Achieving balance

[fadedstardust]

So, I'm watching the NHK Trophy, and for the second time in the series I see Miki Ando half-a** her spiral section and dip forward (almost to the point of falling forward) on a spiral, in the middle of a 7 triple program. This makes me wonder: what in the world are her coaches thinking? I mean, if you're going to work 2-3 hours a day on weekdays and 6 hours a day on weekends (as the presentators said she does) you cannot take 10 minutes a day to not work on your stupid quad and do some spirals instead? Most ladies' spirals are absolutely appaling. Now, not everyone will have a Sasha spiral and that's fine, but even Jenny Kirk, who is a self-proclaimed ex-ballet dancer (and part of the US team who is usually known for having great spirals), has a really pathetic extension for an elite skater. I don't get why skaters worry 100 percent on their jumps and then let everything else fall to the wayside. Ando's sit spin is pretty horrible, too, hunched shoulders. But at least it's passable. If Ando were to do the spirals she does at world-class competitions on the preliminary spirals test, she'd fail it. It frustrates me to no end to see these kinds of things, how does everyone else feel about it? And while we are at it, why is it that 98 percent of elite women's skaters can't do a layback spin without the "dog peeing" leg position? Most don't even try anymore, they just tuck it right behind their spinning leg, which looks horrid. Where has the prettiness and elegance of ladies' skating gone? I think Eman excels at more of the women's moves than any of the current women do, and he's got more than one quad to worry about. Advancing this sport is fine, but if you make everything crap just to progress in one area, then it's not really progressing, is it? It's just bargaining.

[Schmeck]

The layback is not a natural position for a normal human body. It can be very difficult, and painful, to get the openess in the hips to get the leg in the prefered position, and the proper back stretch as well.

I don't ever like how laybacks look - they're just too unnatural-looking for me, even when done properly, ala Angela Nikodinov. The leg position is just bizarre to me, and the bent back makes me cringe. I'd rather see some great, low, fast sitspins, or scratch spins, etc.

About Ando's spirals - didn't watch NHK, but I agree, if you're doing 7 triples in a program, now's the time to work on the other elements a bit more.

[passion]

Yes, I agree that it is better to improve the basic moves than be fixated on the quad and let the rest slip. I am a bit confused, though. Are you supposed to pee like a dog or not supposed to?

[fadedstardust]

You're not, unless you're talking about a balletic dog, haha. The free leg is supposed to be completely in the air- and I've even SEEN Miki Ando do this in combo spins, just not in the actual layback, which kind of proves she can do it and just doesn't bother, she sticks her leg to the other and just bends her leg up and turned in. The leg's supposed to be turned out. Sasha Cohen and Angela Nikodinov are two women with good layback leg positions, if that gives you an idea. Now of course there is the argument that some people can't physically do it. But I mean, there was a time when Miki couldn't physically do a quad, either- ya work on it, at least a little. But it's alright because since this post I've read that Ando is going to work with Priscilla Hill, and you can be sure she will make Miki work on that stuff. I can't wait to see Miki a year from now. :)

[passion]

Hmm. I was specifically told by 2 different coaches NOT to pee like a dog, meaning, you're supposed to keep the knees close together. (It's probably a different technique, but not wrong). Personally, I think the most beautiful laybacks are the ones where the knee is way out to the side (ie. peeing like a dog). I know (to my limited understanding) that I am probably incapable of doing that because I have absolutely no turn out at all. Ina baurs, spread eagles are totally out of the question for me. I want a nice layback! :cry:

[hiliairyh]

Oh please, she is only 16. Spirals are over rated (go ahead with the eggs)

Tara, Sarah, and Kristi won the OGM without great spiral extension

[fadedstardust]

Well, if she is "only" 16, maybe she should work on her basics (spirals are on the very first freeskate test, and the second, so they are surely not overrated, and regarded as basic moves) and not worry so much about a quad, right?

All those other skaters you mentioned didn't have "Sasha" or "Nicole" extension, but they were fine, and they didn't miss a fall everytime they went for a spiral. I'm saying something many people have been saying, too, I just saw it glaringly in Ando: bigger jumps aren't worth the deterioration in actual SKATING. Gosh, you must have been real bored when figures were still around if you feel that way about spirals and other basics being "overrated". Don't forget what figure skating means and where it came from, just because someone can do a big showy jump. To me, THAT is the bore. Where's the skating?

[Azlynn]

Now of course there is the argument that some people can't physically do it. But I mean, there was a time when Miki couldn't physically do a quad, either- ya work on it, at least a little.

While I agree that many laybacks these days are just plain ugly, it IS physically impossible for most people to hit the Angela/Sasha position. It requires really open hips, AND a flexible back. No doubt it can be improved for many, but I'd hazard a guess that a lot ARE working on it with little improvement.

[Mariadonna]

Yes, alot of fans are very happy figures are gone unless you're a fan of yesteryears skating venues. Thank God for a Sasha who can do great laybacks and spins, and thank God for Arakawa and Ando who can actually jump. Continue on ladies with your bad selves. I love it!

[DancinDiva]

I agree, it is definitely physically impossible for some people to get that "textbook" layback position, myself included. Now, I have VERY open hips (18 years of ballet helps with that!), I can lift the leg very high towards the back, and I am capable of a very good backbend, but ask me to put it all together into a layback position and you better have my chiropracter on the phone ready to make an appointment! The combination of raising the leg and arching the back causes excruciating pain, and to me its not worth it to strive for that "exquisite" position that Dick and Peggy rave about. And just as I believe that skating should not be all about the jumps, I also don't think that it should be all about who hits the prettiest positions all the time. So Sasha has nice positions, she is not so consistent with her jumps all the time. Ando has the opposite problem, but I don't think she should be criticized any moreso than Cohen is.

My thoughts on the bygone days of figures...If we still had figures, Sasha Cohen, perfect layback or not, with or without those near-vertical spirals, would not be a medal threat at the world level, possibly not even at the National level. Tara Lipinski probably would not have been an Olympic Gold medalist at such an early age, but she might still be skating today.

Just some randon thoughts from my very tired brain.

[AxelAnnie22]

Oh please, she is only 16. Spirals are over rated (go ahead with the eggs)

Tara, Sarah, and Kristi won the OGM without great spiral extension
I would, respectfully, disagree with you about the extension of those three. Although none of the three have the gorgeous extension that Sasha or Nicole have, their free leg was extended to their physical max.....not hanging around wondering what to do. From hip through toe was one taught line. Although Sasha's extension is breathtaking, the stretch through the free leg and the line are as important.

I think the Asian skaters have a different take on how to enter the skating scene...and they have done a fabulous job of catching our attention with their power and jumps, and technical prowress. As long as they can enter and win with that, they will.

As to Ando, remember when Sarah first came on the scene (Tara too) what a jumper! The only problem was she would skate really fast from one jump to the next with almost no regard to what was inbetween. Part of learning the important stuff (and I consider the inbetweens, extension, stretch, ability to hold a move an to skate to the music a la Sasha and Johnny W. - to be the important part of skating) is desire. It is not as exciting to do a good spiral as it is to do a quad! - and these are young kids. And, it is not as much "bang for the buck".

Now, let us not be confused. If she is gonna get anywhere, she will have to bring the nuianced stuff to a level to match her technical (as have Shen and Zhao).

And, could I add the gortesquely ugly dropped knee on the way to a donought spin! Makes me nuts. That knee should (as in the spiral) be at least as high as the toe of the pointed boot.

I think CoP will sort a lot of this out.

[passion]

I think COP is a very good thing. It makes for a very balanced skater. Attention to quality of jumps (not just being able to land it), quality of spins, edges, artistry, musical interpretation, etc. So what if you can jump? Can the skater actually skate?

[isk84kalan]

:lol: Even as a preliminary skater...my coach STRESSES that our spirals are too our BEST perfection. I don't understand how people like that can NOT DO a proper spiral. :?? Like...COME ON!!!

[flippet]

And, could I add the gortesquely ugly dropped knee on the way to a donought spin! Makes me nuts. That knee should (as in the spiral) be at least as high as the toe of the pointed boot.
Oh, no kidding! That was one thing that was great about Tara--she reached straight back for the leg on the donut spin...no knee-dropping at all. To me, that shows that it can be done, and that at this level, dropping the knee is just lazy.

[hiliairyh]

I would, respectfully, disagree with you about the extension of those three.
Now, let us not be confused. If she is gonna get anywhere, she will have to bring the nuianced stuff to a level to match her technical (as have Shen and Zhao).



We will have to diagree on this one, I love Tara, Kristi and Sarah, but don't think they have great extension on their spirals, and IMO spirals are overrated. Ando is only 16, and very motivated, if she is healthy I anticipated her competing in olympics 2010.

[hiliairyh]

:lol: Even as a preliminary skater...my coach STRESSES that our spirals are too our BEST perfection. I don't understand how people like that can NOT DO a proper spiral. :?? Like...COME ON!!!

And how are your quad sals?? ;)

[dbny]

Spirals are on the Pre-Preliminary, Preliminary, Novice, and Senior moves tests, and can cause a failure on any of those tests. The Senior spiral pattern is totally awe inspiring. Most elite skaters do beautiful spirals, but do not hold them long enough, which can make even fabulous extension seem like something just thrown in.

hiliairyh, if you think spirals are overrated, you should try one.

[fadedstardust]

And how are your quad sals?? ;)

...A preliminary skater doesn't need and shouldn't even have to try a quad jump. A senior lady, however, is another story. There is a reason why moves in the field test of a certain level must be taken BEFORE a freestyle test of that same level. This means the moves must be mastered before the jumps/spins. This means spirals are more important to master than quad jumps (in a perfect world, not in actuality...sadly) and it means that one should probably be expected to master all their moves in the field before they ever land their first quad. I am not even talking about Ando's extension- which, yes, I'm sure she would have more of if she worked on it even 1/3 as long as she does on jumps, but I'm talking about not falling forward on a simple step almost everytime she goes for it. I'm talking about holding a basic edge and showing mastery over it. That is all. It's not Ando in particular. It's not spirals in particular. That particular instance just illustrates what others as well as I have been saying about jumps taking over and making the rest of the skating sub-par, and it not being a good thing. Again, COP will help that, and Priscilla Hill will help Ando. What I wonder, though, is, how the tests are structured in Japan. Does anyone know? Are there MITF tests, how does it work over there? Maybe that's an explanation, too. If they don't make them do moves, or don't emphasize them, then it's not any one skater's fault. But to answer hiliairyh's remark- you should master spirals before quads, not the other way around, I think that pretty much should have gone without saying. And as far as the constant argument of Ando being "only 16", well yeah, but being "only 16" would excuse her MORE of not yet landing quad jumps than it would of not being able to do a MITF. What does being 16 years old have to do with spirals? Nothing. I don't see how being young excuses sloppy skating when you're at the World level.

I totally thought I'd worked out my frustration over this by now, but that
post rekindled the fire. I'm sorry for the long rant, everyone. :halo:

[doubletoe]

You're not, unless you're talking about a balletic dog, haha. The free leg is supposed to be completely in the air- and I've even SEEN Miki Ando do this in combo spins, just not in the actual layback, which kind of proves she can do it and just doesn't bother, she sticks her leg to the other and just bends her leg up and turned in. The leg's supposed to be turned out. Sasha Cohen and Angela Nikodinov are two women with good layback leg positions, if that gives you an idea.

I think maybe someone should have defined what they meant by the "peeing dog" position. I have always used that expression to describe the position in which the free leg is bent, turned out, and held parallel to the ice (the position Angela N. uses on hers). So from what you are describing, the "peeing dog" position IS the correct free leg position.

[doubletoe]

Well, if she is "only" 16, maybe she should work on her basics (spirals are on the very first freeskate test, and the second, so they are surely not overrated, and regarded as basic moves) and not worry so much about a quad, right?

All those other skaters you mentioned didn't have "Sasha" or "Nicole" extension, but they were fine, and they didn't miss a fall everytime they went for a spiral. I'm saying something many people have been saying, too, I just saw it glaringly in Ando: bigger jumps aren't worth the deterioration in actual SKATING.

If you look at the COP, you'll see that the jumps Miki does are worth a lot more than any spiral Sasha or Irina could do. If that weren't the case, she wouldn't be medaling in these world class competitions and she wouldn't be the Japanese national champion. Would you spend your precious practice time on your spiral when the same amount of time spent on your 3lutz-3loop is what will get you onto the podium? Just like Michelle Kwan, Miki will focus more on her artistry when her jumping starts to plateau. And by the way, at Cup of China, she finally managed to get through that change of edge on her spiral without losing control. ;)

[fadedstardust]

Yeah I think I miscommunicated about the peeing dog thing- I meant turned in and attached to the spinning leg, but I guess that wouldn't be the accurate picture to paint because I guess a peeing dog doesn't do that. I don't watch dogs pee very often though so I think I will have to pay closer attention to this next time. ;)

And I don't spend as much time on spirals as I do on triples (although I'm injured right now so I have plenty more time to work on MITF than I'd like to...) but I do work on them every single day, and it's something I strongly believe in. I know it doesn't score as many points, but everything isn't always about more points. I mean points are nice, most people who skate obviously would like to win things so points are needed, but, it doesn't take that much time to clean up something simple like that. Glad she did for Cup of China- I've yet to watch my tape of it so perhaps I will be appeased. ;)

[loveskating]

I think Ando will work on lots of things, just as Arakawa has...she has great potential, and among them would be her spirals.

However the rules are what they are, and she is going to get a lot of points for those jumps, and she should, since everyone skates to the same rules.

[Sk8n Mama]

I think the Japanese pushed jumping early because that's where the sport was headed. They're definitely going to have to work very hard on the 'in between' and spins. It was the difference at SC. Phaneuf scored lower for jumps but on the spins, the Japanese skater scored a 1 for quality on all of her spins and Phaneuf a 3. CoP will kill and unbalanced program and those girls are going to have to put in some spin time and splits practice off-ice.

[Mulch]

Even more frustrating is not just the fact her spiral is pathetic, and she just consentrates on the jumps, is that she does this under the new system that will reward her from having things like a great spiral! Her "talent" so-to-speak is wasted on me. Now, I have taken into consideration that she could and probably will improve. Remember Kwan? Anywho, that's my say.

[Mariadonna]

Kwan's laybacks and spins are not good at all and she has no 3/3's. What can she do under the new system. All her wins were under the old system.

[fadedstardust]

I think what Mulch meant was that Kwan came on the scene as an immature 12 (was it 12?) year old with a 90 degree spiral and she improved her in-between skating quality so much that it became her trademark, and for a while there, her spiral was pretty much the "image" of figure skating. You saw it everywhere. I think that's what Mulch meant in comparing them- and I do agree. I just think emphasis needs to be put on the whole package.

[Blosmbubbs]

I do agree that Kwan doesn't have the best spins or stretch in her skating, I wish she would improve that. I wonder if she does any ballet or other kind of dance. I doubt that most skaters do.

[manleywoman]

So from what you are describing, the "peeing dog" position IS the correct free leg position.

It's the correct FREE LEG position, but not the correct HIP position. My coach describes it this way:

The peeing-on-a-fire-hydrant position is when the knee and foot are properly turned out, but the hips and butt are not tucked completely under and forward to give the overll profile of the layback that nice arc, or C shape. So instead the hips and butt are still behind you even if you're leaning backwards from the waist up, and it looks like you're breaking at the waist.

Kind of like if you are mounting a motorcycle or a bike: your hips and legs are turned out as you lift the leg to get the leg over the bike seat, but your hips and butt are sticking out behind you instead of being thrust forwards.

make sense?

So I don't consider those laybacks done by Maria Butyrskaya or Victoria Volchkova where their knees are together and their free leg is bent from the knee straight back into space to be in the "peeing" category. Those are just bad technique.

[fadedstardust]

Yeah, it's not the peeing dog position. I'm now officially naming those bad laybacks Manley described as the "cheesy 70's love movie kiss leg kick" position, unless someone comes up with something shorter. ;)

[_back_layback_]

And, could I add the gortesquely ugly dropped knee on the way to a donought spin! Makes me nuts. That knee should (as in the spiral) be at least as high as the toe of the pointed boot.


This is very hard to do, as you cannot see youself in that position. It's also pretty painful :PWhen my spin coached asked me to show her the doughnut spin, and was amazed that i didn't drop the knee! 8O The only way to learn this is to have learned it like that from the beginning. When you are spinning, you are searching for your foot, and that is the more natural position. Once you find your foot, in that position, you don't see any need to change it. Afterall, why change something that works? And, as I said before, you cannot see what you look like. The first day when I was learning a spin that required you to grab the leg in the same way (not the doughnut) my coach made sure I didn't do that. So, since the age of 8 i've been doing it that way. Old habits are hard to break afterall, its best to nip these things in the bud. ;) 8-)