Questions about Cynthia's win...

[Alexa]

Did the other women have falls as well? I am just curious as I read that Cynthia had two falls and still won the competition.

I know the men had a similar situation at SA, and I can appreciate the COP taking into account other elements, but it just seems strange for so many skaters to be placed high with more than one fall in their program.

I have not seen any of SC yet, so I have no idea--just wondering what people thought about the Ladies programs overall and if Cynthia deserved the win.

[Peter_K]

This was dissected at length in another board but basically, Cynthia did fall and was deducted points for them but still came out on top.

If I recall correctly, she was still able to get all her planned elements done.

Keep in mind, falling in and of itself doesn't really do you in. (with the possible exception of ice dancing but that gets into a whole different argument) I guess what it comes down to isn't the fall, but how you're able to recover from it.

--Peter

[Alexa]

Keep in mind, falling in and of itself doesn't really do you in. (with the possible exception of ice dancing but that gets into a whole different argument) I guess what it comes down to isn't the fall, but how you're able to recover from it.

--Peter

I realize that, but I would hate for figure skating to become a sport where falling on a jump is "okay", and you can still win consistently despite the falls. I realize in some competitions that it so happens that many people have falls, so the winner can have a less than perfect program. But I do think the falls take away from the overall feeling of the program.

I realize it is early in the season, but I wish more skaters were doing cleaner programs. I don't remember seeing so many competitions in years past where so many skaters were not completing their jumps. So far we have had Campbell's, Skate America, and Skate Canada--and in each of those competitions there were many jump problems among the skaters.

I think the COP is a positive thing in that it give the skaters credit for other things besides jumps, but that should not be an excuse for the skaters to not be more consistent on their jumps.

[tripletoesrule]

Yes she fell... but it's because when they choreographed her program they made it difficult enough to make room for a few falls. She's a beautiful skater and her inbetweens are high and difficult enough to put her on top. She only missed one major jump: a triple lutz, then missed a triple sow which isn't really as important as if say she missed a lutz and a flip... orboth her lutz' she'd be down. Cynthia is so great! Best of luck to her. And yes she deserved to win.

[Alexa]

Yes she fell... but it's because when they choreographed her program they made it difficult enough to make room for a few falls.

But I think that is completely wrong...a skater and their coach should never design a program to "make room for a few falls". If that is the future of figure skating, that is a scary thing. They should focus on helping the skater be consistent in everything--including jumps.

I am not one that thinks that skaters need to kill themselves to keep trying to do more difficult jumps, or to focus only on jumps, but it is important to put together a clean program.

And I am not picking on Cynthia--I am sure she did earn her win. I am just saying that I hope the skaters start having cleaner programs as the season goes on, and that falls will not be the norm.

[Lise]

I get your point as well, but I think her goal was to get 5 clean triples. Cynthia has been struggling for the past few months due to her growth spurt-she lost her jumps over the summer. To think that a few months later, she' s made the GPF, it's incredible. I think by the time GPF and Nationals roll around, we'll be seeing 6-7 triples in her program. She simply needs more time to adjust to her new centre of gravity.

Lise

[LTM]

I don't know 5 out 7 planned jumps with her closest competitor also completing "only" 5 clean triples????
I'm glad to see other elements getting the respect they weren't getting in the old ordinal system. Makes for far more interesting and difficult over all programs instead of just a jumping bean contest.
And please keep in mind, it's total points now. Phaneuf
racked up an impressive point total in the SP, which was clean.
And programs have always been designed strategically
(I'm thinking of programs with the skaters weaker elements placed as far from the judges as they could be,
for example)
Strategy just changed now.
And are we really wanting to see a clean skate with lower difficulty win over a more difficult skate that had a couple of falls.
How does that encourage skaters to do anything but what's safe for them?

[Alexa]

I get your point as well, but I think her goal was to get 5 clean triples. Cynthia has been struggling for the past few months due to her growth spurt-she lost her jumps over the summer. To think that a few months later, she' s made the GPF, it's incredible. I think by the time GPF and Nationals roll around, we'll be seeing 6-7 triples in her program. She simply needs more time to adjust to her new centre of gravity.

Lise

That is great, and I am happy for her.

And are we really wanting to see a clean skate with lower difficulty win over a more difficult skate that had a couple of falls.

LTM--That is not what I was asking for nor did I have a problem with Cynthia's win based on what I have heard about the competition. I was simply making the point that so far the competitions have not had a lot of clean skates, and usually it seems like there is more of them. That comment is not directed at Cynthia--it is a general comment.

[Marg2]

One of the commentators of a few years back said that before the first competition that he covered he thought that the point of ladies' figure skating was "to skate pretty and not fall down".
He was dumbfounded when a skater (Midori Ito) fell twice and still won. (He said he had learned a lot since then.)

IMO, Cynthia had enough difficulty and enough extra jumps that the two falls were almost irrelevant.

[annkirstin]

I forget what the title spoiler policy is in this section of the forum, but I came here before I saw SC coverage and saw this thread title. Can I make a friendly request to keep spoilers out of titles?

[doubletoe]

No skater ever plans to fall in competition and no skater ever puts a jump in that he/she can't do. I'm sure Cynthia can do a triple salchow in her sleep, so she certainly wasn't expecting to fall on that. Still, skaters and coaches also know that in a long program, the judges basically give credit for the elements you complete rather than deducting for elements you don't complete. So the only way to win is to pack your program with difficult elements, then do your best to complete them.

[sk8lvr]

I'm with Alexa on this one. While I am happy for Cynthia's surprising wins, I am concerned that clean programs will not get any reward.

I know COP is about highest compiled score, but there are deductions for falls right?

I'm very happy that spins and footwork are finally being rewarded. But I would hope for a balance between trying jumps that you can't do but still receive credit for the effort and doing what you are capable of. (I'm not referring to Cynthia here btw).

I'm very concerned about the direction COP is taking us.

[TRAxel]

There have been numerous skaters in the past who won competitions WITH falls also...I don't think COP has changed things THAT much... I love the fact that skating now gets focused for a heck of a lot more than just jumps (JMHO)

[loveskating]

Merely clean programs without the competive level of difficulty have NEVER been rewarded.

Look at even Naomi Nari Nam at US Nationals in 1999...she skated clean, was electrifying, but had no lutz at all, not to mention a lutz combo, so even though Kwan fell (on second lutz), Kwan won, and rightly so by the RULES.

I too love the COP because it does reward something besides jumps...it rewards creativity even!

[Alexa]

Since I am one of the few in the thread that expressed concern about falls, I will try to make my point one more time....

I appreciate that the COP rewards other things than just jumps. That is great.

This may have nothing to with the COP, or it may have something to do with it-- But what I don't like this season, especially early on is that the majority of the skaters were failing to have clean programs and falling on more than one jump in many cases.

Even though it was the beginning of the season, I don't remember such a lack of clean programs, and that is what was bothering me.

Now that we have had some skaters have a relatively clean program I feel a little better about the season. I like that we are seeing new skaters and also seeing older skaters try new things. I do think it will be helpful when we see Kwan, Cohen, and Plushenko competing against the other skaters because I think that they help the other skaters fight for a clean program in order to be competitive.

No matter how much the COP rewards skaters for other things than jumps, it does not make up for a competition filled with programs that are not clean. Most viewers, and even the skaters themselves, don't feel as good about the results if the person that won did not have a clean program. Especially more casual viewers who would not understand how someone could win after falling in their program.

[pairs_guy]

But that is because of the mentality of the sport, it shouldn't be who skates clean or who has the most quads, it's about the whole package. If someone lands all their jumps but doesn't know how to skate, I would rather see someone who maybe missed a jump or two but looks like a skater win. That is what is good with this new system. The right skaters are winning.

[singerskates]

No matter how much the COP rewards skaters for other things than jumps, it does not make up for a competition filled with programs that are not clean. Most viewers, and even the skaters themselves, don't feel as good about the results if the person that won did not have a clean program. Especially more casual viewers who would not understand how someone could win after falling in their program.

How would you know if skaters don't feel good about the results of a win where there are falls? Are you a skater? You may be a viewer but skaters are human not machines. Mistakes happen. Falls happen. Viewers have no idea what it takes to put together a program and make it work. You have your jumps out of the program but going from particular steps or other elements into the jumps can through you off sometimes. Also, ice conditions, where someone dug in with their toe pick before you on a toe jump and so on can affect your jumps in a program. If you haven't tried figure skating for yourself and what's more competing in figure skating, don't criticize skaters who fall on jumps even when they win the gold medal in their event.

[Alexa]

How would you know if skaters don't feel good about the results of a win where there are falls? Are you a skater? You may be a viewer but skaters are human not machines. Mistakes happen. Falls happen. Viewers have no idea what it takes to put together a program and make it work. You have your jumps out of the program but going from particular steps or other elements into the jumps can through you off sometimes. Also, ice conditions, where someone dug in with their toe pick before you on a toe jump and so on can affect your jumps in a program. If you haven't tried figure skating for yourself and what's more competing in figure skating, don't criticize skaters who fall on jumps even when they win the gold medal in their event.

I am very aware that falls can happen. I have also seen enough skating competitions to know that skaters rarely feel good about falling in a program. I have seen some skaters surprised that they even won after doing so. Sure they are happy about the win, but they usually appear to wish they had done it with a clean program.

I am at the point where I am sorry that I even brought up this topic. If the majority of viewers are happy with numerous skaters not having clean programs, that is fine with me. Heck, if the skaters are happy with that, that is fine with me.

I was just expressing the point that there were very few clean programs early in this season. That was where my disappointment was. Now that there is a bit more competition and some skaters have had some good, clean programs I think the season is getting a bit better.

[edges1]

I was just expressing the point that there were very few clean programs early in this season. That was where my disappointment was.

Why would you expect clean programs in late October ??? Skaters do train to peak at this time of year. They train to peak in January for nationals and then in March. If you think skaters are going to do clean programs in October then you obviously don't know much about the sport. :roll:

[Alexa]

Why would you expect clean programs in late October ??? Skaters do train to peak at this time of year. They train to peak in January for nationals and then in March. If you think skaters are going to do clean programs in October then you obviously don't know much about the sport. :roll:

I have watched skating for many years, and I have never seen so many flawed programs early in the season as this one. Perhaps that is just my perception, but to give an example, many of the wins at Skate America and Skate Canada in the past have been won with relatively clean programs.

And to use a few skaters as examples, previous skaters had clean programs all season....Michelle Kwan in her prime rarely had a fall, Todd Eldredge in his best years rarely had a fall, Plushenko and Yagudin have always been consistent throughout the year (with the exception of injuries).

So, yes, I stand by my statement that many skaters have had clean programs in the beginning of the season in the past years.

That is really all I have to say on this point. I will have to agree to disagree.

[sk8lvr]

Alexa, I completely understand where you're coming from. I guess I need to go back and look at previous GPs but I don't remember winners having such flawed performances. The only think I can chalk it up to is the fact that many top skaters weren't there. We've been spoiled in years past by seeing a few consistent skaters in almost every event. (I think of Kwan at SA for so many years). I have been heartened by watching the last few events and seeing better performances. That could be attributed to seeing Slutskaya, Weir and Plushenko as opposed to less experienced skaters.