Will COP bring back the skating audience?

[Peter_K]

After watching the mens' long program at SC, it occurred to me that one of the side-effects of the COP system is that it is now quite possible for a skater to come from behind and win it all.

Now don't think like a skating fan/enthusiast/expert here. Put yourself in the mind of the average Joe/Jane watching sports on TV. (you know, the kind that is still expecting Elvis to be in the competition)

The biggest complaint I've heard from non-skating fans about the sport is the judging. Scandals aside, the ordinal system has the impression of being entirely arbitrary and somewhat elitest. The average fan, especially looking at dance, is left with the feeling that they might as well be watching professional wrestling where at least there is no pretenses about the outcome being predetermined.

COP has the potential, for those not in the know, of turning skating into a real sport where the outcome may not be foregone conclusion.

It may take a while to win people back, but it certainly seems like a step in the right direction.

--Peter

[LTM]

I tend to agree with you Peter.
People who like competitions want to see competition not Stars on Ice with medals handed out at the end.
But we'll have to wait til the next Olympics (when spectator interest is higher) to see what happens

[Sk8n Mama]

I think it's too early to say. My husband watches every once in a while. He won't watch dance because of the problems in dance judging. He said that he likes that there are no more 'factored placings'. He said he likes that someone who runs away with the freeskate with CoP has the chance to win. I think of the time that Elvis blew the short (I think we were in Edmonton) then gave one heck of a freeskate but had no chance at all to win. It's kind of nice that they can win. I think wooing back fans will happen if the right people win at the Olympics. Unfortunately, I think CoP might be more confusing for lay skating fans because they don't know the importance of spins and field moves, they don't know what a layback or an ina bauer should be like. I do hope that CoP will make sure that dancers can't trip in the OD and still be in the top group.

[Peter_K]

I tend to stay away from dance for exactly the same reason. It's not that I don't enjoy or appreciate the discipline, (although I wish there was more "dancing" rather than "posing" in free dance but that's just me) but considering how the marks usually wind up, they might as well just mail it in.

Where's the sport in that?

Now looking at the SC results, it seems that it's no longer the case that the standing don't change after the compulsory dance. That just might make me pay more attention to dance. I haven't even bothered to look at the skate canada dance coverage from Sunday. I think I might actually bother.

Yes, the scoring system is difficult to grasp, but I think the COP is a better idea for the sport than most of us thought at first. You are right, that the Olympics will certainly be the acid test for all this.

Well, nobody said it would be a boring ride. :)

--Peter

[Tamwheel]

After watching the mens' long program at SC, it occurred to me that one of the side-effects of the COP system is that it is now quite possible for a skater to come from behind and win it all.



COP has the potential, for those not in the know, of turning skating into a real sport where the outcome may not be foregone conclusion.



--Peter

I have the opposite take on COP and OBO. It my opinion, it will make the FINAL results far less changing and makes it easier to hold up champions. Singles has now become more like ice dance with reliable factors such guaranteeing certain amounts of points no matter the pefromance based on "quality of skating."

Skaters like Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen are pretty much guaranteed to get points and bonuses that would hold up their scores even with substantial errors and falls. And because it doesn't matter what your placement is, only your scores, it would be possible to come back from way way behind. Gone are the days when a gold was lost in the short because a skater finished 4th with a clean program.

I doubt Shizuka could have won last year because Sasha's bonuses would have held her up even with all the numerous errors. That's just wrong and even less sportlike than it was before. But remember Ice dance? You could fall and your overall quality would still keep you ahead of similar clean teams. Falls didn't cost them much until recently. Plus, skaters are given credit for ATTMPTING jumps, -3 for falls, so it's worth a fall or two or three because it's still adding to your point totals????

Now You'll likely to see a situation similar to ice dance with very little change from year to year in final results when the FINAL results are talleyed.

[Alexa]

I have the opposite take on COP and OBO. It my opinion, it will make the FINAL results far less changing and makes it easier to hold up champions. Singles has now become more like ice dance with reliable factors such guaranteeing certain amounts of points no matter the pefromance based on "quality of skating."

Skaters like Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen are pretty much guaranteed to get points and bonuses that would hold up their scores even with substantial errors and falls. And because it doesn't matter what your placement is, only your scores, it would be possible to come back from way way behind. Gone are the days when a gold was lost in the short because a skater finished 4th with a clean program.

I doubt Shizuka could have won last year because Sasha's bonuses would have held her up even with all the numerous errors. That's just wrong and even less sportlike than it was before. But remember Ice dance? You could fall and your overall quality would still keep you ahead of similar clean teams. Falls didn't cost them much until recently. Plus, skaters are given credit for ATTMPTING jumps, -3 for falls, so it's worth a fall or two or three because it's still adding to your point totals????

Now You'll likely to see a situation similar to ice dance with very little change from year to year in final results when the FINAL results are talleyed.

I have to agree with you on some points. Originally I liked the COP and still do in many ways, but what I don't like is what you described. It just seems like the skaters can have more than one fall and still win. I completely appreciate what the skater does between jumps, so I do like that the COP rewards that, but I get the feeling that even the skaters do not mind having a fall in their program anymore. Because they can still win.

Now maybe that will change if more skaters will have clean programs in the upcoming competitions--if that happens I will have a better idea of who the COP is rewarding. But for right now it just seems like falls have become accepted by the judges and the skaters. And for me, that just seems wrong because we have seen some really good competitions in years past, where skaters knew they had to be clean and consistent in their entire program to win (with a few exceptions).

As for bringing the audience back---I don't think the COP will turn people away, but it will make them not understand the scoring if a skater wins despite having more than one fall in the program.

[RobinA]

First of all, I have no idea why people think that CoP will not allow judges to hold up skaters. To me it seems just as possible as it ever was, although I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Second, I don't understand why people say it takes away the disadvantage of skating early. I don't see how this would be so, the judging is just as subjective as it always was, it just gives the viewer a facade of objectivity by drowning him/her in numbers.

Personally, I think it will drive casual viewers away. All those numbers don't mean a thing until Peter or Terry or somebody interprets them for the viewer. What's left is simply a "Who's in first?" kind of mentality. You have no idea watching what the judges think of an individual program. Useta be if somebody got a 5.9, you knew the judges liked it and it was going to be hard to beat. Now, you have no idea if the judges liked it or not when 123.564748563 flashes up. What other sport gives you scores that relate in no immediately understandable way to what the viewer just saw?

On the good side, I do think that CoP has made a little less skate, skate, jump. I'm getting mixed messages on whether it reduces the importance of jumps, which I htink would be a good thing.

Ban the Quad!

[Lise]

Diving is like that-they use points and until you see the scores, you have no idea who the leader is until the end of the rotation.

I like the fact that it forces skaters to be well rounded, that each element is important. I also like the fact that a competition is not over when you see the entry list and I'm happy to see movement in all disciplines. This season has been very difficult to predic and very exciting!!

Lise

[Tamwheel]

Are you talking about GPs last year? Sasha had no more errors than her competition, and she is a better skater than her competition. But since you talk about Shizuka winning, I assume you mean Worlds, a competition at which Sasha had ONE error, not numerous errors.

Now, Michelle hasn't skated in CoP yet so we don't know how it will treat her, but maybe the reason Sasha remains high even with a mistake or two is because she is better at the other things and THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.


In the GP before the final, Sasha bulit up HUGE leads in point totals over all her other competitors. She could literally have fallen 3-4 times in the free programs and still won.

As for worlds: take off the blinkers! Sasha had more than ONE error. One major error on the Salchow which wasn't completed, the first flutz (of two) wasn't even cleanly landed on an inside edge. All are deductible technical errors. How any judge even on the 6.0 system could place that over Arakawa's 7 triple, 2 3-3 combo program with superior edge quality is simply incomprehensible! But I think Sasha could possibly have won if COP was in place. Why? it's all about BONUS points. They could make up for numerous falls. Do a spiral the judges like = Erase fall.

Sasha' edge quality is certainly not better than Arakawa and not significantly better than any of the other top competitiors. I mean EDGE QUALITY is the basis of what the whole sport is supposed to be about. She certainly picks up bonus points for creativity like the charlotte and her spins but they shouldn't be allowed to make up for the lack of seriously difficult triple-triple jump combinations and errors which she always commits in major competition.

[LittleBitSk8er]

First of all, I have no idea why people think that CoP will not allow judges to hold up skaters. To me it seems just as possible as it ever was, although I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing. Second, I don't understand why people say it takes away the disadvantage of skating early. I don't see how this would be so, the judging is just as subjective as it always was, it just gives the viewer a facade of objectivity by drowning him/her in numbers...................On the good side, I do think that CoP has made a little less skate, skate, jump. I'm getting mixed messages on whether it reduces the importance of jumps, which I htink would be a good thing.

Ban the Quad!
Judging is subjective, and all skaters are subjected to each of the judges’ personal opinion. However, I do agree with you about the quad. Does skating really need a jump like that? I do not think so. I do not think the quad is worth the risk it involves for skaters. It is like Scott’s back flip, many skaters can do it but it is not allowed in competition.