Sasha vs. Irina

[prunes89]

Irina is the one to beat, and Sasha is just the lady to do it. Sasha beat Irina in one of the GP's in '02 (was it COR?) and Sasha later went on to defeat Irina once again at the GPF '03. You go girl! :) Sasha then went on to kick butt at Worlds '04 (the next time she competed against Irina) and then again at the cheesefest at the end of last season. Sasha is on a roll.
I think Sasha will top Irina once again at Worlds this year. I've seen Irina's program for COP and while it's good, it's predictable. Sasha has innovative moves, the best jumps in the field, and can match Irina's smiles for her own dramatic flair. Besides, Irina seems too confident now and it's never good to be overly confident.
I am waiting for the Sasha vs. Irina showdown at Worlds. Any predictions? Based on COP, who has the better program?

[AxelAnnie22]

I wouldn't be counting that chicken just yet! Although last year or the year before that, I would have given you pretty good odds, but not this year. Irina has come roaring back, with the excellent technical skills (no flutz, and that's for sure), and fabulous choreography and presentation to match. If they both skate clean, I don't think Sasha can beat her. And, of course, when was the last time Ms. C. (who I love, btw----but then I also love Angela and Joisee-----skated a clean LP?

[prunes89]

Sasha skated a clean LP in the Worlds QR '04, and again at the cheesefest a few weeks later. Sasha has an amazing ability and even with a fall (or more than one) she is still going to come close to beating Irina..or any other skater. Look at some of the scores she gets with more than one fall, if she skates perfect I think she'll beat them all! And don't forget she is practicing the quad and has played with the 3loop/3loop last season.
Are Irina's 3/3/2's fully rotated? I read that they're not, but the judges didn't call it. I heard it was actually a 3/2/2. Is that right? Sasha could easily do a 3/2/2 and match it. One thing about Irina is that she looks sloppy sometimes. When she makes a mistake she tries to throw jumps in wherever and it disrupts the presentation. Even with a fall, Sasha's presentation is the best in the business.
I am anxious for Worlds.

[pairs_guy]

Well with this new system Irina can't just throw jumps in. They are only aloud to do 8 jumps I think it is. So if she misses a jump and throws one in at the end it doesn't count. I think Irina is the one to beat this year. These top american girls haven't been out there with this new system this year and I think it will come back to haunt them at worlds.

[mskater]

No doubt Irina will be the one to beat at this year's Worlds. I just hope she can continue on her wave of confidence(((crosses fingers))). Sasha's an awesome skater and who knows, maybe she'll come out swinging at Nationals and Worlds but I still pick Irina over Sasha for this year.

I'm not sure I agree with the comment about Sasha's jumps being stronger than Irina's? I do love how Sasha's able to point her toes throughout her jumps but Irina's are much stronger and higher. Plus she's able to perform triple-triples on a fairly regular basis. Just seems like Irina has really learned how to work this new judging system to her advantage.

[shadymc]

I don't know what next year will bring, but I don't think Sasha has a prayer against Irina for this season. IS is back and mentally strong after not being able to be out there for so long. I think the Skategods owe her after all she's been through and I have a sneaky feeling she may go undefeated this year. Sasha is a beautiful skater, but her basic skills are no where near as good as Irina's. Irina is faster, has more difficult in-betweens, has much better edging and has bigger, stronger jumps covering more space. Irina also has 3/3's which enable her to go for 7 triples.

Now, I may be wrong, and I promise I will be the first to apologize if I am, and give Sasha her props, but, I do not believe we will ever see Sasha land a quad. I think that was all about gaining notariety in an effort to make the Olympic team. Notice she stopped attempting them before nationals in '02 and has not tried since. From the practice reports I've heard, she has not made an attempt since last year and, at that time, she was still in a harness. Out of ten attempts, she could land it only a couple of times. That means she would still be years from being able to land one in competition, if ever. Being able to do it on the sidelines is a long way away from being able to do it in competition. As for 3/3's, I don't know how well she can do a 3 loop/3 loop. From what I saw, I also don't see Sasha doing the 3 lutz/3 toe again. She tried to land this for two years and then did it once, and it was underrotated. It won't count under COP. And the real problem is, if she does land it, it seems to take too much out of her, and then she can't cleanly finish the program. Anyway, since her program is still empty and she has a lot of work to do to just get in decent shape for this season, I can't see her spending time on 3/3's for this season. Perhaps next year she might try again, but it would be awfully difficult and risky to try a new combination in an Olympic year, but a few have done it successfully.

[fadedstardust]

Is Sasha even getting graded level 3 for her amazing spirals? I thought she was getting level 2s- irina's getting level threes for her edges (outside/inside going in BOTH directions). I love Sasha, she's my favorite skater I'd say, but she doesn't have a chance against Slutskaia this season. Although everyone has a chance, anything could happen. But my thought is that right now Irina is even beating the world champion. She's got experience this season already. Sasha skated badly in the only event she did, then had an injury, and her program, while I enjoy it, really doesn't have much difficultly or many places in which to rake up points. I don't think a 3/3 will win everytime, but a 3/3, a 3/3/2, and the difficulty of Irina's program vs the lesser difficulty of Sasha's and her 3/2's, and her unlikeliness to be clean throughout, I don't really see her as a contender at this point. I don't think Sasha's moment will come til the 2010 Olys, I doubt 2006 is her time. She's just beautiful to watch, but she's completely unfinished mentally, she has a lot to figure out about herself before she can 100 percent rely on her jumps when it counts, and until she dares step out of her mold and try something different with her progran (and perhaps coach).

[3ggi3]

Sasha has competed four times under the CoP...and happens to be the World Record holder. As strong as Irina has been this year, her best score is still more than 10 points off Sasha's THREE top scores. Indeed, Sasha's THREE top scores (out of four) are ten points more than ANY female skater has EVER done. And this is without a 3/3 or quad...and in some ways without Sasha being absolutely amazing or perfectly clean.

Also, many of the others have competed in GP events this year or last as well. Michelle is about the only American "girl" with no CoP experience.

I do love Irina, but looking at the scores in the way that the new system allows, Sasha, provided she is healthy, still has the edge.

Oh stop choking over Sasha. Sure she has the strongest spirals and spins marks, but Shizuka will probably be a buffer between Irina and Sasha. I don't believe that Sasha has skated well enough this season to think of technically loading her program and still being able to make it through without doing something silly. Shizuka and Irina have enough of both marks to beat her this year. Who cares about past CoP scores. In no way do they give us an idea of how a skater is skating now, and besides, rules have changed since Sasha did the Grand Prix CoP.

[3ggi3]

Even with a fall, Sasha's presentation is the best in the business.
I am anxious for Worlds.

Actually, Irina has consistently had higher presentation scores than Sasha in the 6.0 system, and because of the CoP, I believe that this could continue as Sasha's Long program is rather diluted.

[phoenixxx]

There's absolutely NO WAY you can compare this season's COP scores to last year.

The fact that Sasha scored a 187 in last year's GPF w/ her falls in both the SP and LP, and Irina scored a 190 without any falls in both her her SP and LP, should tell you so.

If you want to, fine. But it's a HUGE mistake if you think it's an indicator to how things will pan out this season.

[shadymc]

What you're all saying is true. COP is deducting now for falls, whereas it did not do this last year. This is clearly good for IS, who rarely falls, and bad for Sasha......well, you know the rest (don't want to jinx her).

Also there are rampant rumours running that next year COP will give bonus points for 3/3's. Bad for Americans girls, good for IS and Shiz if the latter can improve her rotation.

Bondo, I do agree with the part of your statement that if Sasha returns to '03 form she can compete with any skater. Indeed this is true. Putting aside everyone's personal preferences and any boot or other momentary problems the skaters are having this year, Sasha, Michelle, Irina and Shiz are the 4 best in the world and can be a threat to win everytime they step on the ice. The rest of the skaters are levels below them.

[3ggi3]

Oh, and I would like to have you provide a bit of evidence that Irina was traditionally higher on presentation marks than Sasha under 6.0. I certainly haven't noticed anything resembling a trend in that regard.

Yes, naturally you wouldn't, as you have not been watching skating long enough to catch a pattern. As well, many Detailed Classifications for past events have been removed due to the gradual change-over to CoP. You go look for yourself.

[3ggi3]

Actually, Irina has consistently had higher presentation scores than Sasha in the 6.0 system, and because of the CoP, I believe that this could continue as Sasha's Long program is rather diluted.

LOL I want to quote myself.
I think that Sasha made some nice changes to her Long Program, as I posted in the "Marshalls is on" Thread I started in the Events Section. BUT, if she continues to make huge mistakes on jumps, her presentation marks will continue to fall.

[3ggi3]

I am waiting for the Sasha vs. Irina showdown at Worlds. Any predictions? Based on COP, who has the better program?

Have you forgotten Shizuka and Michelle?

[AxelAnnie22]

Christ, fine, no one pay attention to objective scoring points. For me to point out that Sasha's score happens to be clearly higher than Irina's this year and say that as long as Sasha returned to her quality of fall of 2003 she would easily compete with any other skater suddenly means I'm "choking over Sasha?" I never said Sasha would return to that quality right away.

Honestly, stop wanting to write me off as a blind fan for two seconds and actually consider what I write and maybe you'll realize it makes sense (even if you don't agree.) You look like a freaking idiot.

Oh, and I would like to have you provide a bit of evidence that Irina was traditionally higher on presentation marks than Sasha under 6.0. I certainly haven't noticed anything resembling a trend in that regard.

Bondo - I would agree with you, but that was Sasha a la TT. At the moment, Sasha seems to be off track. She had a fun filled summer, which put her off track at the beginning of the year. She re-injured an old injury (which may have been the result of rushing to try and catch up), and now she is out in California - vacationing? Three weeks before Nats? I am happy to be proven wrong, but I think Shasa is squandering away her wonderful talent. Although we haven't seen her skate, I am worried. She has an un-tested track record (really) with Robin, and Robin has no track record with elite skating under CoP.....if I am correct. I am really worried about her. Had Sasha been out there competing all year, might be a different story, but I don't think so.

[AxelAnnie22]

Have you forgotten Shizuka and Michelle?
No, but now that you mention it, I think we can. Shizuka, IMHO, was a fluke last year. Irina was out of the running, and Sasha and Michelle both had problems. She walked through a door that was left wide open...even an invitation on the door. Kwan....well........this is CoP......Worlds in Moscow? I don't think so. I am actually waiting for her to retire after Nats. I hope she doesn't (for her sake), but I think there is a good chance she won't show up.

[prunes89]

IMHO, I don't think we'll see Michelle on the Worlds podium. I think it'll be Sasha, Irina and Shizuka. Michelle will settle for a top 5 finish, but won't be on the podium.
I truly believe that Sasha will get it together for Worlds this year and knock the socks off Irina. Just wait!

[Skatingsarah]

I believe is Sasha and Irina both bring their "A" games, Sasha will prevail. I may be a little bias but I'm not a huge fan of Irina. Her skating just doesnt do the same thing to me as Sasha's does. There are many more diamensions to Sasha. If they are both one I think Sasha will capture the gold especially under the CoP.

[prunes89]

Also, Sasha has already beaten Irina several times in competition AND Sasha holds the record high CoP scores for ladies.

Go Sasha!

[fadedstardust]

With Michelle's finish at Worlds last yer (which was honorable but not her best by far), and if she ends up not winning Nationals and is off the podium at worlds, is she even going to get sent to Olympics? There's really not much competition in U.S. ladies right now, but I could see Sasha, Kimmie, and maybe Angela, or someone else getting sent, and Michelle missing out. I don't enjoy Kimmie's skating, but I could see her getting sent nonetheless.

[Rachel]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Kwan off the podium at Worlds this year--or on it, either. It is not a particularly predictable year. Irina is skating very well and so is Joannie Rochette; everyone else seems to be struggling.

I would be stunned to see Michelle replaced by Angela on the Oly team, even if Michelle is off the podium. Kimmie would be a surprise, too, although not as big a surprise as Angela. A bronze at Worlds might be disappointing for Michelle, as would being off the podium, but I don't think anyone would expect Angela to be a top five contender at the Olys, while I think that would be realistic for Michelle. Kimmie, OTOH, is an up-and-comer and could use the experience.

As for Sasha, this is just not her season. I do expect her programs to be reworked by Nationals, though, and I think Sasha will have a fresh attitude then, too, so anything is possible. But it's going to be hard for her to pull off a great performance at Worlds after her injury and subsequent lack of practice time.

[fadedstardust]

Yeah, I was just saying Angela because I don't know who else has been around a while and doing well this season, and I doubt they'd send TWO unexperienced skaters, if they already send Kimmie. The ladies field is so weak right now. I don't think 2006 will be a big year for U.S. ladies at the olys. We'd be lucky to have ONE on the podium.

[Kemy]

I don't think Shizuka was a fluke last year. I think Tatiana has packed her program TOO well. I bet they could take some of the jump entrances out or changing them without losing too many points.

The COP from last year was different from this year's version. It's much harder to get higher levels on elements this year than it was last year. I did like Tatiana's version of Sasha's Swan Lake better than Irina's Queen of Spades, but I'd have to say that Queen of Spades beats Nutcracker (as it stands.)

If World's were held today, I'd give it to Irina, Shizuka and then a cointoss would decide between Sasha or Michelle.

[loveskating]

I love them all, and will be pleased if the judges reward the skaters accurately as to how they skated.

Irina may not have flutzed at GP Finals, but she missed her lutz combo at all at COR so basically that second attempt did not count. Irina is a great, great skater, but so far, I see she has the same problem, that in competion she is not fluid enough, does not finish off her elements enough, tends to stiffen up.

I don't think Irina underrotated her 3/3/2 since the base loop is going to be underrotated -- they all do it. Skating is not abstract, its concrete. Arakawa really did underrotate a number of her jumps, though, at COR. If she were not so fluid, so deep in her knees, she would surely have splatted!

[bridgeport]

Let's just enjoy the skating of both. Other than to each of them and the $ endorsements bring, who really cares who is "best" at any given moment? Each bring particular strengths and areas for improvement. When each is "on" she is a joy to watch.

[loveskating]

I enjoy them all, and all the up and comers too. but at any given time, I think some are better than others. I just meant to say I don't think Irina is a shoe-in...but I'm always happy when she wins. I love her.

I think it will be between Irina, Sasha, Arakawa and Michelle, or maybe someone besides Michelle even, like Julia Sebastyn...she looked awfully solid at COR, made some mistakes, but if she had a substantially clean skate, wow! Previously, to me she seemed a bit out of control, especially on her jumps, but maybe that was just early season stuff. She looked wonderful to me at COR except for the layback.

I agree that Arakawa is not a fluke...she is a really fine skater, and extremely fluid too, great edging.

[r3incarnation]

Also, Sasha has already beaten Irina several times in competition AND Sasha holds the record high CoP scores for ladies.

Go Sasha!

I think several is a bit of an overstatement. As well, the judging system has changed since Sasha last skated in it. Nonetheless, I hope everyone goes to Worlds prepared. I have my favourites, but I am a skating fan, not a critic!

[icenut84]

I think it will be between Irina, Sasha, Arakawa and Michelle, or maybe someone besides Michelle even, like Julia Sebastyn...she looked awfully solid at COR, made some mistakes, but if she had a substantially clean skate, wow! Previously, to me she seemed a bit out of control, especially on her jumps, but maybe that was just early season stuff. She looked wonderful to me at COR except for the layback.

I'd love to see Julia among the top contenders. :) I think she's often very underrated by fans, and often overlooked, but she's a very good skater and has the biggest jumps in the business. I loved both her SP and her LP last season. I haven't seen her this season (won't till Euros) but hope she kicks butt! :)

One thing's for sure, with all these amazing skaters who could peak at any time (Slutskaya, Cohen, Kwan, Arakawa, Ando, Suguri, Kostner, Sebestyen, Sokolova, Rochette, Pavuk, etc), Worlds is going to be so exciting!

[loveskating]

I think several is a bit of an overstatement. As well, the judging system has changed since Sasha last skated in it. Nonetheless, I hope everyone goes to Worlds prepared. I have my favourites, but I am a skating fan, not a critic!

Well, in a clean skate with prepared difficulty, under the COP, Sasha Cohen can beat anyone in the world, IMHO! That includes Ando with a quad;wouldn't include Irina or Arakawa with a quad, perhaps. The reason is that there is such high technical quality in almost everything Sasha does...and her variations and transitions, as well as her sureness of movement and fluidity are just top notch. She is probably the most "stretched out" skater who ever lived, so that her every movment carries great weight and meaning, and fills the rink.

Take a look at her SP at last Worlds if you want to see absolute perfection in every way.

[Kemy]

Well, in a clean skate with prepared difficulty, under the COP, Sasha Cohen can beat anyone in the world, IMHO! That includes Ando with a quad;wouldn't include Irina or Arakawa with a quad, perhaps. The reason is that there is such high technical quality in almost everything Sasha does...and her variations and transitions, as well as her sureness of movement and fluidity are just top notch
That may have been true last year in the COP comps, but so far this year, she has one difficult entry (the catchfoot spiral into the salchow) and steps that rival Michelle's steps into the lutz. Her spins are still fast, but I don't see as much difficulty as there has been in the past. Unless she adds more to her Nutcracker program, I would have Sasha and Michelle battling for 3rd at Worlds. Her crossovers rival Michelle's this year.

[loveskating]

Agree. Kemy...she will have to at least put in 3 flip/2 toe loop and maybe second flip, or stuff like that, to add difficulty. But based on what she has done in the past, including landing 3 lutz/3 toe loop in competition, she can do it.

[prunes89]

How many times has Sasha landed her 3/3 and competition? I know it is amazing

[AstarZ41]

How many times has Sasha landed her 3/3 and competition? I know it is amazing
Once :lol: She did also land the 3toe/half loop/3sal a couple times at cheesefests.

[Lark]

I am not a huge fan of either Sasha or Irina, but I do enjoy some of their programs.
If I were going to pick one, I would say Sasha over Irina, with comparable skates.
IMO, if Sasha were to skate 100% cleanly, she would be unbeatable.
She would be the female Plushenko.
Again, IMO, and IF she were to skate cleanly, which she never does.
If Sasha and Sandhu could get their heads on straight, they would be World Champions, easily.

[Schmeck]

If Sasha were to fix the flutz, and the wonky entry into her flip, and not fall once in all three skates at Worlds (we have QR there, right?) I think she'd win at Worlds, without a 3/3. But how are they going to call her multiple edge change on the lutz and flip, when Irina has a clean lutz?

[fadedstardust]

If Sasha were to fix the flutz, and the wonky entry into her flip, and not fall once in all three skates at Worlds (we have QR there, right?) I think she'd win at Worlds, without a 3/3. But how are they going to call her multiple edge change on the lutz and flip, when Irina has a clean lutz?


I've always wondered how she managed to get a lip out of her flip....I couldn't imagine switching edges back and forth on a FLIP....how did she pick that up? Makes no sense.

[prunes89]

Doesn't Irina flutz or lip too though? I read a comparison once, but I can't remember at which board that said the only lady to do a true lutz was Maria B, and that not even Irina did a true lutz.
Could someone comment on this?
Also, a lutz alone won't win or lose a competition. Sasha would just need to do everything else to absolute perfection and she is working at it.

[Skatingsarah]

I'm not tooo sure but I think Irina changes her edge more so on the flip then the lutz. Its only really slight though. I love Sasha and I'm totally rooting for her to win, well everything lol. Although she really flutzes and 'lip's alot. I havent seen her skate in a long time but i imagine it is still there. Maybe she will surprise us all at nats, I really hope so!

[icenut84]

Doesn't Irina flutz or lip too though? I read a comparison once, but I can't remember at which board that said the only lady to do a true lutz was Maria B, and that not even Irina did a true lutz.
Could someone comment on this?

I think Irina's lutzes used to be either a shallow outside edge or a flat. She occasionally had a slight flutz, but I think more often than not it was a lutz. I haven't seen her skating this season yet, but according to reports she's lutzing, and she also has a good flip.
There are other skaters who do true lutzes too, but it seems to be a dying breed of those who can both lutz and flip. There are some left (e.g. Kostner, Sebestyen) but not many.

[loveskating]

Too much can be made of the flutz...its minor when one's overall skating is supurb and the tech quality is high.

No one knows how anyone will actually skate on a given day, but from my POV, and by the COP, Sasha has the goods to beat anyone out there.

Sooner or later, like Paul Wylie or Ilia Kulik, she will deliver on them.

What do you mean by wonky entry to her flip? Sasha routinely lands a 3 flip/2 tl, and had a serpentine entry to her flip in Swan Lake?

[Schmeck]

"Serpentine Entry" - that's a unique way of putting it... :roll: Maybe she's looking for extra points by adding edge changes? :lol:

When you change the edge twice or three times (or more!) right before the jump, it's not good technique. So, even if all your other elements are fantastic (although Sasha's edging on her spirals still appears shaky sometimes to me!) having poor technique on two of the most difficult triples is not good. In CoP, it can hurt.

[loveskating]

"Serpentine Entry" - that's a unique way of putting it... :roll: Maybe she's looking for extra points by adding edge changes? :lol:

When you change the edge twice or three times (or more!) right before the jump, it's not good technique. So, even if all your other elements are fantastic (although Sasha's edging on her spirals still appears shaky sometimes to me!) having poor technique on two of the most difficult triples is not good. In CoP, it can hurt.

Uh, I believe you are mistaken...under the COP footwork (and other elements) into jumps is a plus, you get more for it, not less, and she did. Sasha also did serpentine footwork into her 2 axel in Swan Lake as well.

Sasha's axel is among the best, IMHO...lots more speed into it and bigger relative to body size, totally pure technically, "proper backspin position" in the air, like Plushenko or Irina...MUCH more speed into and out than Kwan, for instance, including with the serpentine footwork entry.

[Schmeck]

The quick change of edge before Sasha does her flip is not footwork, it's a bad technique of entering her flip. It's not as bad as her lutz entry, but it's on the same idea. If she were doing an edge change 5 seconds before her jump she'd just be doing backwards power pulls (pre-juvenile MITF?) but then she'd have to remain on that inside edge before she toepicked into the jump. She does not. She switches back and forth on her edge right before she toepicks. There's no clear arc into her jump, just a wobbly line. That's why I was laughing at the term 'serpentine entry'.

[loveskating]

The quick change of edge before Sasha does her flip is not footwork, it's a bad technique of entering her flip. It's not as bad as her lutz entry, but it's on the same idea. If she were doing an edge change 5 seconds before her jump she'd just be doing backwards power pulls (pre-juvenile MITF?) but then she'd have to remain on that inside edge before she toepicked into the jump. She does not. She switches back and forth on her edge right before she toepicks. There's no clear arc into her jump, just a wobbly line. That's why I was laughing at the term 'serpentine entry'.


Very funny...hilarious!

[fadedstardust]

Uh, I believe you are mistaken...under the COP footwork (and other elements) into jumps is a plus, you get more for it, not less, and she did. Sasha also did serpentine footwork into her 2 axel in Swan Lake as well.

Sasha's axel is among the best, IMHO...lots more speed into it and bigger relative to body size, totally pure technically, "proper backspin position" in the air, like Plushenko or Irina...MUCH more speed into and out than Kwan, for instance, including with the serpentine footwork entry.

Lutzing a flip and flipping a lutz isn't footwork, as someone else pointed at before me, it's bad technique, and it's pretty simple to clean up (ESPECIALLY for the flip) so I don't know what excuse an elite skater has not to have done it. But oh well. Despite the tone of this post, Sasha's one of my favorite skaters, but as much as she has perfect extension, perfect spins, and perfect lines, her jump technique as a whole really isn't all that great- ironically I'd say it's the worst part of her skating. Seems to be the part that keeps her away from the Gold, anyways.

[loveskating]

Lutzing a flip and flipping a lutz isn't footwork, as someone else pointed at before me, it's bad technique, and it's pretty simple to clean up (ESPECIALLY for the flip) so I don't know what excuse an elite skater has not to have done it. But oh well. Despite the tone of this post, Sasha's one of my favorite skaters, but as much as she has perfect extension, perfect spins, and perfect lines, her jump technique as a whole really isn't all that great- ironically I'd say it's the worst part of her skating. Seems to be the part that keeps her away from the Gold, anyways.


serpentine footwork into a flip jump cannot remotely be called lipping a flip... Sasha has a great flip jump...an entirely different issue is that Sasha does flutz her lutz...but so does Kwan, and so does Irina occasionally. A flutz is a relatively minor problem because so many skaters flutz or tend to flutz.

[Schmeck]

You really believe she's doing 'serpentine footwork'? Has she been getting bonus points for it? I'm off to check, because it looks like lousy technique to me.

[iskatealot]

I saw that women dont have to wear skirts anymore. Does anyone think that the judges like/dislike this rule or have they marked anyone down for not wearing a skirt??