New Debbi Wilkes article on TSN

[Lise]

http://www.tsn.ca/figure%5Fskating/news_story.asp?ID=107289&hubName=figure_skating

[Schmeck]

Well, if she could get her facts straight, maybe I'd not think this article is a big waste of internet space...

[danibellerika]

Suppose she missed the memo about WHY Sasha didn't compete :roll:

[sk8lvr]

Unless the rest of you know something I don't, like some legitimate reason to selfishly "dis" the ISU by not participating in the GP, I think both Kwan and Cohen, providing they qualify through US Nationals, should have their world invitations revoked immediately."
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This is definitely an :roll: :roll: article full of cheap shots. And wouldn't she be happy to have Kwan and Cohen absent from Worlds, Phaneuf and Rochette would be 2 spots higher! Good grief!

[Mariadonna]

Unfortunetly for some skating fans it gets even worse. Wilkes has been appointed to be a technical judge by the ISU for this upcoming Worlds, and yes they can do that. They already did. (chicagosports.chicagotrib...orts-print) Phil Hersh.

[skaternum]

What a bunch of tripe. :roll: Ms. Wilkes, one of the ISU's newest lap dogs, must have assumed we'd miss the hypocrisy of her ranting. She criticizes Kwan et al. for being more interesetd in the big fat wallet, while ignoring the fact that it's the big fat wallet that drives the ISU. If the ISU weren't afraid of losing TV and other revenue from a no-name Grand Prix, she wouldn't even be writing that article. Methinks the lady doth protest too much!

[sk8er1964]

Unfortunetly for some skating fans it gets even worse. Wilkes has been appointed to be a technical judge by the ISU for this upcoming Worlds, and yes they can do that. They already did. (chicagosports.chicagotrib...orts-print) Phil Hersh.

Here's the Hersh article link.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/printedition/cs-0411040314nov04,0,3369990.column?coll=cs-sports-print

[loveskating]

I think its a good article on the whole, but no rule should be retroactivley invoked. I think the ISU should make such a rule (with real injury, such as Sasha has, an excuse) but only enforce it after they make it.

They let Michelle Kwan get away with this last year, and they let her get away with not being in the GP Finals and skating in only one event the year before that...and said not a word when she declared after a cheesy event this year that she wanted to skip the GP Series because "it made her skating better"(???) so it would therefore be TOTALLY unfair to sanction Sasha and Plushenko now. Plushenko only did what Kwan has done now two times.

I don't even think they should sanction Kwan...THEY let her get away with it, and of course, others like Plushenko felt they were entitled to what she was being given, so they ought not to blame that on her. Make a rule, then enforce it on ALL.

That has been the problem...grantiing special favors arbitrarily or saying nothing when special favors are taken!

[Saundy]

So let me get this straight...Michelle Kwan wasn't in the Grand Prix this season because she thinks the "Cheesefests" help her skate better?? (correct me if I'm wrong please). I'm sorry, but if that's true, I think it's pathetic (just my opinion of course). I think being in the Grand Prix where you have REAL competition, and not just bescially an exhibition, would help your skating. I love her skating, but backing out of the Grand Prix for those reasons is a bit ridiculous if it's true.... :roll:

[Alexa]

Though in some ways I previously would have agreed with the frustration that top skaters were not competing in the GP this year, after reading this article I hope more skaters sit out the GP series and that it simply goes away.

As much as I like to see the competition, I think it is a bit much that the ISU and people like this columnist are trying to be bullies about forcing the skaters to attend.

Bring on the cheesefests, and end the GP :)

I have to also ask, what was she talking about when she was slamming Sasha and Michelle and saying that they have not performed under the new point system? Sasha did several GP events last year using that system.... Perhaps the writer meant not having been scored under COP this year, but I think Sasha has a good idea of where she falls in the COP after using it last year. As for Michelle, no she has never used it, but she has consulted someone to review her programs, so she does seem to have some exposure.

Editing to add that I hope Sasha and Michelle kick some butt at worlds this year to show Ms. Wilkes that the GP is not necessary for survival.

[SkateFan123]

I think its a good article on the whole, but no rule should be retroactivley invoked. I think the ISU should make such a rule (with real injury, such as Sasha has, an excuse) but only enforce it after they make it.

They let Michelle Kwan get away with this last year, and they let her get away with not being in the GP Finals and skating in only one event the year before that...and said not a word when she declared after a cheesy event this year that she wanted to skip the GP Series because "it made her skating better"(???) so it would therefore be TOTALLY unfair to sanction Sasha and Plushenko now. Plushenko only did what Kwan has done now two times.

I don't even think they should sanction Kwan...THEY let her get away with it, and of course, others like Plushenko felt they were entitled to what she was being given, so they ought not to blame that on her. Make a rule, then enforce it on ALL.

That has been the problem...grantiing special favors arbitrarily or saying nothing when special favors are taken!
First, the "rule" was made after the season began and should not be enforced this year at all. Second, it is the federations that pick who goes to World's, not the ISU. Currently, the GP Events are not a requirement for World participation.

I totally support skaters rights to determine which non-qualifying events they want to skate. It's their skating career, not mine!

[Fruit Loops]

Bring on the cheesefests, and end the GP

I couldn't disagree more. Cheesefests are just that...cheesey. Skaters water down their programs or don't seem to try their hardest to win. The judging makes the ISU seem saintly. If these 'cheesefests' were a string or tournament of serious competitions separate from the ISU then I would agree. In the GP skaters are at least able to establish themselves as competitiors which seems to be necessary to rank well against already-proven skaters at Worlds. Cheesefests only further elevate the top skaters and crowd favourites.

[Snowflake3939]

In the past I have always enjoyed hearing what Debbi has to say and most of the time I've agreed with what's been said. When I found out that she and Tracy Wilson had been asked to be technical specialists, I said that I thought they would now have a hard time being objective. Unfortunately, this article has confirmed my worst fears and I'm very disappointed.

[Artemis]

When I found out that she and Tracy Wilson had been asked to be technical specialists, I said that I thought they would now have a hard time being objective. Unfortunately, this article has confirmed my worst fears and I'm very disappointed.

Well ... I agree that this article indicates that Debbi is far from objective when it comes to the CoP and the ISU -- a fact that should affect her ability to be a journalist. However it's not her job as a TS to be "objective" about the system. Her only job as a TS is to be objective when it comes to assessing the relative merits of each skater's program.

[Mariadonna]

The point is that Debbie has been appointed a technical judge as well as being a journalist. Technical judges have a great input into the final scoring. This is a conflict of interest. However, Michelle saying she wanted to sit out the GP in order to work on her skating is just bogus. She sat out the GP and then showed up at Marshall's with a weak, 5 jump program. Sasha has a legitimate excuse because of her back problems. I think the ISU went ahead and let Plushy do COR because at least when he shows up he does extreme skating.

[Snowflake3939]

Sorry, I should have said "be objective about her commentating on figure skating in general. I have no doubts that she can be objective when it comes to "calling". What I have trouble with is, deep down, I don't think she can commentate on the state of the ISU without now somehow feeling loyalty to the ISU. The pre-ISU Debbi might have also brought up the issue of the ISU changing the rules mid-season and that fact that they let Michelle Kwan get away with it in previous years. I don't think she can objectively write articles showing both sides any more.

[Schmeck]

Why is Michelle's plan to not compete in the GP 'bogus' [counterfeit, fake] - she usually does SA and SC, which are early, back-to-back weekend competitions, and she didn't feel ready to push herself for those competitions, so she declined them. Why is that fake? It sounds pretty honest to me. I guess she could have requested some later in the year, but she didn't.

[Lise]

I think it's because Michelle hinted at an injury and then said she wasn't doing the gp since it doesn't help her skating or something like that.

[Mariadonna]

It's bogus because MK said she needed time to work on her program. Obviously, she didn't do much as she only had 5 triples. At least Plushy comes with a decent skate.

[SkateFan123]

I couldn't disagree more. Cheesefests are just that...cheesey. Skaters water down their programs or don't seem to try their hardest to win. The judging makes the ISU seem saintly. If these 'cheesefests' were a string or tournament of serious competitions separate from the ISU then I would agree. In the GP skaters are at least able to establish themselves as competitiors which seems to be necessary to rank well against already-proven skaters at Worlds. Cheesefests only further elevate the top skaters and crowd favourites.
Both types of events exist only to capitalize on TV revenues. The GP events existed before (some did, that is) but the concept of the GP Series was developed after ABC was willing to air the events which resulted in prize money for the ISU, thus figure skaters and speed skating. Period. 4Cs was also developed with this in mind. So we had Pro events, PRO-AMs, the GPF and 4Cs all resulting in big bucks for skating. Now the big TV bucks have dwindled, so has prize money.

I don't blame skaters for choosing to skate where the prize money is higher. After all, skating is there job at the elite level. Wouldn't you want to work for more money, rather than less money? Especially if that lower paying job took you around the world.

[LTM]

gee you guys must think there are just hundreds of people just lining up to be technical specialists huh?
I'm assuming to do this job you have to really know the elements inside and out to be able to call them. And be able to afford to do the various competitions as I don't think these people are being paid are they. They are getting what expenses, maybe a little stipend but since most aren't independantly wealthy I imagine they have to keep their day jobs.
Every sectional, regional, nation, international, if it using COP needs more officals than previous. IMO, as long as former skating champions who grew up to be journalists
don't cover events they are calling, I've got no problelm.
You got to get the specialists from somewhere, they have to very knowledgable (which Hersh isn't which is perhaps one of the reasons he's having trouble with COP) and their just aren't thousands of canditates to choose from.
Even in Canada where skating is popular.
Wilkes may never even call an event Kwan or Cohen are in.
And as for elevating the cheesefests-- gee let's hand more ammunition to those who laugh and sneer and describe skating as "not a sport" and every so often suggest it doesn't belong in the Olympics, ironically probably the reason Kwan is still skating.

[Artemis]

4Cs was also developed with [prize money] in mind.

Um, no. In addition to the fact that, as Bondo pointed out, it was developed as an equivalent to Europeans for the rest of the world (hello, 4 continents), it's also a throwback to the old days when there were only 2 continents in the skating game, and 2 big competitions leading up to Worlds: Europeans and the North Americans. 4CC was brought in to reflect the fact that European skaters had 1 more major competition to do before Worlds -- which could be either an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on the individual skater.

Also, the intent was that one day 4CC would be used as a qualifier for Worlds in the same way that Euros is, with a view to possibly eliminating the Q round at Worlds. Of course that would require the US to send its A team ... but that's a whole 'nother argument.

Prize money is a nice compensation for the skaters, especially since so many have a much greater distance to travel to the event than they do for Euros.

Wilkes may never even call an event Kwan or Cohen are in.

Well, Debbi is a TS for pairs, not for singles. So yes, she'll never be calling the score for Michelle or Sasha (or Plushy or Joannie or Cynthia or Jeff or Emanuel).

[SkateFan123]

Um, no. In addition to the fact that, as Bondo pointed out, it was developed as an equivalent to Europeans for the rest of the world (hello, 4 continents), it's also a throwback to the old days when there were only 2 continents in the skating game, and 2 big competitions leading up to Worlds: Europeans and the North Americans. 4CC was brought in to reflect the fact that European skaters had 1 more major competition to do before Worlds -- which could be either an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on the individual skater.

Also, the intent was that one day 4CC would be used as a qualifier for Worlds in the same way that Euros is, with a view to possibly eliminating the Q round at Worlds. Of course that would require the US to send its A team ... but that's a whole 'nother argument.

Prize money is a nice compensation for the skaters, especially since so many have a much greater distance to travel to the event than they do for Euros.



Well, Debbi is a TS for pairs, not for singles. So yes, she'll never be calling the score for Michelle or Sasha (or Plushy or Joannie or Cynthia or Jeff or Emanuel).

While 4Cs was intented to be equal to Euros, it never really has been accepted as Euros have been. Most of our top skaters don't bother going. It was developed at the request of ABC to have more events to televise. The concept was thought about before hand but never implemented until ABC provided the financial incentive.

Prize money is great for skaters. It has let skaters remain eligible longer. In the old days, after Olympics, most jumped in to the working work due to financial issues. Now they don't have to. Now they can go or stay, it's their choice. I totally agree with that.

But, having said that, why shouldn't it be their choice whether to compete or not?

Some federations may use Euros as a qualifier for Worlds but there is no ISU ruling that they should or must. The qualifier for Worlds is that the number a country can send is based on the prior years placements and approved by the ISU each June for the following year. Other than that, it's up to individual federations to determine using any method they want to use to select their representatives at Worlds.

I'm sure the ISU will add a few other rules this June to the current two that govern the World Championships.

[Fruit Loops]

I wouldn't mind seeing Euros and the 4CC becoming official qualifiers for Worlds and the worlds getting rid of the qualifying round. The National Feds still get to select their own (potential) World Team and send them to these qualifiers. It is then up to the skaters to make sure they qualify for the Worlds. If every country is automatically allowed to send 3 skaters to either 4CC or Euros then technically every federation has the potential to send all 3 to worlds, instead of having to earn spots from the worlds the year before. The dark side is some federations might not be able to send ANY, but at least under the current format they wouldn't be getting past the qualifying rounds anyways.

I just don't think the GP should become qualifiers for the Worlds because they seem so disconnected. There are nationals and the euros/4CC seperating the events. The National Feds should have a say who gets to go to the Worlds.

The GP are important, IMO, but I think the ISU should reevaluate how they're marketing/organizing them before condemning a small handfull of top skaters that have decided to bypass them. If skating depends on the prescence of one or two skaters then the sport is indeed doomed. They have to retire sometime. They can't skate forever. What then? The ISU should be celebrating these new stars and work with the media to start paying more attention to these new faces so the public can become interested in them too.

Edited to add: I like the idea of returning to amateur/professional distinctions instead of the grey elligble/non-elligble status of today. I've seen a couple editions of Marshalls, Cambells, or whateve it's called. It definately earns "cheesefest". They're fun to watch, but how can any viewer take it seriously? GP at least has the feeling of being a sport. Maybe there should be less emphasis on the series aspect, but the individual events carry quite a bit of weight, IMO.

[shadymc]

The point is that Debbie has been appointed a technical judge as well as being a journalist. Technical judges have a great input into the final scoring. This is a conflict of interest. However, Michelle saying she wanted to sit out the GP in order to work on her skating is just bogus. She sat out the GP and then showed up at Marshall's with a weak, 5 jump program. Sasha has a legitimate excuse because of her back problems. I think the ISU went ahead and let Plushy do COR because at least when he shows up he does extreme skating.

"A weak five jump program"??? Perhaps Michelle only did 5 jumps because she was having obvious boot problems. In addition, she showed up with more difficult innovative spins and much more difficult footwork, including one-foot footwork like Irina. Why do more difficult in-betweens only count for something when Sasha does them?

[Schmeck]

AAhhhhhhh........ (sigh of gratitude and contentment)

It's so nice to see that I'm not the only one who sees the GP as just a money making scheme of the ISU! No matter how much dignity and validity we (the hard-core fans) want figure skating to have, for the ISU it's all about making the most moola (IMO).

The top skaters don't want to do 4CC's because of the extensive travel (it rotates between four continents, while Euros is always in one general area, Europe!) and because it has been scheduled at the dumbest times - way too close to Worlds, IIRC. So it has the reputation of being the 'consolation prize', for those who did not make it to Worlds. Although, was there a US skater that did both?

[sk8er1964]

"A weak five jump program"??? Perhaps Michelle only did 5 jumps because she was having obvious boot problems. In addition, she showed up with more difficult innovative spins and much more difficult footwork, including one-foot footwork like Irina. Why do more difficult in-betweens only count for something when Sasha does them?

There is a difference between a footwork sequence and in-betweens - a footwork sequence is an element. The in-betweens are transitions between elements, and turns, arm movements, and ice coverage score higher than cross overs back and forth. The one time I have seen Michelle's program this year, it contained way too many crossovers and far too much skating back and forth. (Actually, that's been my big complaint about her programs for the past few years.) It needs a lot of beefing up on the in-betweens, and I hope she does that before Worlds. The beginning of the program was better than the end, and maybe the new choreography I hear she's working will help fill things in. She's a wonderful skater, but she needs to acknowledge the CoP in more ways than just spin difficulty. JMHO.

Ahhh, shoot. I had a brain blip, and thought I was on a different thread. As far as this thread goes....

Over on FSUniverse, someone put forth this idea, which I though was quite interesting:

Eliminate the GPF. Put the top six finishers in each discipline in the final warm up for the short program at Worlds, and have all the other skaters skate the QR's for thier pecking order. Start at an even slate for the SP. That way the GP's would mean more to the skaters than just $$$.

[Mariadonna]

Shad- If in fact MK thinks she can sit out every GP season and then waltz in at the end and be handed medals with a weak program then she has some new lessons to learn. Those days are gone for MK. Speedy and the ISU are changing things for the better and if MK or her fans have a problem with that- oh well.

[SkateFan123]

Because without some central authority and structure, the sport is weakened. They have the choice not to participate in the sport, no one has ever considered denying them that. But if they choose to participate they shouldn't be able to participate only on their own terms rather than the terms of the sports organizing body.
Bondo, do you think that judging in secret, letting a computer randomize what scores to count and letting a possibly biased caller strengthen the sport? A caller who is hand picked by Speedy and accountable only to Speedy, I might add.

Most concepts of CoP are positive but I don't the concept of having a caller call what was done instead of judges doing that for themselves and judges that are not immediately accountable for their actions is a was to strengthen the sport. It certainly doesn't solve the problems that it intended to solve, which was judges that cheat.

Speedy's number one motivation is raising money for his beloved speed skating.

Personally, I think that figure skating should have it's own world federation.

[shadymc]

Sk8er1964,


Thanks for the clarification. But the point still remains the same. Mariadonna's post implied that Michelle said she was working on her program and showed up with a weak program. I was trying to point out that by all accounts her program was much more difficult at Marshall's, proving that she was working.

I still cannot believe all of the anger and resentment over a competition listed as an "invitational". If the ISU wants to make the GP series mandatory, then of course, they have the right to do so. Then any skater who does not comply for good reason should be sanctioned. But so far, it has always been a choice whether or not to participate and I think it's ridiculous to keep repeatedly attacking someone who is simply exercising their rights, as given them.

[SkateFan123]

I still cannot believe all of the anger and resentment over a competition listed as an "invitational". If the ISU wants to make the GP series mandatory, then of course, they have the right to do so. Then any skater who does not comply for good reason should be sanctioned. But so far, it has always been a choice whether or not to participate and I think it's ridiculous to keep repeatedly attacking someone who is simply exercising their rights, as given them.
I totally agree with you!

[shadymc]

By all accounts? I've heard a number of accounts that don't agree that Michelle's program was much more difficult at Marshall's

I don't know where you're reading, but many reliable non-biased posters who possess good technical knowledge all reported that Michelle's footwork (which was much improved and more difficult at Campbells), was made even more difficult by the addition of one-foot footwork. They also reported more spin positions and I believe the following picture depicts a much more difficult and unusual spin position.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20041204/capt.dtp10612040338.marshalls_skating_dtp106.jpg

So, since a multitude of reports came back from different sources stating the same improvements in the program, I'm going to state that, unless there was some mass hallucination, Michelle has indeed upgraded her footwork and spins.

[Artemis]

Eliminate the GPF. Put the top six finishers in each discipline in the final warm up for the short program at Worlds, and have all the other skaters skate the QR's for thier pecking order. Start at an even slate for the SP. That way the GP's would mean more to the skaters than just $$$.

Interesting premise, but ... I don't think it would work. For starters, the Grand Prix circuit doesn't always reflect the top seeded skaters, due to injuries, luck of the draw (since different skaters compete at different GP events), etc. Plus it wouldn't be fair to have some skaters at Worlds competing in a Q round while others don't have to.

There has of course been talk in the past of using the ISU ranking system that's based on all competitions -- not just the GP events -- to be used instead of the qualifiers. I'm still not thrilled with that system, in part because it doesn't adequately reflect current (as opposed to past) ability, but think it's a bit more workable than using the GP circuit only.

[sk8er1964]

Thanks for the clarification. But the point still remains the same. Mariadonna's post implied that Michelle said she was working on her program and showed up with a weak program. I was trying to point out that by all accounts her program was much more difficult at Marshall's, proving that she was working.

Ahh, ok. Thanks. I guess when I read the original post I was under the impression that you were saying Michelle's program was CoP ready, which I don't think it is. Yet. I would assume it will be by Worlds.

[Mariadonna]

Oh yeah, MK's Bolero is CoP ready. Why she's right up there with Slutz, Arakawa, and Plushy! Not.

[Oracle]

Odd, I thought skating was an Olympic SPORT and that world travel has always been a kind of important aspect of Olympic competition. Besides, many people cherish the opportunity to travel.

Maybe the change that needs to be made is not letting skaters subvert legitimate competition but go back to having skating without the financial incentive in the eligible ranks. If the skaters want to make money they can go pro, but if they want to compete for the Olympics, they should be ready to actually participate in the competitions.

P.S. 4CC is the equivilent to Euros, which has been around for over a century, for the rest of the world. It may have been founded recently but its creation should hardly be attributed to financial motives, after all it hardly creates a stir here.

Bondo, I know you are young but surely old enough to remember why the ISU suddenly began handing out prize money? Reason # 1- the collapse of the Communist system of subsidizing their athletes training & #2- to prevent the elite skaters FROM turning professional. The ISU wanted to destroy the pro competitions because they had been attempting for years to pull the professional skaters under the flag of the ISU without success. Over & over the pros would state they had had enough of the ISU dictatorship & they were not about to share any of their prize earnings with the ISU. Pro competitions paid huge amounts back in the days when Dick Button was still promoting them. $200.000.00 to the winner...4th place was worth about $25,000.00. The USA tv networks loved the pros & their competitions. That's where the TV money was being spent. So many of you put the pro competitions down because you don't grasp/understand what they were all about. They were very much about entertainment ability as well as technical & presentation ability. Popularity with the audiences were very much a part of the equation. If a skater couldn't reach out & connect to an audience they weren't going to be that successful as a pro or in the pro competitions.

[bleu]

Put down pro competitions? Hardly, I want to reinvigorate them. It is precisely because I want to restore the duality of strong amatuer and pro opportunities that I feel the profit incentive of elite amatuer skating should be removed. By all means the FSAs should get money from the ISU to offer skating financial support...but it should be limited to that and not just be general cash prizes to the skaters.

If the skater wants to focus on competition and winning the big events, and thus following the rules of the ISU, they can be amatuer level skaters.

If the skater wants the freedom not to follow the ISU and wants to make money off of their skating, they can be pro skaters. They shouldn't feel entitled to be able to do both of these and still get to compete in the amatuer competitions.

If a skater isn't good enough to succeed at either rank, that is too bad for them really, this is an competitive sport, it is about who is the best, not who wants to play. Those who aren't can still skate at their local rinks for fun. I mean, I'm free to play touch football in the park, that doesn't entitle me to play in the NFL.

:bow: to you. you ideas certainly make for the case of "this is a competition" and thus "a sport". At the end of the day, this is all that matters.

[LTM]

bondo :bow:
Some of the suggestions I've seen flying seem to suggest skaters get to do what ever the they want?
Do you get to do that in other sports? NO.
To be an Olympic sanctioned sport thus allowed to compete at the games you need a govening body and that body can set their rules accordingly. And for better or the recognized and santioned body for figure skating is the ISU

Trouble is skaters (or any athlete) at this level are highly competitive and no pro competition is going to cut it. It's that World title, that gold medal they are shooting for.

Yeh, maybe not fair.
But life ISN'T fair.
And as far as the money thing, the ISU is like any other business.
They don't make some money and pay their way, skating's gone especially in countries trying to establish the sport.
This sport is more than a few individuals.

[Schmeck]

The problem for the ISU is that the skaters who have the most TV recognition are the ones that will get the advertising execs to fork over big bucks - and if the Oly champ, World champ, US National champ, etc. goes pro, then who is the ISU going to hype? The general public doesn't care about some up-and-coming skater, and won't watch a competition on tv that doesn't have a big, recognizable (someone hyped during the last Olys) name at it. Why do you think so much of the GP is on ESPN now?

So, in order to keep the big money skaters, the ISU has to offer big money as well, etc. If the ISU could survive on less money from figure skating, then it could be a strict 'amateur' organization again. But it refuses to separate the figure skating from the speed skating, and it needs the figure skating $$$ to keep going.

[bleu]

The problem for the ISU is that the skaters who have the most TV recognition are the ones that will get the advertising execs to fork over big bucks - and if the Oly champ, World champ, US National champ, etc. goes pro, then who is the ISU going to hype? The general public doesn't care about some up-and-coming skater, and won't watch a competition on tv that doesn't have a big, recognizable (someone hyped during the last Olys) name at it. Why do you think so much of the GP is on ESPN now?

So, in order to keep the big money skaters, the ISU has to offer big money as well, etc. If the ISU could survive on less money from figure skating, then it could be a strict 'amateur' organization again. But it refuses to separate the figure skating from the speed skating, and it needs the figure skating $$$ to keep going.

I follow you until the end of the first paragraph. You want to tell me the reason why these top skaters opt out of the GP was money. They have always been wining all the prizes money! None of them gave money as a reason for skipping the GP. I believe injury was the reason.

In defence of the ISU[I can't believe I am defending them but surely this qoute calls for a defence], the reality is there is no money period. Less money was the result of the SLC 2002 scandal and the ISU is trying to make the most of this situation. In such circumstances, one can understand why the ISU is reacting.

[prunes89]

I think the ISU is to blame. They allowed Irina Slutskaya to skip the entire GP series, including Russian Nationals, and sent her to Worlds to compete. Did she pay her dues? NO! Why was she allowed to go to Worlds? Why is everyone only pointing fingers at the Americans? I know Irina was sick last year and tha't shame. BUT Sasha says she was injured, and Michelle has hinted to back problems. Unless the ISU knows something aobut Sasha and Michelle that we don't, I would say Debbie's in the wrong. They cut Irina slack, now do the same for the US.

[Mariadonna]

The loathing of the ISU is simple. MK fans have become use to having their idol be held up more then a pair of old stockings. The new CoP element judging and Speedy has pretty much put a stop to all that- thus the hatred. I'm loving every bit of it.

[Schmeck]

Sorry that I didn't clarify my above statements! Spent the day chaperoning 20 intermediate level sychro girls at a competition, one got injured, one came with the flu, and my own daughter Icy had a reaction to the cleaning stuff they used in the locker room and had to be taken to first aid and checked by a doctor before she could skate :roll:


US skaters would rather do the 'cheesefests' instead of the GP because the cheesefests fit into their training much better - they are always in the US (no tricky travel to another country, no jet lag, less chance of catching some foreign illness), they are well advertised and have decent prize money. It gets the skaters on TV twice before Nationals, and once more later on if they have the Spring one.

And TV ratings have everything to do with figure skating right now - the ISU wants to make the big bucks! The ISU doesn't give a fig for the integrity of the sport, and if anyone here believes otherwise, I've got a nice piece of swamp land for sale in Florida, or maybe I could interest you in a bridge? :lol:

[LTM]

OK how exactly is the ISU to support itself if it doesn't use the revenue generated by television?
What do you want to see go (outside of the GP series apparently). What programs for the large majority of skaters who will NEVER see the top of the podium do you want sacrificed. What countries, where skating isn't popular except with a few get cut loose.
I don't ascribe noble attitudes to the ISU, I do think however they very pragmatic. That's why COP came about
and that's why I imagine the ISU is being rather hardnosed now.
They know without revenue, partially generated by selling tv rights etc, they could go down. It's simple too expensive a sport and not generally popular.
And for the various skaters you got to ask, if there was no
ISU (or even a predominantly figure skating association
who of course would have oodles of money so never a problem with financing, figure skating being such a high priority
on the sports radar :roll: ) where would they be.
Browning would probably be riding the range in Caroline
Alberta and Kwan very well could flipping burgers to get herself through college.
One would have a very hard time exsisting without the other.
Oh, and on the "gee they cut Irina slack last year" thing.
There is a huge difference between a strained and injured back and an inflamed pericardium. (I believe that's what Irina had)
One may end a career, the other can severely limit your life or your quality of life. (some of you I'm sure have seen people hauling their oxygen tanks with them or know people who are severely exercise intolerant. One of the effects of severe heart damage.)
They didn't cut Irina slack. Having looked after patients with those sorts of heart ailments I can tell you, Irina was one sick puppy and it is so cool to see how well she's recovered.

[Schmeck]

The ISU could fund figure skating quite nicely without the drive for big tv revenues if it wasn't funneling money from figure skating to speed skating. Of course, if the ISU doesn't go for the big ad money at its events (ie the networks getting big bucks for its advertising during figure skating events because big names are there) then they won't even show Nationals and Worlds on network tv in the US. Because it's all about money right now, no matter how you want it to be. You've got to appeal to the sponsors, the networks, and the general public. That's why you don't see too much curling, fencing, skeet shooting, (add other obscure sport here) on network tv.

If the ISU wants the 'big guns' to skate at the GP events, they need to do a few things:

1. have fewer events - maybe only 3-4 of them, have more skaters compete at each one. Have them skate only their long program. Do the entire competition in one night. Dump the GPF - it's like a repeat of Worlds...

2. Schedule everything better - make Worlds in April, so the skaters have more time to rest after the GP.

[SkateFan123]

I don't buy your argument Schmeck. The problem with ratings hardly has to do with whether big names skate or not. Even though Michelle and Sasha are going to be at Worlds (in all probability,) it isn't going to be on ABC, only ESPN. And I don't care how lacking in star power, the ISU will be able to find a station to air skating. It may not have as high of ratings as it used to, but skating still gets higher ratings than a lot of alternatives most channels have. Figure skating will never be an equal to skeet shooting, curling, or fencing in obscurity. Michelle has only been around for a fraction of the time skating has been reasonably successful. New stars ALWAYS pop up.

This whole "the sky is falling" mentality about the ISU seems to be a problem of people overstating the importance of Michelle Kwan or any other individual skater.

I have no problem with the idea of spreading the skating season a bit more to ease the load, but to say they need to cut the number of events is a bit silly since skaters only compete in 2 (I would say cut the option for the third, expanding is an option to allow more to participate.) I do not think the GPF should be eliminated. 3 competitions at most in the "fall" season and 3 at most in the "spring" season (nats, worlds, and Euros/4CC...and I guess Olympics every 4 years.) 6 competitions is not too many. Heck, even Michelle intends to skate at 5 competitions in this incredibly light year, she just chooses the meaningless (and risk-free) ones over the GP series for 3 of them.
Bondo, the financial windfall that was bestowed upon skating when TV ratings skyrocketed and when US TV could not get enough of the sport occurred after the knee-wacking incident in 1994. Although skating was successful prior to that, the TV coverage was very weak. After '94, the volumn of skating events increased possibly to the point of saturation. Michelle was was every Nationals, Worlds and Olympics since then. She was an alternate in 1994, and a team member in 1998, 2002. She doesn't make the sport but clearly her success is undesputed. I would never attempt to tell her or any other skater which events they should elect to skate.

I do agree with the that that whole "sky is falling" mentality silly. Skating will continue when MK retires. While her achievements are remarkable, I atrribute them to the fact that eligible skaters can now earn money and remain eligible thus supporting longer eligible careers that previous skaters could have had. Skaters like Scottie, Brian, Peggy, Dorothy had to move on to make a living after they won their Olympics due to rules. We'll never know how many National, World and Olympic medals they could have won if money were not the issue that forced them to retire from competition at that level. Look at your current Ladies Olympic Champ. Sarah won, stopped competing but she still can come back for 2006 if she choses to!

The TV coverage issue is related to economics, pure and simple. Lots of viewers, lots of advertising money, lots of TV revenue for all. Period. The solution for poorer ratings these days is to find out why ratings are down. Is it because there were too many events? Is it because top skaters aren't skating an event? Is it because they are annoyed with the ISUs attempts to protect cheating judges? Is it because there are just other things to do? Or is there another reason?

I support a federations right to set guidelines for thier events and select the best team to represent them at Worlds and Olympics. I support the ISU efforts to get skaters to appear at events that spark an interest in the event. I do not support the ISU for attempting to change rules in the middle of the season.

If they ever make the GP Series a qualifier for Worlds, they either have to expand the events to accomodate more skaters from other countries instead of just seeded skaters or accept that Worlds will only have representatives from a few countries. I don't see the ISU dropping countries that do not have seeded skaters from sending skaters to Worlds or the Olympics. So if we expand the GP events to accomodate the additional skaters, they would become week long events too! As a fan, it's convenient to not blow an entire weeks vacation to attend a GP event.

Some of the most enjoyable times at Worlds have come from watching countries like China find success in the sport. Many years ago, their skaters rarely made it out of qualifiers or the short program to skate the long program. Now their skaters have found their way to the top! Even the level of skating at the bottom of the field at Worlds has improved. I'd really hate to see lower level skaters not compete.

[loveskating]

I think the ISU is to blame. They allowed Irina Slutskaya to skip the entire GP series, including Russian Nationals, and sent her to Worlds to compete. Did she pay her dues? NO! Why was she allowed to go to Worlds? Why is everyone only pointing fingers at the Americans? I know Irina was sick last year and tha't shame. BUT Sasha says she was injured, and Michelle has hinted to back problems. Unless the ISU knows something aobut Sasha and Michelle that we don't, I would say Debbie's in the wrong. They cut Irina slack, now do the same for the US.

First of all, the ISU has done nothing so far...I feel sure they will not impose any retroactive punishments on any of the skaters.

Second, it was not Irina who skipped now TWO GP series in a row, like Kwan. Irina was not only sick, she was fighting for her life. There was ample proof. Furthermore, she did not come to Worlds expecting to win, like Kwan, nor did her Federation send her there for that reason. She stated that she felt better when she could skate, and so they let her skate, probably in recognition of her considerable contribution to skating, including not only the medals, but the actual content of her skating, which includes being the first woman EVER to land a 3 lutz/3 loop (which she landed probably 4 times all told in competition) and probably because they had no one better at that time.

THe problem is the old system and the new system of competitions co-existing, and there needs to be a change, one way or the other. I personally prefer the GP Series because it offers us truly top level skating all year. I don't see the harm in a rule that says if you are not injured, and seeded, you MUST participate in the GP series to qualify for Worlds. If they would lose the GP FInals, that would be enough. GIve prize money instead for the most numbers or something, so that the rankings mean something. This would leave open the possilbity of an "up and comer" like Naomi Nari Nam qualifying at Nationals...it could still be up to the Federations who they send to Worlds...they would not be FORCED to send someone who had participated in the GP Series either.

I also miss the pros...they do not have to adhere to amateur rules, and I like the creativity of that...I'd rather have some pro federation with SOME rules, however, so that it is not entirely up to who is most powerful who wins. Boitano was right..the pro ams have killed pro skating.

[SkateFan123]

SkateFan...the other thing that has changed since 1994 is the massive expansion of TV channels and the expansion of those who have cable and sat. TV. With that many channels I do think there are some that will find it economically beneficial to air the skating. Who says it needs to air on network TV? In fact, network TV coverage is IMO part of the problem since you get such limited coverage. With ABC coverage you get a fraction of the skaters in the event, only Free Skates typically, and only some of the events or diciplines. With ESPN, Lifetime, or a number of other widely shown cable channels there is at times a bit more freedom for more extensive coverage, while still being profitable for both the ISU and the channel and thus good for skating (because there are a decent number of committed skating fans who will watch these broadcasts.) They can still have the big events on major TV at least partially in order to maximize the income, but to write off the power of cable TV in increasing the depth of coverage is a bit shortsighted. And frankly, it is better for the sport if they could have more complete coverage because I don't know many football or basketball broadcasts that only show the fourth quarter. Anyway, I expect the ratings are down because they were artificially high for a while due to the excitement of 1994 and that now they are more where they should be...the bubble burst as it were, but that doesn't mean we need to panic. We just need to look after skating in the best interest of it as a sport, not as an entertainment vehicle.

But I guess you are a bit different, I would tell Michelle or another skater what events she should skate in...if she wants to take part of the sport. Just as I'd tell a football team they had better play 16 regular season games and then the playoffs as according to the rules and not just have them choose to only play in the Super Bowl.

P.S. I've never said the ISU should enforce their rules this season, I agree that this should just be a sign of upcoming rules changes.
Excellent point about cable, satelite, etc. In fact, there are plans to have a cable skating channel. See http://www.theicechannel.com/ for details. I used to enjoy Canadian coverage of the entire event much better than American TV coverage. After all, I pay for the NFL ticket and the NHL ticket (excluding this year!) each year.

Football players are under contract for the entire season including preseason and post season play. Figure skaters have no contract until they accept invitations to compete or apply to compete depending on the event. That's the difference.

[Schmeck]

But how much $$$ does the ISU get for a GP event on ESPN, compared to network tv? Is it enough to subsidize speed skating? Because if it isn't it won't make Speedy happy...

[loveskating]

"Bondo, the financial windfall that was bestowed upon skating when TV ratings skyrocketed and when US TV could not get enough of the sport occurred after the knee-wacking incident in 1994. Although skating was successful prior to that, the TV coverage was very weak. After '94, the volumn of skating events increased possibly to the point of saturation. Michelle was was every Nationals, Worlds and Olympics since then. She was an alternate in 1994, and a team member in 1998, 2002. She doesn't make the sport but clearly her success is undesputed. I would never attempt to tell her or any other skater which events they should elect to skate."

How can you argue "saturation" for figure skating as a whole when there is NO ONE more SATURATING than Michelle Kwan, as the content of your post indicated without realizing it?

YOu cannot have it both ways!

I don't think its been saturation...its been a long line of vicious attacks and insults on skaters, and the pairs scandal 1t 2002 olympics convinced the American public that skating is corrupt.