea of a bright present or future is medal count and world berths

Not interested in your idea and never said otherwise about excellence.


Your choice to watch her, knowing that you will be bored, then whine about it later.:)

I watch all skaters whether I like them or not and shall comment. It just so happens to be that the comments are usually the same. You may consider it whining, but as I've said, your views really are not my concern. I don't like Joubert, but I watch anyway to see where he's placed, and sure, I'll talk about his lack of originality but it'll be over with. Onto the next competition.


Neither sps were perfect, I thought the judges called it right. I am not complaining :lol:

Well, you wrote as if it were soley Sasha dropping the ball in that dept.

[adrianchew]

So far in this season, Sasha popped a triple loop, and Michelle doubled her lutz. I am sure Sasha meant to do a triple loop, and Mk a lutz. I don't see one skater is taking any more risk than the other.

Actually, Michelle didn't even attempt a triple loop. http://skatingforums.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

And as far as skaters at her level (World podium kinda material) goes - she's the only one I know this season not trying a 3-loop. http://skatingforums.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Too much chickens have been slain, this is the result I think! http://skatingforums.com/images/smilies/angel.gif

[fadedstardust]

There's a big different between doing doubles and triples for skaters at that level... doubles are so easy to do and not mess up... Michelle doubles her jumps, instead of trying to complete what she plans. Sasha always goes for planned content, even it if means she's not clean.

Skating clean's easy, when you're choosing to double/pop/etc instead of trying to complete the planned triples. Sasha risks not being clean in favor of completing the planned content, Michelle plays it totally safe. And that's why Michelle can skate clean, that's all I'm saying.

Well, for this argument to hold water, we should try and compare how many times total since the year 2000 has Michelle Kwan doubled a planned triple, and how many times Sasha Cohen has fallen. I think the math will show that Sasha's fallen a heck of a lot more times than Michelle's doubled a jump, so even if Michelle had been to fall the times she'd doubled, she still wouldn't falter half as much as Sasha does (and they BOTH have a similar level of difficulty in their programs as far as jumps are concerned, Sasha's not doing the 3/3 either...). And meanwhile, anyone that actually understands the beauty of figure skating and wanting to respect it as an artform AS WELL as a sport will tell you that they'd rather see a beautiful double than a fall. In my book, it's sort of like Kimmie and her triple axel- sure, good try, but if you don't have it, then you don't have it, skate a clean program and keep working at the rink. I think it's sad people would rather see three rotations and a splat fest (or half turn cheats) than nicely flowing and executed numbers. It's not like Michelle doubles her jumps often- Sasha falls ALL the time. She WOULD get more credit if she just threw doubles in there instead of the falls.

[likes2skate]

There's a big different between doing doubles and triples for skaters at that level... doubles are so easy to do and not mess up... Michelle doubles her jumps, instead of trying to complete what she plans. Sasha always goes for planned content, even it if means she's not clean.

Skating clean's easy, when you're choosing to double/pop/etc instead of trying to complete the planned triples. Sasha risks not being clean in favor of completing the planned content, Michelle plays it totally safe. And that's why Michelle can skate clean, that's all I'm saying.

I don't know...to me if you do a double instead of a planned triple, it is still a mistake and while it is not a fall, it still messes up the program.

By saying she is a risk taker for attempting triple jumps...it just sounds like you are glorifying her falls. In 2003, I definately agree with you that she took risks, she attempted the 3/3 at every competition. To me, that is risk taking.

Also, I am not a skater, but I would think doubling or popping a jump would have more to do with some kind of timing issue vs just bailing out?

Anyway its not like Michelle doubles a jump every time she skates. I mean, the girl has had 1 or 2 clean programs with no double jumps. :)

[duane]

Michelle never will - she's far too cautious and will always double and pop jumps to avoid falling. If Sasha or other skaters adopted the same attitude as Michelle's "play it safe every time" they'd skate clean a lot more often too.

Sasha has adopted this attitude. When is the last time she has taken risks in a program?

Its easy to stay clean (stand up on jumps) when you're not taking risks.

HUH?? I don't think any skater would consider landing triple jumps "easy". Still, if its easy to stay clean when you're not taking risks, why does Sasha continue to not stay clean?

[danibellerika]

I agree that lately Sasha has not been taking the risks she did in 2003 and I believe it has hurt her greatly. Not attempting the 3/3 last season was one of the worst ideas. She seems to fall whether she's taking risks or not so she minus well just take the risks and mess up than not take risks and still mess up.

Michelle on the other hand has shown in the past that she is indeed capable of more complicated programs (as in 7 triples with a 3/3 and a lot of choreography) than she is putting out today. That's where I think her lack of risk comes into play. We know she can do more and do it well.

[TheGreasyFry]

I think Sasha attempting a quad is definately not a great idea. I firmly believe that if Sasha could hold her head together, she would be unbeatable. Sasha is definately a gorgeous skater. I mean, I have watched her program for the free skate event from this past nationals last month, and I was blown away by just how beautiful her skating is. I see a girl who loves to just skate, and goes for more than just the jumping aspect of it. She also excites me because I feel that she really has the drive to skate. On that note, I feel that Sasha could easily wipe out everyone with just the average technical ability that she has shown in her recent programs. If she lands those jumps, and skates the way she always does in her programs, there would be no end to her. The quad is just unneccesary as she could win with normal triples and 3/3 combo's (as we all know she can do).

Michelle has definately proven herself in the past, and we know what she can do. I do believe that it is a better thing for her not to go crazy trying to keep up with the technical ability, as I seeing that distract her from overall programs and causing her to make more errors (due to her getting older and probably being tired out from so many years of competing... I mean there is only so much a body can handle, no matter how good shape one is in). I also believe that if she can complete the normal triples and a few combo's, she's fine. What does dissappoint me though, is that her program isn't as nearly complex as it used to be. Some examples are her DoD short program from '97, the Ariane LP from '99, and so on. Her program was packed with different steps and arm movements. One thing I notice though, is that when she does exhibitions, and short programs, her artistry is back to her old self. I think she is somewhat self destructing herself with her recent longprograms, because she could easily up her scores by just relaxing and flowing her her music, make it seem like she's skating to music. Skating is not just a sport but an art, and if the painting is not painted right, it's just not worth the time.

[Schmeck]

If she lands those jumps, and skates the way she always does in her programs, there would be no end to her. The quad is just unneccesary as she could win with normal triples and 3/3 combo's (as we all know she can do).


Skates the way she always does in her programs? That means she falls, then she tightens up and loses her spark, with the 'deer in the headlight' or the grimace-smile plastered on her face. I think you'd rather that she skate up to her potential?

And the 3/3 - didn't see one this year, how many were landed last year? I don't know she can do it at all!

[loveskating]

Skates the way she always does in her programs? That means she falls, then she tightens up and loses her spark, with the 'deer in the headlight' or the grimace-smile plastered on her face. I think you'd rather that she skate up to her potential?

And the 3/3 - didn't see one this year, how many were landed last year? I don't know she can do it at all!

Hmm. Guess that's the way Sasha won all that gold in the GP Series for two years, including one GP Final, and beat Kwan at Worlds last year.

Have you forgotten this, or do you consider those wins irrelevant? Are ONLY Kwan's (lately often held up) wins relevant? Don't even dare claim they were clean...I bet at least 3/4 of her 6.os come from programs that were in fact not totally clean, or that would not stand up to the COP as clean!

Now, if you want to claim, as all Kwan fans do, that Kwan could not do a 3/3 toe loop in 98 at Nagano because of a TOE injury, then you cannot turn around and claim that Sasha should do 3/3s this season having had an INJURED BACK.

IMHO you only take those risks with injuries for an Olympic gold, like Kulik did.

The FACTS state that Sasha has already attempted in competition far more difficult combination jumps, not to mention jump entries, than Kwan EVER DID. This is a fact, is it not?

[TheGreasyFry]

Sasha actually did complete a triple lutz/triple toe in the 2003 worlds in Washington D.C, and two or three times completed a 3toe/halfloop/3salchow combination earlier that season as well... so to me she has proven she can do it.. I see what she is physically capable of.. and I think if she would do what she is capable of, she would be unstoppable.

[fadedstardust]

Sasha actually did complete a triple lutz/triple toe in the 2003 worlds in Washington D.C, and two or three times completed a 3toe/halfloop/3salchow combination earlier that season as well... so to me she has proven she can do it.. I see what she is physically capable of.. and I think if she would do what she is capable of, she would be unstoppable.

Except a lot of skaters are "physically capable" of a LOT more than what they do in competition. It's being MENTALLY CAPABLE to pull it out when you've only got ONE shot at a big competition and knowing if you miss it, it'll cost you the podium, that she (as well as some others) doesn't have. Skating is half physical and half mental. A lot of Sasha fans, when making their predictions, forget this. Sasha's got the physical part down- no argument. The mental though? Oy vey.

[Schmeck]

loveskating, my questioning of Sasha's ability to do a 3/3 was in response to TheGreasyFry's post that I quoted, the part about 'as we all know she can do'. I don't know that she can do a consistent 3/3. I will admit that Kwan also does not have a consistent 3/3, but Kwan is more consistent with her solo triple jumps. Although I do wonder what's going on (or off) with Kwan's loop jump!

Does anyone know if Cohen landed a 3/3 in the 2003-2004 competition year? Was the last one at 2003 Worlds? Is she planning on adding a jump series instead of a combination?

How many 3/3 has Cohen landed in competition in total?

Cohen is a very talented skater. She's one of the best in the World. She has yet to prove herself 'the best' in the US or the World though. I don't believe she has ever been 'held down' by Kwan being 'held up', if anything, the judges tend to hold Cohen up above other skaters. They see her potential, that's for sure. I just hope that they don't get tired of waiting for her to get her entire act together and start placing other skaters above her. That's still possible, even with CoP.

[bunghodog]

This is a fact, is it not?
No it is not a fact. :frus:

There is no way Sasha will go for the quad. She will first master the 3/3. I feel with Nicks she will by next year.