ISU ultimatum for competitors

[icedancer2]

I found this over at skateweb:

http://www.frogsonice.com/skateweb/articles/isu-letter-592.pdf

Maybe putting some pressure on some of our favorites to skate in competitions that have been set up for them?

I'm sure this will start some discussion here...

[evereg]

ITA, Bondo.

[mikey]

I agree- it needs to be an all-or-nothing mentality... If skaters want the benefits that come with the GP (competition, TV exposure, prize money, judges' feedback, etc), they should commit to it. If they don't need any of those things, then maybe the GP series has outlived its usefulness, and the various events should go back to being independent competitions.

This has been discussed to death elsewhere, but it sure looks bad when so many top skaters pull out of the GP series and then go on to participate in various cheesefests and smaller events... It's a slap in the ISU's face, and you can't blame them for striking back.

In the long run though, it will probably result in little more than skaters getting more creative with getting notes from their doctors excusing them from the series...

Love the drama though 8-)

[pairs_guy]

ITA, especially if you have skaters slatted to skate an event and they don't decide to go. For example if people paid to go see Skate Canada this year, well when tickets first went on sale they were saying Evgeny Plushenko and Michelle Kwan were supposed to compete. It really sucks if your a fan of one of these two and you wanted to watch them skate so you bought tickets. If a skater has entered an event they should compete it unless of course they are injured. Good job ISU!!

[LittleBitSk8er]

I do not blame them, but then the ISU needs to recognize that the skaters are hurting themselves because the ISU does not cap the total number of jumps a skater may perform in a program. With the new judging system-taking place, I hope to see better-balanced programs from all the skaters. Am I the only one who does not see any skater in the USFSA envelopes who have a complete well-balanced program? This is a big problem I hope we soon get answers to. How many young skaters do we each know with some type of back problem, or who have experienced a stress fracture? I am sure the problem is not just in the states but everywhere. The ISU has the ability to correct this increasing health problem for all skaters, by placing equal importance on edges, spins etc.

OK, I will get off my soap box now. ;)

[2sk8]

A couple of thoughts - Plush let the ISU know well in advance that he was only doing COR, Kwan was last minute - so perhaps better to not compare the 2 (also, cohen who prepared less than should have this summer (her own words) then "old" injury re-occurs - not really the same. (So, the ISU lashes out at Plush for a show even though he has been one of the most consistent skaters at Grand Prix events?)
Maybe the GP has outlived its usefulness - & comparing it to PGA or tennis is a good example of that. ISU cut prize money this year, being at the top in this sport doesn't get you anywhere near the cash PGA or tennis does - competitions, endorsements, etc. It's folly to expect a skater to give up current money "for the long-term good of the ISU" - nice in theory, but not realistic. Like most athletes, these folks need to make a living & their time frame for doing so is short. So, maybe "all or nothing" should mean "nothing" - that is, the ISU lets the skaters make economic choices (oh, but that would be bad for the ISU!) IF the ISU can't provide opportunities more like the PGA.
I know, none of this is likely to happen & it would be good to see the top skaters at these events - but that doesn't mean it's all the fault of the skaters, who should just go along with what works for the ISU!

[Tapper]

I mean, you don't often see PGA golfers or something hold out of multiple competitions in order to play throwaway local tournaments or something like that. If top atheletes are putting shows or non-counting competitions ahead of true competitions, it reinforces the "not a sport" image of skating and hurts skating as a whole.

I think the incentive is different.

PGA... Professional Golfers... PGA tour is where the money is and it would seem to me that going to a "throwaway local tournament" instead of a PGA event would not be a very wise business move. But, no one would look scornfully at a professional golfer for choosing to play in a local tournament where there's little or no prize money... they might think he/she is CRAZY NUTSO for not going for the money ("well gee, George, you have a chance to make a small fortune in this game and you throw that away so you can play at the course in your home town? whadaya gone nutso dude?"), but it's a profession, not an amateur competition, and the professional can do whatever he wants... his life, his career, his money to win or lose. Right?

Just curious, what incentive is there for amateur athletes to compete in the GP series?

[SkateFan123]

I think the letter is reasonable. They aren't telling people to skate injured or anything. They are simply saying, if you are going to cut competitions from your schedule, it is better to make the GP events a higher priority than shows or fluff competitions.

I've basically been saying this for three years. I'm glad they are making an issue of it because it goes to the credibility of the sport. I mean, you don't often see PGA golfers or something hold out of multiple competitions in order to play throwaway local tournaments or something like that. If top atheletes are putting shows or non-counting competitions ahead of true competitions, it reinforces the "not a sport" image of skating and hurts skating as a whole.
Bondo, you surprised me with your answer. I totally am taken by surprise that your support this.

In America, we get to choose where we work. For skaters, events are their work. If they choose an easier and less demanding fluff event because it pays better than the ISU events this year, so what?

Since the ISU cut it's funding skaters must do more fluff and shows, not less, to pay their bills. They can't do it all! I don't blame any skater for pulling out for any reason. Despite not seeing who I wanted to see when I went to Skate America and Skate Canada this year, I have always known that when I go to an event it's a crap shoot as to who will actually skate at a given event.

And Tiger Woods did pass on a golf event recently while honeymooning. He could have scheduled his wedding or honeymoon at a different time but made a choose. It was his choice to make since it affects his income and career. No one is suggesting that he be banned from future events.

If the ISU wants top skaters to skate, they have to pay them better than fluff event pay. By the way, this year if skaters are invited to the Exhibition and they don't skate, they lose their prize money!

That letter states that the ISU Medical Advisor must ok a skater's withdraw for injury. What if he, like previous posters, decides that back pain without physical evidence of damage is not a valid injury? What if he decides that it's ok to skate with a fever despite the high risk of losing balance during a spin or jump? Who's going to pay a skater if that skater is further injured in that case? We all know that ISU officials are in Cinquanta's pocket and do what he wants.

What a dictator the ISU has become. All this does is provide more reasons for another federation, one that only works with figure skating, be formed and validated to protect the rights of all figure skaters.

The ISU's problem is that since they fixed the wrong problem with their new scoring system and made cheating judges less likely to be uncovered, they waned fan support for the sport. As a result of lower tv viewership, the ISU new contract is less than great which gives the ISU less money. The ISU should realize that this cycle will continue until they address the real problem.

Since when is banning a skater for not wanting to skate an event for whatever reason ok but not banning cheating judges acceptible?

[missflick]

www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20041112/SKATE12/TPSports/TopStories

[Arsenette]

I'm a bit mixed with this to begin with. The GP circuit is still new compared to the history of the sport. Maybe 10 years of 120 years? Figure skating has survived as a sport for a heck of a lot longer.. before Television and it has survived even recently. My biggest gripe about the ISU has been about money involved. Quite frankly I'm happy some of the big names are not around so I get a chance to see skaters I've never even heard of (partially because their "coveted" event only shows 3-5 skaters (of their choice) even though the event has 15 skaters per discipline :roll:

This season has afforded us the opportunity to create more stars. I mean really, Angela Nikodinov and Cynthia Phaneuf are now champions. (oops sorry if it's a spoiler :halo: ) but seriously.. if the "named" skaters are there we would not see them. Another thing is to get rid of the Fluff competitions altogether. THEY serve no purpose. Why be hipocritical in creating an event like that where they show up to do one program that counts for nothing and then criticize them for not showing up to a week event in a poorly televised competition? In the US - the GP circuit is not even shown on Free for Air television. For all intents and purposes Figure Skating is in a lockout with Hockey for the people that don't follow the sport.

My suggestion to the ISU is get rid of the Fluff competitions (like the one in December) and just have one in April AFTER the competition if they must have one at all. Quite frankly they serve no purpose and they don't even count in world rankings (as the GP circuit does). Take away the "temptation" if that's what they think it is instead of sanctioning the skaters for exercising their right to not compete. IF the GP circuit was a pre-qualifier for worlds.. then that's another story entirely BUT it is not. They are more worried that they lose money because their named skaters are not there because it makes them look bad.

[Kemy]

I actually agree with what the ISU has decided, BUT not for this year. It's entirely unfair to punish someone for something that was allowed before. It's like a store manager saying, "Sure you can have that shirt for free!" and then after you leave, send the cops after you because he realizes that he just lost money and changed his mind.

They should have stated their position in response to the first person pulling out. The way they're doing it now makes them seem money-grubbing because they're only doing it because of their TV contracts.

[Sk8n Mama]

Really, as far as the ISU is concerned, it's not worth it to keep holding the Grand Prix if the top skaters all withdraw. It just seems like a few too many of the top skaters are injured. Skating just isn't usually that injury-plagued.

[Oracle]

The "fluff" competitions are only sanctioned by the ISU. The USFSA puts them on & signs the paychecks. Originally, they were introduced to help our young, amateur skaters learn from our pro skaters how to connect with audiences & develop interesting choreography. (Our = USA). They help pay for training & travel expenses. Personally, I prefer them to be held exclusively for US skaters. It's US $ that generate the ticket sales & TV sales. They are fun to watch & one of my favorite fluff events was held a few years ago with young US skaters teamed with older US skaters. One year Kwan & Bradley won. As to GP competitions , SkateAmerica, Skate Canada, NHK, Trophee Lalique, Germany & even England were holding their competitions back in the early 80's, long before the GP was put together so that the ISU could cash in & collect a share of the revenues. (The one from England was Skate Electric, as good as any comp.) Too many of you base your opinions on the last 10 years rather than searching out the history & backgrounds of these events.

[Skatewind]

SkateFan, while Americans may get to choose where they work, if they choose to work for a specific person, that person can tell them when they should work if they are to work for them. I think the ISU is perfectly within its rights to say if you want to compete in our major events, you'll have to compete in the GP series.
(Not SkateFan, but) It will be interesting to see what will happen should any athlete decide to challenge this interpretation, since GP Series is basically something invitational while Worlds is based on qualifying results. Entering a competition where you are qualified for a placement is different than working a job for the ISU, so it seems like it could be a grey area without further rule changes that would make GP part of the qualifying process. The way it stands now seems heavy handed to me.

[dr.frog]

The "fluff" competitions are only sanctioned by the ISU. The USFSA puts them on & signs the paychecks. Originally, they were introduced to help our young, amateur skaters learn from our pro skaters how to connect with audiences & develop interesting choreography.

No, originally the cheesefests were introduced as a means of making more money for the USFSA by selling these events to ABC. The main reason for paying the skaters appearance fees or prize money is to make sure they show up and create a marketable TV property for ABC, not so much out of the USFSA's generous impulses towards funding their skating. The original cheesefests (going back to fall 1992) were pro-ams because ABC thought that the pro skaters and interpretive free skate format would bring in the ratings at that time. It's all about $$$$.

[doubletoe]

Since when is banning a skater for not wanting to skate an event for whatever reason ok but not banning cheating judges acceptible?

Good point! But I still think the letter was reasonable. The question is how it will be enforced, and nobody knows that yet. If the ISU doctor is reasonable and errs on the side of caution, then it will just keep skaters adhering to rules they've already agreed to. If the ISU doctor is unreasonable, well, of course that will be another story.

Meanwhile, I think it would be a good idea to reduce the number of Grand Prix events and try to increase TV viewership and ad rates for each one so that they can afford to pay the skaters more for each competition.

[WeBeEducated]

I think the letter is reasonable. They aren't telling people to skate injured or anything. They are simply saying, if you are going to cut competitions from your schedule, it is better to make the GP events a higher priority than shows or fluff competitions.

I've basically been saying this for three years. I'm glad they are making an issue of it because it goes to the credibility of the sport. I mean, you don't often see PGA golfers or something hold out of multiple competitions in order to play throwaway local tournaments or something like that. If top atheletes are putting shows or non-counting competitions ahead of true competitions, it reinforces the "not a sport" image of skating and hurts skating as a whole.


I agree. What happened to the days when top skaters were thrilled to participate in a GP? I do understand though that the money for the GP events is less than it used to be, right?
Is that the issue?

[nyskatefan]

This letter makes no sense in relation to this season. If the ISU wants to make it a requirement that a skater do the GP series if he/she wants to compete at Worlds/Olys, then he should be making his case for next season ... and make the appropriate rule changes.
But what I really wish is that he would address the reasons why so many skaters are pulling out of their events. I am sure with some good honest discussion (by officials and skaters) they could come up with a more skater-friendly GP series that would encourage participation.

[dr.frog]

I agree. What happened to the days when top skaters were thrilled to participate in a GP?

There's a difference between participating in *a* GP, and having to do two or three events plus the final, possibly all on different continents, within a span of less than two months, and with the final less than a month before most countries' national championships, as well. All that travel can be very wearing on a skater. Look at Jeff Buttle last year -- got sick at his last Grand Prix event in Japan, had to pull out of the final, bombed at nationals, didn't make the world team. Skaters don't want to wear themselves out on events that don't really matter, and no, the GP events don't really matter. In the long term, nobody remembers who is Skate America or NHK champion, but national titles and medals at worlds are things skaters do care about.

[AxelAnnie22]

"However, both Kwan and Cohen have been confirmed for a U.S. invitational event, the Marshalls World Cup of Skating on Dec. 3 in Auburn Hills, Mich., with total prize money of $200,000 (all figures U.S.). Kwan won an earlier event on Oct. 1, winning $50,000, three weeks before Skate America."If they were recently confirmed, I will be furious. Sasha (who I adore) only pulled out of CoC 2 weeks ago. Neither of these women need the money. I don't want to watch a sport which such poor sportsmen participating.

[HSF]

I think a little bit of historical data on the GP Series is needed here.

SA, SC, etc. were international events hosted for many years by those countries and had no connection to each other. In 95, the ISU realized with the new interest in figure skating that it had an opportunity to expand and capitalize on TV coverage of skating. It got 6 countries to join together to form a competition called “Skate International.” This met with such success that in 97 they changed the name to the “Grand Prix Series” and offered prize money to the skaters. I would like to say the prize money was offered as a reward to the skaters but really feel it was an attempt to keep skaters from turning pro. Back in that time frame there were many opportunities for pros to make money and very few for elligibles.

Two of the top contenders during 95-97 were Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen. During that time frame they upped the technical difficulties to 6-7 triples per free skate. This became the standard rather than the exception.

Then in 99 the ISU lost its mind. They added a requirement that the single skaters competing in the GPF had to perform two different free skates. That was supposed to enhance TV ratings but the funny thing was TV never showed both free skates. Fortunately, that was finally dropped.

What we are seeing now is the toll the frantic schedule between October and January is taking on the skaters. In addition, the new requirements of COP are not to be taken lightly. Gone are the days when a 6-7 jump program with “artistry” was the goal. Now a skater must be able to pull off a 6-7 jump program AND be able to perform at level 2 or 3 for all connecting and in-between moves. Love him or hate him, Dick Button has always said that to do a quality spin, layback, or spiral is as demanding as doing a triple.
No wonder we are seeing all these injuries/withdrawals.

The major $’s for ISU came from the USA and ABC-TV. The fact that no one has been able to capture the attention of the “casual” viewers other than Michelle Kwan does present a problem. Sasha needs to have another breakthrough season.

I have no sympathy for the ISU and think they need to find another scapegoat other than Michelle Kwan. I don’t think the new “rules” are aimed at anyone other than Michelle—just as they have been in the past. Obviously they are not aimed at Plushenko who they allowed to skate a Cup of Russia only . . . but that is a whole ‘nuther story.

But what I wanted to point out is that the GP Series has not been around that long. Since its addition to the skating calendar, injuries to the top skaters have soared. Maybe something has to be done to change the skating calendar and spread the competitions over a longer period of time?

Some changes are needed . . .

[Tamwheel]

Two of the top contenders during 95-97 were Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen. During that time frame they upped the technical difficulties to 6-7 triples per free skate. This became the standard rather than the exception.

Gone are the days when a 6-7 jump program with “artistry” was the goal. Now a skater must be able to pull off a 6-7 jump program AND be able to perform at level 2 or 3 for all connecting and in-between moves.


Actually the big difference is the approach the skaters have taken to the GP series. 6-7 triples were the norm for worlds from 1989 onward, the exceptions being 1990, 1993, and 1995 when worlds was won with 5 or less. The GP series such as Skate America and Trophee Lalique were viewed as dress rehearsals: skaters were neither expected nor performed anywhere near what they would peak at for worlds, it was merely tuning events. Skaters were trained to peak as the season went along. 3-5 triples were average.

Then a skater named Michelle Kwan came along coincidentally at the same time the GP structure was implemented in an effort to increase public interest in the otherwise throwaway events. Kwan blew away her competitions by performing PERFECT 7 triple programs at virtually every event she went to from Skate America to Worlds. The same was not true of her competitors, Chen Lu always peaked at worlds and in particular had a disastrous 1995-6 season and completely bombed at the final, only being perfect ONCE the entire season and that was at worlds. Tara Lipinski wasn't nearly as stellar at Skate America either, I don't think she ever won it although she repeated the Grand Prix Final twice. Kwan used these competitions as a springboard to her becoming the dominant female skater. Of course, the pressure was now on the skaters to perform at a very high level THROUGHOUT the season because every competition would point them to another competition if they placed high enough.

One could look at Michelle though as a counter-example and say it hasn't produced any career-threatening injuries in her case. There has never been a female skater who performed at such a routinely high level for so many times. I think Kristi Yamaguchi fell twice at both Skate America and Trophee Lalique on her way to the olympics. Michelle may be more structurally sound than the others or may be training the right way which has kept her competitive. Maybe both. But without the top skaters, the Grand Prix series is quite frankly deadly boring.

[leo]

What an interesting topic. I agree with the ISU letter outlining the importance of competing in the GP series. If we only had the fluff shows on TV then, of course, the "pretty" skaters would always take home the cash. Being in a position to see all Canadian TV and U.S. TV skating shows, it is very obvious that the Canadian networks cover the world events and the US simply shows their skaters, who, as you can see, are not willing to participate if the prize money isn't high enough.

If you ever watch the shows "The U.S. against the World Team", etc., the U.S. usually wins. If the CoP system was being used, they wouldn't even qualify. Serious skating fans want to see good skating, not just the pretty stuff. I seriously doubt that Michelle would win a GP event unless she changes her programs to make her more competitive. Pretty to look at, BUT..........

Make it so that if you don't compete in the G.P. series, you don't got to Worlds, or the Olympics. Let's get the quality back.

[prunes89]

Leo, you obviously didn't watch Skate America, or Skate Canada if you dont think Michelle could win a GP event.
I think one of the reasons MK might not want to participate in the GP series is the judges cheat at the GPF. I remember one year, Michelle won the SP, the first LP and then Irina landed two 3/3's in the second LP and this gave her the overall gold. I think her 3/3's were nice, but they came to a complete stand still on the ice. Then there was another GPF when Irina was just horrible compared to Michelle and Sarah Hughes, but Irina won. The placements were ridiculous! Judges had her in either 1st or 3rd place. No 2nd place at all. Total cheating. Sarah should've won that year, not Irina.
It's no wonder Michelle doesn't want to put herself through that again. She doesn't owe them anything.
I remember being shocked and pleased when Sasha beat Irina at GPF. I never thought they'd LET Irina have anything other than gold there. I really like Irina, but she has been given her fair share of "gifts" in skating.
Irina owns the GPF and if she makes it there this year, the title will be hers.
I think the skating federation can only blame themselves for certain skaters not wanting to do GPF. Even Plushy was cheated last year!! Don't get me started :frus:

[Tamwheel]

Irina owns the GPF and if she makes it there this year, the title will be hers.
:

???

I doubt Irina could win another world medal let alone the GPF. She's basically finished.

[valuvsmk]

???

I doubt Irina could win another world medal let alone the GPF. She's basically finished.

You might be interested in the latest spoilers on various boards.

[HSF]

Gosh it's funny how different people watching the same event can come up with such different conclusions.

prunes89, I thought Irina's performance where she came from behind to win the GPF was one of the most exciting skates ever. They were using a format where the skaters in 1st and 2nd place competed for who would end up in first and the skaters in 3rd and 4th place competed to see who would end up in 3rd and would be on the podium. Irina was in 2nd and had nothing to lose so she just let it all out and went for everything. She very much deserved the win.

I don't think Michelle Kwan has any concerns about being judged fairly by ISU judges. She has done very well under their scoring for a lot of years. I'm sure that thought didn't play a part in her decision not to do the GP Series this year.

[John Q]

Let's be realistic here. The only two Grand Prix events that make money are Skate America and Skate Canada. The problem is that the North American market is the strongest monetarily but skating is ruled in Europe and Asia. Since Worlds cannot be in North America every year then it is up to the 2 GP's to make up for the losses, and as such the biggest North American names (USA's top women) need to show up at these events.

Another thing since when is an event that pays 50,000 dollars fluff? Wouldn't an event that only pays the top three performers and less than 20,000 be considered more "fluff"??

[SkateFan123]

Importance in skating has nothing to do with money. Athletes don't get paid by the IOC when they win a medal, yet that is the top prize. A fluff is a fluff because it is one program typically or unorthodox programs, and because it doesn't count towards anything...doesn't qualify you for Nationals/Worlds, doesn't give you points towards a ranking.

One other thing...it seems to me non-elite skaters, and non-senior skaters have more COMPETITIONS than do the top skaters since there are numerous tiny regional competitions. They don't seem to be overwhelmed to the point of injury by it.
Actually, since 1984, the IOC has been giving medalists prize money. The recent summer games yielded $25,000 for a gold, $15,000 for a silver, and $10,000 for the bronze. Many federations also give money to medalists too.

[Mariadonna]

I hope and believe that the ISU letter was directed at Michelle. I'm tired of her saying she doesn't know and hasn't decided yet. Maybe this will help her decide. I do think though that the ISU should have sent the letter this summer when the evasive answers started appearing. Good for the ISU. I'm proud of them. I also love the CoP and think if a skater is unable to do good laybacks and spins, they should not be called elite in the first place. Most sports have dangers to them. Skaters should be aware going into the sport as to what dangers they may encounter. I do not want to watch a ballet. If a skater wants to skate totally safe then let them go back to the JR's. Thank You Speedy and God Bless You.

[3ggi3]

I hope and believe that the ISU letter was directed at Michelle. ... I do not want to watch a ballet. If a skater wants to skate totally safe then let them go back to the JR's. Thank You Speedy and God Bless You.

Wow, some angst towards Michelle Kwan, I see.
I'm sure Michelle Kwan doesn't care about what you want to watch.
She skates for herself, not for ridiculously critical skating "fans" like yourself.

[Mariadonna]

You're right. Michelle doesn't have to care what I think but she does have to care what the ISU thinks, according to that letter. LoL

[nyskatefan]

"That letter" is going absolutely nowhere this season. If he wants to make rule changes during the off season, that's fine ... then all the skaters will evaluate the situation and make their decisions.

[Skatewind]

I hope and believe that the ISU letter was directed at Michelle. I'm tired of her saying she doesn't know and hasn't decided yet.
If the letter is directed to MK, then it's certainly bad form for the ISU to admonish all the skaters rather than write her a letter directly. I don't care for the last minute withdrawals either, but they should conduct their business in a more direct manner.

[Lise]

The letter was directed to all seeded skaters that withdrew from the Gp this season due to injury, but yet competing at cheesefests and other competitions. Plushy was scheduled for 2 events but pulled because of injury. He can't be too injured if he's still performing quads and axels in lesser competitions and shows. He is pending litigation from 1 show because he pulled at the last minute because the ISU refused to sanction the show. It will be interesting to see what will happen with the cheesefest in December.

I feel no sympathy for Michelle Kwan-the only reason she withdrew was because she wanted time to prepare for Nats. What gives?? All skaters need to prepare for Nationals irregardless if they are on the GP list. IMO, if you are too injured to compete on the GP, you shouldn't be doing shows or cheesefests. National championships and Worlds are both ISU sanctioned (since federations belong to the ISU) and skaters, irregardless of who they are, should follow the rules. I strongly beleive that special priviledges should not be given to anyone.

OTOH, if all these skaters are banned from Worlds and Olympics, it could bring pro skating back from the dead!

[SkateFan123]

The letter was directed to all seeded skaters that withdrew from the Gp this season due to injury, but yet competing at cheesefests and other competitions. Plushy was scheduled for 2 events but pulled because of injury. He can't be too injured if he's still performing quads and axels in lesser competitions and shows. He is pending litigation from 1 show because he pulled at the last minute because the ISU refused to sanction the show. It will be interesting to see what will happen with the cheesefest in December.

I feel no sympathy for Michelle Kwan-the only reason she withdrew was because she wanted time to prepare for Nats. What gives?? All skaters need to prepare for Nationals irregardless if they are on the GP list. IMO, if you are too injured to compete on the GP, you shouldn't be doing shows or cheesefests. National championships and Worlds are both ISU sanctioned (since federations belong to the ISU) and skaters, irregardless of who they are, should follow the rules. I strongly beleive that special priviledges should not be given to anyone.

OTOH, if all these skaters are banned from Worlds and Olympics, it could bring pro skating back from the dead!
The letter is meaningless for this season. The GP events are not qualifiers for Worlds. The Federations control their own qualifiers for Worlds. I seriously doubt that any Federation will support that sort of change.

MK pulled out due to injury and unless you are her doctor and have examined her, how can you say she was not injured at that time?

Rag on the cheesefests all you want but the concept of the GP is nothing more than another form of sanctioned cheesefest that was developed to take advantage of TV contracts. Now that contracts are not as financially beneficial as they were, interest is down from fans and skaters.

[nyskatefan]

I just want to clear up a few details. Michelle never indicated that injury was the reason for her not doing the GP. She stated that she decided to do things the way she had last season because it was working out well for her. I believe it was Bev Smith who remarked in her article that MK pulled out because of the back problem, but I don't remember Michelle ever stating that.

Also ... let's keep in mind that MK is not asking for anyone's sympathy. She doesn't need it, nor do I think she would want it. Whatever the rules are, she will either abide by them or not compete. Very simple.
Clearly this letter from the ISU is different from how they have operated the past few years. If and when they make the GP a qualifier for Worlds/Olympics ... then each individual skater can assess the situation and make their own decision. Until then, letters like this are rather pointless.

[Rapt2Go]

If and when they make the GP a qualifier for Worlds/Olympics ... then each individual skater can assess the situation and make their own decision. Until then, letters like this are rather pointless.

Which brings up a something that makes me scratch my head.... So what happens to skaters from say , Mexico, who are not invited to the GP Series? Do they not get to skate at Worlds? How *can* they reasonably make such a requirement? Or will this requirement only apply to big name sakters that draw big audiences and $$ in the ISU pocket?

Also, what would happen if a "seeded" skater just declined the invitation initially? Would they then not be allowed to skate at Worlds? The way the letter is worded it seems like they are trying to lay down the law about skaters who pull out. Well, what if they never accepted in the first place? Is it OK to go to Worlds then?

Are these seeded skaters contractually obligated to the ISU? Are they on their payroll or something? I am confused how the ISU has the authority to make such claims against seeded skaters only.

Anyone know what the WSF is commenting about this?

[Arsenette]

YEAY Rapt2Go actually gets it :)

This is an attempt by the ISU to force skaters via their National Federations MID season to somehow get results. Quite frankly the ISU is treading in territory that is quite dangerous. They do not chose the skaters involved - the host countries of that event do with the guideline to invite skaters who placed high in Worlds (thus "seeded"). That is not a "requirement" that is a "priviledge". SO yes they are targetting only a small amount of skaters and threatening them with something that conflicts with the ISU Charter. The ISU has not right to ban a skater from entering Worlds or Olympics. They have not commited a crime, they were not found to be using drugs. So basically it's blackmail right now.

[Mariadonna]

Say what you will but I'm enjoying this whole thing. I'm thrilled that the ISU is in charge and not some idol worshiping fans. Thank God.

[Rapt2Go]

Say what you will but I'm enjoying this whole thing. I'm thrilled that the ISU is in charge and not some idol worshiping fans. Thank God.


????????

I am just trying to understand how this mandate can apply to a very small percentage of skaters that will attend Worlds, i.e. only the seeded skaters invited to the GP who accepted an invitation and then pulled out. To me, that seems discrimanatory not to mention exploitative.

I admit I do not know much about the ISU charter.

So, can you answer my questions about skaters from Mexico? Do they get to compete at Worlds if they aren't invited and don't participate in the GP?

Does a seeded skater who declines the invitation prior to the season still get to skate at Worlds?

Seems to me, depending on your answer, the ISU may not have as much control as they would like should they make such demands on only part of their constituency nations and skaters.

[Mariadonna]

If the ISU did not have the last word then the CoP could not have been pushed through so quickly and we would be still langishing under 6.0 and saving spots for skaters who can't or won't advance the sport. Thank God this is the last U.S. Nationals that will be able to do this. I do not know about the Mexican skaters, maybe someone else can answer that.

[Rapt2Go]

If the ISU did not have the last word then the CoP could not have been pushed through so quickly and we would be still langishing under 6.0 and saving spots for skaters who can't or won't advance the sport. Thank God this is the last U.S. Nationals that will be able to do this. I do not know about the Mexican skaters, maybe someone else can answer that.

Mariadonna-

You lost me. What does this have to do with the ISU having the ability to force a select group of skaters [ from a variety of nations] to skate in the GP or not be eligible for Worlds? Your comment about US Nats and the CoP doesn't really seem related to the topic.... so what am I missing?

[Schmeck]

The US is languishing under 6.0????? :lol: Yeah, that's why the US ladies brought home Olympic gold, they're languishing...

I don't see the GP as 'meaningful', either, since only 6-8 skaters compete at a time. It's seems exactly like a cheesefest to me, just sliced differently.

Did Michelle withdraw from events, or did she just not accept them? Didn't the ISU try to pull this one on her before, and it backfired on them?

[Mariadonna]

My point is that Speedy and the ISU can do as they please regarding the GP, Worlds and the next Olympics- the whole nine yards. The skaters can decide if they want to continue their competitive careers. I don't have a problem with this. I think it's great.

[KHenry14]

What isn't said in the ISU letter is their motivation for doing this. It's not about what's right by the event, it's all about money. We will never know, but I bet that the brass at ABC called up Cinqunata and told him to do something about the stars not being at the events because their ratings are receding faster than Michael Weiss' hairline.

And doing this in mid-season smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to the problem. If they wanted to do this, they should have made this edict last July, not now.

What this also says is that the ISU needs Michelle a lot more than she needs them!

KH14

[Mariadonna]

Yes, the ISU certainly should have issued this directive in the summer. They may need the top draws but I think they are all through kowtowing to the skaters last minute descisons. The skaters may feel the same way and feel they are being pressured.... they are.....good! They can always go pro or retire.

[dr.frog]

We will never know, but I bet that the brass at ABC called up Cinqunata and told him to do something about the stars not being at the events because their ratings are receding faster than Michael Weiss' hairline.

Actually, one of the stories I read was that someone from the Japanese federation called up Cinquanta and complained about Plushenko dropping out of NHK. Nothing to do with ABC, after all.

[Arsenette]

My point is that Speedy and the ISU can do as they please regarding the GP, Worlds and the next Olympics- the whole nine yards. The skaters can decide if they want to continue their competitive careers. I don't have a problem with this. I think it's great.

Riiiiiiight :roll: Thanks goodness YOU are not a member of the over 100 nations involved in the ISU .. Sorry to break it to you sweety.. the ISU does not work in a vacuum (well.. most of the time ;) ). Apparently you have no clue what this present problem is that is being discussed.

[Mariadonna]

And you apparently have no clue as to the real power Speedy has over the ISU. They said he'd never get the CoP past the governing body but he did. Now he wants conformation or valid medical excuses before events take place. I bet he gets it. The skaters will have to either show up or give up.

[Schmeck]

or skaters could finally tell the ISU where to stick it, and refuse to skate in any ISU events. The IOC, which knows the value of the skaters at the winter Olympics, wouldn't be too happy with the ISU then...

[nyskatefan]

My point is that Speedy and the ISU can do as they please regarding the GP, Worlds and the next Olympics- the whole nine yards. The skaters can decide if they want to continue their competitive careers. I don't have a problem with this. I think it's great.


Take it to the bank ... no such thing will occur this season. I don't think even Speedy is THAT stupid to try! But hey, I would certainly be entertained watching him get what he deserved if he did.

[SkateFan123]

or skaters could finally tell the ISU where to stick it, and refuse to skate in any ISU events. The IOC, which knows the value of the skaters at the winter Olympics, wouldn't be too happy with the ISU then...
I like that idea but it won't happen.

[KHenry14]

Actually, one of the stories I read was that someone from the Japanese federation called up Cinquanta and complained about Plushenko dropping out of NHK. Nothing to do with ABC, after all.

Do you really believe that it all it took was for the Japanese Federation to complain and Cinquanta jumped to do their bidding??? I don't think they have that kind of juice in the ISU frankly. A statement like this has to have more behind it that just one upset Federation.

And let's not forget that NBC has zillions of dollars invested in the Winter Games, I don't think that Dick Ebersole would be too pleased if the ISU banned all their leading skaters. Ya gotta figure that Rogge and Ebersole have had conversations about this too.

KH14

[cello]

We were watching one of the GP events and the fluff piece on Ryan Janke came on. My bf couldn't understand why Ryan's married status was such a big deal. After explaining why, he said skaters are like treated more like thoroughbred horses than athletes - with people wanting to control and direct so much of what they do.

Don't tennis players pull out of their events fairly frequently? Does the tennis association doesn't get all freaked out about it? But I think there are more good tennis players to make it interesting. Perhaps the ISU should spend more time on development.

[Lise]

Tennis is completely different-it's like golf. They have their "amateur" status and pro. In pro, there tends to be more competitions so when they withdraw in advance. Also, these sports are a little longer because they have pre-limis or round robins before quarterfinal, semis and finals. It does take a lot out of a player. I would compare the GP season to that of diving.

In skating, I am siding with the ISU on this one. There have been way too many withdrawing from events citing injuries, and yet these same people are competing in smaller venues or competitions. Some skaters are not injured at all. I think it's high time they enforce the regulation for competing. If the skaters don't like it, they can turn pro.

[Schmeck]

They're withdrawing because the GP is meaningless - it just makes money for the ISU and the skaters who win. But in the long run, winning the GP, the GPF, is nothing. There's no real 'glory' in it - it's not Worlds, it's not Nationals, and it certainly isn't the Olympics. It's just another form of cheesefest. Skaters are realizing that doing the GP is not worth it, that it kills your chances of being healthy for the big competitions. Skaters don't grow up saying "I want to be the NHK champion..." :lol:

[Alexa]

They're withdrawing because the GP is meaningless - it just makes money for the ISU and the skaters who win. But in the long run, winning the GP, the GPF, is nothing. There's no real 'glory' in it - it's not Worlds, it's not Nationals, and it certainly isn't the Olympics. It's just another form of cheesefest. Skaters are realizing that doing the GP is not worth it, that it kills your chances of being healthy for the big competitions. Skaters don't grow up saying "I want to be the NHK champion..." :lol:

I tend to want to agree with Lise on this one, but you make a very good point. So, I must be undecided on this one. Too funny about the comment about wanting to be the NHK champion. :)

I guess in the end it is the fans losing out. Because many fans would much prefer to see their favorite skaters in a competitive venue like the Grand Prix because it does actually lead to a "final" versus a cheesefest that truly does not mean anything. If the GP diminishes in importance, the fans will only see their favorite skaters at nationals and worlds.

I always saw the GP as an opportunity for skaters to compete against the rest of the best and to fine tune their programs and training for worlds. I think it would seem strange if it gets to the point that few skaters compete at the GP.

[Schmeck]

One of the main problems with the GP is/was that the casual watcher really didn't 'get' the whole GP idea. They just saw the same few skaters (names that they recognized, anyways, plus skaters they never heard of) skating the same programs, 2-3 times over a period of a few months. What did it all mean?

So, viewership is down, the major networks don't want to carry the whole series, the ISU knows that the big names (Kwan, Plushenko, Cohen, etc) are what gets the casual fan to watch, so they try to pressure them to skate at as many GP events that they can force them to do. That's too much of a high level of preparedness to be at for a long period of time, the skaters burn out/get injured, etc, and they rebel by not doing the GP.

Figure skating is the big $$$ maker for the ISU (rumors of FS money being used for speedskating, remember?) so now it's in panic mode, because the 'famous name' skaters aren't tripping over themselves to do what the ISU needs them to do. Speedy can try to force them, but I think he'll end up with no big name US skaters soon (except maybe Cohen), and will be stuck hyping foreign skaters in the US, which won't draw in the big, casual fan money he needs. I don't think the US is going to go Oksana-crazy again any time soon...

And I know I make this sound like it's all about the ladies, but I really feel it is here in the US, which is where a lot of the money is coming from. I don't think Speedy realizes how important having a big name US ladies skater is to US figure skating revenue.

[lilwish]

I could not agree with you more. Also, the skaters were exhausted which is why they keep pulling out of events.

[cello]

Tennis is completely different-it's like golf. They have their "amateur" status and pro. In pro, there tends to be more competitions so when they withdraw in advance. Also, these sports are a little longer because they have pre-limis or round robins before quarterfinal, semis and finals. It does take a lot out of a player. I would compare the GP season to that of diving.

Wasn't part of the reason for the GP to make it more like a tennis like sport? They also added the seeding of skaters.....which nobody seems to pay attention to either.

[Schmeck]

But to make it a 'stronger' sport, it has to change more than the scoring system, IMO. I think the whole idea of skating to music, and having any subjective scores at all, is what the casual fan doesn't get. They want goals, clear winners/losers, maybe even some physical contact... :roll: And US audiences (where the most $$ is made) don't get excited for a competition called 'Trophee blah-blah-blah', held in France, or 'NHK', etc. We're so stuck on the US being the center of the universe, you know. It's really a shame that it's turning out this way. It's not fair. But it's only figure skating as well.

I don't see it becoming a really popular sport, except in Olympic years, or if a scandal turns up again. I think it has to be managed more carefully, or it's going to be even more of a joke to the casual fan then it is already. And sad to say, it has to appeal to the casual fan to succeed in the way the ISU wants it to.

[Kemy]

Again though, if the skaters are exhausted, why don't they pull out of tours and cheesefests BEFORE GP events. Sorry, but as long as what are essentially show events get equal attention (if not more) than all but the top competitions, figure skating will not be considered a real sport. And frankly, I'm starting to agree with the non-sport crowd as I watch so many people fight the changes that the ISU tries to make to move towards a stronger sport set-up and judging system.

Figure skating has never been considered a "real" sport and I doubt it ever will be.

[LittleBitSk8er]

Say what you will but I'm enjoying this whole thing. I'm thrilled that the ISU is in charge and not some idol worshiping fans. Thank God.
:) thanks for making me laugh.............

[SkateFan123]

One of the main problems with the GP is/was that the casual watcher really didn't 'get' the whole GP idea. They just saw the same few skaters (names that they recognized, anyways, plus skaters they never heard of) skating the same programs, 2-3 times over a period of a few months. What did it all mean?

So, viewership is down, the major networks don't want to carry the whole series, the ISU knows that the big names (Kwan, Plushenko, Cohen, etc) are what gets the casual fan to watch, so they try to pressure them to skate at as many GP events that they can force them to do. That's too much of a high level of preparedness to be at for a long period of time, the skaters burn out/get injured, etc, and they rebel by not doing the GP.

Figure skating is the big $$$ maker for the ISU (rumors of FS money being used for speedskating, remember?) so now it's in panic mode, because the 'famous name' skaters aren't tripping over themselves to do what the ISU needs them to do. Speedy can try to force them, but I think he'll end up with no big name US skaters soon (except maybe Cohen), and will be stuck hyping foreign skaters in the US, which won't draw in the big, casual fan money he needs. I don't think the US is going to go Oksana-crazy again any time soon...

And I know I make this sound like it's all about the ladies, but I really feel it is here in the US, which is where a lot of the money is coming from. I don't think Speedy realizes how important having a big name US ladies skater is to US figure skating revenue.
No rumor, Speed Skating does get money earned by the ISU generated from Figure Skating revenue. Speed Skating got lots of money of the coat tails of Figure Skating for the last ten years.

The Grand Prix took some events that occurred regularly and consolidated them into another made-for-tv event to combat the pro events. It worked. It brought big tv dollars to the ISU and it crushed pro event interest.

Now that general interest in such events has dwindled, tv ratings dwindled and the new ISU tv contract is not as lucrative as it once was. As a result both Speed Skating and Figure Skating have less dollars to spread around. Prize money for Figure Skating is down, skater interest is down.

I do agree that without top US Ladies, that the ratings will go down even further and that Speedy doesn't have a clue!

Cohen won't be around long. She has already stated that she expected to win the 2002 Gold and retire from eligible skating like Tara did. I suspect that if she wins in 2006, that she'll be gone just like she said about 2002. 2006 is just around the corner. The big question is can she skate consistently and win? I hope her back is not an issue for her and that the rest she has given it now helps her in the long run.

Personally, I have passed on many ISU events last year and this year due to my own lack of interest in supporting a sport that hide behind secret judging. Nor did I buy tickets for the 2007 USFS Championships (I usually buy them the day they go on sale!). Perception is reality and for me, the reality is that this new system makes it easier to cheat. The problem with 2002 was not the scoring system but cheating judges and federations. CoP has not fixed that problem. Until a system is in place that corrects the problem, my own dollars spent supporting the ISU events will continue to dwindle. The only events I am currently attending are those I already had tickets for. Some of those I passed on too. I did go to two GP events this year in anticipation of seeing certain skaters but those I wanted to see for the most part, did not appear. I'm not angry or upset about it. There is never a guarantee as to who will appear at such events.

It will be interesting to see what the affects of Speedy's letter actually will be and to see if federations will give him control over who goes to Worlds or not. It think that will set the future for the sport. The ISU to there to provide unity and structure for Federations. Federations should maintain control of their own skaters, not Speedy. That just my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mariadonna]

I doubt seriously that figure skating will just go away. Competitive FS has been around for over 100 years. The ISU has been involved almost since the very inception of competitive FS. For those who think this is the end of the ISU, think again.

[loveskating]

I agree with the ISU...I think they should take charge! They are clearly saying that anyone who is injured need not participate in the GP Series, but then they cannot claim injury and go participate in the Pro Ams EITHER! That is fair. They are clearly not saying that the skaters have to skate if injured!

You cannot set up competitions and then allow them to be made irrelevant by the whim of individuals in the sport. You cannot allow ANYONE to assert a special situation viz the other competitors. There is no professional organization in the US, say the ABA or the Lawyers GUild, which would have activities and ethics that it would allow to become irrelevant by ANY individual.

However, I don't think they should sanction anyone this season...but now that they have made the point, I think they should rigorously enforce the point next year.

I think attandance is down in the US for a number of reasons, including the economy and an exhausted work force, but most of all because the public believes that the sport is corrupt because of 2002 NBC coverage and generally, a kind of effort to take the soulful response of Americans away from them, to hype and manipulate and unduly influence them. This has already harmed other sports in this nation!

Additionally, I think that recently skating has been built on ONE personality, and that is always dangerous. If she is not there, her fans go home.

[Schmeck]

Didn't know there were any pro-ams this year - did you mean the USFSA cheesefests? I don't think any 'pro' skaters were asked to compete in these.

[Mariadonna]

I knew that was coming. The point is, the ISU is in fact over 100 yrs old. They aren't going anywhere.

[LTM]

For once I kind of agree with the ISU. If your too injured to compete in GP circuit what are you doing competing in some other event which happens to have a richer purse.
And no athlete should get too cocky.
I love skating, NOT one or two skaters. Without the Kwans, Plushenckos, Cohens, etc etc other skaters have really shone and who knows. With the added confidence wins produce plus programs skated in front of international
judges already the skaters who skated the GP series might have some advantages at Worlds those who skipped GP don't.
Fine by me. The
sport is not going to develop with same old same old all the time.

[loveskating]

I just wanted to mention that while I agree with the ISU, when it comes to any injury, two weeks can make a huge difference in whether the injury has healed or not.

Two weeks before the 98 Olympics, Ilia Kulik could hardly stand up, he had a terrible back injury and was not expected to be able to compete!

So its perfectly reasonable that a skater could pull out of, say, NHK, and then be ready to skate several weeks later...and desire to do so just to get some competition under their belt.

[loveskating]

I think a little bit of historical data on the GP Series is needed here.

SA, SC, etc. were international events hosted for many years by those countries and had no connection to each other. In 95, the ISU realized with the new interest in figure skating that it had an opportunity to expand and capitalize on TV coverage of skating. It got 6 countries to join together to form a competition called “Skate International.” This met with such success that in 97 they changed the name to the “Grand Prix Series” and offered prize money to the skaters. I would like to say the prize money was offered as a reward to the skaters but really feel it was an attempt to keep skaters from turning pro. Back in that time frame there were many opportunities for pros to make money and very few for elligibles.

Two of the top contenders during 95-97 were Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen. During that time frame they upped the technical difficulties to 6-7 triples per free skate. This became the standard rather than the exception.

Then in 99 the ISU lost its mind. They added a requirement that the single skaters competing in the GPF had to perform two different free skates. That was supposed to enhance TV ratings but the funny thing was TV never showed both free skates. Fortunately, that was finally dropped.

What we are seeing now is the toll the frantic schedule between October and January is taking on the skaters. In addition, the new requirements of COP are not to be taken lightly. Gone are the days when a 6-7 jump program with “artistry” was the goal. Now a skater must be able to pull off a 6-7 jump program AND be able to perform at level 2 or 3 for all connecting and in-between moves. Love him or hate him, Dick Button has always said that to do a quality spin, layback, or spiral is as demanding as doing a triple.
No wonder we are seeing all these injuries/withdrawals.

The major $’s for ISU came from the USA and ABC-TV. The fact that no one has been able to capture the attention of the “casual” viewers other than Michelle Kwan does present a problem. Sasha needs to have another breakthrough season.

I have no sympathy for the ISU and think they need to find another scapegoat other than Michelle Kwan. I don’t think the new “rules” are aimed at anyone other than Michelle—just as they have been in the past. Obviously they are not aimed at Plushenko who they allowed to skate a Cup of Russia only . . . but that is a whole ‘nuther story.

But what I wanted to point out is that the GP Series has not been around that long. Since its addition to the skating calendar, injuries to the top skaters have soared. Maybe something has to be done to change the skating calendar and spread the competitions over a longer period of time?

Some changes are needed . . .

I agree that some changes are needed, and that the schedule, along with great travel time, is too hard on the skater's bodies now that the quad for men and the second lutz for ladies are the standard (3/3s were HARDLY unusual in ladies skating prior to MIchelle Kwan making that second lutz necessary).

I think the GP Finals could go...money could be awarded to whomever gets the most points and either the math of the points could be changed or the prize could be divided equally. If you leave that out, its, say, Skate AMerica, Skate China, Nationals and Worlds, which is NOT grueling!

Just as it was Elvis Stojko who made the quad necessary, it was Michelle Kwan who made the second lutz necessary, which you basically acknowledge... so don't blame that on the ISU! undefined

[prunes89]

Just as it was Elvis Stojko who made the quad necessary, it was Michelle Kwan who made the second lutz necessary, which you basically acknowledge... so don't blame that on the ISU! undefined

Loveskating, I am shocked to see you post this! I was under the impression that Michelle did nothing to advance the sport technically.
I have always credited Michelle Kwan with the need for a 3/3. Skaters knew they needed it to beat her. Tara, Irina, Sarah, and Sasha has been working on one for years. Some skaters (Irina, Sarah) even needed two 3/3's, and Tara needed a 3/3 and an additional sequence to beat MK. I guess we can thank Michelle for that as well.
Anyone know if Sasha and Irina have a 3/3 up their sleeve for this season? Any news on Michelle?

[Mariadonna]

I don't know if Sasha has a 3/3. We all know MK does not. The main point is the Japanese definetly have their's.

[Tamwheel]

I agree that some changes are needed, and that the schedule, along with great travel time, is too hard on the skater's bodies now that the quad for men and the second lutz for ladies are the standard (3/3s were HARDLY unusual in ladies skating prior to MIchelle Kwan making that second lutz necessary).

Just as it was Elvis Stojko who made the quad necessary, it was Michelle Kwan who made the second lutz necessary, which you basically acknowledge... so don't blame that on the ISU! undefined

Michelle Kwan did not make the second Lutz necessary. Kristi Yamaguchi did. She was the first to do 2 Lutzes and did it to win the 1991 Worlds and 1992 Worlds and Olympics and EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM she ever competed in. She never missed a triple Lutz in her eligible days. She also was the FIRST woman to ever do it in the short back in the late 1980's, something that ALL LADIES are doing today. Lu Chen, Surya Bonaly, Nancy Kerrigan and even Midori Ito soon followed that pattern in the early 90's...all of them started doing programs with 2 triple Lutzes AND a short with a triple Lutz combination after Kristi and continued to do them for the rest of their careers. Michelle copied that pattern. (Harding didn't have a second Lutz, she did a triple Axel instead)

That was Kristi, not Michelle or Midori. Kristi modeled the repeat triple Lutz on the men's programs with the two triple Axels...and that has today become the standard model of the ladies program, including Kwan, Cohen, Lipinksi, Slutskaya, Arakawa....so you can blame that one on Kristi, and indirectly, it all comes from Ito.


Loveskating, I am shocked to see you post this! I was under the impression that Michelle did nothing to advance the sport technically.
I have always credited Michelle Kwan with the need for a 3/3. Skaters knew they needed it to beat her. Tara, Irina, Sarah, and Sasha has been working on one for years. Some skaters (Irina, Sarah) even needed two 3/3's, and Tara needed a 3/3 and an additional sequence to beat MK. I guess we can thank Michelle for that as well.


Skaters were doing triple-triples well before they needed to 'beat Kwan' (including Bobek at 95 worlds when she was ranked well ahead of Michelle) and Michelle herself only started doing it later that fall...to beat skaters like Bobek. Kwan has really only done that combination less than a handful of times in the world/Olympics free skates: her batting average with the combination is not that great....and actually averaged only about one 3-3 per season...which is why her programs had a built in triple toe backup at the end. Butyrskaya didn't need one to beat Kwan.

It was really Midori Ito that necessitated the triple-triple...when she first started doing them iin the mid 80's, Tonya Harding, Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan, and Surya Bonaly, whe were the top 5 skaters in that time period, all came out with their own combinations IN THE EARLY 90's...to beat ITO. look at the program content of all of them in 1991-2...especially if they couldn't do a triple Axel. This carried on all the way up thru 1995 Worlds when Bonaly and Bobek were attempting triple Lutz-triple toe and Michelle hadn't even started doing triple toe-triple toe.

The ones who really reignited the two triple-triple craze is Tara Lipinski and Slutskaya and then Sarah Hughes who were doing two triple-triples combos or sequences that were really unprecedented. Now the Japanese girls are doing it. You could blame the two Triple-triple craze on Michelle Kwan... and ironically Michelle has never done it herself.

What Michelle did pioneer was the 7 triple program from BEGINNING to END of the season. She averages 7 triples per program which was really unprece(ndented.

[Schmeck]

Michelle has planned 7-triple programs, but her real average is closer to 6 completed in a program.

Kristi used to do triple lutzes like they were a piece of cake, but she used to really struggle with another triple - wasn't it the salchow?

I think the real question is if the ISU can survive for the 3 years it's going to take for them to get another 'star' to promote. This year, they don't have anyone. Next year they get an Olympic gold medalist, who will most likely retire. Then they have to find that certain someone who the casual fan will cheer for, in order to get good ratings for the US TV broadcasts of the GP events. That may take one year, or even two. Can the ISU make enough money off of it's GP events from now until then? Because we all know it's about money!

[Mariadonna]

If you are suggesting MK will win a gold medal. I think you are dreaming, unless everyone else just has a mass melt down.

[Schmeck]

No I didn't. I think whoever ends up with the ladies' OGM will retire after Turino, be it Cohen, Kwan, Slutskaya, or one of the up-and-comers. At least, that's what the trend has been for a long time. Hughes retired (after a pitiful Nationals/Worlds the next year), Lipinski retired, Bauil retired, Yamaguchi retired...

[Tamwheel]

No I didn't. I think whoever ends up with the ladies' OGM will retire after Turino, be it Cohen, Kwan, Slutskaya, or one of the up-and-comers. At least, that's what the trend has been for a long time. Hughes retired (after a pitiful Nationals/Worlds the next year), Lipinski retired, Bauil retired, Yamaguchi retired...

I don't think Hughes has ever officially retired. And she didn't retire after the Olympics, making her the first Olympic Champion to return to competition the next year since...K Witt in 1984. That's 20 years.

[Tamwheel]

Michelle has planned 7-triple programs, but her real average is closer to 6 completed in a program.





That may be true about her last 2 seasons, but up through 2002, she rarely missed her jumps and she competed OFTEN. Her content has come down these past two years but she also hasn't really been dominant in the sport since 2002. She's won worlds once since and has yet to lose nationals since 1997, but stayed mostly out of the eligible circuit since losing gold to Hughes. Mathematically since we're talking averages she's still well closer to a 7 than 6 and well higher than any other female in HISTORY.

[loveskating]

That may be true about her last 2 seasons, but up through 2002, she rarely missed her jumps and she competed OFTEN. Her content has come down these past two years but she also hasn't really been dominant in the sport since 2002. She's won worlds once since and has yet to lose nationals since 1997, but stayed mostly out of the eligible circuit since losing gold to Hughes. Mathematically since we're talking averages she's still well closer to a 7 than 6 and well higher than any other female in HISTORY.

As I recall, her run with the 3/3 toe loop began in 1999 (at US Nationals) and ended pretty much in 2001.

As I recall, she did not compete often after 1998, nor during 1998 when she had a big toe injury, leaving out the many pro ams she was in after 1998. Seemed to me she routinely did Skate America, Skate Canada, GP Finals, Nationals and Worlds. For the past three years, she has done one GP event, cheesefests, Nationals and Worlds...if compared to say Irina or Maria, and Sasha and Sarah, who usually did 3 GP events, plus GP Finals, Natioanls and Worlds plus the cheesefests!

"I think the real question is if the ISU can survive for the 3 years it's going to take for them to get another 'star' to promote. This year, they don't have anyone. Next year they get an Olympic gold medalist, who will most likely retire. Then they have to find that certain someone who the casual fan will cheer for, in order to get good ratings for the US TV broadcasts of the GP events. That may take one year, or even two. Can the ISU make enough money off of it's GP events from now until then? Because we all know it's about money!"

I think they need to do just the opposite...I want them to hype two skaters, at least, in all the disciplines, instead of hyping just one skater, and not based on some evil rivalry, but more like "this may be your only chance to see these great, incredible athletes live." They need to somehow address the fact that skating is extremely HARD, and DANGEROUS and the incredible athleticism of skaters, and that skating is EVEN better live!

If its not an American, too bad! Americans, because we come from all over the world, have never been that narrowly nationalistic! We've always gone for the Pavlova's etc., the best in the world, and enjoyed ourselves greatly for it! Even the Reagans asked specifically to meet Katia Gordeeva when they went to then communist Russia!

Finally, they need to watch the quality of the hype so that they don't deny the PEOPLE, the PUBLiC, who, afterall, in the final analysis pays for all of this, a truly soulful response to the actual skating. A lot of commentary viz. say Irina has been way over the top negative, totally unnecessary IMHO!

[Schmeck]

Kwan's record, as detailed on Heather's fan site:

11 seven triple programs
31 six triple programs
23 five triple programs
13 four triple (or less) programs

Averages out to be (counting the 'or less' as four, because I don't know the actual numner) 5.5 triples per program.

She did a 3t/3t at SA in '95, another one in '96 at the CSF, 3 in '97, 2 in '99, 1 in '00, 2 in '01, and 2 in '02.

Gotta love Heather's site! :bow:

I think it would be great to have 2-3 ladies that the casual fan would be interested in watching, but that really hasn't happened since Harding/Kerrigan/Bauil. And I hope we never have to go through that again!

And it seems that unless there's a "sob story" to exploit, the US casual fan doesn't care too much about the European skaters. We're very patriotic here, ain't we... :roll:

[prunes89]

I've never seen Michelle's record before. I have to admit that I am majorly impressed. Reading this board I was under the impression that Kwan couldn't land a 3/3 or a 7 triple program to save her life.
What are Sasha's stats on the 3/3?
How about Irina? Or Tara?
Does anyone have these?

[Schmeck]

Heather's site is the Michelle Kwan Fan Page, so she only has Kwan's programs. I've yet to find another incredibly thorough site for any other skater, sorry!

[prunes89]

I know Sasha has an amazing 3/3. How many times has she landed this in competition?
I know she landed the quad at Skate America, practice.
She is amazing!!

[Kemy]

I think she had her first fully clean 3/3 at Worlds 2003 in the Qual. Pretty sure that is it. She has another handful where it is a step out or slight two foot and such.

It was in the freeskate. She landed her first "clean" long program in the qualifying.

[hiliairyh]

Ah yes, I always get those mixed. Then again, I'm noted in not considering cleanliness to be a big deal in skating compared to quality.


???? cleanliness and quality are not mutually exclusive. Skaters who ususally perform clean programs, also have high quality skating. Tara, and Kristi are examples.

In thinking this, the phrase "cleanliness is next to godliness" came to mind, which if you think about it explains Kwan fans and their unusual level of devotion :lol:

I see an usual enormous amount of devotion from you to your favorite skater also. :)

[hiliairyh]

She landed her first "clean" long program in the qualifying.

Sasha stumbled on a cross over, and skated slow, it was a relatively clean program.

[icedancer2]

On a related point, if these big jumps are currently a problem with injuries, and given the CoP in many ways makes jump difficulty less crucial for skaters who are strong elsewhere, anyone else hope we see more creativity in the other jumps? 2a/3 combos, 3/2/2 combos, maybe jump variations like the tano or harder entries. I think there is so much more that can be done with what is already available to most skaters if they are creative without having to push into 3/3 3a or 4 territory. I think it is important that skaters always be pushing to be better than they were prior, but no one ever said that betterment needs to be adding revs to jumps. This is why ultimately I like the CoP...it seems to allow diversity of skating styles to succeed, not just jumping beans or consistent skaters.

I think we are going to see this with COP for sure. Given Jeffrey Buttle's performance at Cup of china compared with that tall Chinese guy (big jumps, flat, boring choreography, no edges vs. Jeffrey Buttle's mostly adequate and nice jumps (one fall I think) and amazing choreography and interesting moves, etc.

I am also completely impressed with what I have seen with Canadian Ladies Joannie Rochette and Cynthia Pfenuef -- wow, they are going to give MK et al a run for their money this year!

originally posted by hilaryh: I see an usual enormous amount of devotion from you to your favorite skater also..

In Bondo's defense, I don't think he plays favorites on this board. I couldn't tell you who his "favorite" skater was. (Do we have to have a "favorite"? -- I think not.)

[Kemy]

In Bondo's defense, I don't think he plays favorites on this board. I couldn't tell you who his "favorite" skater was. (Do we have to have a "favorite"? -- I think not.)
I think it's more like Bondo has non-favorites... :lol:

[Tessie]

Leo, you obviously didn't watch Skate America, or Skate Canada if you dont think Michelle could win a GP event.
I think one of the reasons MK might not want to participate in the GP series is the judges cheat at the GPF. I remember one year, Michelle won the SP, the first LP and then Irina landed two 3/3's in the second LP and this gave her the overall gold. I think her 3/3's were nice, but they came to a complete stand still on the ice. Then there was another GPF when Irina was just horrible compared to Michelle and Sarah Hughes, but Irina won. The placements were ridiculous! Judges had her in either 1st or 3rd place. No 2nd place at all. Total cheating. Sarah should've won that year, not Irina.
It's no wonder Michelle doesn't want to put herself through that again. She doesn't owe them anything. :frus:

I remember that GPF, if I recall correctly Peggy Flemming said "Irina just got an early Christmas present" :bow:

[loveskating]

I've never seen Michelle's record before. I have to admit that I am majorly impressed. Reading this board I was under the impression that Kwan couldn't land a 3/3 or a 7 triple program to save her life.
What are Sasha's stats on the 3/3?
How about Irina? Or Tara?
Does anyone have these?

Oh really? I never got that impression at all.

Here, I think perhaps the more important issue as to Kwan might be that she has not RECENTLY landed a 3/3 in competition (since when, Worlds 2001, I think?), which means that her skating is not at the level it previously was.

I've never heard anyone ask how many 3/3s Midori Ito or Tonya Harding or Surya Bonaly landed.

In any case, the numbers of 3/3 toe loops landed by Kwan don't make her a great jumper any more than the number of 3 axels landed by Mike Weiss makes him a great jumper! Fact is, his axel is not great, not even close to the quality of Kulik's, Boitano's, Yagudin's, Abt's! I'm sure he has landed it more often than Kulik...if for no other reason than he has competed longer. Yet few would claim that Weiss is even close to Kulik on the axel or any other jump, except the lutz (Mike has a great lutz) (or the quad toe loop).

Michelle Kwan is a very consistent jumper, not a great one. The quality of her jumps as to air position, height and ice covered, not to mention difficult entries, just don't put her in that category IMHO. Her edges on takeoff and landing except for the flutz are really good, but her speed into and out of her jumps is not exemplary (except on her 3/3 toe loop, where she was really solid, really exemplary).

Hmmm. I wonder of you asked Yagudin whose 3 axel was better, his or Kulik's he would say Kulik's was slightly better...yet Yagudin landed his a lot more times, because he competed longer and was quite consistent as to his jumps.

[loveskating]

"Leo, you obviously didn't watch Skate America, or Skate Canada if you dont think Michelle could win a GP event.
I think one of the reasons MK might not want to participate in the GP series is the judges cheat at the GPF. I remember one year, Michelle won the SP, the first LP and then Irina landed two 3/3's in the second LP and this gave her the overall gold. I think her 3/3's were nice, but they came to a complete stand still on the ice. Then there was another GPF when Irina was just horrible compared to Michelle and Sarah Hughes, but Irina won. The placements were ridiculous! Judges had her in either 1st or 3rd place. No 2nd place at all. Total cheating. Sarah should've won that year, not Irina.
It's no wonder Michelle doesn't want to put herself through that again. She doesn't owe them anything. "

For the record, that was the GP FInals in which Irina landed the first 3 lutz/3 loop by a woman, and then landed a 3 sal/3 loop...and she deserved to win, and the tech marks alone should have CREAMED Michelle.

YOu act as if under the 6.0 system a bad runout (on the second 3 sal/3 loop combo) disqualifies the combination jump. It doesn't. FOr that, Irina lost a bit on presentation, probably.

Additionally, Irina's spins were and are better than Kwan's, and when it comes to edging and the enormous speed that comes from truly great edging, it doesn't get any better than Irina Slutskaya! Irina's problem has always been a certain lack of whole body fluidity, which really hurts her on the presentation mark, but as to technical quality, she had it all over Michelle Kwan! Irina had in general far higher quality jumps than Michelle...absolutely perfect "proper backspin position" in the air, her jumps were high and coverd a lot of ice, her technique on all the jumps was pure and correct...she rotinely did a 3 lutz/2 loop in the SP and a 3 sal/3 loop in the LP, plus a 3 turn into her loop; she was hurt on presentation becasue she tended to telegraph some of her jumps, especially the lutz.

Sorry, but to complain of Irina's win at that GP Finals is pure Kwaniac Superfandom at its zenith...to complain that Irina won in a competition where she landed the first 3 lutz/3 loop a woman ever did, plus a 3 sal/3 loop, along with her other steller skating skills, is just incomprehensible to me.

[Mariadonna]

That's the very nature of that particular fan base LS. It's pure insanity. Visit a venue sometime and get a first hand look. :roll:

[prunes89]

Sorry, but to complain of Irina's win at that GP Finals is pure Kwaniac Superfandom at its zenith...to complain that Irina won in a competition where she landed the first 3 lutz/3 loop a woman ever did, plus a 3 sal/3 loop, along with her other steller skating skills, is just incomprehensible to me.

I think you're overacting loveskating.
Personally I feel there is more to skating than a 3/3 combo. If there wasn't, Miki Ando and some of the Japanese ladies would've been Senior Ladies World Champions faster than you can say Tara Lipinski.
What is Kwaniac Superfandom? Does one have to have Kwaniac Superfandom if they disagree an outcome of a competition?
I also disagree with some of the losses that Surya had when she was eligible. Does this make me a Suryianc Superfandom?
Maybe you have Iriniac Superfandom and can't handle a criticism? Either way, you're really over reacting.

[Schmeck]

While Irina had fast spins, they tended to be uncentered, especially when she changed positions. She also had a habit of 'oomphing' the spin around, an ugly way of forcing the spin during a change of foot.

Kwan did two 3t/3t in '02.

[hiliairyh]

On Irina winning GPF, that was a very gutsy performance, first lady to land triple lutz/ triple loop in a competition, that was Tara's dream combination before whe was injured.

I think it's more like Bondo has non-favorites... :lol:

non favorites or non favorite. BTW, Bondo, I did not hallucinate, maybe your identity was stolen, there is an imposter using your name Bondo, and he post at a skate specific board, wrote poems to his favorite brown eyed girl, tried to email his favorite through her webmaster, and tried tos send a picture he took with Sasha Cohen, (his favoirte skater) to her webmaster etc.

[Mariadonna]

That's kind of kinky. lmao

[Mariadonna]

Sorry Bondo, didn't mean to laugh but the way she said it struck me funny. As far as kinky goes, they don't come any kinkier than Kwan fans. They are really mental, imo.

[hiliairyh]

What is it with you freaks, twisting everything to suit your own purposes.

That is name calling.

regret over the things I've done, it just shows how pathetic you are that you feel the need to try to twist everything into something negative.

Who said you should feel shame or regret over things you have done. Since I do not take pictures with skaters, try to email any skaters, or collect a book to send to any skater, from my point of view those are actions of unusual devotion. I think writing poems about a skater, calling her "my favorite brown eyed girl" reflects unusual devotion. I don't view unusual devotion as negative, but since you do, so you were trying to bring up Michelle's fans out of nowhere in this thread for what?? Who is twisting things into negative, and who is trying to be negative??

[Mariadonna]

Oh my dear that's small potatoes. The Kwan fans have an online shrine where you can light candles in differant colors, they actually change the names of towns she will be appearing in like Kwanlouis instead of St Louis, they have eating rituals before every Kwan skate which includes chicken and Jr Mints. When they really like something it is not "wonderful", it's "Kwanderful. I could go on, there's lots more but you get the picture. 8O

[hiliairyh]

Oh my dear that's small potatoes.

I won't call Bondo small potato

[Mariadonna]

Lol h, I have to admit you do make me laugh. Stop that.

[loveskating]

Michelle Kwan did not make the second Lutz necessary. Kristi Yamaguchi did. She was the first to do 2 Lutzes and did it to win the 1991 Worlds and 1992 Worlds and Olympics and EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM she ever competed in. She never missed a triple Lutz in her eligible days. She also was the FIRST woman to ever do it in the short back in the late 1980's, something that ALL LADIES are doing today. Lu Chen, Surya Bonaly, Nancy Kerrigan and even Midori Ito soon followed that pattern in the early 90's...all of them started doing programs with 2 triple Lutzes AND a short with a triple Lutz combination after Kristi and continued to do them for the rest of their careers. Michelle copied that pattern. (Harding didn't have a second Lutz, she did a triple Axel instead)

That was Kristi, not Michelle or Midori. Kristi modeled the repeat triple Lutz on the men's programs with the two triple Axels...and that has today become the standard model of the ladies program, including Kwan, Cohen, Lipinksi, Slutskaya, Arakawa....so you can blame that one on Kristi, and indirectly, it all comes from Ito.




Skaters were doing triple-triples well before they needed to 'beat Kwan' (including Bobek at 95 worlds when she was ranked well ahead of Michelle) and Michelle herself only started doing it later that fall...to beat skaters like Bobek. Kwan has really only done that combination less than a handful of times in the world/Olympics free skates: her batting average with the combination is not that great....and actually averaged only about one 3-3 per season...which is why her programs had a built in triple toe backup at the end. Butyrskaya didn't need one to beat Kwan.

It was really Midori Ito that necessitated the triple-triple...when she first started doing them iin the mid 80's, Tonya Harding, Kristi Yamaguchi, Nancy Kerrigan, and Surya Bonaly, whe were the top 5 skaters in that time period, all came out with their own combinations IN THE EARLY 90's...to beat ITO. look at the program content of all of them in 1991-2...especially if they couldn't do a triple Axel. This carried on all the way up thru 1995 Worlds when Bonaly and Bobek were attempting triple Lutz-triple toe and Michelle hadn't even started doing triple toe-triple toe.

The ones who really reignited the two triple-triple craze is Tara Lipinski and Slutskaya and then Sarah Hughes who were doing two triple-triples combos or sequences that were really unprecedented. Now the Japanese girls are doing it. You could blame the two Triple-triple craze on Michelle Kwan... and ironically Michelle has never done it herself.

What Michelle did pioneer was the 7 triple program from BEGINNING to END of the season. She averages 7 triples per program which was really unprece(ndented.

I disagree ...it was MK who made all the other skaters have to land the second lutz if they wanted to win...whether there was a 3/3 in the mix or not. Skaters were constantly doing 3/3s before that...but not the second lutz. Now everyone does it, or tries to. It is a component part of almost any winning program. I disagree that Midori or Kristi made it necessary. Midori and Tonya were exceptional. Although Kristi had/has a very consistent lutz...she did not compete long enough to define this for the other skaters, IMHO, any more than her landing a 3 lutz/3 toe loop at the Olympics made that necessary. Kwan is the one who consistently landed the second lutz, which is worth a lot of points, and thus made it necessary for others to do so to beat her. Just as Stojko was not the first to land a quad, nevertheless, it was he, by landing it consistently, who necessitated everyone else having one if they wanted to have a chance to beat him.

I have credited the second lutz to Kwan numerous times in the past...and some of you who feel you have the right to make general vicious comments about me (most of which are LIES) have not done your homework if you don't know that...or you missed it in the heat of bashing me for things like wanting her to wear a red dress skating to Tosca!

And furthermore, just as Stojko's contribution technically cannot be denied, I believe that the quad is a huge reason so many skaters are winding up terribly injured these days, along with the far more demanding schedule of competitions. Same goes for the second lutz, more so if with a 3/3.

[loveskating]

I think you're overacting loveskating.
Personally I feel there is more to skating than a 3/3 combo. If there wasn't, Miki Ando and some of the Japanese ladies would've been Senior Ladies World Champions faster than you can say Tara Lipinski.
What is Kwaniac Superfandom? Does one have to have Kwaniac Superfandom if they disagree an outcome of a competition?
I also disagree with some of the losses that Surya had when she was eligible. Does this make me a Suryianc Superfandom?
Maybe you have Iriniac Superfandom and can't handle a criticism? Either way, you're really over reacting.

NO. I think there are numerous competitions where it was so close that there is actually reasonable and educated debate to be had over who should have won. That was not one of them. Irina deserved that win by a mile. Her program included the first 3 lutz/3 loop landed by a woman, ever, and one of my grudges against Team Kwan and many of Kwan's superfans is that they would not allow the skating community in America to just enjoy that for a moment, to relish it! They were busy bashing Irina instantly for a bad runout (which, again, is a minor problem)! I find that toxic fandom, to tell you the truth!

In any case, Michelle almost never beat Irina on the technical mark...it was usually on presentation that she won, and that night she made mistakes and was not nearly as seamless or poised, fluid, sure in her movement, as she was at the following Worlds, where, in fact, MK won totally fair and square with what was, IMHO, her best skate ever (and where Irina did not land the 3 lutz/3 loop).

P.S. I'm a fan of all the skaters, each for different reasons, as I find them all quite different. Sasha Cohen and Ilia Kulik are my all time faves, and next on my short list would be Peggy Fleming, Oksana Baiul, Michelle Kwan, Kurt Browning, Paul Wylie and Brian Boitano. I greatly respect Irina's skating and her as a person. These days, I am disappointed in Michelle's skating and in her behavior but I will always give her credit for the way she raised the level of the sport, including as to presentation.

[Mariadonna]

I agree LoveS- Kwan fans are way toxic.

[skaterboyvancan]

that rule was used against the russian dancers who won the world title twice back in the late 90's, they never did win an Olympic Medal. They were fined for withdrawing for their GP events, but were found making money in exhibitions. hahah

[Rapt2Go]

Sorry for being so dense - I asked this earlier in the thread.

Can someone explain to me how the ISU can demand certain skaters compete in the GP events or they are ineligible for World's? As I read the memo, I understood the directive to be - if you accept an invitation to a GP event and then withdraw you need a medical excuse. So, what will keep the skaters from refusing the invites altogether?

In the same line of thinking, how can lesser seeded skaters who do not get invited to GP events at all be allowed to attend World's?

Can someone that thinks the ISU is correct to enforce this "rule" please explain this to me? What am I missing? It seems like a double standard to me in addition to the ISU exploiting a skaters star power to generate money for their own purposes.

I am not accusing the ISU of this, but from what I have read it's the only conclusion I can draw. Admittedly I don't know the finer details of the relationship between the ISU and individual skaters. Do some skaters have contracts with the ISU? Or is lending their name to ISU events just "expected" in the skating world since it has always been that way?

[SkateFan123]

Can someone that thinks the ISU is correct to enforce this "rule" please explain this to me? What am I missing? It seems like a double standard to me in addition to the ISU exploiting a skaters star power to generate money for their own purposes.


Me thinks you hit the nail on the head!

[Schmeck]

I tend to think that everything the ISU does is for money - don't forget that they fund speedskating through figure skating profit.

The ISU 'seeds' skaters, and uses this seeding to designate between the big money ones and the up and coming, haven't made a name for themselves skaters. That way, they have a source of $$$, and they continue to have a flow of skaters to exploit in future years.

[prunes89]

Loveskating, you are blind! I am talking about GPF '02. I don't think Irina landed a 3/3 during that season, much less landing two. Please explain why Irina deserved the GPF win in '02 over Hughes and Kwan? It is plain as day that she was held up.

[prunes89]

NO
These days, I am disappointed in Michelle's skating and in her behavior but I will always give her credit for the way she raised the level of the sport, including as to presentation.

I agree. That's why I am questioning Sasha's behaviors and motives so much the past few seasons. She is copying Kwan. Where are the quad attempts she has promised us? Where are all the 3/3's she keeps saying she is going to have? Why isn't she competing this season?
I don't know. I am just torn. I used to like Sasha for being Sasha,but now I think she's trying too hard to be more like Michelle.

[prunes89]

Oh, I just don't know anymore Bondo. I love Sasha, but IMO, her skating has gone backwards. I am her biggest fan and defender. But how can you say her skating has gone forward? I'm worried about her this year. I haven't really seen her do anything yet this season to push the envelope, or last year. I waited anxiously for the quad and a 3/3 last year at Worlds. She played it safe. I miss the gutsy, go for broke Sasha.
I hope I'm wrong about her though. I still think she'll win Nationals and Worlds this year, but I hope she starts being "Sasha" again soon.

[loveskating]

Oh, I just don't know anymore Bondo. I love Sasha, but IMO, her skating has gone backwards. I am her biggest fan and defender. But how can you say her skating has gone forward? I'm worried about her this year. I haven't really seen her do anything yet this season to push the envelope, or last year. I waited anxiously for the quad and a 3/3 last year at Worlds. She played it safe. I miss the gutsy, go for broke Sasha.
I hope I'm wrong about her though. I still think she'll win Nationals and Worlds this year, but I hope she starts being "Sasha" again soon.

This season we saw Sasha do a forward Charlotte, which is certainly pushing the envelope...only other skater I've seen do that is Naomi Nari Nam. An Ina Bauer into a 2 axel is pushing the enevelope. Furthermore, Sasha's layback, spiral, and side catch spin push the envelope in that they are the best or among the best as to elements, and that is leaving out her Russian split and front catch spin, both of which are among the best ever.
That is why Sasha does so well in the COP...it rewards all aspects of skating.

As for the ISU's motives, I think Paul Wylie summed it up when he said that top skaters not participating attacks the ISU's credibility.

Also, if the ISU is just after money, then why not the USFSA? Why is it that everyone else in the world is "evil" and we are supposedly so good?

[Rapt2Go]

As for the ISU's motives, I think Paul Wylie summed it up when he said that top skaters not participating attacks the ISU's credibility.

But if the skater is not contractually obligated and monetarily rewarded for the contract, why should they feel obligated to compete? And how can they justify letting a skater who does not participate at GP events skate at Worlds? Does that double standard not do damage to their credibility with their own actions?


Also, if the ISU is just after money, then why not the USFSA? Why is it that everyone else in the world is "evil" and we are supposedly so good?

In the context of this discussion I would have to ask if the USFSA tells certain skaters they can't compete at Nationals if they don't compete at USFSA events? If the answer is yes, then I would say they are guilty of greed, too. But I thought the guidelines for getting to Nats are clearly defined through a levels progression assessment including sectionals, and regionals?

[Schmeck]

Of course the USFS makes money off of their 'cheesefests' - and some of that most likely has to go to the ISU. But the USFS doesn't threaten skaters with new rules every time something doesn't go their way, nor does it insist that skaters participate in a certain number of cheesefests in order to participate at another event. (yes, I know this has already been stated) So there are two differences.

Another difference is that the USFS only governs figure skating (singles, pairs, ice dance, adult, synchro) while the ISU governs figure skating and speed skating, and takes figure skating money to give to speed skating.

[Mariadonna]

I understand how you feel Prunes. Many of us who love Sasha are a little disappointed because she is truly gifted. Maybe she got a little freaked out by the Japanese and then Irena coming back. I just don't know either but I'm still rooting for her. We already have one safe skater, we don't need another.

[3ggi3]

I understand how you feel Prunes. Many of us who love Sasha are a little disappointed because she is truly gifted. Maybe she got a little freaked out by the Japanese and then Irena coming back. I just don't know either but I'm still rooting for her. We already have one safe skater, we don't need another.

by safe skater are u referring to MK? well she certainly did enough to win 5 world titles and 8 national titles (and hopefully more to come) AND two olympic medals didn't she?

[loveskating]

But if the skater is not contractually obligated and monetarily rewarded for the contract, why should they feel obligated to compete? And how can they justify letting a skater who does not participate at GP events skate at Worlds? Does that double standard not do damage to their credibility with their own actions?



In the context of this discussion I would have to ask if the USFSA tells certain skaters they can't compete at Nationals if they don't compete at USFSA events? If the answer is yes, then I would say they are guilty of greed, too. But I thought the guidelines for getting to Nats are clearly defined through a levels progression assessment including sectionals, and regionals?

Huh! Perhaps you do not recall the bye that Nicole Bobek, Worlds bronze medalist at the time, DID NOT GET from the USFSA in 1996...that was politics at its worst, if you ask me! And what was the reason? She skated injured in a show! THe real reason was that we only had two places and the USFSA wanted Tara and Michelle to go...not a bad reason, and if stated up front, I'd probably have agreed, but the actual reason was not stated. Instead of just telling the truth, they had to make poor Nicole look bad!

By the way, she skated injured in that show because she could not get out of the contract and she also needed the money.

[loveskating]

by safe skater are u referring to MK? well she certainly did enough to win 5 world titles and 8 national titles (and hopefully more to come) AND two olympic medals didn't she?

No one is disputing her wins...but since 2001, she did not win like skaters in the past, with incredible skates, like Kristi landing the 3 lutz/3 toe loop or Midori Ito's awesome jumps, or even Nancy Kerrigan's extremely difficult program which included a 3/3 toe loop in 1994 (her jumps were rather tiny)(won silver) or like Tara with a 3/3 loop or like Sarah with two 3/3s, one with a loop. Her jumps are no where near as huge or commanding as Oksana Baiul's were in 1994! Oksana's delayed 2 axel in the SP was so huge, so pure, I will never in my life forget it!

What is more, you will never, ever see Michelle Kwan skate like that again, IMHO. If that is what you like, a skater who plays it safe and stays on her feet, fine...that is not what I like to see, or perhaps, it is not what I like to see for frigging 10 years running, same programs with a few variations and lots of substandard skating which is proffered by some of her maniac fans as "the best" (layback, spins, blah blah) when it clearly is not element for element!

[prunes89]

I hope Sasha quits playing it safe. She should just go for the 3/3 and quad in the same program. She'll need it at Worlds against Irina and Shizuka. I know Sasha can do it. :bow:

[prunes89]

Sasha's goal has always been to be the first lady to land a quad in competition. I know she will be the first American lady to do this. It's just a matter of time. Even though with COP it won't matter as much, she has said she's goinna do it. I know she will. Sasha isn't like those other skaters that say theyre goinna do something and don't do it. That's why I admire her so much. :bow:

[Mariadonna]

I love Sasha too Prune. When she comes on the ice I think she is beautiful even before she starts skating. I do not want her to try a quad right now. I just want her to skate clean in the lp and have one 3/3. With her exceptional spins/laybacks that is all she needs under this scoring. I want her to stop falling.

[likes2skate]

No one is disputing her wins...but since 2001, she did not win like skaters in the past, with incredible skates, like Kristi landing the 3 lutz/3 toe loop or Midori Ito's awesome jumps, or even Nancy Kerrigan's extremely difficult program which included a 3/3 toe loop in 1994 (her jumps were rather tiny)(won silver) or like Tara with a 3/3 loop or like Sarah with two 3/3s, one with a loop. Her jumps are no where near as huge or commanding as Oksana Baiul's were in 1994! Oksana's delayed 2 axel in the SP was so huge, so pure, I will never in my life forget it!

What is more, you will never, ever see Michelle Kwan skate like that again, IMHO. If that is what you like, a skater who plays it safe and stays on her feet, fine...that is not what I like to see, or perhaps, it is not what I like to see for frigging 10 years running, same programs with a few variations and lots of substandard skating which is proffered by some of her maniac fans as "the best" (layback, spins, blah blah) when it clearly is not element for element!

Not to diss the american ladies, but since the 2002 Olympics with Sarah Hughes, NO american lady has won a competition "like skaters in the past". None of Sasha or Michelle's wins in the past 2 years went above and beyond the call of duty (the only 7 triple program was by Sasha at Marshalls, and most of the coreograpy was gone in the program) and last year neither of them tried a 3/3.

On another note, I hope Sasha ditches the quad. She does not need it, and it is too close to the Olympics to risk an injury. Also, wasn't she a lot smaller when she was landing them consistantly? I wonder if her growth spurt in the last 2 years has anything to do with her trouble with jumps. Wasn't she around 4'8 at the olympics, and now she is 5'2?

[loveskating]

Not to diss the american ladies, but since the 2002 Olympics with Sarah Hughes, NO american lady has won a competition "like skaters in the past". None of Sasha or Michelle's wins in the past 2 years went above and beyond the call of duty (the only 7 triple program was by Sasha at Marshalls, and most of the coreograpy was gone in the program) and last year neither of them tried a 3/3.

But I wasn't just talking about American ladies, I was talking about skaters who go for it. Sasha has gone for it, and failed, numerous times, and I pefer that. Michelle used to go for it too, in that field of skaters, she sure as heck went for it in 2000 at Worlds, up agaisnt Irina and Maria and after a disasterous Nationals, and she won!

Me, I'm a huge fan of Alexander Abt...and he did not win a lot of medals...he was "just" a very great skater who always skated his heart out, with a very high level of difficulty!


On another note, I hope Sasha ditches the quad. She does not need it, and it is too close to the Olympics to risk an injury. Also, wasn't she a lot smaller when she was landing them consistantly? I wonder if her growth spurt in the last 2 years has anything to do with her trouble with jumps. Wasn't she around 4'8 at the olympics, and now she is 5'2?

I agree...but she needs a 3/3 or a flip combo along with the lutz combo and perhaps a second flip. She has done that, can do it. No serpentine footwork into the flip, however.

[likes2skate]

But I wasn't just talking about American ladies, I was talking about skaters who go for it. Sasha has gone for it, and failed, numerous times, and I pefer that. Michelle used to go for it too, in that field of skaters, she sure as heck went for it in 2000 at Worlds, up agaisnt Irina and Maria and after a disasterous Nationals, and she won!

Me, I'm a huge fan of Alexander Abt...and he did not win a lot of medals...he was "just" a very great skater who always skated his heart out, with a very high level of difficulty!




I agree...but she needs a 3/3 or a flip combo along with the lutz combo and perhaps a second flip. She has done that, can do it. No serpentine footwork into the flip, however.

Yes, she needs a 3/3 (3t/3t?) but IMO Michelle needs it more to compete against a clean 7 triple Sasha on fire. Michelle is my favorite skater, I think the way she "performs" her programs is what makes lots of fans like me excited to watch her skate. I was jumping up and down with excitement in my room while watching nationals last year. But if you put aside the actual way she "performed" the program, the layouts of the programs lately are dull, and if someone like Miki Ando skated it, it would have been a snoozer. I think Sasha has the opposite problem. She has these great programs (especially 03 and beginning of 04) with her superior spins and spirlas , but she has not skated them with the attack and fire she is capeable of doing. (such as 04 Worlds SP).

[Schmeck]

But Sasha rarely skates a clean, consistent program, especially with 7 triples - consistency, that's her weakness - and when was the last time she skated three clean programs? (which is what she'll need for Worlds) If she could skate a consistent, clean (no wobbly, squeaked out landings) 6 triple free program at the same competiton that she nails a short program like she can, then she will get her gold.

[3ggi3]

No one is disputing her wins...but since 2001, she did not win like skaters in the past, with incredible skates, like Kristi landing the 3 lutz/3 toe loop or Midori Ito's awesome jumps, or even Nancy Kerrigan's extremely difficult program which included a 3/3 toe loop in 1994 (her jumps were rather tiny)(won silver) or like Tara with a 3/3 loop or like Sarah with two 3/3s, one with a loop. Her jumps are no where near as huge or commanding as Oksana Baiul's were in 1994! Oksana's delayed 2 axel in the SP was so huge, so pure, I will never in my life forget it!

What is more, you will never, ever see Michelle Kwan skate like that again, IMHO. If that is what you like, a skater who plays it safe and stays on her feet, fine...that is not what I like to see, or perhaps, it is not what I like to see for frigging 10 years running, same programs with a few variations and lots of substandard skating which is proffered by some of her maniac fans as "the best" (layback, spins, blah blah) when it clearly is not element for element!

Just to point out to you, I have skated under CoP ( I did a week and a half ago ) and you get a minus 4 for a fall ( -3 + a 1.0 deduction (.5 in novice and lower )), two falls can drop you two places easily, so I'm sure a clean 6 triple program will beat a 7 triple program (triple/triple) with falls, especially when someone like MK has done the work to get Level 3s on her spins etc.

Besides, no one cares what you want. The skaters do what they want, and they obviously don't care about your opinion. As for the judges, they luckily, aren't looking for the same things that you are.

[3ggi3]

But Sasha rarely skates a clean, consistent program, especially with 7 triples - consistency, that's her weakness - and when was the last time she skated three clean programs? (which is what she'll need for Worlds) If she could skate a consistent, clean (no wobbly, squeaked out landings) 6 triple free program at the same competiton that she nails a short program like she can, then she will get her gold.

It's true! She is so capable of winning. She just needs to hold herself together conistently!

[likes2skate]

Uh huh...Michelle with level 3 spins...right, and which CoP event has Michelle skated in and been rated at a level 3 spin? Oh right, she's run scared from all chances to compete under CoP.

Actually, there is an article floating around out there where Michelle talks about how trying to make her program COP friendly is like doing Math problems.

[shadymc]

Her jumps are no where near as huge or commanding as Oksana Baiul's were in 1994! Oksana's delayed 2 axel in the SP was so huge, so pure, I will never in my life forget it!

Michelle's jumps are also not usually two footed like Oksana's were in '94.

What is more, you will never, ever see Michelle Kwan skate like that again, IMHO. If that is what you like, a skater who plays it safe and stays on her feet, fine...that is not what I like to see, or perhaps, it is not what I like to see for frigging 10 years running, same programs with a few variations and lots of substandard skating which is proffered by some of her maniac fans as "the best" (layback, spins, blah blah) when it clearly is not element for element!

This quote makes no sense. You say that Michelle plays it safe for ten years and then, in another post, talk about how she went for it in '00 and '01. I would say it is fair to say that she has taken a break in '02 and '03. However, I will try to make the point again that her program this year does in fact include more difficult and varied spins and much more difficult footwork including some of one foot a la Irina (watch Marshalls broadcast). This clearly proves your contention wrong that Michelle will never skate like she did in the past. It clearly wasn't being rewarded prior to COP, so she stopped doing it. Now that it is being rewarded again, she is upping the non-jump elements, just like the other skaters are doing. By the way, I have seen you make the allegation over and over that Michelle's fans thinks she does everything the best (spins, layback, etc). I have never once seen a MK fan say Michelle's spins are the best.

As for the poster who felt that Sasha is copying Michelle. I agree. She is. For years I have watched Sasha's fans disparage Michelle over and over for such things as leaving her coach, reusing an old program, not attempting jumps she said she was planning, etc and then watched Sasha turn around and do the same thing. Of course, there is always a good reason when Sasha does it.

[magicladi]

These days, I am disappointed in Michelle's skating and in her behavior but I will always give her credit for the way she raised the level of the sport, including as to presentation

Yep, she certainly has done that. And she does a mean 3t/3t-saw her do one in 2003.

Her behavior? Is that based, loveskating, on the media reports or your own time spent with her? Was she mean to you or something? Because she is a kind, generous young woman. Just like so many of the other figure skaters. I don't see how anyone can be disappointed in someone's behavior if they have never met them, spent time with them, etc. Only if they have read what the media reports in a sensational manner or they make an assumption based on something they see from a distance can someone have issues with another person's behavior if they've never met them. That just cracks me up. :lol:

[jpeach]

HSF, you said it best. Thanks for the history of GP/GPF.

Off topic to a previous post: there is no such word as "irregardless." And while we're on the subject, the 't' in "often" is silent...just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

[sk8er1964]

HSF, you said it best. Thanks for the history of GP/GPF.

Off topic to a previous post: there is no such word as "irregardless." And while we're on the subject, the 't' in "often" is silent...just thought I'd throw that into the mix.

Don't know why you posted this, but thought I would respond.

From dictionary.com

of·ten ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôfn, fn, ôftn, f-)
adv. of·ten·er, of·ten·est
Many times; frequently.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English, alteration (probably influenced by selden, seldom), of oft from Old English. See upo in Indo-European Roots.]
Usage Note: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.

Also, "irregardless", while technically incorrect, has found it's way into casual speech. You can find it listed on dictionary.com too.

[SkateFan123]

Sasha's goal has always been to be the first lady to land a quad in competition. I know she will be the first American lady to do this. It's just a matter of time. Even though with COP it won't matter as much, she has said she's goinna do it. I know she will. Sasha isn't like those other skaters that say theyre goinna do something and don't do it. That's why I admire her so much. :bow:
Has any other women landed the quad in competition besides Miki Ando?

I think you're right that Sasha could be the first American to land the quad but she should do it sooner rather than later. More and more women will try it.

Anyone know who is actually working on a quad?

[prunes89]

I don't believe any other woman has stated publiclly they're working on the quad. Just Sasha. Sasha also said she is working on the 3loop/3loop. She was supposed to try this at Worlds last year. I was so disappointed when she didn't do it. I think she'll save it for this year.
Go Sasha! Go for the quad and 3loop/3loop at Nationals! :bow:

[3ggi3]

Uh huh...Michelle with level 3 spins...right, and which CoP event has Michelle skated in and been rated at a level 3 spin? Oh right, she's run scared from all chances to compete under CoP.

just because it isn't done at a CoP event doesn't mean you can't look at it and say, "oh that was level 3" or so forth.
I wasn't implying that she is doing level 3 everything,
I was just saying that she is working towards raising the base value of her elements. As well, I think you are pathetic, belittling Michelle like she is some novice figure skating failure. She has valid reasons for not doing Grand Prix events, and I'm sure she would much rather peak at Nationals and Worlds, rather than wasting her time skating for ****ers like you on TV.

[3ggi3]

I don't believe any other woman has stated publiclly they're working on the quad. Just Sasha. Sasha also said she is working on the 3loop/3loop. She was supposed to try this at Worlds last year. I was so disappointed when she didn't do it. I think she'll save it for this year.
Go Sasha! Go for the quad and 3loop/3loop at Nationals! :bow:

I don't think she'll try both, but her loop is really good. That would be kinda nice to see, since Tara was the last skater to do it!

[3ggi3]

This quote makes no sense. You say that Michelle plays it safe for ten years and then, in another post, talk about how she went for it in '00 and '01. I would say it is fair to say that she has taken a break in '02 and '03. However, I will try to make the point again that her program this year does in fact include more difficult and varied spins and much more difficult footwork including some of one foot a la Irina (watch Marshalls broadcast). This clearly proves your contention wrong that Michelle will never skate like she did in the past. It clearly wasn't being rewarded prior to COP, so she stopped doing it. Now that it is being rewarded again, she is upping the non-jump elements, just like the other skaters are doing. By the way, I have seen you make the allegation over and over that Michelle's fans thinks she does everything the best (spins, layback, etc). I have never once seen a MK fan say Michelle's spins are the best.

As for the poster who felt that Sasha is copying Michelle. I agree. She is. For years I have watched Sasha's fans disparage Michelle over and over for such things as leaving her coach, reusing an old program, not attempting jumps she said she was planning, etc and then watched Sasha turn around and do the same thing. Of course, there is always a good reason when Sasha does it.



WELL SAID. wow that is exactly how I feel! :)

[Mariadonna]

MK has bored the hell out of many skating fans for years. She can spin herself into the pipes under the ice at Worlds and the Olympics. It won't help.

[3ggi3]

WELL GUESS WHAT?
She doesn't care if she bores you. In fact, I'm sure the judges haven't been too bored with her skating, considering her placements over the years. You are just an over-the-top Sasha fan that can't stand Michelle doing so well for so long. It's not just talent that determines how well a skater can compete!

[adrianchew]

just because it isn't done at a CoP event doesn't mean you can't look at it and say, "oh that was level 3" or so forth.
I wasn't implying that she is doing level 3 everything,
I was just saying that she is working towards raising the base value of her elements. As well, I think you are pathetic, belittling Michelle like she is some novice figure skating failure. She has valid reasons for not doing Grand Prix events, and I'm sure she would much rather peak at Nationals and Worlds, rather than wasting her time skating for ****ers like you on TV.
Gosh you sure have a lot of ways to attack other posters don't you? Well trolls such as yourself are not welcomed here - goodbye! :twisted:

[hiliairyh]

.

Her behavior? Is that based, loveskating, on the media reports or your own time spent with her? Was she mean to you or something? Because she is a kind, generous young woman. Just like so many of the other figure skaters. I don't see how anyone can be disappointed in someone's behavior if they have never met them, spent time with them, etc. Only if they have read what the media reports in a sensational manner or they make an assumption based on something they see from a distance can someone have issues with another person's behavior if they've never met them. That just cracks me up. :lol:

Speaking in general terms, not referring to any fans or skaters specificlly. I think the problem is that for some fans they take things so personal about their favorite skaters at one end of the spectrum, then become extremely personal in the negative way against their favorite's rivals.

[magicladi]

MK has bored the hell out of many skating fans for years. She can spin herself into the pipes under the ice at Worlds and the Olympics. It won't help.

Well, that made me laugh, mariadonna! Thanks! I'm glad she hasn't bored the judges yet since all the fans have been sleeping in those seats for all these years. :lol:


hillary, I think you're right. People elevate their favorites by denigrating the rivals of their favorites. Kinda sad, but it's part of fandom I suppose. Me, I just like watch figure skating. I have my favorites (more than one) and those I don't particularly care for as far as their choice of programs, but hey, figure skating is what I've watched for a very long time. I haven't watched it because of just ONE particular skater, but a whole passel of 'em. I suppose that just makes me old. :lol: I guess that's why I don't understand someone questioning someone's integrity or behavior by media reporting if they've never met the person. Oh well, all water under the bridge and over two years old. :D

[Mariadonna]

I'm not a rabid Sasha fan. I like Ando and Arakawa just as well. I'm also fond of Irena. Plushy and Yags are the very best. Why? Because all these skaters deliver. Yes, even Sasha. She falls "trying". It's easy to skate safe. But I will not give compiments to arrogant skaters with empty programs and no degree of difficulty, I will not say they are good when they are not, regardless of how many times they are held up or what any judge thinks.

[phoenixxx]

"Trying" what?

A triple toe? A triple flip? A triple lutz? From what I saw at Marshalls, her entrances into these jumps were not on par with Shizuka's (who seems to be the only ladies skater with all these difficult moves everybody seems to praise highly so much) and were far from "difficult".

Please.

But I will not give compiments to arrogant skaters with empty programs and no degree of difficulty
Ah, there goes the bringing down of skaters (no doubt MK) to prop up others. :giveup:

[magicladi]

I'm not a rabid Sasha fan. I like Ando and Arakawa just as well. I'm also fond of Irena. Plushy and Yags are the very best. Why? Because all these skaters deliver. Yes, even Sasha. She falls "trying". It's easy to skate safe. But I will not give compiments to arrogant skaters with empty programs and no degree of difficulty, I will not say they are good when they are not, regardless of how many times they are held up or what any judge thinks.

At what point did any skater get arrogant? Isn't it enough that they are out there competing? Isn't it enough that they are probably doing things the majority of us can't do or would never be able to do? Whether they stand up or fall down, they are still doing something they love to do.

And if you think Kwan is arrogant, maybe you should take a minute or two and meet the young woman. I found her, Sasha, Irina and some of the others to be the least arrogant people I have met in my life. And they are in the public eye way more than people I have met in my life.

If it's so easy to skate safe, how come you aren't out there competing, mariadonna? I don't compete because I was told by my stepsister's coach years ago that I was hazardous on the ice. :lol: But I certainly wouldn't presume any person was arrogant just because they skated "safe". Guess skating "safe" is worth a World title. Those darn judges just don't get it, now do they? They just "give" that title to someone. Wow, I'm really befuddled now. After years of watching figure skating, I really thought those who ended up on the podium, no matter what spot, actually did something worth their medal. Shame on me for even thinking that. :??

[Mariadonna]

I stand by my comments. Many of us have watched FS for years under 6.0.. I've followed FS since 1960. I don't have to be a skater to have watched and recognized which skaters have tried to advance the sport and degree of difficulty. I'm sorry we can't all go back to figures which I assume would just give some fans a ray of hope. It's CoP now.

[adrianchew]

"Trying" what?
...
Ah, there goes the bringing down of skaters (no doubt MK) to prop up others.
Pot, kettle, all black really in reality. :roll:

[phoenixxx]

Ah...there's a big difference between criticizing a person's skating and a person's character.

And it was a legit question. She said Sasha "tries" when she falls. This statement would make sense if she did uber-difficult entrances into her jumps a la Arakawa. Or she fell attempting 3-3s. But from what I gathered at Marshalls she didn't. So it negates any of the "trying". She fell attempting basic triples with minimal degree of difficulty setting up the jumps, and about 98% ladies skaters do that these days. I guess they should all be commended for "trying" when they fall.

[Mariadonna]

Sasha is beautiful on the ice. Her spins and laybacks far exceed any other American women skaters. Her falls bother me but I'm hoping it stops. If it doesn't the Japanese and Russians will always be ahead. Good luck Sasha.

[bunghodog]

Shizuka's entrances are much harder then Irina's but it seems lately Shizuka is having some trouble, so if she can not land her jumps the entrances wont matter. As in Sasha's gorgeous layback it won't help her if she can not stay on her feet. I guess what I am saying a skater like Michelle or Irina who can land all there jumps clean and not cheated will come out on top if the other skaters like shiz or ando are not perfect. Now a perfect Shiz like at last years Worlds would be on the podium(possibly gold).

[Mariadonna]

Bull, I agree about Sasha, she must stay on her feet. However, Kwan is not on Arakawa's level of skating at all. Arkawa is a far greater technition and so is Irena. Kwan may have beaten Irena in the past but that was years ago. Irena progressed. Kwan has regressed.

[magicladi]

Bull, I agree about Sasha, she must stay on her feet. However, Kwan is not on Arakawa's level of skating at all. Arkawa is a far greater technition and so is Irena. Kwan may have beaten Irena in the past but that was years ago. Irena progressed. Kwan has regressed.

Actually Kwan's basic skating skills surpass Arakawa's. Her edges are cleaner, her spirals are more extended. Kwan does not have the back flexibility that Arakawa or Cohen does, but flexibility isn't the only thing.

I could really care less if you've watched figure skating since 1960. So have I. I was glad when they did away with figures because skaters who were great at figures weren't all that great in their programs yet they still won.

Yep, it's "COP baby", and to me that should even everything out. Just admit it. You don't like Kwan. You never have. That's fine by me. But fortunately for me, I like to watch them all, some more than others. And I think each and every one of them gets an "A" for trying to do anything on the ice. It's unfortunate that you can't see it that way. Must be difficult watching Kwan skate when she "bores" you so much. I've never felt that way about a skater because, overall, I love figure skating.

BTW, the only technical part of Arakawa's program that has outscored anyone has been her jump sequences. And right now it looks like she's having a few problems herself.

[adrianchew]

Ah...there's a big difference between criticizing a person's skating and a person's character.I believe that other poster mentioned "empty programs and no degree of difficulty". I don't agree with that comment about no degree of difficulty, but certainly that's a valid criticism of a skater's skating.

She said Sasha "tries" when she falls. This statement would make sense if she did uber-difficult entrances into her jumps a la Arakawa. Or she fell attempting 3-3s. But from what I gathered at Marshalls she didn't. So it negates any of the "trying".But she did attempt what she planned for the program... she fell attempting triples. How many times have you seen Kwan doubling her jumps?... that's not "trying" - that's chickening out of triples!

So I stand by what I say - if you can't be objective - just like that other poster wasn't about Michelle's skating - pot, kettle, both black. And by that comment I was referring to the skating comments made by both sides - neither one is being objective - but then again, I suppose that's something to be expected with crazy over the top uber-fans of both these skaters. ;)

[phoenixxx]

How convenient that you left out the part where she mentioned "arrogant", which funnily enough was in the same sentence as the "empty program and minimal degree of difficulty" that you quoted. But hey, whatever works for you to get your point across.

And where in my post where I wasn't being being objective? Nowhere in my post did I even come close to praising a certain skater while bringing another down. And nothing I said was indicative of me being a Kwan fan. All I was trying to understand was what she meant when she said Sasha "tries" when she falls.

Yeah, I agree. Doubling jumps are chickening out. But I'm not gonna commend a skater for falling on a jump when nothing really difficult preceded it, or while they were attempting basic triple jumps. That's like "moral victories" in sport. Saying, "Hey, good job. Even though you didn't win, you gave a good effort. You exceeded our expectations, but it wasn't good enough." It means diddly squat....and it doesn't make the athlete/team feel better.

But I guess if you choose to interpret posts a certain way (where everybody has a hidden agenda to make their favorite skaters look better), there's nothing really I can do about it.

[bunghodog]

I agree about Kwan, I am a big fan of the kween but Bolero's just not going to cut it.

[loveskating]

I did not see Marshalls, but I've never seen Michelle do anythiing but steps into her flip, which are required, and lutz; meantime, Sasha routinely does Ina Bauer into 2 axel, or 3 sal; serpentine footwork into flip and 2 axel; Irina routinely does 3 turn into loop; Sarah did 3 turn into loop and spiral into 3 jump and so do others, like Arakawa!

I bet a nickle we will NEVER see Kwan do anything remotely like that!

Kwan's basic skills are excellent, but not great, her edging is not nearly as good as Katia Gordeeva, or even Shae Lynn Borne (who by the way, I apologize to for every bad thing I ever said about her...as a pro, she is an amazing skater and a great, truly great expressive artist), not to mention Pasha Grishuk, or IRINA SLUTSKAYA!

Kwan's COE spiral and her split falling leaf are in the "great" category, but nothing else IMHO.

Level 3 SPINS? Her spins are so slow I find them sometimes to be excruciating. All the facial angst in the world can't cover that up!

[Kemy]

Hmmm...At Marshall's Michelle tried different spin combos, with maybe 1 being a definite level 2 and the rest level 1's. Her footwork was maybe a level 2 max, since she did multiple twizzles on both feet and several brackets and turns in both directions. The only spin I remember being excruciatingly slow was her layback that had been immediately preceded by her 2Axel attempt which has a standstill landing, providing no flow into the spin.

Her camel seemed to be faster and she changed her edge. The sit-spin position in her combo spin had a difficult position with the outstretched leg being underneath her spinning leg, but as soon as she hit that position her speed slowed considerably. It'd still probably be a level 2, but she wouldn't receive +GOE's for it. She held out COE spiral longer to hold the outside edge more, but the other two spirals were abbreviated. This would be a level 2/3 probably. I think her sitspin also had a different position, but not enough to warrant a higher level.

At least she's adding stuff to her program, and not taking stuff out.

I haven't studied Sasha's program yet because I watched it the first time and wasn't ina hurry to watch it again. NOT because I didn't like it, but I hate it when she falls like that. I do remember she had a very nice catchfoot layback in her combo spin and that some of the choreography was changed.

I'm disappointed after waiting to catch a glimpse of Michelle and Sasha's COP ready programs. Michelle had boot problems of some sort and skated tentatively and Sasha just recovered from her back strain. Both programs seem to have a ways to go and now I'll have to wait until Nationals to see both...which is already nervewracking enough. I don't think we've ever had to wonder if these two skaters would be ready, but I think this year will have the most questions going into Nationals.

[Meredith]

Kwan's basic skills are excellent, but not great, her edging is not nearly as good as Katia Gordeeva, or even Shae Lynn Borne (who by the way, I apologize to for every bad thing I ever said about her...as a pro, she is an amazing skater and a great, truly great expressive artist), not to mention Pasha Grishuk, or IRINA SLUTSKAYA!

Kwan's COE spiral and her split falling leaf are in the "great" category, but nothing else IMHO.
I hate that the ISU seems to be gunning for specific skaters who may, after skating the better part of their lives, just want a break from competition for a time. It reminds me of the ISU's position following the 1998 Olympics, threatening seeded skaters with their eligibility if they took part in pro-am events but not the Grand Prix. I disagreed with their actions then (and kudos to the skaters who did not cave in to them); I disagree with them now.

loveskating, I don't know why you said anything bad about Shae Lynn Bourne in the past. Did you, perchance, think you knew more about skating than she?

As for Michelle Kwan, I think her record speaks for itself.

Meredith, who sure as heck can't do what they do (can you?)

[magicladi]

Kwan's basic skills are excellent, but not great, her edging is not nearly as good as Katia Gordeeva, or even Shae Lynn Borne (who by the way, I apologize to for every bad thing I ever said about her...as a pro, she is an amazing skater and a great, truly great expressive artist), not to mention Pasha Grishuk, or IRINA SLUTSKAYA!

Since I wasn't comparing Kwan to Gordeeva or Bourne or Grishuk, that's pretty sad to even bring them in when they aren't competing, loveskating. However, having seen the deep markings left on ice by Kwan's edging AND asking someone else (not Kwan) how they get like that, I was informed that is what edges look like when they are performed exceptionally well. I did not compare her to Irina although I think she and Irina are comparable in their edging capabilities. I compared her to Arakawa.

Oh well, it doesn't matter anyway. I think what I think and you think what you think. No big deal! Just a major difference of opinion! :lol:

[Schmeck]

3-turns into the loop jump can actually make the jump easier for some skaters. The best skating coach at our rink (she's a super technician, you can tell her studens from all the rest right away) showed me how it sets up the jump.

At Marshall's, Sasha had one unique entry for a jump, but I don't think she landed it. She didn't do the ina bauer entry. She dropped it for something more simple.

No matter what entry Sarah used for her jumps, she almost always finished the last 1/4 of the turn on the ice. I think she'd get slaughtered with CoP.

[shadymc]

I just don't see why so many people feel the skaters should just be entitled to do whatever the heck they want and not pay attention to the ISU and yet be able to skate in ISU events. That makes no sense to me.

What makes no sense is to have a competition listed as an "invitational", giving skaters a choice whether to accept or decline their invitations and then threaten to punish them for not making the choice the ISU wants. Either make participation mandatory or get off the skaters' backs for exercising their rights. Any other option than these two is just game playing.

[Kemy]

3-turns into the loop jump can actually make the jump easier for some skaters. The best skating coach at our rink (she's a super technician, you can tell her studens from all the rest right away) showed me how it sets up the jump.

At Marshall's, Sasha had one unique entry for a jump, but I don't think she landed it. She didn't do the ina bauer entry. She dropped it for something more simple.

No matter what entry Sarah used for her jumps, she almost always finished the last 1/4 of the turn on the ice. I think she'd get slaughtered with CoP.
3-turns are still considered difficult. It's the same with difficulty in the actual jumps. The consensus is the the 3 lutz is harder than a 3 toe, and yet some find the 3 toe more difficult.

I don't consider a catchfoot spiral into a 3 Salchow to be easier than an ina bauer. I would think that it'd be more difficult.

[icedancer2]

3-turns are still considered difficult. It's the same with difficulty in the actual jumps. The consensus is the the 3 lutz is harder than a 3 toe, and yet some find the 3 toe more difficult.

I don't consider a catchfoot spiral into a 3 Salchow to be easier than an ina bauer. I would think that it'd be more difficult.

I also think there is a difference between ONE three-turn into a loop jump and a series of running 3s, front-back, back-front, front-back, on one foot into the loop. I would think that would be a harder entrance than the "normal" loop entrance.

(icedancer2, who could at one time do one 3-turn into a single loop, but would never consider running three-turns into a multi-revolution jump herself)

[Kemy]

I also think there is a difference between ONE three-turn into a loop jump and a series of running 3s, front-back, back-front, front-back, on one foot into the loop. I would think that would be a harder entrance than the "normal" loop entrance.

(icedancer2, who could at one time do one 3-turn into a single loop, but would never consider running three-turns into a multi-revolution jump herself)

Sorry...I was thinking more along the lines of the running-3's ala Irina and not the single-3 ala Michelle. I would think that the amount of time between Michelle's "3-turn" and the loop nullifies the added difficulty of doing it.

[loveskating]

3-turns into the loop jump can actually make the jump easier for some skaters. The best skating coach at our rink (she's a super technician, you can tell her studens from all the rest right away) showed me how it sets up the jump.

At Marshall's, Sasha had one unique entry for a jump, but I don't think she landed it. She didn't do the ina bauer entry. She dropped it for something more simple.

No matter what entry Sarah used for her jumps, she almost always finished the last 1/4 of the turn on the ice. I think she'd get slaughtered with CoP.

Just becasue a lutz is easier for Michael Weiss than a 3 axel is, that does not objectively make the lutz an easier jump! THe ISU now has a fully public jump rating in the COP rules, which is posted. Anyone can go look. The 3 axel is considered a more difficult jump and has a higher base point than the lutz, period. Otherwise, people could go out there and do their favorite 3 jump throughout the program, like Elaine Zayak!

A 3 turn into a 3 loop is objectively extremely difficult, and Irina routinely does that. Sarah Hughes did it a number of times. Numerous other skaters, including Sasha, have very difficult and beautiful entries into their jumps, and Kwan simply does not, because she cannot. If she could, she would.

I agree, whomever said the Ina Bauer and Sarah's sprial were about the same is right...I would think that the spread eagle into anythign is the toughest because you need to maintain high speed on that spreadeagle but I don't know...I don't think the COP has mentioned those as to level of difficulty....

I only know that the jump then appears to come out of nowhere, and is thus far more beautiful and powerful, and that its hard because you need a certain amout of speed to rotate the jump (some more than others). I LOVE these difficult entries into the jumps, I think they have raised the level of the sport.

P.S. Sarah sometimes underrotated her jumps, not all the time.

[loveskating]

loveskating, I don't know why you said anything bad about Shae Lynn Bourne in the past. Did you, perchance, think you knew more about skating than she?

Meredith, who sure as heck can't do what they do (can you?)

No, I don't think so...however, Shae Lynn sure thought she knew who won more than the judges, and on more than one occasion. Me, I thought in 98 she was to one dimensional, too prim and proper, and I did not like their interpretation of River Dance.

I can't do what they can do, but I'm not blind, I can tell the difference between strokes, backward or forward, into a jump and an Ina Bauer into a jump or a spreadeagle into a jump. I can plainly see that Irina's jumps are HUGE, bigger up and over the ice than Sasha's or Kwan's.

If I couldn't I would not enjoy the sport...I'd just be helplessly hyped into some personality or the other, and for me, there are better places for that sort of thing ...I mean, what skater is as pleasing to see as Jude Law or Nicole Kidman?

I think the ISU is right...but I think that they need to establish this rule before they enforce it. Let everyone know, then if people break it, they know what they are doing.

[jpeach]

Don't know why you posted this, but thought I would respond.

From dictionary.com

of·ten ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôfn, fn, ôftn, f-)
adv. of·ten·er, of·ten·est
Many times; frequently.


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[Middle English, alteration (probably influenced by selden, seldom), of oft from Old English. See upo in Indo-European Roots.]
Usage Note: During the 15th century English experienced a widespread loss of certain consonant sounds within consonant clusters, as the (d) in handsome and handkerchief, the (p) in consumption and raspberry, and the (t) in chestnut and often. In this way the consonant clusters were simplified and made easier to articulate. With the rise of public education and literacy and, consequently, people's awareness of spelling in the 19th century, sounds that had become silent sometimes were restored, as is the case with the t in often, which is now frequently pronounced. In other similar words, such as soften and listen, the t generally remains silent.

Also, "irregardless", while technically incorrect, has found it's way into casual speech. You can find it listed on dictionary.com too.

Gotta admit I'm an English major and this stuff drives me nuts.

You are right that "technically incorrect" words are finding their way into casual speech. That's why "often" is listed in dictionary.com with the 't' sound acceptable. Ditto "irregardless." Ditto the 'h' in "human." Usually "human" is pronounced "uman." Well, it used to be before everybody *******ized it.

OK, back on topic: the ISU is running scared and doing the bully bit in a list-ditch effort to save TV ratings, and thus continue to line their pockets. They are too short-sighted (or refuse to see at all or care for that matter) that forcing the athletes to participate is/can be detrimental to their health and may cause the popular ones, i.e. the one who pull in the viewers, to just quit the circuit.

[sk8er1964]

Gotta admit I'm an English major and this stuff drives me nuts.

You are right that "technically incorrect" words are finding their way into casual speech. That's why "often" is listed in dictionary.com with the 't' sound acceptable. Ditto "irregardless." Ditto the 'h' in "human." Usually "human" is pronounced "uman." Well, it used to be before everybody *******ized it.



I know this is still off topic, but I can't help it. Maybe this is a regional or nationality thing - because I can't remember having heard often pronounced without the "t" or human pronounced without the "h" in my area (I think I might have in other countries). Now, I have heard "an historical" and "a historical" both used, which seems to show that the "h" may have been silent at some time in history.

Isn't English, especially with all its forms, a funny language?

OK, sorry folks - go back on topic. :oops: